Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#31

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 6:31 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:
Why do I have to verify anything to you. But I shall look for the picture of him leading Namaz in his childhood.
I will look forward to seeing an authenticated photo of Aga Khan at 7 or 8 leading 'traditional' Muslim Idd prayer in an Ismaili Jamat Khana in Nairobi verifying what you previously wrote, that is, "At the age of 7 or 8 he led Idd Namaz in Nairobi Jamat Khana"
JavedhJuma wrote:
How many times have the Saudi Kings or Jordanians Kings, etc. led prayers.
Saudi Kings or Jordanian Kings do not claim to be Ismaili Imams or any Imam, for that matter. So, them leading prayers or not does not interest me. However, I have seen videos of both kings at traditional Muslim prayers at the Kaaba in Makkah.

Frankly though, you are scraping the bottom of a barrel to seek a childhood photo of Aga Khan at prayer when as an Imam he should be seen to be at prayer five times every day. For 75 years that translates to 75 x 365 x 5 =136,875 instances. You should be able to find an instance or two on photo or film out of nearly 140,000 prayers he must have offered, showing qiyam, ruku, sujood and juloos reciting tashahud and ending with Salaam. Good luck.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Thu May 07, 2015 6:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#32

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 6:36 pm

If he prays like an orthodox Muslim, like those whom you see praying at the Grand Mosque in Makkah, do Ismailis follow him in that practice?

There are 73 sects in Islam. Do they all pray the same way? Do you know Islam first? What is an orthodox Muslim? Why do we have to pray like them? And who told you their way of praying is true?

I do not want to discuss anymore about Aga Khan. Only about Islam.

Go ahead. Don't bring Aga Khan or Ismailis in your write ups. i'll leave your orthodox Muslims to respond to you.Being a patron of arts, education and architecture does not qualify him to be an Imam. What are the qualifications of an Imam? Besides, teaching his flock to fear God, be humble, remember Allah SWT everytime you are free (for spiritual well being) including being a patron of arts, education and architecture, specifically Islamic architecture,etc. And taking care of his flock besides other suffering people, rather Allah's creation, and less privileged people, saving environment.... show me one Muslim leader who does these things? A true Muslim who is God fearing does all this and teaches his community to do the same instead of throwing money on cars, big houses, several wives big garages for 120 cars..... Now, now, don't tell me Ismailis live in big houses and have many cars. They do and so do others who are non-Ismailis. Ismailis do not follow everything Imam says and neither do the rest of Islam who follow other leaders. Which building did Ali build all with his own money? (Just because Hazarat Ali did not build any building, does not mean nobody else should) What are you? An empty head? You remind me of another fool who seems to have gone to English school and polished up his English and returned or some other chap is using his ID. Hazrat Ali AS was a poor man. Islam was just beginning. Or like everything else you post here, you did not know this too.No one would mistake Ismailis in their Jamt Khana as practicing Muslims. Ask the Ismailis if they care.

There is nothing wrong in Ismailis, like Bohras and Ahmadis, following their own religion in any way they see fit. That is their right in the United States and 'free world'. So what is your problem. Ismailis have not faced any problem in Afghanistan, in Syria, in Pakistan etc. Are these parts of the free world? On the other hand, Shias and Sunnis are fighting among themselves. So why do they object to each other for following their way?
Just don't drag Aga Khan and Ismailis, especially Nizaris in your ignorant conversation and I shall leave you alone.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#33

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 6:44 pm

javedhjuma,

Please read my edited reply. While Muslims differ in minor ways in their prayers, they all follow qiyam, ruku, sujood and juloos reciting tashahud and ending with Salaam.

I have no problem with Ismailis. You brought Aga Khan up in discussion about learning Quran from a Catholic, asking for clarification of my view. I am sure some Catholics know more about Muslims and Islam than most Muslims. However, I think Quran is best learned from a Muslim practicing his faith. I already pointed out false comparison between eucharist and Quran that the Bishop made applying to all Muslims. I do not think he has adequate knowledge about the Shia or Ismailis.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#34

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 6:55 pm

Saudi Kings or Jordanian Kings do not claim to be Ismaili Imams or any Imam, for that matter. So, them leading prayers or not does not interest me. However, I have seen videos of both kings at traditional Muslim prayers at the Kaaba in Makkah.
I would think as protectors of Makkah and Medina they are the leaders of Muslims. Saudi Kings have originated from thugs. As Saud was a thug and joined with Abdl Wahab........The Jordanian King claims to be the descendant of the Hashemites, i.e. Prophet SAW.

