Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

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haqhaiali
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:36 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#61

Unread post by haqhaiali » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:55 pm

Shahe a marda Shere a yazda kuwate parwar digar LA fatta lillah Ali LA saifeillah zulfikar
NAARE HAIDERI YA ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:10 pm

I used to shout the same slogans during my days of ignorance. I even carried Alams during Ashura in Kesar Baug/Palagali in dongri. But if there is hope for me, then there is hope for everyone.

mumin1st
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:55 pm

Reflections on Bardi Lace Speech Video

#63

Unread post by mumin1st » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:08 pm

786/92/110/21/53

Reflections on Bardi Lace Speech Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLIOUrNzqw

Badri Lacewala delivered a speech in Imam Hussain AS Ashara Majlis at Houston, TX USA during Moharram 1437 H / Oct 2015 CE

Would have not responded to this at all and would have ignored this also routinely as is the case with prior countless incidents.
But this one crossed all limits and boundaries!

The person said that,
"Rasulullah SAW did not guarantee Jannat unconditional"
"Mola Ali AS did not guarantee Jannat unconditional"
"Imam Hassan AS did not guarantee Jannat unconditional"
"Imam Husain AS did not guarantee Jannat unconditional"
"Other Imams after Husain AS did not guarantee Jannat unconditional"
but only 52nd Dai RA and 53rd Dai TUS guarantees Jannat unconditional.

as if this was not enough, he goes on and speaks about Imam Husain AS incident about a person without a child.
Also said Dai (SMB RA) gave countless children to even those who could not again degrading Panjatan Pak AS!

moreover, he gave example of Jaman and re-affirmed or confirmed that his speech was not by mistake but by approval.

But when he started degrading every member of Panjatan Pak AS categorically, could not believe what my eyes saw and my ears heard!

and he crossed all boundaries in vilifying Panjatan Pak AS.

This incident occurred in the presence of
a. Number of Qasre Aali Sahebo
b. Number of Bait e Zainy Sahebo
c. Number of Jamea Asateza (pl Ustaad)
d. Number of Ummal Kiram (pl Aamil)
e. Number of Mashaikh Kiram (pl Shaikh)
f. Number of Mafasih (pl Mulla)
g. Number of Muntasibeen Boys and Girls (pl Jamea Talabat ul Ilm)
h. Number of Mumineen and Muminaat
and yet NONE in the entire Majlis uttered a single word!

On Such an unprecedented insult of all members of Panjatan Pak AS and not a single soul cried out loud!

Can we call ourselves TRUE believers of Rasulullah SAW?
Who did not give up the mission of Dawat of Islam and Imaan in any circumstances?

Can we call ourselves TRUE believers of Man kunto Mawla na saheb ALI AS?
Who did not give up company of Rasulullah SAW in most difficult times when all left him SAW alone?

Can we call ourselves TRUE believers of Shehzadi of Rasulullah SAW molatena Fatema AS?
as if, This same crowd was watching Molatena Fatema AS when dushman was slapping her and slashing dirra on her by keeping mum!!!

Can we call ourselves TRUE believers of Imam Hassan AS?
as if, this same crowd was running away from Imam Hassan AS in the battle with Muawiya LA by keeping quiet!!!

Can we call ourselves TRUE believers of Imam Husain AS?
Who stood up against colossal power of Yazid LA despite all the odds!!!
Yet the same crowd was watching Imam AS loosing everything in Karbala moalla!!!

AS NOBODY OPPOSED HIM,
IN OTHER WORDS ALL PRESENT AGREED WITH HIM IN THIS MATTER!

Ya Allah (SWT) tu shaahid reh je aa logo par!
Wakafa billahe Shaheeda!

Em mehsoos thayu ke Yazid no koi saathidaar Imam Hussain AS ni Majlis ma aawi gayo chhe!

FYI, Now on the other hand
* Rasulullah SAW did confirm Jannat on every believer who recites Kalema tus Shahadat from one's heart!
* Kalema tus Shahadat ni baka Imam Husain AS na sabab chhe!
* Je kai Jaman tame jamo chho e Imam Husain AS na Dai taraf si chhe! to e badhu Imam Husain AS nu j chhe!
Go and Verify!

Not expecting or saying that anybody should have done anything illegal or any violence or mischief or disturbance.
BUT THIS GUY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SPEAK FURTHER AND STOPPED RIGHT AT THAT TIME.

