Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#91

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:43 pm

anajmi wrote:Actually, I am not saying it. It is an ayah of the Quran. It is Allah's command to RASULULLAH S.A.W
RASULULLAH is a bashar of ALLAH swt
And you are also a bashar of ALLAH swt?
YES?



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#92

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:48 pm

Read the ayah


قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا(18:110
Say - I am but a "bashar" like you on whom was revealed via Wahyy that your God is the One and Only God. .........

مِّثْلُكُمْ means "like you".



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Imamat Debate

#93

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:57 pm

anajmi wrote:Read the ayah


قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا(18:110
Say - I am but a "bashar" like you on whom was revealed via Wahyy that your God is the One and Only God. .........

مِّثْلُكُمْ means "like you".
Don't go back stand at front and say
RASULULLAH saw is a bashar of ALLAH?
as you are bashar of ALLAH?
Is it correct?



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#94

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:32 pm

Every single one of us (believers in Allah) are a bashar of Allah.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#95

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:46 pm

anajmi wrote:Every single one of us (believers in Allah) are a bashar of Allah.
When ALLAH is going to send wahee on you? or sent already?



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#96

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:07 pm

Not every bashar gets wahyy. Again, read the ayah. He is a bashar like us but he is the one who gets wahyy. He feels hungry, he has to use the toilet, he feels pain when he gets hurt, the same as you or I.



SBM
Posts: 6209
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#97

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:24 pm

Seems like Sr Ruqqayya is getting little confused
No one should compares any ordinary Bahar to the Rutba of Prophet Mohammed and Imam Ali or the Sahabas but she refuses to acknowledge that all of them were HUMAN BEING and not FARISHTA OR JIN in the true meaning of FARISHTA OR JIN
Yes all of them had the Farishta like characters.
Dai is a human being specially the last few ones who killed Wild Animals for pure satanic pleasures and enjoy subjugating their followers and calling them like Slaves.
Prophet Mohammed took pleasure in FREEING Slaves while the current occupant of Saify Mahal gets pleasure in making slaves
Hope this clears up Sr Ruqqayya's confusion.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#98

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:16 pm

There was another smart idw on this board sometime back who suggested, in his infinite wisdom, that the panjatan were made of regular clay and the rest of us were made from play dough or something to that effect. A few more sabaqs and sister Ruqaiyya will be there.



fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#99

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:54 pm

There is no question that anajmi is a Wahhabi. He may deny it but he has all of a Wahhabi's characteristics. His constant denunciation of Shia esoteric interpretation of the Quran is just one of those characteristics.

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq dealt with 3 aspects of studying the Quran, reciting, understanding the historical context of the revelation and finally, pondering over esoteric significance of the revelation. He concluded that only Imams from the progeny of Muhammad and Fatima are privileged to comment on the esoteric aspects of the Quran. (He states his reasons but this is not the time to go into them).

Abbasid al-Mansur was aware of Sadiq's scholarship which was also acknowledged by two of his foremost students, Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik ibn Anas, founders of the two major Sunni schools of fiqh. al-Mansur sought allegiance from Imam Sadiq to legitimize his Calphate/Imamat. Not getting it, al-Mansur had Imam Sadiq poisoned.

Imam Sadiq's scholarship has not been lost. It has been the foundation of the Shia exegesis of the Quran which has been in continuous development since his death among his followers.

Coming to ayat 16:110, inadequate translations are taken as gospel by jaahils like anajmi. Yet it is not so clear what it states. There are two innama's in the ayat and they both convey slightly different meanings. Innama is two words inna, which introduces a proposition and ma which is a sort of negation. (innama and annama are identical except that anna becomes inna if preceded by qul)

How about this inerpretation?

"I am not just a bashar like you in that it has been revealed to me (but not to you) that you have no God except that your God is One."

Thus Muhammad is not a bashar like anajmi. That is clear, as if that needs to be clarified!



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#100

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:20 pm

Actually, according to fayyaaz, the prophet (saw) was either a conman or delusional cause there is no God!!

And his translation is completely wrong. My apologies, it is not his translation, but his interpretation. Ah, now I get it.

Anyway, there are more ayahs in the Quran, and I am sure fayyaaz will be able to find the exact opposite translation of the same.

