Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the Wife

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#31

Unread post by Aarif » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:44 pm

Human,

I will try to answer your question on four wives as allowed in Islam. 1400 years back Arabia was in chaos. Adultary was very common and might was considered as right. Women were treated as objects of pleasure. The prophet (pbuh) was a very strategic thinker. He knew very well that if he wants to spread Islam which does not allow adultary he will have to come up with some other solution. Now if he would have asked the nomads of that era to marry only once and have only one wife they would have never agreed. Because if their wife died or divorced them they will have to remain single for the rest of their lives. Thus he came up with this solution of 4 wives at the most. It is interesting that Muslims have mis-interpreted this fact by assuming that a man can have four wives at same time. The prophet(pbuh) clearly mentioned that a Muslim man should have only one wife at a time unless a woman is in need of protection and shelter (E.g. her husband died in war and she cannot support herself) and man can provide it as Anajmi mentioned. If his wife dies or divorces him than he should marry again. This way a Muslim man will remain away from Adultary and lead a respectful life. Also, Islam does allow a woman to remarry in event of divorce or death of his husband. Unfortunately like many other the 4 wives limit is used a loophole by Muslim men all over the world. But this has something to do with the followers rather than the religion itself...

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:30 pm

Aarif,

Unfortunately, your analysis is not accepted by any Ulema, whether educated or not. I do not accept it either. Simply because the prophet had more than one wife at the same time. His last wife, Hazrat Aisha was neither a widow nor was she an orphan who couldn't support herself. Some of his wives were from good families and were well off. Hazrat Ali, after Hazrat Fatima passed had more than one wife at the same time and so did Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein. I don't think you have understood the quran better than any of them.
The prophet(pbuh) clearly mentioned that a Muslim man should have only one wife at a time unless a woman is in need of protection and shelter
Can you please point out the hadith where the prophet has said this?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#33

Unread post by porus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:29 pm

By far, the best ‘translation', in English, of the Quran is that by Muhammad Asad. Asad uses idiomatic translation but is always careful in explaining his choice of words.

If you wish to study the Quran, in addition to Asad’s translation, have a dictionary of the Quran handy. The word-by-word translation is satisfactory but is obviously compiled from existing translations and hence shows the bias of those translations in its choice of words. Instead, or additionally, refer to the ‘Vocabulary of the Holy Quran’ by Dr. Abdullah Abbas Nadwi. It is available from Iqra in Chicago.

It is gratifying that Muslim First has now discovered that the widely available Yusufali translation is not the original one. He has been told this on this forum many times by me. The Yusufali translation has been Wahhabized by Saudis and it is best to pay scant attention to it.

The translations that you must positively avoid are ‘In the shade of the Quran’ by Sayed Qutb and the Wahhabi translation by Hilali and Khan.

Sayed Qutb has twisted the meanings to align with his extremist views about non-Muslims and is a negative influence on Muslims. He is the grand daddy of Usama bin Laden and others who have brought opprobrium on Muslims.

Hilali and Khan, although not as extreme as Sayed Qutb, have put their own words in their translation in addition to those of the Quran and are too lazy to explain what they have done. Unsuspecting reader may believe that Quran is really what they say it is.

While we are on the subject of studying it, I should make a comment that the Quran, as we have today, is not what was revealed to Prophet, but a highly edited version of what used to exist even as late as the early 20th century. Most Qurans we see today are the Hafs copy of the one originally published in 1920’s in Egypt. This is the most widespread version. However, as Bohras know, not every sentence and punctuation mark is considered authentic. Bohras have learned to recite variations while having, and reading from, a copy of Hafs in their hands.

Hence the Quran is authentic only by agreement among Muslims, not as a matter of absolute truth. Despite this, because it is a lynch-pin of Muslim civilization, it demands careful study.

Finally, you cannot study the Quran without commentary. It is best to learn Arabic and read the Quan in the original. It is not difficult. You can achieve fluency in reading the Quranic Arabic (although not fluency in speech) in less than a year. However, one lifetime is not enough to understand its words even if you 'know' Arabic.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:11 pm

the Quran, as we have today, is not what was revealed to Prophet,
That can't be true unless porus can produce what was originally revealed to the Prophet, which I am sure he cannot.
as Bohras know
Bohras know of an Imam in hiding. That tells you how much bohras know!!