The true answer, which you do not know, is only if an Imam of a masjid requests you to lead prayers you do so, but if you are a guest, and are not requested to do so you don't. Aga Khan was requested in Tanzania to lead prayers in a Sunni Mosque because of his grand father who had several times led prayers in Sunni Mosque. They gave him that respect because late Imam had given money to the Muslims to build Madressa and teach their children English, etc. To this day the present Imam has continued this and has even built Madressas and schools with curricular activities. In one of the videos the students are clapping and saying, "we are the children of Aga Khan".! What do ignorant mouths like some on this forum know! They just talk about Islam, not knowing what true Islam is.

Imam means a leader. Hazarat Ali was Imam too but he prayed behind Hazarat Abu Bakar. Duh!

Don't teach Islam to an Ismaili. As a matter of fact, don't talk about Islam. You don't know anything. You are surfing the net and picking a few things here and there and writing here to show off.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#35

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 7:04 pm

JavedhJuma wrote: As a matter of fact, don't talk about Islam. You don't know anything. You are surfing the net and picking a few things here and there and writing here to show off.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#36

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 7:37 pm

javedhjuma,

Please read my edited reply. While Muslims differ in minor ways in their prayers, they all follow qiyam, ruku, sujood and juloos reciting tashahud and ending with Salaam. Fayyaz whether they differ in minor ways or major is not our business. They differ period. Are you sure everyone puts their hands on the sides or their stomachs? So those who follow qiyam, ruku...etc. are true Muslims. It does not matter if they ignore other qualifications??? Is that what you are saying? So those barbarics who slit innocent peoples throats, according to you are Muslims because they do ruku (with guns by their sides)....? They do all that you state to qualify a Muslim, i.e. rukuy, sujood,juloos, etc. So they are Muslims and Aga Khan and his people, who are saving the world are non-Muslims. Aga Khan tells his people to remember Allah, Muhammad and Ali every time they are not doing anything. Not to waste a single breadth. Remembering Allah SWT constantly, disqualifies them to be Muslims but doing ruku.etc. qualifies, them... .... (WE surrender to Allah SWT and do six sujoods to Allah SWT) in one prayer that is 18 in one day. And even more sajdas and submission after each prayer....I can't even count...Qur'an repeatedly says recite prayers and give alms and if Aga Khanis do that, they are not Muslims because they do not do ruku.... Something is wrong with your faculty. I thought you were an intelligent person, but your cavity is empty just like other Aga Khan haters on this forum.

I have no problem with Ismailis. You brought Aga Khan up in discussion about learning Quran from a Catholic, asking for clarification of my view. First of all I posted an article from a Catholic priest, for peoples knowledge that even a Catholic knows about the Qur'an. I specifically did not ask for your view. You just went off on Aga Khan and Ismailis spewing venom, which was uncalled for. You sounded like your pants were on fire.I am sure some Catholics know more about Muslims and Islam than most Muslims. You are right, they sure do.However, I think Quran is best learned from a Muslim practicing his faith. You got to be kidding. Look at Islam today which has been preached by Muslims to Muslims. Can you still insist that it is best taught by a Muslim? First define who is good Muslim, not just who follow five pillars and pray like Baghdadi. We know Islam has failed because of idiots like those. So save me your rhetoric. I already pointed out false comparison between eucharist and Quran that the Bishop made applying to all Muslims. I do not think he has adequate knowledge about the Shia or Ismailis.
So what. Where did he specifically mention Ismailis. You created that impression yourself. I can assure you he has better knowledge than you do. Are you a judge. First of all you yourself don't know anything about Islam or different interpretations. You just think there is one Islam and Ismailis are not part of it. Pleaese do some research and learn Ismaili beliefs from Ismailis and not some idiots on this forum who don't know anything about Islam except the five pillars and that too the outward interpretation just like the al-Baghdadis and some sick fools on this forum

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#37

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 8:03 pm

Fayyaz, please read second para. and I am trying to get you the pic too.

