Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#91

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 8:50 am

Since this thread was transformed by two very foolish Ismailis into Ismailis vs fayyaaz thread with a little help from Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his boot-licker SBM, here is a relevant input:

"Pakistan gunmen kill 45 on Karachi Ismaili Shia bus"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3271 ... rial_link1

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#92

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 9:13 am

My initial comment on this thread was that in the struggle for the 'soul of Islam' which is taking place between Orthodox Islam and Radical Islam, Aga Khan and Bohra Dai are not contenders. Majority Shias, Ithnaasharis, will be concerned with maintaining their regional power bases mainly in Iran and Iraq.

Javedhuma flew off into defending Aga Khan's Islamic credentials by insisting he engages in "Muslim worship". He offered evidence by way of a photo of 7 year old Aga Khan purportedly leading Ismailis in a "Muslim" prayer. It was not clear from photograph if it was a "Muslim" prayer. So I asked him to provide a "more recent" (in last 25 years) photo of Aga Khan offering a "Muslim" prayer. He could not do that and instead he flew off at a tangent accusing me of all sorts unflattering attributes like being miserable etc.

Yazid-loving Wahhabi came to his defence by pointing out that I was a pretend atheist, idol-worshiping, Muffy-ass kissing, narcissist. He fell in with those whom he constantly and rabidly accuses of being idol-worshipers. The rest is history.

SBM wants me to defend atheism. Atheism is absence of belief in God. There is no belief there to defend. What a bunch of morons!

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#93

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 13, 2015 9:43 am

circ du soleil anyone? :wink:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#94

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 2:17 pm

anajmi wrote:circ du soleil anyone? :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#95

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 2:40 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Since this thread was transformed by two very foolish Ismailis into Ismailis vs fayyaaz thread with a little help from Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his boot-licker SBM, here is a relevant input:

"Pakistan gunmen kill 45 on Karachi Ismaili Shia bus"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3271 ... rial_link1
This proves you are an atheist because you do not fear God for talking like an imbecile. Your heart is like that of a stone. You live in a small world. Have you not heard of how many times Bohoras, Ithnas (repeatedly), Christians (repeatedly), Hindus and Ahmediyas (repeatedly), have been attacked and killed inside their masjids, churches and on public transportation?

What this attack proves that there are ignorant people like you in this world. Anybody (especially you) who rejoices at this, needs his brains checked. Even an atheist has a soft spot.

Since the attack, How many times in the news papers, including pakistani newspapers, people have condemned this attack and said that Ismailis are the most peaceful people. They are peaceful because the Prophet SAW was peaceful, but the West has presented him as a terrorist. Does that matter? It is an honor to be called peaceful people. Did you see how many government officials condemned the attack and cancelled their visits outside and inside pakistan. This shows the respect they have for the Ismaili community.

Why should we care what buburchucks like you say.

Government even proposed .5 million rupees for each Ismaili killed and .2 million rupees for each injured Ismaili.

You probably have not read those papers.

You can stew in your own juice. We don't even care.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#96

Unread post by Biradar » Wed May 13, 2015 2:59 pm

fayyaaz wrote:My initial comment on this thread was that in the struggle for the 'soul of Islam' which is taking place between Orthodox Islam and Radical Islam, Aga Khan and Bohra Dai are not contenders. Majority Shias, Ithnaasharis, will be concerned with maintaining their regional power bases mainly in Iran and Iraq.

Javedhuma flew off into defending Aga Khan's Islamic credentials by insisting he engages in "Muslim worship". He offered evidence by way of a photo of 7 year old Aga Khan purportedly leading Ismailis in a "Muslim" prayer. It was not clear from photograph if it was a "Muslim" prayer. So I asked him to provide a "more recent" (in last 25 years) photo of Aga Khan offering a "Muslim" prayer. He could not do that and instead he flew off at a tangent accusing me of all sorts unflattering attributes like being miserable etc.

Yazid-loving Wahhabi came to his defence by pointing out that I was a pretend atheist, idol-worshiping, Muffy-ass kissing, narcissist. He fell in with those whom he constantly and rabidly accuses of being idol-worshipers. The rest is history.

