Just Wonder????

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Just Wonder????

#1

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:50 am

Please do not label me Kafir or Mushrik but just a thought.
.
When Allaha created Adam and asked Shaitan to do Sajda, Shaitan refused, first sign of disobedience against most powerful
He created Eve and then told Adam not to go near that tree, Being a man he listened to his wife and disobeyed Allaha then most powerful
and then what here is Allaha, the most merciful what he does he punishes the entire mankind for not having enough control over his own subject. Is this fair....
This is the bases for entire Abrahamic faith and just because two of his ardent supporter did not follow his command he takes out his anger on entire Mankind..
Just wonder...
(please no quoting from Quran or Ahdith--just a logical explanation)

Biradar
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Re: Just Wonder????

#2

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:48 pm

SBM wrote:Please do not label me Kafir or Mushrik but just a thought.
.
When Allaha created Adam and asked Shaitan to do Sajda, Shaitan refused, first sign of disobedience against most powerful
He created Eve and then told Adam not to go near that tree, Being a man he listened to his wife and disobeyed Allaha then most powerful
and then what here is Allaha, the most merciful what he does he punishes the entire mankind for not having enough control over his own subject. Is this fair....
This is the bases for entire Abrahamic faith and just because two of his ardent supporter did not follow his command he takes out his anger on entire Mankind..
Just wonder...
(please no quoting from Quran or Ahdith--just a logical explanation)
Allah did not ask Shiatan to do sajda. He asked Iblis, who was created from fire and one of the sublime angels. Aadam did not "listen" to his wife. Don't take away his responsibility in the whole affair. However, yes, this story is ridiculous and senseless. In reality, almost 90% of such stories are nothing but fables to entertain primitive people. Best to move on from these childlike fables and nonsense.

Al-Noor
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#3

Unread post by Al-Noor » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:16 pm

now we know how much you know about islam good

btw why dont you start with a free copy of Quran with translation and start with basics instead of just being here which has no outcome.

<honest suggestion>

Btw who ever calls Quraanic stories childish and fables has denied the whole Quran and one who denies Quran has denied prophet Muhammed(s) and one who denies Muhammed(s). he has denied ALLAH.


Biradar
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Re: Just Wonder????

#4

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Al-Noor wrote:now we know how much you know about islam good

btw why dont you start with a free copy of Quran with translation and start with basics instead of just being here which has no outcome.

<honest suggestion>

Btw who ever calls Quraanic stories childish and fables has denied the whole Quran and one who denies Quran has denied prophet Muhammed(s) and one who denies Muhammed(s). he has denied ALLAH.

Sorry. But the reality is that these tales and fable are childish and only for simpletons. Hence, the sight of Muslims being barbarian, stone-age fools. If you really think that Allah put a tree in heaven just so Aadam would not eat from it, to test him, you are, sadly, a fool and simpleton. If you really think that Allah would do this, knowing the outcome before hand, again, you are a fool and simpleton. And, question to fools and simpletons: what was that tree anyway? Some simpleton and fools have said it was the wheat tree. Why wheat, you fools and simpletons?

However, that is not my point. The point is: the Quranic tales are really symbols to a deeper reality, which the prophet taught to his successor Maulana Ali. Hence, the saying that Muhammad brought the tanzeel and Ali brought the taweel. Those who cling to these stories as it they are true are like goats and sheep. Of course, one can remain a goat or sheep, a primitive stone-age barbarian, or choose to learn the reality and pierce the veils. Choice is yours.

Al-Noor
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#5

Unread post by Al-Noor » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:34 pm

Brother Birader,

look I am shia of Ali but when it comes to tawil I personally prefer to stick with what Quran says no matter how childish it sounds.

if Quran says it was tree, its tree for me.

I dont need any extra explanation for any thing, my Imaan is on gaib and I love to be like that.

I dont want many adam and I dont want many avatars of Ali as ismailis loves to talk.

for me Ali was a khalifah and first Imaam and sucessor of Muhammed(s). nothing more nothing less.


and btw Iblis was not shaitaan until he denied to repent to ALLAH for his crime, neither Adam was obeying his wife, Adam ate seed of wheat (gandum) by his own will and when he realized he has wrong he repented for it.

Al-Noor
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Re: Just Wonder????

#6

Unread post by Al-Noor » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:39 pm

this all extra explanations and extra tawil was added up years after time of Muhammed(s) and Imam Ali. and for muslims Quran should be the last word.

SBM
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Re: Just Wonder????

