THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

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Muslim First
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THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#1

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:54 pm

THE ESSAY

From Shaikh ------- to Mr. -----

May Allah grant you success in everything good, and may Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you.

I am in receipt of your letter regarding certain worship at specified times of the day or night practiced privately by Muslims of your country. These are prayers to which Allah SWT has not granted any power; among these prayers are those that have been introduced as innovations and those that are polytheistic; they attribute such prayers to the commander of the Faithful, Ali ibn Talib and to others. They recite these prayers in congregations of ‘Zikr’ (remembrance of Allah) or in the Mosque after the ‘Magrib’ (sunset) prayers in the beliefs that such prayers will take them nearer to Allah. During these prayers, they utter such phrases as, ‘O men of Allah, Help us with the help of Allah and be of succor to us.’ They also say, ‘O you leader of Authority, O you Masters, please respond to our prayers, O you who possess al help; please intercede with Allah on behalf of this slave who is pleading to you at your door, seized by the fear of failings; help us O prophet of Allah; I do not have anyone else to whom I can plead; it is you thru whom our wishes can be fulfilled; you are best of people of Allah like Hamza, the leader of all martyrs; no one other then you can help us; O prophet of Allah, come to our help. They also say, O Allah bless the one you have made as means for revealing your mighty secrets and your divine light; he became true vicegerent and inheritor your Truth.

You had also desired to know in your letter regarding ‘Bid’ah’ (Innovation) and polytheism. You had wanted to know whether it would be correct to pray behind the Imam who makes such invocations.


In this connection, I would like to state the following: -

Praise to Allah alone and peace and blessing are upon the Prophet of Allah, the members of his family and his companions and on all those who shall until Day of Judgment; proceed on right path shown by Him.

Verily, Allah SWT, the Almighty created mankind and sent the Messengers SA in order that he alone is worshipped. Allah states in Holy Qur’an:

“I have only created jinns and men that they may serve Me.” [51:56]

To worship means to obey the Almighty Allah and the Prophet SAW by carrying out what Allah and His Prophet have ordered us to do by abstaining from what they have forbidden us to do. We carry out these actions with faith, humility and sincere devotion to Allah and His Prophet SAW. The Holy Qur’an states:

“Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him” [17:23]

In other words, He has ordained that He alone be worshipped. Allah says in Holy Qur’an:

“Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds; Most Gracious Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment; Thee do we worship and Thine aid we seek.” [1:2-5]

These verses make it amply clear that Allah alone is to be worshipped and His help alone is to be sought. Allah also says:

“So serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due?” [39:2-3]

And

“Call ye then upon Allah with sincere devotion to Him even though the Unbelievers may detest it.” [40: 14]

And

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah.” [72:18]

There are several verses in Holy Qur’an in this context pointing out the necessity and duty to worship Allah alone. Invocation, as you all know, is, in all its forms, a manner of worship; it is therefore not permissible for anybody to invoke anyone and to neither seek the help of anyone nor plead assistance from anyone except Allah, as stated in above verses. However, in matters pertaining the daily routine of life and in connection with material things on which every human being has control, a person may seek help of another person; this is not worship; a person may for example, one may ask help from his colleague either directly or by correspondence to the building of his house or repairing his car. In this context, Allah SWT says while narrating the story of the Prophet Moses S.A.,

“Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe,” [28:15]

The help and aid that a man seeks from his fellow human beings at times of Jihad and conflict is like the above said help. But seeking help and aid from the dead, the Jinns, the Angels, the trees and the Stone is an act of major polytheism; it is similar to practices of polytheists of early ages with their gods such as Al-Uzza and Al-Latt, etc. Similarly, it is an act of polytheism to believe that certain human beings enjoy or possess Certain super natural powers which belong only to Allah SWT. It is believed that such people can help in curing the sick and attaining the paradise and salvation from hell.

The verses quoted above and the saying of the Prophet emphasizes the need to guide all people to the path of Allah in all matters and to be sincere in worshipping Allah and only Allah in all matters and to be sincere in worshipping Allah and Allah only because all human beings have been created for that purpose and had been thus ordained as mentioned in the versed quoted above, Allah SWT also Says:

“Serve Allah, and join not any partners with him.” [4:36]

And

“And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah offering Him sincere devotion being True (in faith),--“ [98:5]

And Prophet SAW has said as narrated by Muaadh:
“It is Allah’s right over the worshippers that they worship only him and do not associate anyone with him”

And Prophet SAW has said in another tradition narrated by Masud and recorded by Imam Bukhari:

“Whoever dies while invoking someone as rival to Allah will be doomed to hell”

When Prophet SAW sent the companion Muaadh to Yemen, he said to him, “You shall be meeting people who profess faith in revealed Book; therefore, your plea to them should be to profess the Statement of faith: “THERE IS NO GOD EXCEPT ALLAH AND THAT I (Muhammad) AM THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH;” In the narration of Imam Bukhari it is mentioned as [/I] “Plead to them to until they accept oneness of Allah.”