SBM wants me to defend atheism. Atheism is absence of belief in God. There is no belief there to defend. What a bunch of morons!
My friend fayyaaz, I really sometimes wonder at you. You seem to engage (and enrage!) the most crazy fanatics here. First, the Salafi-Wahabbi madman, and now the Aga Khan worshipping madman! I mean, come on, don't you have better things to do with your time? Arguing with madmen is like beating your head on a brick wall. Your head will break and bleed, but the wall will remain unmoved. I mean, you can not reason with bricks. They don't have any neurons.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#97

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 3:12 pm

Biradar wrote: Aga Khan worshipping madman

circ du soleil :D Thank you wahabi brother for this creation!


fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#99

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 3:19 pm

Biradar, my friend. I have seen the light. I will no longer directly engage with Aga Khan worshipers. I cannot say the same about the Yazid-loving Wahhabi moron because he is so much fun. I would dearly love to ignore him but my love for fun might get the better of me.

Did you read what the moron had to say about Ismailis?
anajmi wrote: ...why would I want to fight with the Ismailis? At least they are true to themselves. Besides, they have a right to believe anything they believe as long as they do not use violence.
Yet, Bohra abdes who are also true to themselves and not all that violent either will not be spared his Wahhabi self-righteous venom; bloody hypocrite. :roll:

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#100

Unread post by Biradar » Wed May 13, 2015 3:39 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Biradar, my friend. I have seen the light. I will no longer directly engage with Aga Khan worshipers. I cannot say the same about the Yazid-loving Wahhabi moron because he is so much fun. I would dearly love to ignore him but my love for fun might get the better of me.

Did you read what the moron had to say about Ismailis?
anajmi wrote: ...why would I want to fight with the Ismailis? At least they are true to themselves. Besides, they have a right to believe anything they believe as long as they do not use violence.
Yet, Bohra abdes who are also true to themselves and not all that violent either will not be spared his Wahhabi self-righteous venom; bloody hypocrite. :roll:
I don't see anything what the Salafi-Whabbi madman says. I have him on ignore. Improved my mental health significantly when I did that. But, now that I do see, it seems that he has no self-awareness at all, and, if we had an Irony Meter, it would explode. But, what else can one expect? 15 years have passed, with little impact.

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#101

Unread post by salim » Wed May 13, 2015 5:29 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
I have a cousin (a Bohra) who fell in love with an Ismaili boy and married him. She went through rigorous training to convert to Ismailism. I have several Ismail friends, some I grew up with. My cousin surpasses them all in her fanatical devotion to Aga Khan. In fact, she embarrases my Ismaili friends with her devotion.

Now this would be of interest to some of you. She has a habit of praying for all her relatives summoning Ali Allah's help. I asked her what she meant by Ali Allah. Did she mean Ali (son of Abu Talib) and Allah? She understands and believes that Ali and Allah are the same. I think she is mistaken but then that is her training. No muslim, not even Bohras, would consider Ali and Allah to be the same. Some Bohras may fall for their Dai's claim that he is God on Earth. But even they would not call their Dai Allah.
Are you sure your cousin is Nizari Ismaili? May be you are getting confused with Ali Ullah with Ali Allah. You should talk to your cousin and tell her that according to Ismailis you know off (on Dawoodi Bohr form), Ali Allah is wrong.

I hope you are not lying. I am born and bought up as Ismaili, and I have never heard an ismaili say that. I have heard of some shia sect this is there but not ismailis. I know people asking help from Ali. I know people even go to Aga Khan and ask for medicine to cure their health. But I have never heard of this.