May Allah (SWT) give taufiq to all to realize and understand what Panjatan Pak AS has done and contributed for all!

In above writing, All good is towards Maula TUS and All bad is to my short comings!

Wassalaam.

SBM
Posts: 6242
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Reflections on Bardi Lace Speech Video

#64

Unread post by SBM » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:29 pm

On Such an unprecedented insult of all members of Panjatan Pak AS and not a single soul cried out loud! (were you present at the said Majlis too?)
In above writing, All good is towards Maula TUS and All bad is to my short comings!
I hope your second sentence was a sarcastic remark otherwise Badri did with the raza of your moula to whom you are crediting all the goods while it should be other way around.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#65

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:48 am

anajmi wrote:I used to shout the same slogans during my days of ignorance. I even carried Alams during Ashura in Kesar Baug/Palagali in dongri. But if there is hope for me, then there is hope for everyone.
This line is the best weapon for you people to hunt people,
What if I say, couple of years ago during my days of ignorance I used to be like wahabis, but if there is hope for me, then there is a hope for everyone.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#66

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:07 am

anajmi wrote:Here are some ayahs that might be of use to you. Reflect upon them. (deleted Narrative for duplicity by Admin/Moderators)
Now in the light of the above ayahs look at the bohras. How much remembrance of God (dhikrullah) is there in their gatherings? And how much remembrance is there of their idols?
Now what if I say Copied copied copied from internet
Copy the verses of QURAN MAJEED but don't copy the meaning of it as it is not authentic, join mumeen scholars to understand the meaning of QURAN MAJEED you will improve then inshaallah.
By the way, who said that we don't remember Allah swt?
To remember ALLAH we don't need gatherings, to remember Awliyaullah we make gatherings.
Our remembrance of ALLAH is far better than you as we remember ALLAH like our Awliyaullah used to remember ALLAH.
b]And if you want to say WE SHOULD REMEMBER ONLY ALLAH and no one else[/b], then Nahjul balagha speaks it louder
MAULA ALI a.s said in one of his khutba mubarak,
RASULULLAH saw muslemeen ni jamaat ne bulaawi "GATHERINGS" karta aney aapna kabal je NABIYO guzra sagla ni sifat bayaan karta (Remembering ADAM NOOH IBRAHIM MOOSA ISAA YUSUF IDRIS YAAQUB is wrong for RASULULLAH s.a.w???)
MAULA ALI s.a.w sagla muslemeen ne jamey karta on Friday after NAMAZ aney RASULULLAH ni sifat bayaan karta, so MAULA ALI a.s was doing wrong remembering RASULULLAH on mimbar???
Now if we make gatherings to remember RASULULLAH AND MAULA ALI what's wrong in that?
Grow up!

qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#67

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:56 am

ben ruquaiya
sorry to disturb ur ongoing conversation.
just curious and want to enquire and clear my doubts if any.

nothing wrong in remembering awliya ullah.
in fact it should be done to increase ones faith and understanding and most importantly follow their path.
now -- do we really follow their path-- just introspect.

secondly did prophet while remembering previous prophets assigned any divine powers to them?
did maula ali while remembering prophet assigned any divine powers to HIM except with what Allah had bestowed unto him?

if u can provide with authentic verifiable source from Quran or sunnah or nahjul balaga i would be enlightened.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#68

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:57 am

qutub_mamajiwala wrote:ben ruquaiya
sorry to disturb ur ongoing conversation --- (deleted Narrative due to duplicity by Admin/Moderators)
if u can provide with authentic verifiable source from Quran or sunnah or nahjul balaga i would be enlightened.
I am sorry but can your repeat the question in other words as I didn't understand it completely, I will try my level best to answer you after that.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#69

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:18 am

If you are asking that RASULULAH s.a.w has stated about the divine power of prevoius PROPHETS or not

Then the answer is YES its true,

He has stated at many places about the divinity of ISA ALAYHISSALAM
Isa a.s was carrying divine powers which ALLAH s.w.t has.