It is narrated in the collections of Traditions (Hdith) compiled by Imam Muslim that according to a saying by Tarek Ibn Ashyam Al-Ashjayi that Prophet SAW said:

“Whoever accepts oneness of Allah and disbelieves whatever is worshipped other then Allah enjoys the protection from Allah in his wealth, blood and his reward is with Allah”

There are numerous traditions on this subject.

The faith in oneness of Allah is the sum and substance of the religion of Islam; it is the basic principle and most important of all the duties. And it is for this purpose that the human beings and the Jinns were created. It was for same object that the Messengers of Allah SWT were sent. We had earlier quoted several verses from holy Qur’an affirming this fact. Among such verses are:

“I have only created jinns and men that they may serve Me. (Q-51: 56)

and

“For we assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), Serve Allah, and eschew Evil" (Q 16:36)

and

“Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me." (Q21: 25)

Referring to Prophets Noah, Hud, Saleh and Sooib PBU All of them Allah SWT says that these prophets advised their peoples:

"O my people! Worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him.” [7:59]

These were the message of all the Prophets. All those who oppose the Prophets have themselves confessed that the Prophets commanded them to worship Allah only and to give up the worship of all other gods. The Holy Qur’an says in this context, referring to the story of Aad that they told Prophet Hud SAW.

“They said: "Comest thou to us that we may worship Allah alone and give up the cult of our fathers? Bring us what thou threatenest us with if so be that thou tellest the truth!" [7:70]

And Allah SWT says about the people of the tribe of Quraish when our prophet Muhammad SAWS, to worship Allah only, called them upon, to give up worshipping the Angels, the friends (read here; saints and walis) and guides (read here; Dais and Mullahs) , idols and trees etc.;

"Has he made the gods (all) into one Allah? Truly this is a wonderful thing!” [38:5]

And

“For they, when they were told that there is no god except Allah, would puff themselves up with pride, and say: "What! Shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?" [37:35-36]

There are many verses in Holy Qur’an and Sayings of the Holy prophet SAWS which expounds this concept. May Allah grant us success to us all in understanding our religion and educating ourselves regarding the true path of Allah.

All the invocations and different expressions seeking help and succor are various forms of polytheism because they are addressed as worship to other then Allah; and they seek to achieve things thru the dead and the departed whereas Allah alone can achieve things.

Such invocations are worse form of polytheism when compared to polytheism of the early ages because the people of early ages indulged in polytheism only when they enjoined material comfort, peace and luxury, But at times of crises and hardship they worshipped Allah alone because they knew that Allah alone can bring salvation to them from their hardship, The holy Qur’an refers to those polytheists and says;

“Now if they embark on a boat they call on Allah making their devotion sincerely (and exclusively) to Him; but when He had delivered them safely to (dry) land Behold they give a share (of their worship to others)!” [29:65]

And Allah says in another verse;

“When distress seizes you at sea those that ye call upon -besides Himself- leave you in the lurch! But when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!” [17:67]

If the later day polytheists were to say, “We do not mean that those whose help we seek can by themselves benefit us and cure the sick among us or be of use to us or hurt us; we only mean to seek their intercession with Allah for us, the answer to such an observation should be as follows:

Verily, the unbelievers of the early periods also had the same purpose and desire; they too did not believe that their gods create or give livelihood or do good or harm.

Such a statement will negate what Allah has mentioned about them in the Holy Qur’an. Those unbelievers also claimed that they only sought, through such worship, the intercession and good offices of those whom they worshipped so that they make take them nearer to Allah. Allah says in the Holy Qur’an: in the context of the story of the Prophet Yunus A.S.:

“They serve besides Allah things that hurt them not nor profit them and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not in the heavens or on earth?’ Glory to Him! And far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!” [10:18]

Thus Allah states in unmistakable words that he has no knowledge of any intercessor from the heavens or from the earth as claimed by the unbelievers. So, the existence of anything not known to Allah does not in fact exist because nothing is hidden from his knowledge. Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

“The revelation of this Book is from Allah, The Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.
Verily, it is We who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth; so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? - -“
[39:1-3]

It evident from these verses that Allah alone is to be worshipped and such worship should be in all sincerity because Allah has commanded the Prophet SAWS to be sincere in worship. The above quoted verse; the word “Ad-Deen” meaning religion in Arabic has been interpreted as worship; worship means obedience to Allah and His Prophet SAWS as stated earlier; it includes invocations, seeking help, fear, hope, vows and sacrifices besides prayers and fasting and other duties ordained by Allah and His prophet SAWS. Later on, Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

“But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.” [39:3]