Once someone went to Aga Khan asked him for medicine or holy water to cure her daughter, Aga Khan told him that, I am not a doctor, if you want to cure your body you better go and see a doctor.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#102

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 13, 2015 5:30 pm

biradar and fayyaaz,

Awww, why don't you two get a room? You guys can discuss me over breakfast about how one can't get enough of me and the how the other can't seem to ignore me. :mrgreen:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#103

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 5:54 pm

Salim,

I stand by what I wrote about my cousin. Can you comment on below taken from:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and ... faith.html

( I googled "Ali Allah")

Aga Khan introduces "Ali is truly Allah" as the Confession of Faith

Aga Khan was also successful in changing course of the religious path of the community. The Ithna'ashriyyah rites and rituals that his mother and grandfather had introduced in thecommunity were systematically thrown out by him. The jobs of the Shiah Maulvis were taken over by his close relatives and paid missionaries. Aga Khan introduced new theological concepts and sacred practices. Many of which attributed explicit divinity to Hazrat Ali, such as; reciting of "Ali is truly Allah" as an integral part of the Shahadah (Declaration of Faith), in their daily ritual prayers called Du'a. This was the beginning of the third and final proselytization in the history of the Khojah community. Today, Ismailis recite "Aliyyullah" in their ritual Du'a which translates; "Ali, the Allah".

Below are the faithful reproductions of the Arabic transliteration, the English translation and the Gujrati translation (transliterated) of the phrase "Aliyyullah", as they appears in the book of Ismaili Du'a, officially published by `The Shia Imami Ismailia Association for Africa, Kenya', 1963:-

The Arabic transliteration:
"La ilaha illallaha, Mohammedur-Rasoolullahi, Aliyyun Amirul-mu'mineen Aliyyullah:"

The English translation:
"There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, Ali, the master of the believers, is from Allah."

The Gujrati translation (transliterated) of the phrase "Aliyyullah":
Please note the words within the parantheses are NOT mine, they do appear in the book of Dua: "Allah mahthi chhe (ane te ejh chhe)"
which means; "Is from Allah (and is the same)
".

Here is a further clarification of the enigmatic phrase and its paradoxical translations:

The phrase "Aliyyullah" is a combination of two words. "Aliyyun" and "Allah". When these two words are joined together, the letter "n" becomes silent and the phrase is read as "Aliyyullah. The word "Aliyyun" translates "The Ali", and the word "Allah" translates "The God". Hence, the phrase "Aliyyullah" means "The Ali, The God". In the Ismaili terminology it signifies "The Aga Khan (The 49th Ali), The God".

The introduction of the innovated `Shahadah' in the Gujarati Du'a which declared "Ali, truly Allah", became the basis of a major division among the followers of Aga Khan. In 1901, a small group of reprimanded followers, who had been admonished by the Ithna'ashriyya Mullahs during their visitation of Karbala, approached the Aga Khan with a special request. These followers were advised by the Iraqi Mullahs that the worship of Ali or Aga Khan as an Incarnation, Manifestation and/or Associate of Allah (SWT) nullifies their prayers, voids their fasting, pilgrimages, zakah, etc., and the eternal hell would be their place of abode in the hereafter. The special request was to replace the enigmatic "Declaration of Faith" from the newly introduced Gujarati Du'a, with the one that declared Ali to be "the beloved of Allah" ("Ali-un-Wally-Allah"). Such a Declaration was professed by the rest of the Shiahs. The young Aga Khan was adamant and refused to amend or discard the "heretic" Declaration. He insisted, if the phrase that attributed "Divinity" to Ali (there by to himself, the 48th Ali) was to be discarded, then the entire Du'a should be throw out by his followers. The enlightened followers, having failed in their mission, decided to revert back to the original Ithna'ashriyya persuasion of their ancestors. A persuasion which was practised and professed by Aga Khan the first. The splinter group renounced the leadership of Aga Khan and established the Khojah Ithna'ashriyya Jama'at in Bombay. From there it spread to the rest of India and Africa. Due to this split many Khojah families in India and Africa were divided. They continue to remain so, until now. Today, Khojah Ismailis say; "Ithna'ashri Khojahs are the Dissidents." The Khojah Ithna'ashris say; "Ismaili Khojahs are the one who have abandoned the faith of their forefathers."