There are many variations in recitations. Any surah can be recited in different ways while obeying different punctuations in different ways. It doesn't change the number of wives that you can marry.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#35

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:37 pm

porus wrote:It is gratifying that Muslim First has now discovered that the widely available Yusufali translation is not the original one. He has been told this on this forum many times by me. The Yusufali translation has been Wahhabized by Saudis and it is best to pay scant attention to it.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali was born in Surat India and belonged to Bohra Shia Sect. He did live in Lahore quite some time of his life.
He is one amongst the many translators of Holy Quran in English Language. He was born a Bohra Shia, but showed great respect to Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) and Hazrat Omar (ra) and since he did not move around in ‘his own circle’, he was ‘disowned' by the Shia community at large. (They always refer to him as a Sunni.). Yusuf Ali started work on his translation in 1934 and completed it some four years later. Today, tens of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis, have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed themselves on the Ummah.

Yusufali married an English woman in a church in England. His father was Yusuf Ali Allahbuksh, a Bohra from Surat who was given the title of Khan Bahadur. Yusuf Ali used the name Abdullah ibn Khan Bahadur Yusuf Ali while applying to register at Cambridge university, the Lincoln Inn in London as well as when applying for the Indian Civil Service. He officially opened the first mosque in Canada in Edmonton in December 1938. It was Yusuf Ali who named it Al-Rashid Mosque, perhaps after his son.When he died in London on December 10,1953, he was a pathetic wreck. Disoriented and confused, he was found by the police lying outside the steps of a house. Taken to hospital, he died unsung and unmourned. He was buried in Brookwood Cemetery in Surrey. That a man of such intellect and promise should end up in so sad a state is tragic indeed.


Following are the books written by him:

Cultural History of India During the British Period

Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an

Quranic Message Guide co-authored with Ashfaque Ullah Syed

About five ten feet away from his grave is the resting place of another English translator of Holy Quran, Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall , born William Pickthall in 1875 in London, to an Anglican clergyman, and spent his formative years in rural Suffolk. He was contemporary of Winston Churchill at Harrow, the famous private school. In 1917, Pickthall reverted to Islam and soon became a leader among the emerging group of British Muslims. He died on May 1935.

Muslim First
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#36

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:52 pm

Porus
He has been told this on this forum many times by me
News to me

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#37

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:02 pm

anajmi wrote:
the Quran, as we have today, is not what was revealed to Prophet,
That can't be true unless porus can produce what was originally revealed to the Prophet, which I am sure he cannot.
According to Sunni orthodoxy, Quran was personally compiled by Prophet himself and it was in possession of his wife Hafsa when he died. However Uthman felt it necessary to charge Ziyad ibn Thabit to compile/transcribe/copy Hafsa's Quran on paper. Thus the Quran we have is the one compiled by ibn Thabit. All other compilations were ordered to be destroyed.

Unfortunately, only anajmi knows where Hafsa's Quran is. And he will not produce it for the world to verify that it is exactly the Quran we are reading today.

By the way, does anajmi know where the original compiled by ibn Thabit is? When he finds it, he might want to compare it with Hafsa's version which he knows where to find. And then compare both to the one he has at home.

And he will become very famous. I can see all the honors heaped on him. Bravo, anajmi!

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:28 pm

Unfortunately, only anajmi knows where Hafsa's Quran is. And he will not produce it for the world to verify that it is exactly the Quran we are reading today.
Nope. I don't know and I don't care and don't believe there is need to produce anything or verify anything. If someone needs to prove something different, then they need to prove it. Where are the scientists when we need them?
By the way, does anajmi know where the original compiled by ibn Thabit is?
Don't know, don't care.

So you are saying you have no clue where these copies are and have never seen them and yet you are sure that they are different from the copy that we have today. Hmmmm....

Now imagine for a minute that there were many copies of the quran at that time. How far was the spread of the quran at that time? One country? If there were so many different copies immediately after the death of the prophet (as porus will have you believe, without any proof), imagine how many different copies we would have today when we are 1400 years from the death of the prophet and the spread of the quran is across the entire globe. Hmmmmm.....hmmmm....

Besides, Allah has promised to protect the quran. So if we do not have the original quran, then the quran is not revealed by Allah, but man made. So, if porus is going to take more than one life time to understand a man made book
However, one lifetime is not enough to understand its words even if you 'know' Arabic.
, then either porus is too stupid, or the book is not man made, ergo, Allah's promise holds and the quran that we have today is Allah's word.

Muslim First
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#39

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:38 pm

Hilali and Khan, although not as extreme as Sayed Qutb, have put their own words in their translation in addition to those of the Quran and are too lazy to explain what they have done. Unsuspecting reader may believe that Quran is really what they say it is.
Let us tryto understand what Br. Porus means.

Let us take 2:1 & 2 rendered by Hilali and Khan:

1. Alif-Lâm-Mîm. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'ân and none but Allâh (Alone) knows their meanings].

So here they have put words in parentheses! Do they look lazy? It sure takes win out of sails of Zahir Batin people. It takes flexibility out .Can’t fool Abdes with that Z & B crap.