For [even] before thy time, [O Muhammad,] We never sent [as Our apostles] any but men, whom We inspired - hence, [tell the deniers of the truth,] “If you do not know this, ask the followers of earlier revelation” - 21:7
and neither did We endow them with bodies that could dispense with food nor were they immortal. - 21:8

More examples of Innama with their real and fayyaazi interpretations

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ (2:11)
And when they are told, "Do not spread corruption on earth," they answer, "We are but improving things!" - 2:11 (actual)
And when they are told, "Do not spread corruption on earth," they answer, "We are not improving things!" - 2:11 (fayyaazi)

وَإِذَا لَقُواْ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ قَالُواْ آمَنَّا وَإِذَا خَلَوْاْ إِلَى شَيَاطِينِهِمْ قَالُواْ إِنَّا مَعَكْمْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُسْتَهْزِؤُونَ (2:14)
And when they meet those who have attained to faith, they assert, "We believe [as you believe]"; but when they find themselves alone with their- evil impulses, [10] they say, "Verily, we are with you; we were only mocking!" - 2:14 (actual)
And when they meet those who have attained to faith, they assert, "We believe [as you believe]"; but when they find themselves alone with their- evil impulses, [10] they say, "Verily, we are with you; we were not mocking!" - 2:14 (fayyaazi)

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَإِذَا قَضَى أَمْراً فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (2:117)
The Originator is He of the heavens and the earth: and when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, "Be" -and it is. - 2:117 (actual)
The Originator is He of the heavens and the earth: and when He wills a thing to be, He doesn't say unto it, "Be" -and it is. - 2:117 (fayyaazi)

and so on and so forth.
Last edited by anajmi on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#101

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:41 pm

A few more great examples.

فَإِنْ آمَنُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَا آمَنتُم بِهِ فَقَدِ اهْتَدَواْ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّمَا هُمْ فِي شِقَاقٍ فَسَيَكْفِيكَهُمُ اللّهُ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ (2:137)
And if [others] come to believe in the way you believe, they will indeed find themselves on the right path; and if they turn away, it is but they who will be deeply in the wrong, and God will protect thee from them: for He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing. - 2:137 (actual)
And if [others] come to believe in the way you believe, they will indeed find themselves on the right path; and if they turn away, it is not they who will be deeply in the wrong, and God will protect thee from them: for He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing. - 2:137 (fayyaazi)

2:168 and 2:169
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ كُلُواْ مِمَّا فِي الأَرْضِ حَلاَلاً طَيِّباً وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ
إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاء وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
O MANKIND! Partake of what is lawful and good on earth, and follow not Satan's footsteps: for, verily, he is your open foe, and bids you only to do evil, and to commit deeds of abomination, and to attribute unto God something of which you have no knowledge. (actual)
O MANKIND! Partake of what is lawful and good on earth, and follow not Satan's footsteps: for, verily, he is your open foe, and bids you not to do evil, and to commit deeds of abomination, and to attribute unto God something of which you have no knowledge. (fayyaazi)

إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخِنزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ بِهِ لِغَيْرِ اللّهِ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلاَ عَادٍ فَلا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (2:173)
He has forbidden to you only carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked; but if one is driven by necessity - neither coveting it nor exceeding his immediate need -no sin shall be upon him: for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. (actual)
He has not forbidden to you only carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked; but if one is driven by necessity - neither coveting it nor exceeding his immediate need -no sin shall be upon him: for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. (fayyaazi)

I think Ruqaiyya ben can be forgiven for every one of misunderstandings in the light of this knowledge displayed by fayyaaz.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#102

Unread post by asad » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 am

Maqbool wrote:Now don't worry about Imam. Very soon SMS will be projected as Imam by giving any vague reason and abde will except the same blindly.

Badri Lacewala has indicated this coming belief in his speech.
Due to progress in science and selective pregnancy options available, a male child can be guaranteed to a woman, The day is not far when SMS will be declared a Mustawda Imam. Right now Qasre ali is working on an overdrive to link the previous dai's to Imam Aamir, dont be surprised to find all the big ones in last 52 to be among the list. Notables will Syedna Hatim, Syedna Qutbuddin, Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin and from Abdul Qadir Najmuddin it will straight forward till SMS.