RITUALS:

Karim Aga khan resolves: "Imaam is the mazhar (image/copy) of God"The concepts of Nabuwah and Imamah:
"These concepts to be explained and understood in the general perspective of God's communication to man. The Imaam to be explained as the `mazhar' of God, related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."Note: The Arabic word `mazar' means image; copy. Karim Aga Khan thus became an image/copy of God by the above resolution.

The sprinkling of holy water upon the face of a dead Ismaili and forgiving of his/her sins is an important ritual called "Chhantas". The ceremony is usually carried out before the burial, by a religious leader (Mukhi) of the local Jamatkhana to which the individual belongs. When the deceased Aga Khan was alive he used to collect a small donation, sprinkle the holy water and forgive the sins of his spiritual followers.

At the age of seven, Prince Karim who feared darkness, lead the Eid Salat (ritual prayer) of the Jama'at in Nairobi, Kenya. It was a significant event for the followers. The vast majority of whom do not know how to recite the Islamic Salat. Agakhani Ismailis recite "Du'a" instead of the Islamic Salat, facing any direction, in their Jamatkhanas.

KA786110
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:20 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#104

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 13, 2015 6:46 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
Agakhani Ismailis recite "Du'a" instead of the Islamic Salat, facing any direction, in their Jamatkhanas.
There is no one Islamic Salat. There is Salat. Each Tariqah has has its own take/interpretation on how to offer prayers.

As for where to face during prayers:

To ALLAH belongs the East and the West; so whithersoever you turn, there will be the face of ALLAH … (2:115)

You see Ismailis faith (and generally Shias) is dynamic yet very true to the teachings of Holy Prophet(pbuh) and Allah's commandments.

Dear Nothingness: First find out yourself what you believe in then worry about other people's beliefs. You may think yourself very knowledgeable but your recent posts (parroting from other sites) are not original and are full of false conclusions.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#105

Unread post by SBM » Wed May 13, 2015 6:51 pm

Yet, Bohra abdes who are also true to themselves and not all that violent either
Really
Did you check lately with sons and daughters of SKQ or Taizoon Shakir or people of Udaipur?
May be they are not as violent as ISIL or TTP of Pakistan but NOT VIOLENT is a stretch...

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#106

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 7:14 pm

KA786110 wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:
Agakhani Ismailis recite "Du'a" instead of the Islamic Salat, facing any direction, in their Jamatkhanas.
There is no one Islamic Salat. There is Salat. Each Tariqah has has its own take/interpretation on how to offer prayers.

As for where to face during prayers:

To ALLAH belongs the East and the West; so whithersoever you turn, there will be the face of ALLAH … (2:115)

You see Ismailis faith (and generally Shias) is dynamic yet very true to the teachings of Holy Prophet(pbuh) and Allah's commandments.

Dear Nothingness: First find out yourself what you believe in then worry about other people's beliefs. You may think yourself very knowledgeable but your recent posts (parroting from other sites) are not original and are full of false conclusions.
What an ignorant fool! Don't you know that 2:115 was revealed to answer Jew's complaint that Allah had commanded Muslims to face the Kaaba during prayer? This was a change from facing Jerusalem. Do not teach Quran to Muslims or non-Muslims, specially having learned it from Western Catholic Bishops!!

The ayat that commands praying towards Kaaba is 2:144

Here is Sahih International translation:

"We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#107

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 7:44 pm

Sura II:177

It is not righteous That ye turn your faces Twoards East or West; But it is righteousness to believe in God and Last Day, and The Angels and Book and Messengers; To spend your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphas, for needy, for the wayfared, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slave to be steadfast in prayer and practicing regular charity to fulfil the contracts which ye have made;....