RASULULLAH s.w.t used to quote the divinity of NABI ISA a.s from many ayaah of QURAN E KAREEM
As we all know about the miracles of ISA NABI a.s

Copying and pasting so there wont be anything from my personal words which creates doubt:

Creating birds from clay

ALLAH s.w.t mentions a miracle given to none other in the Quran but Jesus, one which is quite parallel to how God himself created Adam. This miracle was one which none can argue its greatness. God mentions in the Quran that Jesus says:

"I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission."
— Quran surah 3 (Al Imran) ayah 49[23]

The resurrection of the dead


"...and I bring to life the dead, by the permission of God."
— Quran surah 3 (Al Imran) ayah 49[23]

This, like the creation of a bird, was a miracle of incomparable nature, one which should have caused the Jews to believe in the prophethood of Jesus without doubt. Islam agrees with Christianity that Jesus brought a total of four people back from the dead. At first, Jesus brought three people back to life; the son of a widow of Nain, Jairus's daughter and Lazarus. These three had died during his lifetime. When the Jews saw this, they said: "You only resurrect those who have died recently; perhaps they only fainted." They then asked him to bring back to life Shem; son of Prophet Noah. Shem had been dead for centuries.

When Jesus asked them to show him his grave, the people accompanied him there. Jesus invoked God to bring him back to life and behold, Shem; son of Prophet Noah came out from the grave gray-haired. Jesus asked Shem: "How did you get gray hair, when there was no aging in your time?" Shem answered: "O Spirit of Allah, I thought that the Day of Resurrection had come; from the fear of that day, my hair turned gray."[18]

Same like MAULA ALI a.s used to state divine powers of RASULULLAH s.a.w telling the mojeza of shakkul qamar it is authentic as well.
So divinity was there in prophets undoubtedly.

Lekin prophets ni IBAADAT na thayi sake, we are not allowed to worship them, RASULULLAH s.a.w never said worship ISAA as he has divine powers like ALLAH.

Sorry if I couldn't get your question properly.

qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#70

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:47 am

ben ruquaiya

i know about these miracles.
but that dont imply divinity to them. rather they themselves have stated it is with permission of Allah.
so nothing divine about them per se.
as for Allah it is not miracle at all as He has power over everything and it is normal for him to do everything and he choses whoever He wishes to do anything.

the same goes on for Rasulallah also.
has maula ali mentioned any divine powers to him while remembering him?

again plz only authentic and verifiable source only from quran and hadith.

SBM
Posts: 6242
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#71

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:54 am

May I make a humble suggestion to Sr Ruqqiyya
Could you please shorten your posts since reading long posts causes one to loose interests. Also please do not follow into Al Noor and Anjami trap by using word Wahabi
For the record, Anajmi has declared many times in the past that he does not follow practice of Wahabism and despise rulers of Saudi Arabia and that is why you never seem him defending Wahabism or Saudis. He has been playing many people to rile up and one needs to read between the lines
Yes his use of Idol Worshipers and Grave Kissers and insulting the basic concept of Shia belief on Hidden Imam is overdone and I hope he can contribute important knowledge about Quran and Sunnah without attacking the central belief of Shia Muslims.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#72

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:03 am

qutub_mamajiwala wrote:ben ruquaiya

i know about these miracles.
but that dont imply divinity to them. rather they themselves have stated it is with permission of Allah.
so nothing divine about them per se.
as for Allah it is not miracle at all as He has power over everything and it is normal for him to do everything and he choses whoever He wishes to do anything.

the same goes on for Rasulallah also.
has maula ali mentioned any divine powers to him while remembering him?

again plz only authentic and verifiable source only from quran and hadith.

I am 100% agree that every single miracle shown by PROPHETS AND IMAMS was with the permission of ALLAH swt,
I don't have any doubt in that and they never said us, that we have to remember them because they have divine powers.

If you will go through the miracles of MAULA ALI a.s (Authentic Miracles) there is no miracle he has shown without praying 2 rakat SALAAH it shows he is getting the power from ALLAH s.w.t.

Taher Saifuddin Aqa r.a said many times, MAULANA ALI a.s ne suwaal karnaar always suwaal karta aap mojezaat zaahir kara pachi NAMAZ su kaam parho cho, su aap KHUDA nu shukar karo cho ke KHUDA si haajat karo cho.

MAULA ALI a.s jawab maa em farmaayu che, ke "JE ALLAH NA CHAAHE TO YADULLAH SU KARI SAKEY CHE, JEM TAMEY NA CHAAHO TO TAMARU HATH SU KARI SAKE CHE"

So what all they have is from ALLAH s.w.t undoubtedly. Its my faith!
We should remember them because whatever we are its because of them we should not remember them because they used to have divine powers,
I remember Awliyaullah because without them I would be an idol worshiper I have ONE GOD CONCEPT only because of Awliyaullah and Ambiya kiraam.