Biradar
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#103

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:42 am

asad wrote:
Maqbool wrote:Now don't worry about Imam. Very soon SMS will be projected as Imam by giving any vague reason and abde will except the same blindly.

Badri Lacewala has indicated this coming belief in his speech.
Due to progress in science and selective pregnancy options available, a male child can be guaranteed to a woman, The day is not far when SMS will be declared a Mustawda Imam.
According to Bohra theology, the position of da'i al-mutlaq is higher than that of a Mustawda Imam. The reason for this is that during the time of seclusion of the Imam, the da'i al-mutlaq occupies the position of the Imam, and is responsible for the same four offices as the Imam is. Mustawda Imams, on the other hand is only responsible for two of the four offices. Hence, he is, in effect a lower rank than da'i al-mutlaq.

I am not sure that the Kotharis will declare the da'i al-mutlaq to be the Imam. It is of course possible, but highly unlikely. More probable is that they will simply make the role of the Imam redundant. Already, the Imam is only a myth for them, something to be mentioned on occasion, but otherwise a minor irritant.

Several years ago, based on analysis of events, I had made the claim that the Kothar and the top Shezadas have concluded that there is no Imam, and they are all there is. Hence, they started a campaign to make the da'i a central figure in the community, degrading the position of the mazoon and mukasir. This began in the time of SBM, with Mr. Yusuf Najmudin laying the initial ground work, in his jealousy of his younger brother who was appointed mazoon. Almost 50 years later, the evil seeds which Yusuf Najmudin sowed, have flowered. Dawedar Muffadul Saifuddin is the fruit of that fitnat, and the shezadas the branches and leaves. Its unlikely that things will improve in the mainline Muffadalli Bohras, in fact, things will get worse. Of course, as someone said before, a community of sheep begets a government of wolves.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#104

Unread post by asad » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:48 am

Biradar wrote:
asad wrote:
Due to progress in science and selective pregnancy options available, a male child can be guaranteed to a woman, The day is not far when SMS will be declared a Mustawda Imam.
According to Bohra theology, the position of da'i al-mutlaq is higher than that of a Mustawda Imam. The reason for this is that during the time of seclusion of the Imam, the da'i al-mutlaq occupies the position of the Imam, and is responsible for the same four offices as the Imam is. Mustawda Imams, on the other hand is only responsible for two of the four offices. Hence, he is, in effect a lower rank than da'i al-mutlaq.

I am not sure that the Kotharis will declare the da'i al-mutlaq to be the Imam. It is of course possible, but highly unlikely. More probable is that they will simply make the role of the Imam redundant. Already, the Imam is only a myth for them, something to be mentioned on occasion, but otherwise a minor irritant.

Several years ago, based on analysis of events, I had made the claim that the Kothar and the top Shezadas have concluded that there is no Imam, and they are all there is. Hence, they started a campaign to make the da'i a central figure in the community, degrading the position of the mazoon and mukasir. This began in the time of SBM, with Mr. Yusuf Najmudin laying the initial ground work, in his jealousy of his younger brother who was appointed mazoon. Almost 50 years later, the evil seeds which Yusuf Najmudin sowed, have flowered. Dawedar Muffadul Saifuddin is the fruit of that fitnat, and the shezadas the branches and leaves. Its unlikely that things will improve in the mainline Muffadalli Bohras, in fact, things will get worse. Of course, as someone said before, a community of sheep begets a government of wolves.
They will start with sending feelers in the community that he is Mustawda, once people start calling him Imam, gradually he will transcend in Mustaqar also. For Ilahul Ard nothing is too big to claim.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#105

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:56 am

SBM wrote:Seems like Sr Ruqqayya is getting little confused
No one should compares any ordinary Bahar to the Rutba of Prophet Mohammed and Imam Ali or the Sahabas but she refuses to acknowledge that all of them were HUMAN BEING and not FARISHTA OR JIN in the true meaning of FARISHTA OR JIN
Yes all of them had the Farishta like characters.
Dai is a human being specially the last few ones who killed Wild Animals for pure satanic pleasures and enjoy subjugating their followers and calling them like Slaves.
Prophet Mohammed took pleasure in FREEING Slaves while the current occupant of Saify Mahal gets pleasure in making slaves
Hope this clears up Sr Ruqqayya's confusion.
You people cannot change my aqeeda,
This is confirmed!
ALLAH swt is ALLAH for me
and Awliyaullah is awliyaullah for me
I don't count them in bashar, as for me they were in the form of noor since the day first.