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#108

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 8:02 pm

anajmi wrote:biradar and fayyaaz,

Awww, why don't you two get a room? You guys can discuss me over breakfast about how one can't get enough of me and the how the other can't seem to ignore me. :mrgreen:

You make my day my wahabi friend. :lol:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#109

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 8:09 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Salim,

I stand by what I wrote about my cousin. Can you comment on below taken from:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and ... faith.html

( I googled "Ali Allah")

Aga Khan introduces "Ali is truly Allah" as the Confession of Faith

Aga Khan was also successful in changing course of the religious path of the community. The Ithna'ashriyyah rites and rituals that his mother and grandfather had introduced in thecommunity were systematically thrown out by him. The jobs of the Shiah Maulvis were taken over by his close relatives and paid missionaries. Aga Khan introduced new theological concepts and sacred practices. Many of which attributed explicit divinity to Hazrat Ali, such as; reciting of "Ali is truly Allah" as an integral part of the Shahadah (Declaration of Faith), in their daily ritual prayers called Du'a. This was the beginning of the third and final proselytization in the history of the Khojah community. Today, Ismailis recite "Aliyyullah" in their ritual Du'a which translates; "Ali, the Allah".

Below are the faithful reproductions of the Arabic transliteration, the English translation and the Gujrati translation (transliterated) of the phrase "Aliyyullah", as they appears in the book of Ismaili Du'a, officially published by `The Shia Imami Ismailia Association for Africa, Kenya', 1963:-

The Arabic transliteration:
"La ilaha illallaha, Mohammedur-Rasoolullahi, Aliyyun Amirul-mu'mineen Aliyyullah:"

The English translation:
"There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, Ali, the master of the believers, is from Allah."

The Gujrati translation (transliterated) of the phrase "Aliyyullah":
Please note the words within the parantheses are NOT mine, they do appear in the book of Dua: "Allah mahthi chhe (ane te ejh chhe)"
which means; "Is from Allah (and is the same)
".

Here is a further clarification of the enigmatic phrase and its paradoxical translations:

The phrase "Aliyyullah" is a combination of two words. "Aliyyun" and "Allah". When these two words are joined together, the letter "n" becomes silent and the phrase is read as "Aliyyullah. The word "Aliyyun" translates "The Ali", and the word "Allah" translates "The God". Hence, the phrase "Aliyyullah" means "The Ali, The God". In the Ismaili terminology it signifies "The Aga Khan (The 49th Ali), The God".

The introduction of the innovated `Shahadah' in the Gujarati Du'a which declared "Ali, truly Allah", became the basis of a major division among the followers of Aga Khan. In 1901, a small group of reprimanded followers, who had been admonished by the Ithna'ashriyya Mullahs during their visitation of Karbala, approached the Aga Khan with a special request. These followers were advised by the Iraqi Mullahs that the worship of Ali or Aga Khan as an Incarnation, Manifestation and/or Associate of Allah (SWT) nullifies their prayers, voids their fasting, pilgrimages, zakah, etc., and the eternal hell would be their place of abode in the hereafter. The special request was to replace the enigmatic "Declaration of Faith" from the newly introduced Gujarati Du'a, with the one that declared Ali to be "the beloved of Allah" ("Ali-un-Wally-Allah"). Such a Declaration was professed by the rest of the Shiahs. The young Aga Khan was adamant and refused to amend or discard the "heretic" Declaration. He insisted, if the phrase that attributed "Divinity" to Ali (there by to himself, the 48th Ali) was to be discarded, then the entire Du'a should be throw out by his followers. The enlightened followers, having failed in their mission, decided to revert back to the original Ithna'ashriyya persuasion of their ancestors. A persuasion which was practised and professed by Aga Khan the first. The splinter group renounced the leadership of Aga Khan and established the Khojah Ithna'ashriyya Jama'at in Bombay. From there it spread to the rest of India and Africa. Due to this split many Khojah families in India and Africa were divided. They continue to remain so, until now. Today, Khojah Ismailis say; "Ithna'ashri Khojahs are the Dissidents." The Khojah Ithna'ashris say; "Ismaili Khojahs are the one who have abandoned the faith of their forefathers."

RITUALS:

Karim Aga khan resolves: "Imaam is the mazhar (image/copy) of God"The concepts of Nabuwah and Imamah:
"These concepts to be explained and understood in the general perspective of God's communication to man. The Imaam to be explained as the `mazhar' of God, related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."Note: The Arabic word `mazar' means image; copy. Karim Aga Khan thus became an image/copy of God by the above resolution.