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/history ... ry836.html

Enjoy

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#38

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 9:39 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:Fayyaz, please read second para. and I am trying to get you the pic too.

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/history ... ry836.html

Enjoy
From the link:

"In 1943, the Aga Khan IV led the Eid al-Fitr prayer amidst a large congregation of the Ismailis in the Jamatkhana, situated at Government Road in Nairobi."

I do not doubt the statement above. Leading Ismailies alone in prayer is not a picture I am interested. I am interested in Aga Khan performing orthodox Muslim prayer in the fashion of the Prophet as an Imam, meaning leader of prayer, not Imam in the Shia sense. I want a picture of him leading Muslims of all denominations like the prayers offered in Makkah and Madina.

I have a cousin (a Bohra) who fell in love with an Ismaili boy and married him. She went through rigorous training to convert to Ismailism. I have several Ismail friends, some I grew up with. My cousin surpasses them all in her fanatical devotion to Aga Khan. In fact, she embarrases my Ismaili friends with her devotion.

Now this would be of interest to some of you. She has a habit of praying for all her relatives summoning Ali Allah's help. I asked her what she meant by Ali Allah. Did she mean Ali (son of Abu Talib) and Allah? She understands and believes that Ali and Allah are the same. I think she is mistaken but then that is her training. No muslim, not even Bohras, would consider Ali and Allah to be the same. Some Bohras may fall for their Dai's claim that he is God on Earth. But even they would not call their Dai Allah.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#39

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu May 07, 2015 9:57 pm

fayyaaz wrote: While Muslims differ in minor ways in their prayers, they all follow qiyam, ruku, sujood and juloos reciting tashahud and ending with Salaam.
These are outward forms of the salat. The real substance of the salat is in what is recited (surahs, ayats, supplications, durud etc) as part of it. Ismaili prayers do include most of these physical/outward actions except ruku.
fayyaaz wrote: I have no problem with Ismailis. You brought Aga Khan up in discussion about learning Quran from a Catholic, asking for clarification of my view. I am sure some Catholics know more about Muslims and Islam than most Muslims. However, I think Quran is best learned from a Muslim practicing his faith. I already pointed out false comparison between eucharist and Quran that the Bishop made applying to all Muslims. I do not think he has adequate knowledge about the Shia or Ismailis.
Depends on what type of course and lesson it is. If it is a college/school intro course to Qur'an then you take it from the
professor/instructor who is teaching it. This way you do get somewhat broader understanding. But if you are trying to learn Tilawat, recitation or in depth understanding then you would go with a Muslim Scholar of you own Tariqah.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#40

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu May 07, 2015 10:12 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Ahle Sunnah have to keep performing prayers and other rituals in the same way as they were being performed 1400 years ago because they chose not follow Imams
Actually there is no order in Quran to follow heridatory Imam from prophet's progeny and Prophet did not clearly appoint Ali as next leader. Supporters of Ali succumbed to " smoke and mirror" evidence and invented New Tariqa called Shiism. Majority continued to follow Quran and Sunnah of Prophet and after couple of Hindred years came to be known as Sunnis to distinguish from Shia.
LOL. Have you not heard of Holy Prophet's (pbuh) command at Ghadir E khum and Hadith al-Thaqalayn. Ahle Sunnah was created by Ummayads and Abassids to counter Ahle Bayt Imams influence.

Muslim First wrote:This dispute is unending. Wasalaam
I agree 100% here. This dispute will never end. Of course Qiyamat will end it.

Wasalaam.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#41

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 10:32 pm

fayyaz:
I do not doubt the statement above. Leading Ismailies alone in prayer is not a picture I am interested. I am interested in Aga Khan performing orthodox Muslim prayer in the fashion of the Prophet as an Imam, meaning leader of prayer, not Imam in the Shia sense. I want a picture of him leading Muslims of all denominations like the prayers offered in Makkah and Madina.
I promise you, you will get the picture where he led the prayers at the age of 7..