And I know MAULA ALI a.s never killed(hunted) any animal but DAI tus does this, still I cannot say DAAI tus is wrong because I don't know the complete terminology of shikaar in ISLAM.

Wassalam



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#106

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:32 am

These clowns can claim anything .. badri lace wala's speech was crude and raw without the lisaan-e-daawat flavours .. but what he said was not alarming for kothar administration .. amils have been dishing out theories, mojizaas and tasawwaurs such as these .. no uproar then .. i wonder why is ruqaiyya ben so upset at badri lace wala .. just cos he is a two bit yet rich abde .. if she is conscientious ..then she must listen carefully to amils and thier sugar coated deceptive bakwaas ..

when the topic gets hot .. she just claims ignorance to such speeches .. arre i am not promoting her to go and fight it out .. risking her life and safety and reputation .. but be honest with one self in the confines of thier own heart and anonymously on such forums.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#107

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:51 am

humanbeing wrote:These clowns can claim anything .. badri lace wala's speech was crude and raw without the lisaan-e-daawat flavours .. but what he said was not alarming for kothar administration .. amils have been dishing out theories, mojizaas and tasawwaurs such as these .. no uproar then .. i wonder why is ruqaiyya ben so upset at badri lace wala .. just cos he is a two bit yet rich abde .. if she is conscientious ..then she must listen carefully to amils and thier sugar coated deceptive bakwaas ..

when the topic gets hot .. she just claims ignorance to such speeches .. arre i am not promoting her to go and fight it out .. risking her life and safety and reputation .. but be honest with one self in the confines of thier own heart and anonymously on such forums.

Badri lacewala is not a mumeen, he is not !
I want to know about the script, was is it approved or he himself was making the story from his own mind.
I am not getting any reply of my araz on the same.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#108

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:53 am

Ruqaiyya wrote:
humanbeing wrote:These clowns can claim anything .. badri lace wala's speech was crude and raw without the lisaan-e-daawat flavours .. but what he said was not alarming for kothar administration .. amils have been dishing out theories, mojizaas and tasawwaurs such as these .. no uproar then .. i wonder why is ruqaiyya ben so upset at badri lace wala .. just cos he is a two bit yet rich abde .. if she is conscientious ..then she must listen carefully to amils and thier sugar coated deceptive bakwaas ..

when the topic gets hot .. she just claims ignorance to such speeches .. arre i am not promoting her to go and fight it out .. risking her life and safety and reputation .. but be honest with one self in the confines of thier own heart and anonymously on such forums.

Badri lacewala is not a mumeen, he is not !
I want to know about the script, was is it approved or he himself was making the story from his own mind.
I am not getting any reply of my araz on the same

I want to make a thread(topic) on Badri lacewala speech, who can help me to make it.
Is it chargeable or its free to make threads here? I am ready to pay.
I want to bring each and every mumeen on this thread and along with the proofs from Dawat ni kitaab I want to prove that man as a liar.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#109

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:13 am

I don't count them in bashar, as for me they were in the form of noor since the day first.
Dear Ruqiyya ben,

Then you are denying the quran which says that humans were created from 'teen'.

You can follow your aqidah but it is unislamic.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#110

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:13 am

Ruqaiyya wrote:I am not getting any reply of my araz on the same
Good one .. wish you all the best .. and please be kind to share the response on this forum .. also .. you can present your queries to local amils or shehzadaas .. some one gotta be available to answer your queries and put you out of misery .. the shafeek bawa and his raza-na-sahebo are always available for khidmat and kher khuwaa of pyara farzando .. they will answer your pleas ...

Ruqaiyya wrote:I want to bring each and every mumeen on this thread and along with the proofs from Dawat ni kitaab I want to prove that man as a liar.
wish you all the best .. and do invite more and more people to this forum .. also share audio and video of badri lacewala speech to as mnay as possible ..

i have not seen much uproar from commoners on his speech .. while shiekhs and amils frown when this was bought up for discussion .. i have been warned by my well wishers not to meddle with these thugs as situation is very sensitive and thier egoes are very naazuk .. these aamils and sheikhs got thier eyes and ears attentively open to smell rebel .. so you also be careful.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#111

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:38 am

humanbeing wrote:
Ruqaiyya wrote:I am not getting any reply of my araz on the same
Good one .. wish you all the best .. and please be kind to share the response on this forum .. also .. you can present your queries to local amils or shehzadaas .. some one gotta be available to answer your queries and put you out of misery .. the shafeek bawa and his raza-na-sahebo are always available for khidmat and kher khuwaa of pyara farzando .. they will answer your pleas ...