Thus the falsehood of their claim that their gods take them nearer to Allah has been exposed and the worship they perform has been described as blasphemy . It should therefore be clear to any person who has minimum of intelligence that the source of blasphemy and polytheism in earlier ages was because Prophets, friends and advisors besides trees and stones and other creations were considered intercessors between worshippers and Allah and they believed that such intercessors achieve for them their hopes and aspirations, needs and ambitions without the permission nor consent of Allah the Almighty. It was considered to be like the recommendation of the ministers to the kings and they (such worshippers) presumed Allah SWT to be equal to kings and leaders therefore, they uttered words which one may utter when making petition to a king or a leader. This is worst form of falsehood because Allah SWT has none similar to Him and He cannot be compared with His own creations; no one intercedes with Him without his permission; intercession is granted only to believers in the Oneness of Allah; Allah is Omnipotent and Omniscient and he is Most Merciful; He does not fear anyone and neither can frighten Him since He has power over all His servants and He alone disposes their affairs as He wills. On the contrary, kings and leaders cannot have power over anything and they don not have knowledge about everything. So they need to have people to assist them in matters, which they are unable to achieve or implement. Hence, an entourage of ministers, advisers and bodyguards, etc always surrounds them. They also need to be informed about those who are in want; this is yet another reason for being surrounded by ministers and advisers. But Allah SWT is above all such needs and all such assistance. He is more merciful to them then their mothers; and He is just ruler who as per His Supreme Knowledge, Wisdom and Ability assigns to its proper place; it is therefore not proper to compare Him with His own creations. It is for this reason that Allah SWT has stated in Qur’an that He is the Creator and the Sustainer; it He who responds to call of one who is in distress and exposes the evil; gives life and takes it away; and does so many other actions, The dispute between the polytheists and the Messenger of the Allah is in fact about sincerity in worshipping Allah Alone. The Holy Qur’an says:

If thou ask them who created them they will certainly say Allah: how then are they deluded away (from the Truth)? [43:87]

And

Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? Or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? And who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say "Allah." Say, "Will ye not then show piety (to Him)?" [10:31]

There are several verses in his context in the Holy Qur’an. We had earlier referred to the verses that point out that, the dispute between the Messenger of Allah and the nations was regarding sincerity in worshipping Allah alone. we may quote another verse:

For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) "Serve Allah and eschew Evil" [16:36]

Regarding intercession, Allah SWT has mentioned in several places in Holy Qur’an the real meaning of intercession. We may for example quote:

Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? [2:255]

Allah will not accept from His worshippers blasphemy, heathenism; He will accept only gratitude expressed by the belief in oneness of Allah and obedience to Him. It is stated in the Holy Quran:

It ye reject (Allah) truly Allah has no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful He is pleased with you. [39:7]

It is narrated in the Collections of Traditions (Hadith) compiled by Imam Bukhari that Abu Hurayra said that when he asked the Prophet SAW, “Who shall be most happy people with your intercession, O Prophet of Allah?” The Prophet said, “He who says that there is no god except Allah, and says so with all the sincerity of his heart (or of his self).” [/I]

It is narrated on the authority of Anas R.A. that the Prophet SAW said, “Every Prophet has a plea responded to; and every Prophet hastened to make his plea while I withheld mine, so I may intercede for my Ummah (nation) on the Day of Judgment; and by the will of Allah my intercession will include all my Ummah who have departed from this world without setting up partners to Allah in worship.”

There are several verses in the Holy Qur’an and several Traditions of the Prophet which emphasize the fact that worship is a right preserved for Allah alone and it is not permissible to perform any worship to anyone other then Allah, whether they may be Prophets or any other person. They also emphasize the fact that intercession is with Allah, the Almighty Alone as said in Qur’an:

“ Say: "To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) Intercession: “ [39:44]

No one shall deserve intercession except by His permission. And He, the Almighty, will permit for intercession to person who only believes in Oneness or Allah as stated earlier. Therefore, the polytheists will not be granted intercession. The Holy Qur’an says:

“Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.” [74:48]

“No intimate friend nor intercessors will the wrongdoers have who could be listened to.” [40:18]

The expression “wrong-doers” in these verses is interpreted as the polytheists; this is stated in another verses:

“Those who reject faith they are the wrong-doers.” [2:254]

“For false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing." [31:13]

With regards to your question concerning some of Sufis (Mystics) who utter in Mosques and some other places phrases such as “O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in unfolding of your mighty secrets and in opening the doors of to sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become your vicegerent and who has inherited your secrets ----etc.” The answer to this question is as follows:

All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet SAW has warned us. It is narrated in the collection of Traditions (Hadith) by Imam Muslim on the authority of Abdulla Ibn Masud that the Prophet SAW said: “The Pedants shall be doomed to destruction.” (The Prophet repeated this remark three times). Imam Al-Khattab RA has defined a pedant as one who delves into problems and issues which are beyond his intellectual abilities, as was indulged by the scholastic theologians.

Abus-Sadaat ibnul Athis has said that the pedants are those who show extravagance in their speech and try to speak loudly. The Arabic word for this expression “Mutanatti” “is derived from Nat’ “ meaning forepart of the palate. Later, the word was used for every extravagant either in speech or action.