In the meantime, Aga Khan is only a Shia Ismaili Imam so he cannot lead Sunni namaz or any other namaz. However, our Idd Namaz is the same as the Sunni Namaz.

Please see below pics of Imam with the African (natives) in Africa. He is praying with them. You see other pics of late Imam leading Ismaili Namaz too.

Let me ask you a reverse question. Would a salafi Imam lead a prayer in a Shia mosque? You ask pretty stupid questions donn't you.

Now go and look at these pics.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Karim Aga Khan in a Mosque of East Africa in 1959


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Karim Aga Khan is seen at the Mosque in Syria, March 1972.




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The Late Aga Khan in black Sherwani is leading the Eid Prayer.
On his right hand is his eldest son Prince Aly Khan.

.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#42

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 10:33 pm

Sorry, pics did not print. Have to find the link. I was just forwarded pics which I thought I could print. Did not work.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#43

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 11:10 pm

JavedhJuma,

I believe you. You have pictures of Aga Khan leading prayer. Was this a one-time event for publicity or does the picture show the normal way of Ismailies praying? I am at a loss to understand why you cannot show me video of Aga Khan praying daily today and not just a picture from 2 generations ago.

Let us call this debate ended. I will not be posting anymore on this thread.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#44

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu May 07, 2015 11:24 pm

fayyaaz wrote:JavedhJuma,

I believe you. You have pictures of Aga Khan leading prayer. Was this a one-time event for publicity or does the picture show the normal way of Ismailies praying? I am at a loss to understand why you cannot show me video of Aga Khan praying daily today and not just a picture from 2 generations ago.

Let us call this debate ended. I will not be posting anymore on this thread.
It is very tough for an outsider to understand another Tariqah especially the one with a living Imam. To understand Ismaili Tariqah you need to study the concept of Walayah, Imam's status and role and that religious practices change with time but without losing the core precepts of the faith.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#45

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 11:35 pm

Now you are saying the Aga Khan led prayers for publicity stunt! Well, good, discontinue this debate. But before I end, let me remind you again, A Sunni mosque cannot invite a Shia leader to lead a prayer because the congregants and the leader will all be confused, don't you think so?

You are asking me the impossible question. Show me any Sunni leading prayers at Shia Mosque and vice-versa. When you lose the discussion you run. Why are you after the Aga Khan so much. Unfortunately, you did not expect somebody to respond to you, did you? Dont underestimate us. Don't teach Islam to us.

Here is what you ask. Show me Aga Khan leading Ismailis in prayers. When I show you, you want me to show him leading Sunnis in prayers and when I am getting that for you, you say you don't want him leading prayers for publicity stunt.

You are damn stupid! Don't you think so.

Since you know zilch about Ismailism or about any Islamic firqa, please stay put or be prepared to be undressed.

As for the video of Aga Khan praying???? huh? You think I will go to France to video Aga Khan praying and what right do I have? You think you are very smart, don't you? I do not need the proof, you do, so why don't you go yourself. I don't care how he prays, you do, so you go.

You are truly pathetic.

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#46

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri May 08, 2015 6:19 am

Imams of Shias were actually Sunni.

This is the series of articles where they have proven that the Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imams were on the Creed of Ahlesunnah wal Jama’ah.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.co ... lly-sunni/

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#47

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri May 08, 2015 8:44 am

JavedhJuma,

I believe that you would be welcome to pray in any Muslim mosque unless that mosque happens to be an Ismaili Jamatkhana or a mosque belonging to another pathetic Ismaili offshoot like Bohras.

You will find all kinds of denominations praying in Makkah and Madinah. You do not wait to be invited there. In fact, Makkah and Madinah Grand Mosques are now Wahhabi mosques. Even Bohras can be seen praying there. I have seen videos of the late King Hussein of Jordan and the late King Idris of Morocco performing prayer in ihram there. Even Bohra Dais perform prayers there including occasionally in ihram offering what are recognizably Muslim prayers involving qiyam, ruku, sujood etc.

And what about the most significant Shia masjids attached to shrines of Ali and Husain in Najaf and Karbala. Shia and their leaders flock there in large numbers.