Wassalam

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#73

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:11 am

SBM wrote:May I make a humble suggestion to Sr Ruqqiyya
Could you please shorten your posts since reading long posts causes one to loose interests. Also please do not follow into Al Noor and Anjami trap by using word Wahabi
For the record, Anajmi has declared many times in the past that he does not follow practice of Wahabism and despise rulers of Saudi Arabia and that is why you never seem him defending Wahabism or Saudis. He has been playing many people to rile up and one needs to read between the lines
Yes his use of Idol Worshipers and Grave Kissers and insulting the basic concept of Shia belief on Hidden Imam is overdone and I hope he can contribute important knowledge about Quran and Sunnah without attacking the central belief of Shia Muslims.
Dear bhai,
Ehna important knowledge of Quran aney sunnah nu su karsu?
What we are going to do with his important knowledge,
when there is no HUBB-E-PANJETAN a.s Quran padhta padhta Kaaba maa dum nikli jaae to bhi conclusion is Jahannum.

EID E GHADEER is all about these factors only, RASULULLAH s.a.w has disclosed the way towards Jannah that day!
70,000 munafeqeen were also good at QURAN and carrying important knowledge as they were Ashaab e Rasool, su QURAN nu knowledge rakhwa waala aney ghadeer si moh pherwa waala logo waaste jannah che?

ZAHIRI QURAN ANE HAQEEQI QURAN NA DARMIYAAN SI RAASTO CHE JANNAH NU
je bewey maa se koi ek na saathey rehse Jannah is not possible.

Will take care of your warnings
Shukran

SBM
Posts: 6242
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#74

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:17 am

Ruqqayya
Can you provide any reference from Quran where all these miracles or Mojiza you are talking about Imam Ali and other Dais
Quran only talks about couple of Miracles about Moses, Jesus and Prophet Mohammed.
When Quran was revealed, Imam Ali was alive and Allaha could have mentioned his name just like he did with other Prophets (very few Prophets out of roughly 2 Lakhs) were given that powers of Miracle by Allaha
If SMB was in touch with Allaha thru Imam, did not he get proper guidance NOT TO CREATE RIOTS IN MUMBAI and cause death of innocent Abdes. Did not he get proper guidance from Allaha thru Imam to stop BADRI LACEWALA talking nonsense

It only proves that Imam Ul Zamman in not in touch with current and immediate past Dais of the time as Imam in his infinite wisdom thinks that they are not worthy of his representatives and decide not to guide them/

SBM
Posts: 6242
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#75

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:17 am

Will take care of your warnings
Sr Ruqayaa
I did not give you any WARNING I just gave you a SUGGESTION
Ehna important knowledge of Quran aney sunnah nu su karsu?
What we are going to do with his important knowledge,
Same thing can be said of SABAQ when all those Taawil bayans you learn in Sabaqs can not be shared with other what is the sense of those long important knowledge of your Sabaks too

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#76

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:15 am

In my opinion it is silly to be amused at miracles or mojizaas and stuff .. I mean .. why is it difficult to believe in something logical, sensible, simple, humble, honest and austere. Why do we have to depend or glorify miracles such as bringing dead to life, project the future, speak to animals and birds, shaft to snake etc to believe in divinity or message of god.

Be it prophets or anyother representative of god. A simple message, honest and fair conduct, character of the leader, courage in face of difficulty and many such humanly traits are far more inspiring to believe in them rather than some fancy tricks and click of hands miracles.

I don’t deny miracles from god, such as easing of difficult situations ; financial, medical, moral etc, which still test humanly traits of determination, courage, austerity, honest etc.

kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#77

Unread post by kimanumanu » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:20 am

I echo your sentiments humanbeing. In my opinion, the greatest miracle is each one of us living beings on this tiny, miniscule place we call earth inside the entire vast universe.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#78

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:23 am

SBM wrote:Ruqqayya
Can you provide any reference from Quran where all these miracles or Mojiza you are talking about Imam Ali and other Dais
Quran only talks about couple of Miracles about Moses, Jesus and Prophet Mohammed.
When Quran was revealed, Imam Ali was alive and Allaha could have mentioned his name just like he did with other Prophets (very few Prophets out of roughly 2 Lakhs) were given that powers of Miracle by Allaha
If SMB was in touch with Allaha thru Imam, did not he get proper guidance NOT TO CREATE RIOTS IN MUMBAI and cause death of innocent Abdes. Did not he get proper guidance from Allaha thru Imam to stop BADRI LACEWALA talking nonsense

It only proves that Imam Ul Zamman in not in touch with current and immediate past Dais of the time as Imam in his infinite wisdom thinks that they are not worthy of his representatives and decide not to guide them/
Dear bhai,

You asked When Quran was revealed IMAM ALI a.s was alive and ALLAH could have mentioned his name
Does it mean ALLAH is so limited that he could only write in QURAN about those who were alive that time?