Any person, eve with limited intelligence, will understand from the above that such utterances referred to, in praise of our Prophet SAW is for of affection and pedantry forbidden in our religion. The correct approach for a Muslim in this context should be to learn the Traditional method of praying on the Prophet SAW. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim have narrated in their collection on the authority of Kabb RA that the Companions of the Prophet SAW said to the Prophet “O Prophet of Allah, we have been ordained to pray on you; how shall we pray on you?” The Prophet Said, “Say, O Lord, bless Muhammad and the family of the Muhammad as you blessed Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious; and O Lord; grant your benedictions to Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as you granted to Ibrahim and the family of the Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious.”

It is also narrated in the collections of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim on the authority of Abi Masud Al-Ansari RA that Basheer Ibn-Sa’ad said: “O Prophet of Allah, Allah has ordered us to pray on you; so how shall we pray on you?” The Prophet remained silent for few moments and then said: “Say, O Lord, bless Muhammad and the family of the Muhammad as you blessed Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious.” This is the prayer taught to you.”

All such utterances that are authentically attributed to the Prophet SAW should be only utterances used by a Muslim whenever he seeks to pray for the prophet and ask Allah’s benediction for him. A Muslim should abide only by these authentic words because the Prophet SAW knows best regarding words that are to be used for him and he also knows best regarding the words that are to used for His Lord. All innovated and affected words and phrases besides the words which are loaded with the possibility of incorrect connotations such as words mentioned in your query; such words should not be used because they are affected forms of speech because they can be interpreted with false meanings and also for the reason they are different from the words selected by the Prophet of Allah SAW. He has instructed his Ummah (nation) and he is best informed among all human beings and most righteous; he is the least inclined to affections. May the best of peace and blessings of our Lord on him. I hope the discussion I have in these pages, supported by the adequate proofs, shall suffice in explaining the truth of the doctrine of the Oneness of Allah and exposing polytheism besides explaining the difference between the polytheist of the early ages and those of the later ages in this regard.

A person who seeks to know truth should be convinced by the explanation given regarding the permissible form of prayer on the Prophet SAW. But if a person has no desire to know the truth, he can indulge in his own fanciful thoughts. Allah has referred to them in the Holy Quran and said:

“But if they hearken not to thee know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts devoid of guidance from Allah? For Allah guides not people given to wrongdoing.” [28:50]

In the above verse Allah SWT has classified the people in two groups with regard to their attitude to our Prophet Muhammad SAW and his mission; one group responds to Allah and His messenger whereas the other group follows its own lusts and Allah says that those who follow their lusts are deprived of all guidance from Him.
We pray Allah SWT that we may be safe from becoming the followers of lusts and may Allah make you and all of us among those who always abide by the path of Allah and His Messenger SAW and by those who enlighten us about His Divine Law (Sharia) and caution us against the fanciful opinions. Peace and Blessings be on His slave and Messenger, Our Prophet Muhammad and on his Family, his companions and his followers until the Day of Judgment.

znanwalla
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#2

Unread post by znanwalla » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:07 pm

Mf....In this world nobody who seeks something can reach his or her goal unless he has a "capital" of the same kind that the person seeks and subsequently then makes the necessary effort. Thus in this material world unless a person seeks a favour from the primordial decree (hukm i mafrugh) and then has own piety, he cannot acquire much as the act of "taslim" (submission) is based on insight (basirat) and so without these essential requirements, he or she cannot attain the required levels and so try and read Sura 26:89; 31:22 and 6: 127.......Unless one acquires )"hukm i mustanif), whatever is just philosophical...zn

anajmi
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:33 am

That is not true. Only those that are capable of attaining the level of redemption that can come with convention before the final resumption of that day can claim completion of that which they want to achieve before competing in the bliss on an equitorial level. Having said that, those that want to attain a level which comes after the level which they have achieved but before the level that they ultimately want to reach in search for same level they desire, remains incomplete. That is why, unless you produce the final revealed ayahs of the quran, you remain unqualified to attain this level.

znanwalla
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#4

Unread post by znanwalla » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:28 am

Actually those like you who do not know such critical ayats because their scribes screwed them up so bad, are the ones who cannot attain any levels other than being idiotic even when someone tries to discuss sensibly....you are simply a joker !....your gibberish makes no sense whatsoever.....for folks like you truth does not exist - only falsity exists ! Your knowledge is based on inferences from effect to cause whilst OUR knowledge comes from the one who is knowing (arif) and as in "tanzil" we are known as the "foremost' (sabiqan) whilst you are known as the people of the left (or the people of this world) !.....zn

anajmi
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:16 am

your gibberish makes no sense whatsoever
What are you talking about, it makes perfect sense on a platitude taken correctly from within the self of the person who can shed his or her unworthiness to discuss the bliss of eternity in the sanctity of the soul's lost equilibrium. In this physical world of materialistic possession the hand that possess is the same as the leg that carries to the direction in which the possession can be acquired by that which was earned by bowing to a boss wearing a suit with a glass in hand in the cult of those from whom were hidden the final ayahs. Taken literally, it means that the person whose self is determined to say that which cannot be said but doesn't want to say it such that the one that listens can understand in a manner to have an understandable discussion is a moron.