Any picture of Agha Khan in ihram in Makkah?

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#48

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri May 08, 2015 9:32 am

fayyaaz wrote: You will find all kinds of denominations praying in Makkah and Madinah. You do not wait to be invited there.
To clarify, azaan is a call to prayer heard five times a day in all masjids (not sure about Jamatkhanas). It is in fact an invitation to prayer for all Muslims.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#49

Unread post by KA786110 » Fri May 08, 2015 10:49 am

fayyaaz wrote:
fayyaaz wrote: You will find all kinds of denominations praying in Makkah and Madinah. You do not wait to be invited there.
To clarify, azaan is a call to prayer heard five times a day in all masjids (not sure about Jamatkhanas). It is in fact an invitation to prayer for all Muslims.
It is not true that all mosques in the world have Azaan sounding out via loudspeakers. In this modern age when every one has access to watches/clocks you do not necessarily need that mechanism. The Moezzen calls out Azaan after looking at his/her watch anyway. Ahle Sunnah are stuck in 1400 years old traditions. Some of them are very anachronistic.

As far as Jamatkhana is concerned, it is for a specific Jamat.

All your questions/issues can be summed up into one question: Why are Ismailis different from Ahle-Sunnah?

Of course they will be different because they are following different Tariqah of Islam.

I repeat what I posted earlier:

It is very tough for an outsider to understand another Tariqah especially the one with a living Imam. To understand Ismaili Tariqah you need to study the concept of Walayah, Imam's status and role and that religious practices change with time but without losing the core precepts of the faith.

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 08, 2015 1:01 pm

As long as Ismailis refrain from violence, they can do whatever they want. But they are wrong, they don't do this they don't do that, they are like this their Imam is weird, but as long as they refrain from violence, America allows them to do whatever they want, but this is what they don't do according to Islam but this is what they are supposed to do but this is why they are wrong but this is what is wrong with them but as long as they refrain from violence, I am ok with whatever they do but this is the problem with their Imam and this is where he is not in line with bohras but as long as they refrain from violence, I am ok with what they do but......

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#51

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri May 08, 2015 3:26 pm

For Javed and his buddy.

Maulana Hazar Imam Karim Aga Khan is Muslim and claims to be heridatory Imam.

As a Muslim
- 5 canonical Salat is Fird on him, he must have Wadu before he prays
- Jumma prayers are Fird on him
- Fast in Ramadan is Fird on him
- Hajj in life time is Fird on him. He definitely can afford it.
- Zakat from his personal earning and wealth is Fird on him.
- He cannot sell alcohol, it is the prohibited for him since he is Muslim.

He or his Murids claims he is living Quran. He must adhere to quranic commands and Sunna of the Prophet.
How to perform Salat was shown to Prophet by angele. Aga Khan claims he is Ali so he must know how Prohe performed prayers so he must do it.
He promised Uniform Namaaz for his Jamat. It's been six years he should have courage to publish it. It's About time .

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#52

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri May 08, 2015 3:33 pm

Ahle Sunnah are stuck in 1400 years old traditions. Some of them are very anachronistic.
Only Prophet and Allah can change 5 founding principle of Islam. If you change it then it Is Bidah (Innovation) and forbidden in Islam.
Salat and fast is no burden. I even pray in Public.

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#53

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri May 08, 2015 4:03 pm

the Prophet Said to be Ibn al-Waqt
Can you quote actual Hadith! When, where and in what context he said it.

I could not find it.

Only thing I found is what Aga Khan III said. He said roughly " I an Ibn-Al- Waqt ( son of the times) like The Prophet was Ibn-Al-Waqt.

Ismailis use this to justify wholesale change in Islam.


anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 10, 2015 12:01 pm

bro javed,

I looked at this link on the above facebook page.

http://ismailignosis.com/2013/03/03/the ... ah-to-dua/

I went through it. I have comments on pretty much everything said over there. But here is one question for you. The article says

After walāyah, the most important Pillar of Islam is prayer (ṣalāh). Prayer has been enjoined upon the believers for their own spiritual benefit. According to the Prophet Muḥammad, “The prayer is the mi‘rāj of the believer.”