Ruqaiyya wrote:I want to bring each and every mumeen on this thread and along with the proofs from Dawat ni kitaab I want to prove that man as a liar.
wish you all the best .. and do invite more and more people to this forum .. also share audio and video of badri lacewala speech to as mnay as possible ..

i have not seen much uproar from commoners on his speech .. while shiekhs and amils frown when this was bought up for discussion .. i have been warned by my well wishers not to meddle with these thugs as situation is very sensitive and thier egoes are very naazuk .. these aamils and sheikhs got thier eyes and ears attentively open to smell rebel .. so you also be careful.

One Mulla s. I found with similar views on Badri's speech as me.
I don't have fear of anyone bhai when it comes to Mohammad Aale Mohammad a.s
Allah swt is with me ALI a.s is with me, I will not leave badri lacewala.



Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#112

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:45 am

anajmi wrote:
I don't count them in bashar, as for me they were in the form of noor since the day first.
Dear Ruqiyya ben,

Then you are denying the quran which says that humans were created from 'teen'.

You can follow your aqidah but it is unislamic.
I am the one who is following Quran and you are the one who is playing with it.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#113

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:37 am

Then you should not deny the ayah of the Quran which commands the prophet (saw) to say that he is a bashar like the rest of us. And please do not refer to fayyaaz's asinine interpretation. Here is another example of his colossal fail.

Surah Mulk 67:26

قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْعِلْمُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَإِنَّمَا أَنَا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِي

Say thou, [O Prophet:] "Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; and I am only a plain warner." (actual)
Say thou, [O Prophet:] "Knowledge thereof rests with God not alone; and I am not a plain warner." (fayyaazi)



Biradar
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#114

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:40 pm

Ruqaiyya Ji: I don't know if you are a troll or just very, very naive. You think that Lacewala can stand up in the maasjid and give a speech without approval? Specially when the occasion is one in which the (albeit fake) "da'i" is himself presiding? Please. Give us a break. You are going after someone, and very ineffectually at that, who has no real religious authority. However, there are many powerful Muffadali Dawaat theologians sitting right in his speech who say even more extreme and ridiculous things. For example, Mr Aliasgar Kalimuddin is the master-mind behind the "zaahir-baatin" theory, which has been throughly exposed by Taizoon Shakir, even with voice recordings. So, why blame Lacewala? This Mr. Aliasgar, even though a brother of SMB (RA), disobeyed his da'i by refusing to pray behind the mazoon of SMB (RA). Worse, he prevented others from doing so. He brainwashed the children of SMB (RA), along with his wicked brother Mr. Yusuf Najmuddin, and made them hatch a nefarious conspiracy which has led to the schism in the community. Come on, if you are serious about this, you should try and argue with Mr Aliasgar and others like him. In fact, your devta Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin himself is tainted with this wickedness as it was revealed by Taizoon Shakir that he was the central figure in that fitnati movement.

Also, you are arguing about nonsense stuff. Please first study first grade before talking about high level things. The prophet and the panjaatan were humans, like you and me. Its very clear in the Qur'an, as Anajmi has pointed out. Even Imam Jaafar as-Sadiq has said this in the chapter on waalaiyaat in the Daim al-Islam. He says that the Imams are humans, but have a special station. Don't do ghullu and fall into the trap of shirk. Yes, their essence is not material, but their physical manifestation (taajalli) is in the form of humans, with everything it implies. I.e. they need sleep, rest, food, fall sick and suffer death.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#115

Unread post by alam » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:28 pm

Ruqaaiyyaben
You seem obsessively focused on Badri lacewala with a vendetta overdone to the extent that he becomes null and void. Otherwise seemingly intelligent people like anajmi, al-Noor, SBM, and Biradar have fallen into this mafia kothar trap. It's a trap fellas. Soon Ruqaiyya will be void and kothar dreams that badri lacewala snafu too will be null and void.

