God and Religion

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#61

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:33 pm

JC,

If you understand what was posted, please explain, cause I have no clue vis-vis Islam. I am trying to think if 12:44 was before 21:43 then what was the point of 12:34 vis-a-vis 16:22. Now if it hadn't been for 34:44, having 55:89 where it would've made sense but since 59:22 was stated before the emergence of 9:11 what is the context of having one before the other? So what is the difference between marriage and abortion?

You are supposed to make sense of this post vis-a-vis the posting of the human excreta.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#62

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:44 am

006.151
YUSUFALI: Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

17:31
017.031
YUSUFALI: Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.

According to the human excreta, the above two verses are contradictory - "one calls for justice and the other reputes it"!! Obviously the human excreta has no clue. He picks up verses just like I did in my senseless post earlier.

saif
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#63

Unread post by saif » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:32 am

Danish:

Not only you are not a Muslim and an anti-Muslim, you are also a liar. You had earlier indicated to us:

"O well, I guess it's time for me to take a break"

You lied and you are still carrying on like a broken and boring record (CD)?.

What's this obsession on culinary matters? - half-baked; fully cooked!!

Are you a "bhathyara" or a chef? Perhaps by force of habit? Because I am NOT!!.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#64

Unread post by like_minded » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:29 am

Man has habitually made images, especially in the religious world, All organized, accepted, respectable religions have always had some kind of image, and mankind with the help of priest, has always worshipped the symbol, the idea, the concept and so on.. Because in the worship he finds comfort, safety, security.. But the image is the projection of thought, Man apparently seeks security in it, however false the images are, without any reality.

Mind wants security, belief and it does not want to be disturbed.. and therefore becomes lazy. To find the truth we have to live tremendously, with no security other than the security in intelligence that comes through insight.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#65

Unread post by like_minded » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:02 am

May be you are living in the world of illusion. But I can say for myself that Allah exist for sure and there is no doubt about it. Doubt and illusions are the words for non-believers. For believers Allah is real and the only truth..

Bro Areef

There is no path to truth (God), Truth is not to be understood through any system, through any path. A path implies a goal and therefore a conditioning of the mind and heart by that end, which necessarily demands discipline, contril and aquisitiveness.. All this becomes a burden and it robs you of freedom and conditions your actions in daily life.

Truth is something to be understood, to be discovered in every action, in every thought, in every feeling, however trivial, however transient.. To discover that your thought is conditioned and limited is truth... That very discovery sets your mind free from limitations.

Truth is not something which is gathered, accumulated, stored up, upon which you can rely as a guide, If you do, it is only another form of the same thing, another form of possession. It is very difficult for the mind not to acquire, not to store and when you realize this, you will find out what an extraordinary thing truth is.

The fact is that truth is life and life has no permanency.. Life has to discovered from moment to moment, from day to day.. It cannot be taken for granted.. Life is something to be discovered.. Put aside the things you have found (religion, you customs, rituals) for they are not life.. If you are caught in those things, you will never discover life.

The man who says he knows is already dead.. But the one who thinks "I dont know" who is discovering, finding out.. who is not seeking an end.. not thinking on terms of arriving or becoming.. such a man is living.. and that living is truth.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#66

Unread post by like_minded » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:06 am

Originally posted by Alislam:
You have completely lost me

-- If you want we can connect, as both are from Bangalore ;)
Awwww.. thats fabulous!!!! I thought you were from Hyderabad... Anyway, I'd surely like to meet you sometime.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#67

Unread post by Alislam » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:20 am

Awwww.. thats fabulous!!!! I thought you were from Hyderabad... Anyway, I'd surely like to meet you sometime.

--- Yes, i'm basically from Hyderabad but working with a Telecom major in Bangalore.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#68

Unread post by like_minded » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:26 am

Originally posted by Alislam:
Awwww.. thats fabulous!!!! I thought you were from Hyderabad... Anyway, I'd surely like to meet you sometime.

--- Yes, i'm basically from Hyderabad but working with a Telecom major in Bangalore.
Nice to hear that mate.. I reside in south Bangalore.. which part are you from?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#69

Unread post by Danish » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:32 am

006.151
YUSUFALI: Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

17:31
017.031
YUSUFALI: Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.

6:151 gives room to breathe while 17:31 does not.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#70

Unread post by like_minded » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:12 am

Who told you God is Unknown? Just cos you have not seen god does not mean he is unknown. Also, someday if you see god will you believe in him?? I am sure you will still doubt him thinking whether he is real god or not... So if you do not believe in something no one can change your mind.