As per the above, according to the prophet Muhammad (saw) - “The prayer is the mi‘rāj of the believer.” However, it is still not the most important pillar of Islam according to this article. Has prophet Muhammad (saw) said anything similar about walayah?

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#56

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 10, 2015 12:06 pm

It is not true that all mosques in the world have Azaan sounding out via loudspeakers. In this modern age when every one has access to watches/clocks you do not necessarily need that mechanism. The Moezzen calls out Azaan after looking at his/her watch anyway. Ahle Sunnah are stuck in 1400 years old traditions. Some of them are very anachronistic.
According to the minor and major signs of judgement, the day will arrive when there is no one around to give the azaan. If we had all moved forward, like you people have, we would already be standing in front of the Lord for judgment!!

It is amazing how people have allergies with regards to the glorification of Allah almightly. Azaan is nothing but regular glorification of Allah and his gift to us which is Salaah. Glorification of Allah 5 times a day is now "anachronistic"!! What a shame.

Islam and Quran came to glorify Allah. Shiaism and its branches, including Ismailism and bohraism, were created to glorify humans. That is the bottom line.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#57

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Sun May 10, 2015 6:02 pm

anajmi wrote:bro javed,

I looked at this link on the above facebook page.

http://ismailignosis.com/2013/03/03/the ... ah-to-dua/

I went through it. I have comments on pretty much everything said over there. But here is one question for you. The article says

After walāyah, the most important Pillar of Islam is prayer (ṣalāh). Prayer has been enjoined upon the believers for their own spiritual benefit. According to the Prophet Muḥammad, “The prayer is the mi‘rāj of the believer.”

As per the above, according to the prophet Muhammad (saw) - “The prayer is the mi‘rāj of the believer.” However, it is still not the most important pillar of Islam according to this article. Has prophet Muhammad (saw) said anything similar about walayah?

I haven't read the article. However, here is my explanation. Walaya i.e. the belief in the Prophet and Imam is the most important pillar for all Shias, including bohoras and Ithana'asheris, one without which your prayers are not valid. Hence Walaya is first and then the prayers. I believe, this is also the first article of our constitution. First, the belief in the Prophethood of Nabi Rasul SAW, followed by the living Imam.

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#58

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 10, 2015 6:13 pm

Bro javed,

I know that walaya is the most important pillar for the shias and i have explained above the reason for that. Walaya is glorification of humans and salaah is glorification of Allah. Are you sure you are on the right side? And by the way, the prophet hasnt mentioned anything with regards to the importance of walaya as he has about salaah, and hajj, and zakat and fasting and tawheed.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#59

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun May 10, 2015 6:56 pm

Beliefs are fetishes. They are desires for somethings to be so. Religious beliefs in particular are like childhood fetishes. They are desires to remain attached to infantile indoctrination which is very attractive because it offers security in an imagined paradise of childhood.

Walayat is a fetish. It is easy to manufacture Walayat specially when it is hung onto a person imagined to possess otherworldly (spiritual) qualities.

Don't think non-Shias are free of this fetish. Object of their walayat is Allah. Allah is abstract but among non-Shia, Allah is the only object of worship, the monotheistic idol. Thus non-Shia can easily pretend that they are upholding Tawheed, that is they do not associate a partner with Allah.

Object of the Shia Walayat is their Imam.

Ithnaashari Imam is as abstract as Allah. Thus they are strictly not monotheistic. But they do not have a visble concrete Imam for outsiders to accuse them of being idol-worshipers of Imam along with Allah.

Ismaili Imam is visible and has clearly replaced Allah as the sole object of Walayat. Ismailies just lump Aga Khan, Ali and Allah into a Trinity. Three is One and One is three, rather like Christians. After all, one of their representatives on this forum, Javedjhuma, believes that it is better to learn Quran from a Catholic Bishop rather than a Muslim. I can see the affinity because both have Trinity in their religious view.