QURAN has everything from ADAM to khaatam in it, though IMAM ALI was alive that time or not, IMAM ALI is there in the QURAN
The Quran itself has spoken about Imam Ali (a.s.).

The most important verse that has spoken about him, is verse 55 of Surah Ma’idah which says: “Only Allah is your Waliyy (one who is in charge of everything) and His apostle and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate while bowing down in rokoo’.”It has been stated in both Shia and Sunni history, tafsir and hadith books that this ayah was revealed when Imam Ali (a.s.) gave his valuable ring as charity to a needy person while bowing down in Rukoo’. This verse is only talking about Imam Ali (a.s.) and no one else is meant by this ayah. So, although Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran, yet he has clearly been spoken of in it.

We have aqeeda on 1,24,000 Ambiya e kiraam, QURAN mentions only 25 or 26
Does it mean we should believe on the count which QURAN says ?

QURAN says about shahadat e IMAM HUSAIN a.s?
Do you believe on Shahadat e IMAM HUSAIN a.s?
IMAM HUSAIN a.s was alive that time too along with MAULA ALI a.s

QURAN doesn't mention everything, its aim is different, it has the subjects which concern human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship, transactions, law, etc., but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time, it provides guidelines and detailed teachings for a just society, proper human conduct, and an equitable economic system, the miracles of prophets have been mentioned because it comes under the nahaj of nubuwat.

There are at least two reasons why Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran. First, because the Quran usually expresses general matters and instructions, and doesn’t get very specific.

For example, Imam Sadiq (a.s.) was asked why the imams haven’t been named in the Quran. He answered that concerning wilayah (religious authorithy), the Quran has acted the same way that it has regarding salat, zakat, and hajj. The Quran hasn’t been very specific on how to perform these acts, and has only said that they have to be done.

The Prophet is the one who has thoroughly explained how these acts must be performed. In the same way, the Prophet has become very detailed in relation to those succeeding him, without any need for them to be explicitly named in the Quran. The second of many reasons for the above-mentioned issue is that since wilayah was a controversial issue, and there were big chances that others would disagree with it, it was much better and safer for the Quran to express it implicitly so that it wouldn’t cause them to go against the Quran and Islam itself!

It’s very clear that this isn’t to the benefit of the Muslim Ummah and is a good reason for not mentioning the names of the imams in the Quran. In other words, if the appointment of Imam Ali as successor was to be clearly mentioned in a verse of the Quran, there was a possibility that those who opposed it would somehow falsify or get rid of the verse in order to destroy all of the evidence showing that he is the true successor to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.). As a result, Islam would lose its value as the final religion for mankind in addition to the Quran losing its value as an eternal divine book

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#79

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:14 pm

The names of the Imams are not mentioned in the Quran because they are not needed. If a person follows the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) he can become an Imam. The seerat of the prophet (saw) has been captured in detail. A person who follows on the footsteps of the prophet (saw) can become an Imam. Hence, there is no need for names. If names had been mentioned and if the named Imam turned out to be a coward and went into hiding, what then? Second, if names had been mentioned, people wouldn't be motivated to become Islamic leaders.
The most important verse that has spoken about him, is verse 55 of Surah Ma’idah which says: “Only Allah is your Waliyy (one who is in charge of everything) and His apostle and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate while bowing down in rokoo’.”It has been stated in both Shia and Sunni history, tafsir and hadith books that this ayah was revealed when Imam Ali (a.s.) gave his valuable ring as charity to a needy person while bowing down in Rukoo’.
Have you ever seen any bohra give charity while in Rukoo? Have you, Ruqaiyya Ben, ever given charity in Rukoo? Has any bohra ever seen any Dai give charity in Rukoo? (albeit, the bohra Dai would not be objectionable to receiving envelopes in Rukoo or Sujood or might even postpone namaz for it). Why doesn't a single bohra follow this great act of Ali which has been mentioned in the Quran? It's not like the Quran prohibit this act is it? One might say that beggars don't come in the masjid. But that is because you don't let them come in. That is why they wait outside. Infact, you should let them come in so that you can carry out this great act of Ali. Why don't you?