The sprinkling of holy water upon the face of a dead Ismaili and forgiving of his/her sins is an important ritual called "Chhantas". The ceremony is usually carried out before the burial, by a religious leader (Mukhi) of the local Jamatkhana to which the individual belongs. When the deceased Aga Khan was alive he used to collect a small donation, sprinkle the holy water and forgive the sins of his spiritual followers.

At the age of seven, Prince Karim who feared darkness, lead the Eid Salat (ritual prayer) of the Jama'at in Nairobi, Kenya. It was a significant event for the followers. The vast majority of whom do not know how to recite the Islamic Salat. Agakhani Ismailis recite "Du'a" instead of the Islamic Salat, facing any direction, in their Jamatkhanas.

Only fet-ass like you will google and come to your friend in hell Maherally, who concted this story and had to admit in court that he lied and withdrew his books from the shelf. This has been discussed many times in this forum whose asses we have turned blue, but like you they keep coming back for more. Now it is your turn until you say, "I will be away for a few days". :lol:

circ du soleil encore! :lol:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#110

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 13, 2015 8:10 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:Sura II:177

It is not righteous That ye turn your faces Twoards East or West; But it is righteousness to believe in God and Last Day, and The Angels and Book and Messengers; To spend your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphas, for needy, for the wayfared, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slave to be steadfast in prayer and practicing regular charity to fulfil the contracts which ye have made;....
Hey, Ismaili moron,

Like I told your buddy, do not masquerade as an authority on the Quran when you don't know shit about it. Learn tafsir first. 2:177 along with 2:115 are in answer to some people's objections that the prayer direction was changed by Allah from Jerusalem to Kaaba. I mean the cubicle building the Quran says was built by Ibrahim and Ismail.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#111

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 13, 2015 8:16 pm

Fayyazz: Hazrat Umar (RA= May he be ridiculed by Ali Allah) is dead. You are so upset that the dead guy changed some of Prophet's traditions but
Can you read English. I did not ridicule Hazar Umar, I praised him saying he changed the prescriptions according to time because the Prophet wanted the people to be Ibn al-Waqat". C'est tous mon ami.

KA786110
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:20 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#112

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 13, 2015 10:01 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
KA786110 wrote: There is no one Islamic Salat. There is Salat. Each Tariqah has has its own take/interpretation on how to offer prayers.

As for where to face during prayers:

To ALLAH belongs the East and the West; so whithersoever you turn, there will be the face of ALLAH … (2:115)

You see Ismailis faith (and generally Shias) is dynamic yet very true to the teachings of Holy Prophet(pbuh) and Allah's commandments.

Dear Nothingness: First find out yourself what you believe in then worry about other people's beliefs. You may think yourself very knowledgeable but your recent posts (parroting from other sites) are not original and are full of false conclusions.
What an ignorant fool! Don't you know that 2:115 was revealed to answer Jew's complaint that Allah had commanded Muslims to face the Kaaba during prayer? This was a change from facing Jerusalem. Do not teach Quran to Muslims or non-Muslims, specially having learned it from Western Catholic Bishops!!

The ayat that commands praying towards Kaaba is 2:144

Here is Sahih International translation:

"We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."
au contraire -- We know and obey Qur'anic teaching better than you dear nothingness. You have no beliefs at all. Right!!! :P

Again read it: To ALLAH belongs the East and the West; so whithersoever you turn, there will be the face of ALLAH … (2:115)
I am alluding to the message in the ayaat that Allah is everywhere and praying to him is from heart. Re-read my comments with calm mind and without getting too upset and you will see the light. :D

So what if both Sunni and Shia pray facing Kaaba and read the same Qur'an but they are still killing each other. Should not those two things be uniting them and keeping them in harmonious relations (like brothers and sisters). :P

Alas, they have forgotten the real essence of Islam and are only performing mindless taqlids.
Last edited by KA786110 on Wed May 13, 2015 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#113

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed May 13, 2015 10:06 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:
Fayyazz: Hazrat Umar (RA= May he be ridiculed by Ali Allah) is dead. You are so upset that the dead guy changed some of Prophet's traditions but
Can you read English. I did not ridicule Hazar Umar, I praised him saying he changed the prescriptions according to time because the Prophet wanted the people to be Ibn al-Waqat". C'est tous mon ami.
Please post Hadith that Prophet wanted the people to be Ibn-Al-Waqt!