znanwalla
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#6

Unread post by znanwalla » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:58 pm

That is because Allah has directed mankind to obey the Olil Amr also and so disobedient people like you are the ones at fault....as for a dress code, based on theology there is no particular dress code outlined as far as I know....that is why I said your talk is just gibberish !...So who is the successful one? one who purifies his soul ! how can one do this?.....by following the Prophet's guidance !.....what did the Prophet say?..."hold fast to my Book and to my Progeny...".....you too had the same choice...so why are you now ranting?


zn

anajmi
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:43 pm

Admin,

Please stop deleting my posts. Either close the thread or disable my ID. But please don't make me waste my time over here. Or you can add another rule - Any post by anajmi will be deleted without warning/explanation. And remember, porus didn't leave because of me. He was a coward who couldn't defend his beliefs. If he had the power that you have, he might've been doing the same thing that you are doing!!

Admin
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#8

Unread post by Admin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:39 am

We'll delete all posts that keep repeating the same thing. You know the rules clearly, and they apply to everyone equally.
Both sides are accusing us of partiality, that must mean we're on the right track.

anajmi
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:51 am

Admin,

The rules do not talk about repeating. When you say repeating what do you mean? Will you do a text compare? Or will it be an idea comparison? If it is an idea comparison, you will need to delete everything I post as I have posted it before. Also, how many times does a post need to get repeated before it gets deleted? Are you actually trying to discourage me from continuing to post on this board so that I go away and you can claim that I left of my own free will? If you clear these things, it will help me figure out how I should proceed before I post.

Admin
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#10

Unread post by Admin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:57 am

anajmi, stop being difficult. You know exactly what we mean. You've asked more than once about the "last revealed ayahs". Stop belaboring that point. You may be saying it differently but you're saying the same thing. If the answer is not forthcoming then it is not forthcoming. This is an impasse.You've made your point. Time to move on.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#11

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:05 pm

ZN

I posted a straight forward essey and you responded with usual Goobli Gook using fency words like "primordial decree (hukm i mafrugh) , "taslim" (submission) is based on insight (basirat)" and then you go on tired about "scribes screwed Ayas" etc. etc.

Do you have any comments on the ESSEY?

znanwalla
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#12

Unread post by znanwalla » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:45 pm

Mf....it may be straightforward in your understanding only ! In mine it is not as the Command of God (Amr) is not something additional to HIS scared Essence in so far as HE is HE, the exalted and so the origination lies in the Origin itself. Cause and effect are two concatenating entities in so far as there can be no cause without a corresponding effect and no effect without a corresponding cause and this may be outside the scope of your understanding without a "Muallim" who can actualize any or all potentalities, in order to attain Truth !....zn

Al-Uqul

Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#13

Unread post by Al-Uqul » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:35 am

znanwalla wrote:Mf....it may be straightforward in your understanding only ! In mine it is not as the Command of God (Amr) is not something additional to HIS scared Essence in so far as HE is HE, the exalted and so the origination lies in the Origin itself. Cause and effect are two concatenating entities in so far as there can be no cause without a corresponding effect and no effect without a corresponding cause and this may be outside the scope of your understanding without a "Muallim" who can actualize any or all potentalities, in order to attain Truth !....zn
"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah.” [72:18]
these verses are mistranslated and misinterprated ,in fact the Ahl a kahf according to the quran built a masjid on the body of a saint and the barakah of that masjid increased there BYhttp://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=8 ... db6940d847 -English S Ammar Nakshawani Is Intercession a Form of Shirk ?( English)
sunni explanation :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ciOJ20xwM Tawassul - Calling upon Someone is NOT shirk التوسل جائز http://alsunna.org/calling.htm

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#14

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:28 am

Re: 13 Rajab Mubarak
by humble_servant_us on Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:50 am

anajmi

Shias do not worship anyone other than Allah(swt). The goal of every muslim is to seek the nearness of Allah(swt) and as per the prophet(pbuh), he has left two precious things the quran and ahlul bait which are the source of ultimate guidance for a muslim to achieve this.

For the shias ahlebait is the infallible progeny of the prophet(pbuh) , whom Allah(swt) has made the imams for the muslims. Wasila means seeking a means to achieve nearness of allah(swt) and following the footsteps of the ahlul bait and following quran is surely a means of achieving the kurbat of allah(swt).