Unless he is Ruqaiyya's husband and she has no way to pick a bone with him outside of this forum.



abde53
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#116

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:37 pm

Behen Ruqayya
You have made a Mojiza here, because of your argument, you even made Bhai Fayyaz and Bhai Biradar agree with Bhai Anajmi about your wrong interpretation of Quran For a long time they disagreed with each other but with your debate you did make a Mojiza, Moula Moula Muffadal Moula Zindabad.
Fayyaz bhai who confesses to be an atheist even agreed with Anjami Bhai. Wah bhi Wah..Ruqayya behen Moula nee barkat chey



fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#117

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:16 pm

“Prophet was just man like you and me in that he had to use the toilet”.

That is anajmi’s characterization of the Prophet.

However, exceptions (innama) must be made to account for a saying of the Prophet.

ةَ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ
قَالُوا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَتَى وَجَبَتْ لَكَ النُّبُوَّةُ قَالَ وَآدَمُ بَيْنَ الرُّوحِ وَالْجَسَدِ

From Abu Hurayra, he said:

“They said, ‘O Rasulullah, when did you discover Prophethood? He relied, ‘While Adam was between soul and body’. “

Not just that, you have to account for the whole episode of Meraj. That is within Muslim orthodoxy.

“innama al-ilm indillah” specifies Allah’s knowledge in relation to the Day of Judgment in the previous ayat. Of course, Allah has the knowledge of everything. This could be written, “inna al-ilm indillah".

Similarly, “innama ana nazirun Mubeen” limits Muhammad’s role in reference to the earlier ayat. Muhammad was not just a nazeer, he was also a Prophet.

Every word in the Quran is used for specific effect. Same word may be used for conveying multiple meanings which an exegete will draw out. A jaahil Wahhabi like anajmi cannot claim that a word used everywhere in the Quran has the same meaning, especially after referring to a frequency dictionary of the word and its translation into a non-Quranic language.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#118

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:29 pm

That is the beauty of the bohra interpretation of the Quran. Any word can be twisted into any meaning you want. Infact bohra execretegeses is so good that the same word can mean different things in different places based upon what you want it to imply.

You first figure out which idol you want to worship and the let the bohra excretegeses confirm it from the Quran!!

Some more examples

إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ إِخْوَةٌ
All believers are but brethren. (actual)
All believers are but not brethren. (fayyaazi)

إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ
TRUE BELIEVERS are only they who have attained to faith in God and His Apostle, (actual)
TRUE BELIEVERS are not only they who have attained to faith in God and His Apostle, (fayyaazi)
This could be written, “inna al-ilm indillah".
Do you know why it was written the other way? Just so that I could quote it over here and prove your excretegeses for what it is.

Let us analyze further

fayyaaz says that
Every word in the Quran is used for specific effect.
and yet in the same post he says about words of the Quran that
This could be written, “inna al-ilm indillah".
Nice excretegeses!!



fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#119

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:47 pm

anajmi wrote:
fayyaaz says that
Every word in the Quran is used for specific effect.
and yet in the same post he says about words of the Quran that
This could be written, “inna al-ilm indillah".
Idiot! Jaahil!

It could be written that way if you want to say Allah has all the knowledge. You might use innama if specific knowledge is being talked about.

Quran uses its own words. I am not here to better it. Just to expose your half-learning which leads you to condemn exegetes like Imam Jafer al-Sadiq, you fool.

You are now on my 'ignore' list.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#120

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:10 pm

You might use innama if specific knowledge is being talked about.
And in a previous post, his excretegeness said this
Innama is two words inna, which introduces a proposition and ma which is a sort of negation.
But I forgot that the same words have different meanings when you are excretegeting. This excretegeting business is extremely convenient.

It's a good thing that according to fayyaaz, Quran is actually from the mind of a human. And since it wasn't God that created this human, this human is actually the same as any other human. Well, according to fayyaaz, this man might even be delusional. Which would imply that fayyaaz actually thinks that Imam Jaffar Sadiq was a bigger liar than anajmi is, cause anajmi sticks to that which is logical and possible. Pray, how then can anajmi be a jaahil?

By the way, I am really glad I won't have to suffer your responses to my posts anymore.