As far as taking awliyahs is concerned, this ayah has been mentioned before on this thread.

أَفَحَسِبَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَن يَتَّخِذُوا عِبَادِي مِن دُونِي أَوْلِيَاء إِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ نُزُلًا (18:102

Do the kafir think that they can take my slaves as their awliyahs against me? We have readied hell to welcome all who [thus] deny the truth!

Who are these slaves that Allah is talking about? Are the panjatan slaves of Allah? Who are the people who have taken them as their awliyahs? Do you know of any kafir who has taken Allahs slaves as their awliyahs against Allah?

Now, coming to miracles. Many people used to come to the prophet (saw) asking for miracles. They were given a stern reply.

And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers. - 2:145

And they say, "Why has no miraculous sign been bestowed on him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say: "Behold, God has the power to bestow any sign from on high." Yet most human beings are unaware of this - 6:37

Now they swear by God with their most solemn oaths that if a miracle were shown to them, they would indeed believe in this [divine writ]. Say: "Miracles are in the power of God alone." And for all you know, even if one should be shown to them, they would not believe - 6:109

NOW THEY [who deny the truth] are wont to ask, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say, then: "God's alone is the knowledge of that which. is beyond the reach of human perception. Wait, then, [until His will becomes manifest:] verily, I shall wait with you!" - 10:20

However, they who are bent on denying the truth [refuse to believe and] say, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed on him from on high by his Sustainer?" [But] thou art only a warmer; and [in God] all people have a guide. - 13:7

NOW THOSE who are bent on denying the truth [of the Prophet's message] say, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say: "Behold, God lets go astray him who wills [to go astray], just as He guides unto Himself all who turn unto Him- - 13:27


So, the bottom line is this, miracles prove nothing. Miracles are time and witness bound. Musa (as) turned a stick into a snake, but that miracle was believed in only by those who witnessed it. And infact, even those who witnessed Musa (as) split the sea, turned around and betrayed him by making an idol of the calf. We believe in these miracles because they are mentioned in the Quran. None of the miracles performed by the Prophet (saw) got mentioned in the Quran. Why? By the way, Meraj is not a miracle performed by the prophet (saw). First is so that it can be established that the Quran is from the same Lord, the Lord of Musa and Isa. Second reason was because the Quran itself was the biggest miracle given to the prophet (saw).

Heck, even Sirdi Wale Sai Baba performed miracles in Amar Akbar and Anthony. That doesn't hold any water.

anajmi
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#80

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:23 pm

What if I say, couple of years ago during my days of ignorance I used to be like wahabis, but if there is hope for me, then there is a hope for everyone.
Then we would know that you are lying. You will find many bohras turning into "wahhabis" but you won't find single wahhabi turning into a bohra!!

Ruqaiyya
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#81

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:20 pm

anajmi wrote:The names of the Imams are not mentioned in the Quran because they are not needed. If a person follows the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) he can become an Imam. The seerat of the prophet (saw) has been captured in detail. A person who follows on the footsteps of the prophet (saw) can become an Imam. Hence, there is no need for names. If names had been mentioned and if the named Imam turned out to be a coward and went into hiding, what then? Second, if names had been mentioned, people wouldn't be motivated to become Islamic leaders.
The most important verse that has spoken about him, is verse 55 of Surah Ma’idah which says: “Only Allah is your Waliyy (one who is in charge of everything) and His apostle and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate while bowing down in rokoo’.”It has been stated in both Shia and Sunni history, tafsir and hadith books that this ayah was revealed when Imam Ali (a.s.) gave his valuable ring as charity to a needy person while bowing down in Rukoo’.
Have you ever seen any bohra give charity while in Rukoo? Have you, Ruqaiyya Ben, ever given charity in Rukoo? Has any bohra ever seen any Dai give charity in Rukoo? (albeit, the bohra Dai would not be objectionable to receiving envelopes in Rukoo or Sujood or might even postpone namaz for it). Why doesn't a single bohra follow this great act of Ali which has been mentioned in the Quran? It's not like the Quran prohibit this act is it? One might say that beggars don't come in the masjid. But that is because you don't let them come in. That is why they wait outside. Infact, you should let them come in so that you can carry out this great act of Ali. Why don't you?