I think you will agree asking someone to pray on your behalf is not wrong, likewise shias ask their imams(swt) to pray for them(tawassul) because they believe they are the best creation of allah(swt) and it is impossible for their duas to be rejected. What is wrong in this. This is wasila for duas. Yes there is no issue in asking Allah(swt) directly but what is wrong in asking someone else also to pray for you.

There are certain sins which prevent our duas from reaching allah(swt) (refer dua e kumayl taught by ali(as)), however in that case if a pious person prays for you , you mightl be forgiven. You may ask any pious person to pray for you, but for the shias the best people in piety are the ahlulbait and hence they ask them to pray for them to Allah(swt).

The concept of wasila in shia school of thought is not understood clearly by others and so shirk is attributed to them, this is primarily because you see what people do rather than investigating what the school of thought talks about, but in truth it is a common sense phenomena in sync with quranic teachings.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#15

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Br. Humble

I hope you read Shaik's article completely and then comment

JAK

humble_servant_us
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#16

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:46 pm

MF
Salamun alaikum,
I don't think there is any second opinion that worship is only for Allah(swt), and shias also believe in the same. FYI shias have 5 fundamentals of religion (usool e din) and tawheed is the top most of it and forms the basis of everything.

It is good that shaikh accepts that it is OK to accept help from humans in day to day affairs( though he has nothing to support this-probably his personal experiences).
Shias extend this theory with firmness- we believe that if we ask for help in daily affairs, it will be NOT OK if we think that the helper is All powerful and in his ownself capable of helping us, we believe that the helper can help because Allah(swt) has provided him the capacity to help. When we fall sick , we go doctor for cure, but we never think he is the giver of cure (shifa), the giver of Shifa is only Allah(swt) and doctor is just a mediator whom Allah(swt) has given wisdom and knowledge to prescribe a medicene.

Likewise shias believe, that prophet(pbuh) and imams(as) are the best creation of allah(swt) and allah(swt) has bestowed them with special blessing and have made them the guides for human mankind. We seek their help in our spritual guidance to achieve the marefat of Allah(swt)

Is it no hypocritical that for your day to day affairs you can take help from anyone but when it comes to the prophet(pbuh)or his household you have all concerns about shirk.

Sorry i did not have the patience to read the entire article from the shaikh as it was too long and lot of repetitions.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#17

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:23 pm

Is it no hypocritical that for your day to day affairs you can take help from anyone but when it comes to the prophet(pbuh)or his household you have all concerns about shirk.
Do not forget in your day to day affair you are asking another creature (human) to help you or intercede on your behalf.

Even with Allah SWT it is OK to ask another living human being to pray that Allah grant your wishes but Allah has granted no such powers to departed human beings.

If you read Shaikh’s article completely he quotes a hadith and I will copy it here:

----- he asked the Prophet SAW, “Who shall be most happy people with your intercession, O Prophet of Allah?” The Prophet said, “He who says that there is no god except Allah, and says so with all the sincerity of his heart (or of his self).”

It is narrated on the authority of Anas R.A. that the Prophet SAW said, “Every Prophet has a plea responded to; and every Prophet hastened to make his plea while I withheld mine, so I may intercede for my Ummah (nation) on the Day of Judgment; and by the will of Allah my intercession will include all my Ummah who have departed from this world without setting up partners to Allah in worship.”

There are several verses in the Holy Qur’an and several Traditions of the Prophet which emphasize the fact that worship is a right preserved for Allah alone and it is not permissible to perform any worship to anyone other than Allah, whether they may be Prophets or any other person. They also emphasize the fact that intercession is with Allah, the Almighty Alone as said in Qur’an:

“ Say: "To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) Intercession: “ [39:44]

No one shall deserve intercession except by His permission. And He, the Almighty, will permit for intercession to person who only believes in Oneness or Allah as stated earlier. Therefore, the polytheists will not be granted intercession. The Holy Qur’an says:

“Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.” [74:48]

“No intimate friend nor intercessors will the wrongdoers have who could be listened to.” [40:18]

prophet(pbuh) and imams(as) are the best creation of allah(swt)
Prophet OK

Imaams, I do not see any evidence in Qur'an or Hadith except smoke and mirror method of Shias
has bestowed them with special blessing and have made them the guides for human mankind.
This special blessing was while they were alive. After their death only guide left is their teachings thru oral or written records. How does 1000 year old 12ver Imaam guide them in Purdah or Bohra Imam whose exixtance is not known guide Bohras?
Sorry i did not have the patience to read the entire article from the shaikh as it was too long and lot of repetitions.
How can you have meaningful discussion if you do not read!

humble_servant_us
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#18

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:43 am

Lets start agreeing on few points rather than dis agreeing on many. Lets keep imams out of discussion at this point.

- Do you agree we can ask help from any other human being (living) in our day to day affair
- prophet(pbuh) was Allah(swt) best creation and was bestowed with special blessing from Allah(swt)
- Is it OK to ask prophet(pbuh) for help (though he is not alive) or will that lead to shirk.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#19

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:10 am

Agree

Agree

No

and it is Sirk

Wasalaam

Al-Uqul

Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#20

Unread post by Al-Uqul » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:14 pm

humble_servant_us wrote:Lets start agreeing on few points rather than dis agreeing on many. Lets keep imams out of discussion at this point.