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#114

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 13, 2015 10:14 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:Sura II:177

It is not righteous That ye turn your faces Towards East or West; But it is righteousness to believe in God and Last Day, and The Angels and Book and Messengers; To spend your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slave to be steadfast in prayer and practicing regular charity to fulfill the contracts which ye have made;....
This Mr. Nothingness definitely will not understand. They would prefer performing prayers mechanically without putting love and heart into it (mindless taqlidi). All their attention is directed in making sure their physical actions are correct not that their hearts and minds are into the prayer itself.

humanbeing
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#115

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu May 14, 2015 8:52 am

KA786110 wrote: They would prefer performing prayers mechanically without putting love and heart into it (mindless taqlidi). All their attention is directed in making sure their physical actions are correct not that their hearts and minds are into the prayer itself.
to be honest, at some point in one's life namaaz becomes a mechanical habitual exercise, without really emotionally connecting with the duaas that are recited.

for many, it is chanting of the duaas ... and finishing the targeted arkaans / salaat.

Biradar
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#116

Unread post by Biradar » Thu May 14, 2015 10:45 am

KA786110 wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:Sura II:177

It is not righteous That ye turn your faces Towards East or West; But it is righteousness to believe in God and Last Day, and The Angels and Book and Messengers; To spend your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slave to be steadfast in prayer and practicing regular charity to fulfill the contracts which ye have made;....
This Mr. Nothingness definitely will not understand. They would prefer performing prayers mechanically without putting love and heart into it (mindless taqlidi). All their attention is directed in making sure their physical actions are correct not that their hearts and minds are into the prayer itself.
My friend KA786110, I am not sure what your point is? Are you saying that is okay to disobey the explicit injunction in Quran to face the kaaba when saying the obligatory salaat? Please answer clearly, and unambiguously.

I should say that for Bohras the question is fully settled. The salaat must be done, even if it is a mechanical act, in the manner prescribed in the prophetic hadith, as codified in several books, including the Daim al-Islam. It is best if it is not a mechanical act, and one puts some effort and thought into it. However, as, by definition this is an obligatory prayer, it must be done.

Also, I want to point out the obvious fact that 95% of Muslims do not understand the classical Arabic of the Quran. Hence, when they say the salaat they are actually simply performing a ritual, which ultimately is a mechanical act.

Unlike other Ismailis (and ghulaat splinter groups), Bohras believe in the duality of action and belief. What this means is that knowledge and beliefs are not enough. One must practice the outward shaaria at all times. This is not a disposable commodity, which can be twisted and discarded on ones personal whims. I should add that this (duality of action and belief) is an explicit Fatimid belief, which was in the forefront of the split which happened during the time of Imam Hakim, i.e. of the Druze.

Also, although he can defend himself, it is best engage people like fayyaaz, who probably know more about Islam than most people here. Belief or lack thereof in the existence of god is a subtle matter, and one that can not be fully settled. Honestly, I would rather have his atheist company than that of the many fanatics here. Best to engage the argument and not attack the person.

Biradar
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#117

Unread post by Biradar » Thu May 14, 2015 10:58 am

Incidentally, the verse 2:177

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."

does not imply that one can face anywhere one wants during prayers. That question (which direction to face) was already settled. The real point was to assuage the doubts of those who were confused with the change in the qibla direction. The point was that obedience of the command of Allah is of importance (hence the words "but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah"), i.e. once commanded by Allah, the believer must obey.