#7

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:44 pm

Being a man he listened to his wife and disobeyed Allaha
That was a tongue in cheek comment I suppose some people here take everything literally.If only they had paid attention to the first letter BEING, they should have realized that it was meant to be funny.

Al-Noor
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Re: Just Wonder????

#8

Unread post by Al-Noor » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:52 pm

its good that birader brought this up, this is exactly wrong with ismailis they try and mold ayat on their leaders and try to find some hidden meaning in every bit of Quran. yes offcourse Quran does have many meanings, but right now in absence of Imam its best for all muslims to stick with literal meaning of Quran instead of trying to put thier own meaning to ayats.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:03 pm

Hence, the saying that Muhammad brought the tanzeel and Ali brought the taweel.
And how many rotis do we need to make to get access to this taawil?

By the way, you will never see a post from biradar quoting a taawil from Ali for any ayah of the quran. He will give you the run around. Know why? Cause the tawwil will create many more questions than the ayahs themselves. Remeber the ayahs are from Allah, taawil was created by humans to explain ayahs that they couldnt make sense of. So if a tree in jannah appeared ridiculous to these idol worshippers, they created taawil that will say that the tree is an Adam or some such nonsense and then attribute it to Ali.

Al-Noor
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#10

Unread post by Al-Noor » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:27 pm

if we don't take tree as a tree some bohra amil will say SMB is the tree in tawil and MS AND QK are apples of that tree, and we all know what kind of spoiled apples they are.

Muhammed(s) brought Quran and Ali(A) taught us how to follow it in life. nothing more nothing less.

anajmi
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Re: Just Wonder????

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:55 pm

When Allaha created Adam and asked Shaitan to do Sajda, Shaitan refused, first sign of disobedience against most powerful
He created Eve and then told Adam not to go near that tree, Being a man he listened to his wife and disobeyed Allaha then most powerful
and then what here is Allaha, the most merciful what he does he punishes the entire mankind for not having enough control over his own subject. Is this fair....
This is the bases for entire Abrahamic faith and just because two of his ardent supporter did not follow his command he takes out his anger on entire Mankind..
Just wonder...
(please no quoting from Quran or Ahdith--just a logical explanation)
The most logical explanation for the above is that, the religion you are talking about, this "Abrahamic faith" is not Islam. There is nothing in the quran or the teachings of the prophet (saw) to suggest that this "Allaha" (are you talking about Allah?) is taking his anger out on mankind because of shaitaan and Adam. I could quote the Quran but you already displayed your fear of it.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#12

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm

Anajmi
I was talking about general Abrahamic faiths and trying to apply logic of current affairs in the world where people are killed in the name of religion. The biggest casualty are Muslims killed by Muslim vouching for same Allaha and Rasool.
What ticks me that in USA everyone in Muslim community wants to attend a seminar "Deception--Know the Shaitan" when we Muslims are acting like one.

Muslim First
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Re: Just Wonder????

#13

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:11 pm

I for one would like to see copy of Taweel by Hz Ali
Ayatollahs talk about it
Dai talk about it
Aha Khan suppose to know Taweel and unedited Quran
Please when we will see volume of Taweel?

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:12 pm

Well, you may be acting like the shaitaan, but i certainly am trying not to. And i havent killed any muslim and am hoping you havent either.

By the way, i am still trying to figure out the connection between your first post and the last. "Allaha" is angry because of shaitaan and Adam and hence he has muslims killing each other? Is that the logical explanation you were looking for?

humanbeing
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#15

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:18 am

taking a que from SBM's question.

When Allah commanded Iblees the angel to bow down to a Adam the man .. Iblees disobeyed (befarmaani) the command and was doomed shaitaan. Allah commanded Adam the man to not eat the apple from the tree, but Adam disobeyed (befarmaani) the command and was made a prophet !

Please correct me wherever wrong. Iblees was an angel in service of Allah for many years, while Adam was recently created, iblees complained of bowing down to younger being elder he was. Take this scenario in world, we would consider it disrespectful for an elder to bow down to younger lot.

We can discuss the infinite wisdom of Allah from Man's perspective, which I feel could be biased as the incident favors man over angel. if we are to give nuetral thought, what would be the arguements ?

Again, please correct me if wrong. Do Angels have will of their own ? if that is the case, how did Iblees practiced free will of disobedience !

zinger
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Re: Just Wonder????

#16

Unread post by zinger » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:28 am

humanbeing wrote:taking a que from SBM's question.