- Do you agree we can ask help from any other human being (living) in our day to day affair
- prophet(pbuh) was Allah(swt) best creation and was bestowed with special blessing from Allah(swt)
- Is it OK to ask prophet(pbuh) for help (though he is not alive) or will that lead to shirk.
1.Yes,musa(a.s)did this
2.Indeed he is best of creations
3.it is okay,as long as we dont beleive he has independant power apart from allah(swt)
the first to say love for someone was worship was abu bakr,when muhamad died,he claimed in a speech -muhamamd is dead ,let those who Worshipped muhamamd know he is dead,and worship allah for he is eternal.
this guy obvouisly thought love and wasilah was worship.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#21

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:44 am

HSU
Is it OK to ask prophet(pbuh) for help (though he is not alive) or will that lead to shirk.
AU
1.Yes,musa(a.s)did this
Please explain

AU
3.it is okay,as long as we dont beleive he has independant power apart from allah(swt)
but he is dead. Any reference to Hadith or Qur'an regarding this power by dead person,

AU
the first to say love for someone was worship was abu bakr,when muhamad died,
Is it your opinion or you have his speech quote or a shia propeganda?

AU
this guy obvouisly thought love and wasilah was worship.
Your opinion or quote from some shia lies?

humble_servant_us
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#22

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:06 pm

- Is it OK to ask prophet(pbuh) for help (though he is not alive) or will that lead to shirk.

You say it is Not OK and shirk.

"Not OK" can be debated but why is it shirk when we dont beleive he has independant powers. His powers our from Allah(swt) only.

You accept you can ask help from a living person and it is not shirk but if you ask help from dead it is shirk .What logic is this. You can debate a dead person might or might not be able to help but how does it lead to shirk

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#23

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:20 pm

Brother

Do you know what shirk is?

humble_servant_us
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#24

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:46 am

I honestly don't know what is the meaning of shirk is as per you. The way you are using the word shirk, it makes it really confusing. You are using shirk as per your convenience.

For me there is simple logic , if calling a living for help is not shirk, calling a dead for help is also not shirk.

Muslim First
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#25

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:03 pm

Brother Humble, to assume that by invoking in the unseen the righteous imams, or the noble companions of the Holy Prophet (saws), or even the Noble Prophet (saws) himself, or invoking anyone in the Universe other than the One and Only True Lord of the Worlds would be a clear and manifest form of the unforgivable crime of ‘shirk’ in Islam.

To assume that any of the pious departed slaves or Allah Subhanah, or anyone else in creation other than Allah Subhanah Alone can hear one’s invocations in the unseen, let alone has the power and ability to answer them or get them answered, is a clear and manifest form of the most heinous of sins: ‘shirk’ with Allah Subhanah.

One of the Noble and Exclusive Attributes of Allah Subhanah is that He Alone is the All-Hearing or ‘Al-Samee’. To assume that anyone or anything in creation can hear us in the unseen, let alone having the ability and power to answer or respond to our invocations, is to share one of Allah Subhanah’s Exclusive and Sole Attributes with one amongst His creation; and that is a clear and manifest form of the sin of ‘shirk’!

There is not a major Surah in the Quran, where Allah Subhanah has not warned the believers against this heinous practice and abomination of taking ‘wasila’, or invoking others with Allah Subhanah in the unseen! The noble and pious departed slaves of Allah Subhanah never advocated such a practice, nor did it behove them to do so!

Shirk (Arabic: شرك‎) or polytheism

means to consider anyone god other than the true God, Allah SWT. Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.

porus
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#26

Unread post by porus » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:13 am

Muslim First,

I will, Inshallah, respond in detail to your confident expalnation of shirk later. Meanwhile, I have two questions for you.

1. Ayat 3:169 states that those who are killed fi sabililllah, like Imam Husain, are alive and enjoy sustenance from Allah. What do you understand by this ayat. In what sense are they alive and what sort of sustenance are they enjoying?

2. Your co-religionists, Wahhabis/Talibanis today murdered dozens of people at a Sufi shrine in Lahore. What would you do to these people whom you consider mushriks if they do not listen to your religious views and do not want or care to change? Would you support their killing by your co-religionists? If not, why not?

anajmi
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Re: THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:01 pm

1. Ayat 3:169 states that those who are killed fi sabililllah, like Imam Husain, are alive and enjoy sustenance from Allah. What do you understand by this ayat. In what sense are they alive and what sort of sustenance are they enjoying?
This ayah is taken completely out of context by the shia to justify their idol worshipping. This ayah was revealed to prevent people from mourning those who have sacrificed their earthly lives fi sabilillah and not to give a green light for the shia to start praying to them. If Imam Hussein can listen to your prayers, that means he is now the all hearer because if he can listen to one person then that means that he can listen to every person and every thing. The shia have just given a quality of Allah to Imam Hussein. Hence - shirk!!
Would you support their killing by your co-religionists? If not, why not?
In other words, porus is saying that if you object to shia idol worshipping, then you should murder innocents!!! I am not sure why porus always ends up blaming muslim first and myself as being the same as the murderers of innocents. Is it because he has no valid argument left? Isn't he behaving the same way that the western war mongers? Attack an entire country based upon the actions of a few?