2. This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Here they have guts to identify this Book being Qur’an so Ismailis might not think it is Diam-ul-Islam or Ginanas.

Al-Muttaqûn: here instead translating as “fear Allah” as Yusuf Ali does, they take lazy way to explain as [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Unfortunately Ismilis are claiming that the true Qur’an is with their Imams or Dais but so far not one single Aya or one sentence of tafseer is put on the paper.

Let Brother Human read whatever he wants to read.

BTW when will we have authentic translation by Allama Porus?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#40

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:58 pm

anajmi wrote: So you are saying you have no clue where these copies are and have never seen them and yet you are sure that they are different from the copy that we have today. Hmmmm....
Oh, I have lots of clues. I will give you an opportunity to search the web for these clues. If you can't find them, I will resurrect my charge of 'Jaahil' against you.
anajmi wrote: If there were so many different copies immediately after the death of the prophet (as porus will have you believe, without ny proof).
These copies were ordered to be destroyed by Uthman. Do you think everyone followed his order? Again, I will give you an opportunity to search the web for these clues. If you can't find them, I will resurrect my charge of 'Jaahil' against you.

anajmi wrote: So, if porus is going to take more than one life time to understand a man made book
Other books that could take more than one life time are the Bible, Mahabharat and Ramayana. They are both from God and from man, just like the Quran.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:01 pm

I will give you an opportunity to search the web for these clues.
Not interested.
Other books that could take more than one life time are the Bible, Mahabharat and Ramayana.
Well, then my impression about you was accurate. You might want to give B.R. Chopra a call.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#42

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:03 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Let Brother Human read whatever he wants to read.

BTW when will we have authentic translation by Allama Porus?
Human and all other humans can read whatever they want. I do not restrict anyone.

But you, MF, can read, but cannot understand. You accept what these wretched translators write in English because you do not have access to the Quran in Arabic. Your Quran is the translation.

I am not much impressed by your knowledge or wisdom.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#43

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:04 pm

anajmi wrote:
I will give you an opportunity to search the web for these clues.
Not interested.
Oh! He says, " I am happy with my blinkers on". Happy company with other frogs in the well!! :lol:

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:00 pm

Well, I did my research already. I haven't found any descrepancies in any quran. They are all the same. If you have found differences, produce your proof. Otherwise my contention that you are full of shit, stands. Besides, it isn't very smart of you to ask people to do research on the web. Didn't you reprimand Muslim First for doing the same a few times? You did the same to me too. Remember wikipedia? I rest my case.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#45

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:05 pm

anajmi wrote:Well, I did my research already. I haven't found any discrepancies in any quran. They are all the same. If you have found differences, produce your proof. Otherwise my contention that you are full of shit, stands.
I am not far away from calling you a jaahil. Remember, I hold you to a much higher standard than Muslim First as you have shown yourself quite capable of being very knowledgeable.

First, research will take you much longer than a cursory search on the web. Second, nobody claims that there is a discrepancy between one copy of Hafs and another. I told you before that the copy that we now have is the one based on the Egyptian version created in 1920's under Turkish Uthmanic rule. What we are talking about is the discrepancy between the revelation and the book we now have. So, for clues you need to go to the early history of the Quran immediately after the death of the Prophet.

How do we know that there were discrepancies between revelation and what we now have? I will give you another chance to do the research.

These are the hints I will give you.

1. Information about pre-Uthmanic copies of the Quran have been preserved in early tafseers, both al-mutawattir and al-shadhdha. Two specific books worthy of mention are Ibn Jinni's Muhtasab and al-Akhfash's Ma'ani al-quran.

2. The oldest Uthmanic script, which is known as Uthmanic rasm, had consonants only for words. There were no vowel signs (fatha, kasra etc), nor dots (the diacriticals) to distinguish letters like ba, ta, tha, noon, fa, qaaf etc. There were no stop signs, nor were the ayats numbered. A copy alleged to be the one with Uthmanic rasm is available in Topkapi museum, I believe, in Turkey. However, there is no authentication yet of it being truly original beyond any doubt.

3. Several companions of the Prophet had their own copies of the Quran, the most famous being the one with Ali ibn Abi Talib and Abdullah bin Masud. ibn Masud did not surrender his copy when Uthman ordered it and went on to create a seperate tradition in Kufa until it was forcibly destroyed by the Governor al-Hallaj. It is rumoured that Ali's copy was preserved and passed onto Imams Hasan and Husain.

4. Several hadiths mention that Prophet agreed that the Quran was revealed in seven variants (huruf). Uthman sought to suppress all except the Quraishy harf. This did not go down well with other companions who had heard the Prophet agreeing with their rendering.