When Allah commanded Iblees the angel to bow down to a Adam the man .. Iblees disobeyed (befarmaani) the command and was doomed shaitaan. Allah commanded Adam the man to not eat the apple from the tree, but Adam disobeyed (befarmaani) the command and was made a prophet !

Please correct me wherever wrong. Iblees was an angel in service of Allah for many years, while Adam was recently created, iblees complained of bowing down to younger being elder he was. Take this scenario in world, we would consider it disrespectful for an elder to bow down to younger lot.

We can discuss the infinite wisdom of Allah from Man's perspective, which I feel could be biased as the incident favors man over angel. if we are to give nuetral thought, what would be the arguements ?

Again, please correct me if wrong. Do Angels have will of their own ? if that is the case, how did Iblees practiced free will of disobedience !
You have actually raised a question that has haunted me for so many years too.

the way i see it, Man is Allah's favourite creation, hence He was inclined to be a little more tolerant of his errors than those of His other creations.

That said, you have to be a little clear in the fact that Allah did not make Adam a prophet as punishment but sent him to Earth, where he became a prophet by virtue of being the first human being, sent by Allah, to walk on the Earth

The above 2 points are purely my opinion from a laymans POV.

the other part of your question too is one that has always made me wonder. We always hear that Angels have no free will. How is it then that Iblis managed to obtain free will to refuse to bow to Adam and obviously the Ashura part of Gabriel offering to help Imam Hussain AS, even though it was against the will of Allah (although the latter i will put down to creative exaggeration, again, my personal POV only.)

but yes, it would be really interesting to know this from the POV of people like Birader and Anajmi who are definitely more well read than me and others as well. Infact even James and Adam should chip in i say, unless these are things taught in Sabaks and they are bound by the oaths taken to not reveal what they learn

humanbeing
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Re: Just Wonder????

#17

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:45 am

zinger wrote: That said, you have to be a little clear in the fact that Allah did not make Adam a prophet as punishment but sent him to Earth, where he became a prophet by virtue of being the first human being, sent by Allah, to walk on the Earth
Well ok !, So adam disobeyed & punished to be sent on earth, which is surely a tough life as compared to heaven, yet Allah bestows Adam (mankind) with bounties of nature and elevated Adam as superior being and prophet. Also some say that Man is above angels ! because Man has free will while angel don’t. Or it could be. I don’t know about favoritism point, like man being favorite then angel kinda sounds childish. Angel served Allah much more than recently created man. While Iblees disobedience was punished to be doomed to hell and shaitaan forever. Some put forward this argument, the difference is because after the disobedient act. Adam was regretful of his mistake, while Iblees remained arrogant. Allah being merciful rewarded adam with prophethood, and iblees’s arrogance punished with shaitaanhood ! well that makes sense !

Well .. I guess that would be pretty much it .. this event could be a test from allah for angel and man both .. and a lesson for all of us .. case closed !

Ahh these stories are mysteriously fun in many ways .. Allah has absolute control over everything .. so it would be all staged orchestrated .. for moral stories for us to learn from ! infinite wisdom

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 am

Actually iblis was not an angel. He was a jinn. This fact is mentioned in surah kahf. Check it out.

SBM
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Re: Just Wonder????

#19

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:26 am

anajmi wrote:Actually iblis was not an angel. He was a jinn. This fact is mentioned in surah kahf. Check it out.

Was Jinn a creation of Allaha?'and if the answer is yes again we go back to my original question, how dare he disobeyed Allaha, the most powerful-master of universe.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:51 am

Even human beings are a creation of the same powerful-master of the universe. If they can disobey him, so can the jinn. They both have been given free will. Infact if you read the quran (i know you have quranic allergies) you will learn about a group of jinn coming to the prophet and listening to the quran.

By the way, i am talking about the easily available quran and not the biradari taawili quran for which you will have to do headstands in the middle of central park for 23 years and then read every book in every library in the world.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Just Wonder????

#21

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:01 pm

Muslim First wrote:I for one would like to see copy of Taweel by Hz Ali
Ayatollahs talk about it
Dai talk about it
Aha Khan suppose to know Taweel and unedited Quran
Please when we will see volume of Taweel?
I for one would like to see a copy of the Quran written by Allah Himself.

Prophet talked about it. His companions talked about it. Billions of words of explanation are written about it by anajmi and his disciples like Ibn Kathir etc.

Please when are we going to see the volume of the Quran written by Allah Himself?