Bohra Imam, like Ithnaashari Imam, is invisble. But like Ismailies, they have a living object for their walayat. It is the Dai. Their holy books say Walayat is for the invisible Imam. But that has now clearly been superseded. Thus Ismailies and Bohras have living idols as their objects of Walayat. Like Ismailies, Bohras worship their living idol and both, Ismailies and Bohras, are very susceptible to accusations of Shirk if they claim to be Muslims.

Now, why anyone wants to say that your prayers are not valid unless you have Walayat for their particular idol is beyond me. You will notice that both the Shia and non-Shia say the same thing, "Worship my fetish and you will go to paradise". There is as much logic in all this as in a dumb teenager's belief that Beyonce is the reincarnation of Mother Mary.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#60

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Sun May 10, 2015 7:06 pm

Anajmi,

According to the minor and major signs of judgement, the day will arrive when there is no one around to give the azaan. If we had all moved forward, like you people have, we would already be standing in front of the Lord for judgment!!We are not the only people moving forward, a lot of your people have moved with us too. They do not look at the Sun to remember Allah SWT. They look at their watches. There are hardly any muezzins, most of Azans are pre-recorded and timed with the clocks. Azaan is a call to prayer. Albeit there is Glorification of Allah SWT. Sunnis in my area do not announce the Azan does that mean they are not gloriying Allah SWT. They all run to Masjids and look at their watches.

Signs of Judgement could be many and I doubt it is the absence of Azan. If according to you it is, then who am I to disagree?. However, look at the Ummah, they do all that you do, brother aNajmi, yet they have no hesitation in destroying Allah SWT's creation. Look at Islam today. Is this what you think is Islam? They recite Azan, pray 5 times, and please look around you, who is the most destructive sect on earth?. Who are these monsters. You tell me who are they. These people claim to be following Islam. Do you think they are glorifying Allah SWT. Look how they torture and kill people and recite Allah O'Akbar. Is that glorification of Allah SWT. They have arms and ammunitions next to them. If they believed in Allah SWT, why do they think they need weapons when they recite prayers.

Let Allah SWT be the judge.


It is amazing how people have allergies with regards to the glorification of Allah almightly. Azaan is nothing but regular glorification of Allah and his gift to us which is Salaah. People do not have allergies to the golorification of Allah SWT, just each Tariqa has its own way of Glorification. You should not be so judgemental.Glorification of Allah 5 times a day is now "anachronistic"!! What a shame. That is your opinion, and you have a right to your opinion. I do not have a problem with your interpretation.

Islam and Quran came to glorify Allah. Shiaism and its branches, including Ismailism and bohraism, were created to glorify humans. That is the bottom line.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I do not agree with it. We have been instructed to remember Allah SWT every time we are free in addition to our prayers and Ibada and not just five times a day. You have a wrong impression of Ismailis and their reverence of their Imam. We rever our Imam because he treats us like his children and takes care of us and guides us in our every day lives. He is our Ulil Amr. Hence we rever him. If you have a problem then it is your problem not ours.

Yes, we have a lot to be thankful to our Imam. Ismaili Imams have uplifted us. We were very poor people. Last two Imams built schools and hospitals and opened dispensaries, all of which were open to every community. They established Golden Jubilee Insurance, Diamond Trust, etc. for the sake of Ismailis. How do you think we became so well settled and educated from "khoja, uthav boja". Our Ancestors were coolies. Imams and their families helped us with setting up businesses. When Ismailis faced problems in Uganda, Congo, Angola, Afghanistan, and former soviet republics, our Imam was there to help us. We believe behind him was a supernatural power. Why should we not revere him. If we did not, then we would be ungrateful peoples. But we do not prostrate to him. He would not like it either. That is why we say in our Du'a to Allah SWT "Our prostration is due to You". We also say to Allah SWT right after Sura Fateha: I prostrate before Thee, I rely upon Thee, From Thee is my strength, and Thou art my protection, Ya Rabiul Alameen. Now, if you do not agree with us, that is your prerogative like many others on this forum. However, we have no problem with your beliefs.


If you have a problem with the article that accompanied the pictures (I was not aware of the article), why don't you write to them politely without accusing them, and I am sure you will get your answers. People at Ismailignosis are very professional people unlike some rogues on this forum. These are Professors and students at Harvard. I am sure they can satisfy you.