In addition, the words "East" and "West" here are specifically implying the beliefs of (some) Jews and Christians of that time, who would face those directions while praying. Hence, when the direction of prayers for Muslims was decided, it became a matter of faith and required implementation (and not be based on personal whims). To say otherwise is to disobey the explicit command of Allah.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#118

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu May 14, 2015 11:51 am

I am not attacking anyone. Just trying to expose hypocrisy of hiding behind 'No beliefs'.

What I am alluding to in previous post is that it is more important for prayers to be offered with heart and love. Actual actions of prayers are not set in stone for us,. Because as far as Shias are concerned their Imams are the interpreters of the Qur'an and their guidance is the key. So we look at the Imam of the time for directions.

Ahle Sunnah and many Shias (whose guidance by Imams have stopped due to hiding or seclusion) have their rites in static state. I am not saying that their situation is necessarily bad.

Biradar
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#119

Unread post by Biradar » Thu May 14, 2015 3:13 pm

KA786110 wrote:I am not attacking anyone. Just trying to expose hypocrisy of hiding behind 'No beliefs'.

What I am alluding to in previous post is that it is more important for prayers to be offered with heart and love. Actual actions of prayers are not set in stone for us,. Because as far as Shias are concerned their Imams are the interpreters of the Qur'an and their guidance is the key. So we look at the Imam of the time for directions.

Ahle Sunnah and many Shias (whose "guidance by Imams have stopped due to hiding or seclusion) have their rites in static state. I am not saying that their situation is necessarily bad.
Few points:

It is not clear that prayers must be offered with heart and love. Yes, it is good if one does so, but the fact that salaat is obligatory, makes it clear that one must do it, even if it is going through the motions. Love is a conditional feeling. One can not be commanded to love anyone, even god. It must come naturally, and not made obligatory. What Allah wants you to do is worship him and obey him and his prophet. If it was simply a matter of love, there would be no need for a shaaria at all.

A larger point here is that Islam has two somewhat contradictory aspects. One is the outward aspect of shaaria and of explicit action, and the other a more inward reflective action. Parts of the Quran clearly and explicitly ask for particular things to be done. A lot of this must be done in public. Parts of it are more abstract and open to interpretations, even at a personal, individual level, which is left to the private life. This reflects the fact that as humans, we both need to live with other people (for which we need society and laws) and also with our own inward conscience.

You say "… guidance by Imams have stopped due to hiding or seclusion …". Guidance by imam has been continuous and has not stopped. According to the Mustali Ismaili and Bohra communities, this guidance is via the person of the da'i (when the imam is in seclusion). The imam is not in "hiding". Ritual practice not changing is not a bad thing, as you yourself say. Bohra practice is very close to traditional Sunni practice, even though they believe that the outward actions are a symbol for inward, and deeper meanings. However, even if one were to learn these deeper meanings, it does not mean the outward symbols can be discarded.

Also, final point: imams can not simply do away with shaaria or, to put it another way, do away with parts of the Quran completely. The Quran's explicitly zaahir meaning must be preserved, but of course, remembering that there are other more deeper meanings also. The particular situation of the Ismailis (about not following the standard prophetic guidance on shaaria) is due to their belief that their imam Hassan has declared qiyaamah, which led to significant confusion about the nature of shaaria, and what one should do in this post-qiyaamah world.

(Incidentally, I should mention that Ismailis bend over backwards to try and wave their hands on this event trying to sweep it away under the rugs. The reality is that there is no convincing arguments to interpret this event in any other way but to say that it implied an abrogation of the shaaria.)

Incidentally, you did not answer the question:

"Are you saying that is okay to disobey the explicit injunction in Quran to face the kaaba when saying the obligatory salaat? Please answer clearly, and unambiguously."


I don't judge, just curious to know your thoughts on this, which is explicit and unambiguous in the Quran. Yes or no will do.

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#120

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 14, 2015 4:04 pm

Oh My God!!! biradar is turning into a wahhabi mullah madman. He is asking people to follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) while performing salaah. Oh My God!!!! What is this wahhabi madman going to do next? Chop off people's heads?? Somebody stop this madman. I am going to ignore his posts from now. I have put him on the top of my ignore list.