Bro Areef

God is nothing but an image/idea created in your sub-conscious mind over years of conditioning.. and you hang on to it because otherwise you dont see a meaning in your existence.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#71

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:55 am

Originally posted by saif:
Not only Danish is a non-Muslim and anti-Muslim, he now admits being an atheist ("Just the thought of hell and this idiotic notion of this supreme man-made deity and his holy books literally weaken ones mind from rational thought and reason because they live their lives in fear brought about by once-upon-a-time prophets and messengers of gods and goddesses followed by the twisted versions of unscrupulous mullahs and priests who are the real thugs of our generation in contempt of natural civility and justice.")

and in his own words "an emotional monster" - confused, schizophrenic and neurotic!!

This site is not for the likes of Danish and people who wish to ape him. This is an Islamic site, predominantly to discuss the Progressive Bohras and their struggles against the mainstream Kothar and their sycophants - as the name indicates. If you wish to indulge in mindless Islamophobic or atheist discourses or your so-called intellectual masturbation, please find yourselves other forums to satisfy your depraved and plagiarised opinions and discourses.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#72

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:58 am

Sorry, Mistakenly I posted blank. I am completely agreed with brother Saif. This forum is for Bohra reform and such kind of posting should be avoided as it is giving a wrong pictures to other readers.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#73

Unread post by Danish » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:35 am

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
I am completely agreed with brother Saif. This forum is for Bohra reform and such kind of posting should be avoided as it is giving a wrong pictures to other readers.
The very basic and foremost rule you and your ilks must learn is to stop LYING and DECEIVING. You can't form a JUST reform system with people like you. Second, learn to discuss ANY pertinent subjects with OPEN MINDEDNESS and REASON (which you lack) instead of dragging and derailing them into vindictive nature and foolish ramblings (which you love). If you can't stand criticisms on belief systems and worldly matters, then the purpose of your reformation becomes useless.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#74

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:51 pm

Danish,

17:31 is talking about your children. You want the quran to give you room to kill your own children, you sick piece of crap!!

I think my point about your understanding of the quran has been well made.

Admin
Posts: 662
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#75

Unread post by Admin » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:50 pm

We've moved this topic to his forum.

Danish,

You've been give a free reign on this forum but please use this freedom with responsibility and sensitivity. You're welcome to express yourself like everybody else, and while you may enjoy that right please remember that you have no right to offend the sentiments of people who hold Islam and its Prophet dear. (This also applies to those who call Sayedna names.) Criticizing sacred things is one thing and calling them names is quite another. While we accept the former we cannot tolerate the latter. You've to learn to separate your anger from your ideas. Let this be a warning to you.

Also, please do not confuse "reforms" with "free thinking". The reform movement has a limited agenda of bringing social and administrative reforms in the community within the framework of Dawoodi Bohra faith. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not follow that those who support the reform movement are also naturally inclined to question the basics of their faith. Challenging religion, faith, God and such are philosophical and ultimately individual matters and fall beyond the pale of the reform movement.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#76

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:13 pm

There is no path to truth (God), Truth is not to be understood through any system, through any path.
God is nothing but an image/idea created in your sub-conscious mind over years of conditioning.. and you hang on to it because otherwise you dont see a meaning in your existence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LM,

I beg to differ on this. According to me the GRT prophets and saints knew the true meaning of life only because they knew the existence of god. It is god who had shown them the right path and meaning of their existence. It is not the other way around as you put it i.e. people started believing in god since it would add a meaning to their existence. The reason for my belief is that it is god who has created us as a part of the universe and not the other way round. Hence, believing in god is believing in the source of our creation. Which is quite logical in fact.

saif
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#77

Unread post by saif » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:43 pm

Admin:

Thanks for your gracious and judicious observation and intervention.

Hopefully to close this missive, please read the following article:

A Messiah for our time by Khushwant Singh

THE TELEGRAPH, Calcutta

Saturday, February 16, 2008


Prejudice is like poison. Unless purged out of one's mind in early stages, it can spread like cancer and make one incapable of differentiating between right and wrong. Of the many kinds of prejudice, the worst is to believe that one's own religion is superior to all others, which may be tolerated but never taken seriously or accepted as equally valid as one's own. The most misunderstood of the major religions today is Islam, which, after Christianity, is the second most widely practised religion in the world. It also gains more converts than any of the other religions. Prejudice against Islam was spread in Christendom from the time Muslims gained dominance in the Middle East, North Africa and Spain. Christian crusaders failed in their missions to crush Islam in its homeland but continued to vilify its founder, Mohammed. The emergence of militant Islamic groups like al-Qaida and taliban gave them reasons to do so. The attack on the World Trade Centre in New York and the Pentagon in Washington on September 11, 2001 provided fresh ammunition to vilifiers of Islam. Since then Islamophobia has been deliberately spread throughout the non-Muslim world. The two principle contentions of the anti-Islamists are that Islam was spread by the sword and that its founder-prophet was not the paragon of virtue that Muslims make him out to be. It can be proved by historical evidence that Islam was not forced upon the people; it was readily accepted by millions because it offered them new values, principally equality of mankind and rights to women that were unheard of in those times. In countries like Indonesia and Malayasia, Islam was not forced on the population by Muslim invaders but by Muslim missionaries.

Muslims are extremely sensitive to criticism of their Prophet. A popular adage in Persian is: ba khuda diwaana basho, ba Mohammed hoshiar! - "say what you like about God, but beware of what you say about Mohammed." They regard him as the most perfect man who ever trod upon the earth, a successor of Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham and Christ. He was the last of the prophets. If you honestly want to know how Muslims see him, you ought to take a good look at his life and teachings, which he claimed had been revealed to him by God. It would be as wrong to judge him by the doings of al-Qaida and taliban or by the fatwas periodically pronounced by Ayatollahs and half-baked mullahs. You do not judge Hinduism of the Vedas and Upanishads by the doings of Hindus who, in the name of Hindutva, destroy mosques, murder missionaries and nuns, vandalize libraries and works of art. You do not judge the teachings of the Sikh gurus by the utterances of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and by the murder of innocents by his hooligans. Likewise, judge Mohammed by what he taught and stood for and not by what his so-called followers do in his name.

Mohammed was born in Mecca in 570 AD. He lost both his parents while still a child and was brought up by his grandfather and uncle. He managed the business of a widow, whom he later married. She bore him six children. He took no other wife until she died. He was 40 years old when he started having revelations while in trance. They proclaimed Mohammed as the new messiah. Such revelation kept coming at random, sometimes dealing with problems at hand, at other times with matters spiritual. They were memorized or written down by his admirers and became the Quran, which means recitation. It should be kept in mind that Mohammed was not preaching ideas of his own but only reiterating most of what was already in the Judaic creed. Allah was the Arabic name for God before him. Similarly, Islam was 'surrender' and salam was 'peace'. Mecca was the main market city of the Bedouin tribes. They gathered at the Kaaba, the huge courtyard with the black meteorite embedded in it during two pilgrimages - the bigger Haj and the lesser Umrah. Mohammed accepted Judaic traditions regarding food which is halaal (lawful) or haraam (forbidden, such as pig meat), names of the five daily prayers and circumcision of male children. Mohammed only asserted the oneness of God that did not accept of any equal such as the stone goddesses worshiped by different tribes. Mohammed never forced people to accept his faith and indeed quoted Allah's message of freedom of faith. "There must be no coercion in matters of faith - la ikra f'il deen." Further: "And if God had so willed, He would have made you all one single command; but He willed otherwise in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto you. Vie, then with one another in doing good works!"

As might have been expected, Mohammed's mission roused fierce hostility. Many attempts were made to assassinate him but he had miraculously escaped. Ultimately, in 622 AD he was advised to flee from Mecca to Medina. This is know as the Hijra (emigration) and recognized as the beginning of the Muslim calendar. Meccans made a few attempts to capture Medina but were ousted. Muslim armies led by Mohammed triumphed and returned to Mecca as conquerors. By the time Mohammed died in Medina in 632 AD, the Arabian peninsula was united as a confederacy of different tribes under the banner of Islam.

Most of the ill-founded criticism against Mohammed is directed towards the number of women he married after the death of his first wife, Khadijah. This has to be seen in the perspective of Arabian society of the time. Tribes lived by warring against each other and looting caravans. There were heavy casualties of men, creating serious gender imbalance. Widows and orphans of men killed had to be provided with homes and sustenance. Otherwise they took to prostitution or begging. So they were given protection by being taken in marriages. Also, matrimonial alliances were a good way of creating bonds between different tribes. Mohammed did nothing not acceptable to his people. He went further: he was the first teacher to proclaim that the best union was a monogamous marriage and fixed the maximum limit to four, provided a man could keep all of his wives equally happy - which was most unlikely. The pertinent verse in the Quran reads: "And if you have reason to fear you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among other women who are lawful to you, even two or three or four; but if you have reason to fear you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then only one." Bear in mind that at that time polygamy was the norm in patriarchal societies all over the world.