As far as taking awliyahs is concerned, this ayah has been mentioned before on this thread.

أَفَحَسِبَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَن يَتَّخِذُوا عِبَادِي مِن دُونِي أَوْلِيَاء إِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ نُزُلًا (18:102

Do the kafir think that they can take my slaves as their awliyahs against me? We have readied hell to welcome all who [thus] deny the truth!

Who are these slaves that Allah is talking about? Are the panjatan slaves of Allah? Who are the people who have taken them as their awliyahs? Do you know of any kafir who has taken Allahs slaves as their awliyahs against Allah?

Now, coming to miracles. Many people used to come to the prophet (saw) asking for miracles. They were given a stern reply.

And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers. - 2:145

And they say, "Why has no miraculous sign been bestowed on him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say: "Behold, God has the power to bestow any sign from on high." Yet most human beings are unaware of this - 6:37

Now they swear by God with their most solemn oaths that if a miracle were shown to them, they would indeed believe in this [divine writ]. Say: "Miracles are in the power of God alone." And for all you know, even if one should be shown to them, they would not believe - 6:109

NOW THEY [who deny the truth] are wont to ask, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say, then: "God's alone is the knowledge of that which. is beyond the reach of human perception. Wait, then, [until His will becomes manifest:] verily, I shall wait with you!" - 10:20

However, they who are bent on denying the truth [refuse to believe and] say, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed on him from on high by his Sustainer?" [But] thou art only a warmer; and [in God] all people have a guide. - 13:7

NOW THOSE who are bent on denying the truth [of the Prophet's message] say, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?" Say: "Behold, God lets go astray him who wills [to go astray], just as He guides unto Himself all who turn unto Him- - 13:27


So, the bottom line is this, miracles prove nothing. Miracles are time and witness bound. Musa (as) turned a stick into a snake, but that miracle was believed in only by those who witnessed it. And infact, even those who witnessed Musa (as) split the sea, turned around and betrayed him by making an idol of the calf. We believe in these miracles because they are mentioned in the Quran. None of the miracles performed by the Prophet (saw) got mentioned in the Quran. Why? By the way, Meraj is not a miracle performed by the prophet (saw). First is so that it can be established that the Quran is from the same Lord, the Lord of Musa and Isa. Second reason was because the Quran itself was the biggest miracle given to the prophet (saw).

Heck, even Sirdi Wale Sai Baba performed miracles in Amar Akbar and Anthony. That doesn't hold any water.

Amar akbar anthony? Sirdi waale sai baba?
You are so cheap, and shame on SMB who is still favoring you and stopping us to call you Wahabi.

Your bottom lines mashaAllah, (MIRACLES PROVE NOTHING) greattttt!
Shakkul Qamar proved nothing yes?
Injecting lives in dead bodies proved nothing?
Meraaj is not proving anything?

Your mind is completely dead!!
You are out of your senses!!
Completely lost.

You never see the subject of threads, you just start with your own wahabiyat.
Awliyaullah's talking is going on and you are defining it with Amar akbar anthony and sirdi waale saai baba?

Which deen you have? You jealous man! Hasad you have from PANJETAN PAAK a.s
Hasad you have from MY MAULA ALI a.s

Hasad you have from DAAI tus

The fire of Hasad is burning you from inside out.
You have no tehzeeb to speak no taazim of these holy talks..

You bring hanuman raam sita saai baba and movies.
Miracles of MOHAMMAD AAL E MOHAMMAD you count with these cheap stuff.

You are mad.
You are spoiling aqeedas here.
Big shame on you and your lines which doesn't make any sense. ONLY WASTE OF TIME.

anajmi
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:34 pm

It's too bad you chose not to respond to anything I posted. But I am still interested in answers. I promise I won't ask again.

Have you ever seen any bohra give charity while in Rukoo? Have you, Ruqaiyya Ben, ever given charity in Rukoo? Has any bohra ever seen any Dai give charity in Rukoo? (albeit, the bohra Dai would not be objectionable to receiving envelopes in Rukoo or Sujood or might even postpone namaz for it). Why doesn't a single bohra follow this great act of Ali which has been mentioned in the Quran? It's not like the Quran prohibit this act is it? One might say that beggars don't come in the masjid. But that is because you don't let them come in. That is why they wait outside. Infact, you should let them come in so that you can carry out this great act of Ali. Why don't you?

canadian
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#83

Unread post by canadian » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:39 pm

Ruqayya wrote,
"You are so cheap, and shame on SMB who is still favoring you and stopping us to call you Wahabi."