Allah has made it clear in the Quran that all the prophet had to do was to deliver the message. Whether people accept the message or not is upto Allah. That has not changed for the followers of the prophet. If you murder an innocent that means as if you have murdered the entire human kind.

I will be going into shia shirk in greater detail in another thread where porus talks about prayers and uzza.

anajmi
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temp

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:22 pm

Let us take an example. Allah has many qualities. One is that he created the Universe. Take two galaxies, our own, the Milky Way and our nearest neighbor, the Andromeda. We say Allah created both of them. If someone says "No, Allah only created the Milky Way but Andromeda was created by Uzza, then you would be guilty of shirk. No other entity has that power.
This is a silly and deceptive argument. Sometime back in another thread, porus agreed that there are some bohras who have raised the status of the Syedna such that they have started worshipping him. That is, these bohras are guilty of committing shirk. How did he arrive at that conclusion? Do they claim that Syedna created Andromeda? Do they say - "li Syedna azza wa jal" in their prayers? The answer to both of these would be a thumping "NO". These kinds of arguments actually enable the idol worshipping bohras to exonerate themselves of the sin of shirk.

I have already explained the erroneous interpretation of 3:169 in a different thread.
Wasila in a prayer is to ask someone whom you believe to be closer to Allah to pray for you.
First, the panjatan are dead, so you cannot ask them. However, based upon 3:169 if you believe that they can hear you, then asking them is actually praying to them. You do not ask them to pray for you. You pray to them to pray for you to Allah. So instead of praying to Allah, you are praying to the panjatan to pray for you to Allah. Besides, Allah says in the Quran that he is closer to each one of us than our jugular. Do you think the panjatan are somehow in between Allah and your jugular?

Now let us take a few examples to clear these deceptions and show that what the shias are doing is actually idol worshipping and not "wasila".

1) The daughter of a pious man falls sick. He takes her to the best doctor. He also prays to Allah to cure her.

2) The son of a pious man is a very good basketball player in high school. The father summons the scouts from the LA Lakers to take a look at him. The father also prays to Allah that his son gets selected by the Lakers.

3) The exams are fast approaching. This kid is a good and pious kid who has worked very hard all year long. He has taken tuitions and the help from the best coaching classes. Just before the final exams he prays to Allah to help him score good marks.

4) This young man is getting ready for a job interview. He has prepared for it with all kinds of reference material. Just before leaving he prays to Allah to help him get the job.

5) The is a fire down the street. The pious man informs the fire brigade so that they can fight the fire. He then starts praying to Allah to help the firemen and save lives and property.

In all the above example, the common factor was that everyone prayed to Allah to help them in different ways. If you replace Allah in any of the above examples, by other people dead or alive, you are committing shirk. Shia logic is that, if seeking the help of the doctor in example 1, the scout in example 2, the coaching classes in example 3, the reference material in example 4 and the fire brigade in example 5 is not shirk, then replacing Allah in the examples above is also not shirk. So knowingly or unknowingly, the shias will continue to commit shirk because of lack of knowledge and erroneous interpretations of the Quran and attributing Allah's qualities to humans.

aqs
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Re: Why are you trying to reform us?

#29

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:54 am

A common mistake done by Bohras though unknowingly.

a very large number who goes to Dargah of any Moula when asks for any blessings directly asks the Moula

example : XYZ Moula please give me XYZ thing, or fulfill my XYZ desire

now this is shirk as they are directly asking and this in no way is vasila.

vasila will be when the person asking for something does Dua like

Ya Allah give me XYZ and i take vasila of XYZ Moula

incredible
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Re: Why are you trying to reform us?

#30

Unread post by incredible » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:26 am

aqs wrote:A common mistake done by Bohras though unknowingly.

a very large number who goes to Dargah of any Moula when asks for any blessings directly asks the Moula

example : XYZ Moula please give me XYZ thing, or fulfill my XYZ desire

now this is shirk as they are directly asking and this in no way is vasila.

vasila will be when the person asking for something does Dua like

Ya Allah give me XYZ and i take vasila of XYZ Moula

but i have heard syedna saying in waiz "Hussain(alaihi salaam) to daataar che,je mangwu hoi te mangi lejo" i know he doesnt mean to do shirk,but common bohra with little knowledge of quraan might not understand the meaning of taking wasila and start asking from the wali in darga?