To make a beginning in clearing your mind of anti-Muslim prejudices, I suggest you read Karen Armstrong's Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time. Armstrong is the leading writer on comparative religions today. She is not Muslim. (END).

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#78

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:16 pm

Br. Saif,

A very good article indeed.. I hope the misguided on this forum learn something from it.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#79

Unread post by Danish » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:22 am

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
You want the quran to give you room to kill your own children, you sick piece of crap!!
It is your damned Quran by a despot whom you love that is commanding you to do just that, you brainless zombie!!! :D

6:151: ...take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. (wisdom in delusion, LOL! :eek: )

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#80

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:22 am

Aww shut up you fool. You wouldn't understand Dr Seuss if it was taught in post graduate college. The life being talked about is not children in this context, as made clear in 17:31 but don't exert your puny pathetic brain as it is incapable of making the distinction. I might've said that you are doing this on purpose, but you are too dumb to do that.

There comes a time when idiotic voices should be silenced or they cause more harm than good. I would suggest that Admin cut this pathetic fool off of this board.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#81

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:33 am

There is no killing of children in Islam. Islam even prohibits abortion. These accusations against Islam are created by hate mongers like this human excreta to sow hatred against Islam and muslims in feeble and uneducated minds. These are the kinds of people that have created the concept of Islamofascism to bring their hatred to fruition.

Admin should realize the dangers of allowing this to continue on this board.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#82

Unread post by Danish » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:04 am

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
There is no killing of children in Islam. Islam even prohibits abortion.
6:151: ...take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. (wisdom in delusion, LOL! )

A brainless zombie defends the clear command (in bold above) to kill children by way of justice in the name whom he loves to call "an human excreta" (Muhammad). Another peice of great delusional wisdom. :D Gotta love these neurotics.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#83

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:39 am

Admin, please do not allow this board to become a tool in the hands of this hate monger. It is time to get serious and cut him off.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#84

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:40 am

Danish,

You have crossed all bounds of decency.

Admin,

I advise you to remove Danish from further partcipation on thiese boards.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#85

Unread post by Danish » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:13 am

Porus, I know its painful and it was deliberate in retaliation to this pathetic moron named "AAB" who is a true brainless zombie that cannot even understand simple basics. And I mean it without any regrets to give him a taste of his own medicine. It is as simple as that whether you like it or not. I have been "nice" in the begining all along (check my posts) until a few looney goons started derailing my every topic and attacking my person, lying their guts out and manipulating my own words without discussing the issues. I really care less if I am terminated from forum. I participate on 2 other ones as well having much appetite for diligent discussions unlike this one.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#86

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:22 am

Danish,

You have out-competed Above Average Bigot by abusing the Prophet.

Well, Prophet can take care of himself. You are welcome to abuse other partcipants on the board in imitation of Above Average Bigot, but all decent people will draw a line against insults to those whom millions condsider sacred.

You are welcome to disappear and spew your venom against religions and their founders on other forums. I no longer welcome you on this one.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#87

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:33 am

porus,

Do not consider yourself to be any better. According to you God has three horns, boobs and a vagina. You've had your own share of insults against Allah and his prophet. But I appreciate you finally speaking out against this hate monger. I was wondering when the followers of Hazrat Ali would finally speak out against this venom that was being spewed out against the prophet of Islam!!

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#88

Unread post by Danish » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:50 am

What "prophets"??? There's no such thing as prophets. It is all man-made and brainwashed into your heads. To emulate, exalt and invoke a dead man who was not only a human, is the first biggest idiocy and as per your own holy book, a gave sin called shirk.

You are welcome to abuse other partcipants on the board in imitation of Above Average Bigot,I am truely embarrased by your above statement, coming from you specially. Very strange indeed. :confused:

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#89

Unread post by Danish » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:51 am

What "prophets"??? There's no such thing as prophets. It is all man-made and brainwashed into your heads. To emulate, exalt and invoke a dead man who was not only a human, is the first biggest idiocy and as per your own holy book, a gave sin called shirk.
You are welcome to abuse other partcipants on the board in imitation of Above Average Bigot,
I am truely embarrased by your above statement, coming from you specially. Very strange indeed. :confused:

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#90

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:58 am

AABigot,

You are an idiot!

Three-horned god was a jest. Nobody except you took it seriously.

My position is simply this. Nothing whatever can be said about God. Quran's anthromorphism (describing God in terms of human attributes) is for Wahhabi intellects.

I would prefer you to be removed from participation here too, but I do not have sufficient cause yet.

I will most certainly not respond to your posts only rarely. You have nothing useful for me to consider.