Freudian slip? Or did she mean SMB should be ashamed for bestowing nuss on MS who allowed Mr. Badri Lacewala to belittle panjatan paak.? :D

SBM
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#84

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:52 pm

^
Canadian Bhai :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SBM
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#85

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:58 pm

Ruqqayya
Do you any proof that Anajmi is Wahabi? He has never profess to favor nor has he ever declared himself to be Wahabi.
Just like you call Wahabi in derogatory way you should call the same to the followers of your leader SMS who kept quiet while Badri was mocking fun of Ahl e bayt
Atleast Anjami did not elevate an uneducated-low grade Dai above Prophet and Ahl e Bayt.
I would take a smart enemy like Wahabi Anjami (your words not mine) over a stupid, ignorant friend like Badri Lacewala
BTW did not you notice that even Fayyaz who is an ardent opponent of Anajmi had something nice to say and nothing about you.
Well I do hope you come with better and convincing posts to change the mind instead of shouting Wahabi Wahabi at the every post.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#86

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:13 pm

SBM wrote:Ruqqayya
Do you any proof that Anajmi is Wahabi? He has never profess to favor nor has he ever declared himself to be Wahabi.
Just like you call Wahabi in derogatory way you should call the same to the followers of your leader SMS who kept quiet while Badri was mocking fun of Ahl e bayt
Atleast Anjami did not elevate an uneducated-low grade Dai above Prophet and Ahl e Bayt.
I would take a smart enemy like Wahabi Anjami (your words not mine) over a stupid, ignorant friend like Badri Lacewala
BTW did not you notice that even Fayyaz who is an ardent opponent of Anajmi had something nice to say and nothing about you.
Well I do hope you come with better and convincing posts to change the mind instead of shouting Wahabi Wahabi at the every post.
It means you are not reading his posts properly, read it proof is there, he cannot speak anything about ALLAH s.w.t and most of his lines declares prophet and Imams as general human beings like you and me, what else you want as a proof.
The person is comparing Awliyaullahs as Hanuman and saibaba and you are taking him as a hero and supporting him.
You all are same I think.

Moderator-2
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Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

#87

Unread post by Moderator-2 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:20 pm

This topic originally started in "Ashara Oppression 2015" thread, which derailed into debate on Imamat after Badri Lacewala speech.

anajmi
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#88

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:31 pm

most of his lines declares prophet and Imams as general human beings like you and me, what else you want as a proof.
Allah commands the prophet (saw) to say this in the Quran

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا(18:110
Say - I am but a "bashar" like you on whom was revealed via Wahyy that your God is the One and Only God. .........

وَيَقُولُونَ مَتَى هَذَا الْوَعْدُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ (67:25)
But they [only] ask, "When is this promise to be fulfilled? [Answer this, O you who believe in it,] if you are men of truth!" - 67:25
قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْعِلْمُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَإِنَّمَا أَنَا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (67:26)
Say thou, [O Prophet:] "Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; and I am only a plain warner." - 67:26


These are lines in the Quran.

Ruqaiyya
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#89

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:49 pm

anajmi wrote:
most of his lines declares prophet and Imams as general human beings like you and me, what else you want as a proof.
Allah commands the prophet (saw) to say this in the Quran

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا(18:110
Say - I am but a "bashar" like you on whom was revealed via Wahyy that your God is the One and Only God. .........

وَيَقُولُونَ مَتَى هَذَا الْوَعْدُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ (67:25)
But they [only] ask, "When is this promise to be fulfilled? [Answer this, O you who believe in it,] if you are men of truth!" - 67:25
قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْعِلْمُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَإِنَّمَا أَنَا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (67:26)
Say thou, [O Prophet:] "Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; and I am only a plain warner." - 67:26


These are lines in the Quran.
What is this now?
You want to say RASULULLAH S.A.W is like us ?
What is this like you in red?

anajmi
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Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#90

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:57 pm

Actually, I am not saying it. It is an ayah of the Quran. It is Allah's command to RASULULLAH S.A.W