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#22

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:12 pm

Anajmi
I am NOT allergic to Quran but sure allergic to all those who quote Quran at the drop of hat despite the fact that Quran is not explicit about every walk of life and has left many things for interpretation and that is why people ask questions.( e.g Quran doesnot tell you how to do salats explicitly-Now comes Ahdith lecture from Anajmi)
I suppose you can not debate with anyone without being sarcastic or making fun of people. Which Ayah in the Quran tells you that when some one asks a question you should always be sarcastic :evil:

anajmi
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Re: Just Wonder????

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:30 pm

Good, so now you understand why iblis was able to disobey the master of the universe right?

Fayyaaz,

In order to get that quran you will have to do headstands in the middle of central park for 46 years and do tasbeeh of ya ali for another 23 years. After that you will need to go to the library and search every book for taawil. And after you do all this send me a pm and i will send you the link to the quran you want. It will have color too.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Just Wonder????

#24

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:36 pm

All jinns have free will,
Human beings have free will,
Therefore, all human beings are Jinns.

fayyaaz
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Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Just Wonder????

#25

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:39 pm

All birds have two legs,
Human beings have two legs,
Therefore all human beings are birds.

Exception. Anajmi has three legs. You get to decide if he is a bird.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:43 pm

All jinns have free will,
Human beings have free will,
Therefore, all human beings are Jinns.
And finally we have the taawil from fayyaaz. :wink:

And SBM has his logical explanation.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Just Wonder????

#27

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:23 pm

The real difference between angels and human beings is this.

Angels do not know anything except what Allah has taught them. Human beings are perverse. They want to know even those things that Allah does not permit them to know. Just like Adam in paradise. That is why human beings suffer.

Human beings should take lessons from anajmi. He is closest to being an angel himself. Despite having a human's perversity, he has kept himself from knowing anything, at least by going through his contributions on this forum for the past 15 years . While humans go through heights of ecstasy and depths of despair because they cannot avoid pursuing knowledge, anajmi is a blessed soul always abiding in his Lord, happy in his knowledge of only what Allah has revealed to him. Worth emulating, no?

anajmi
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Re: Just Wonder????

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:37 pm

There is a disadvantage to knowing more. For example, i can easily quote quran and hadith to substantiate my claims and that is because I am ignorant. Once i know more like biradar and fayyaaz and their idols, i will think i know more and will keep telling people they know less but never actually telling them what they dont know cause i myself will not know what i am supposed to know, but now that i have told everyone i know more i have to keep dancing. Knowing more is tiring cause i need to keep dancing. :wink:

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Just Wonder????

#29

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:52 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
Muslim First wrote:I for one would like to see copy of Taweel by Hz Ali
Ayatollahs talk about it
Dai talk about it
Aha Khan suppose to know Taweel and unedited Quran
Please when we will see volume of Taweel?
I for one would like to see a copy of the Quran written by Allah Himself.

Prophet talked about it. His companions talked about it. Billions of words of explanation are written about it by anajmi and his disciples like Ibn Kathir etc.

Please when are we going to see the volume of the Quran written by Allah Himself?
There is no book written by God himself in any religion.

Here is Shia website article about history of Quran writing.

Read it carefully.

Some Old Manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol-8 ... lers-quran

Ismaili detractors are claiming that Ali's codex had Quran as revealed and notes on when and how each Aya was revealed. His notes also includes Tafseer and Taweel as taught by Prophet himself. All I am asking it where is it.
Aga Khan is suppose to be Quran and Batil-Al-Batil in its Taweel. Tell me in 1300 years of Ismaili Imam if One volume of Taweel exists?
You will not see unedited version of Quran.
If Quran was tempered Khalif Imam Ali would have changed it during his 5 years of Khilafat.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Just Wonder????

#30

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:03 pm

Muslim First wrote: There is no book written by God himself in any religion.
Yet you believe that Quran are God's words dictated to the Prophet. Granted that the Quran has remained unchanged since it was first written down but you cannot escape the fact that it was humans who wrote them.

There are many books, scrolls, tablets that have remained unchanged since they were first written down. Examples are the Rosetta Stone, the Hebrew Bible, Shruti literature of India comprising the Vedas, Vyass's Mahabharat and Valmiki's Ramayan. So, the fact that the Quran has remained unchanged over a long period is no reason to believe that they are God's words, unless you say all these others are too.

Just as you believe that Quran are God's words, some people believe that 'taweel' are Ali's or Imam's words. They have just not got round to writing them. Would you care to volunteer? You will need to become a scribe and companion of Ali or Imam just like Prophet had companions who wrote down the Quranic revelations.