The conclusion is that, unless Hafsa's manuscript, reported to have been compiled by Prophet himself is available, we cannot be at all sure whether Uthmanic Quran is as was revealed. It may be close to it, but not the exact revelation. And the disputes amongst various companions lives on in oldest tafseers.

It is now your turn to do further research and come up with a reasonable scholarly response. Not a trademark abuse.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#46

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:22 pm

porus,

The quran wasn't revealed to the prophet in the form of a book. So to argue that the original quran had or didn't have punctuation marks are moot. Same goes for ayah numbers. The numbers have obviously been added later to give it a book form and make it easier to memorize/understand. Same is the case with vowel signs. I have copies of the quran with and without vowel signs but I am still not comfortable reading the one without vowel signs. If your differences are nothing more than punctuation marks, ayah numbers and vowel signs, then I have nothing more to add. If the differences amount to different meanings of the the quran, then I am interested. So far, I haven't seen anything that would change any meaning of any ayah of the quran.
The conclusion is that, unless Hafsa's manuscript, reported to have been compiled by Prophet himself is available, we cannot be at all sure whether Uthmanic Quran is as was revealed.
The prophet couldn't read or write. So he couldn't have compiled a quran. The "we" doesn't include me. I am sure what we have today is the quran that was revealed to the prophet. My entire argument is based on a simple promise made by Allah that his message will be preserved. You might think punctuation marks and stop signs, I don't.

The reason punctuation marks become important for bohras is because of one particular ayah, where a certain punctuation mark gives superhuman capabilities to their hidden Imams and Dai. Then in these cases you have to look for other evidence to prove your points, which I have done in many different ways.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#47

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:29 pm

anajmi wrote:porus,

If your differences are nothing more than punctuation marks, ayah numbers and vowel signs, then I have nothing more to add. If the differences amount to different meanings of the the quran, then I am interested. So far, I haven't seen anything that would change any meaning of any ayah of the quran.
I am not concerned with diacritics, vowels, punctuation marks or ayat numbers. These were added to facilitate reading much later than the period I am talking about. I have referred you to the earliest tafseers when no such refinements had yet been done to the Quran. These refer to different words and, in some case to different ayats. Subsequent authors have tried to minimize the differences between words by assigning them similar meanings in a way that preserves the 'intent' of the Quran. This is a major redaction. One cannot but suspect that the meanings of different words have been deliberately brought into line.

This last point is very crucial because we are talking about translations. While in Arabic, for example, Warsh and Hafs may be considered to be similar, the translation into another language may not preserve this similarity. The point is that there is no way of knowing whether these are original revelations. However, by agreement,they are.
The prophet couldn't read or write. So he couldn't have compiled a quran. The "we" doesn't include me. I am sure what we have today is the quran that was revealed to the prophet. My entire argument is based on a simple promise made by Allah that his message will be preserved. You might think punctuation marks and stop signs, I don't.
If Prophet could not read and write, then the entire Sunni argument that Prophet himself compiled the Quran becomes suspect. In that case, Prophet accepts what is being read to him by companions as the Quran which we know is not the case. Quran was delivered to Prophet by Jibrail. It is not at all clear what one means by 'Allah's promise to preserve the Quran'. He cannot mean the book. He must mean the authentic interpretation. That is an argument for another time. If Allah wanted to preserve the Recitation, he would have caused digital technology to be invented before its revelation.
The reason punctuation marks become important for bohras is because of one particular ayah, where a certain punctuation mark gives superhuman capabilities to their hidden Imams and Dai. Then in these cases you have to look for other evidence to prove your points, which I have done in many different ways.
You are falling into the same trap as you are accusing Bohras of. You have already decided that the punctuation and interpretation of the Quran you have is the only one possible, just like the Bohras. I do not have that assurance.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:16 pm

These refer to different words and, in some case to different ayats.
This is way too generic. I will need evidence of a particular word or a particular ayah which is suspect. I will need to see the differences and then the interpretation of those differences before I will change my mind.
then the entire Sunni argument that Prophet himself compiled the Quran becomes suspect.
I am not sure that there is a Sunni argument that the prophet himself compiled the quran. The sunni argument is that the version of the quran as we have today was approved by the prophet along with Jibraeel (as). That simply means that the prophet approved the position of the ayahs and the surahs in the quran.
He cannot mean the book. He must mean the authentic interpretation.
Authentic interpretation that no one has access to is of no use to anybody. And if no one has access to it, why the emphasis on preserving it? There would be need for preservation only if there is danger of corruption. Authentic interpretation is not in danger. The book that we have today has always been in danger of corruption. And when I say book, I mean the message of the quran. Sometimes this is in the form of 30 books and sometimes it is in the form of a 114 books.
If Allah wanted to preserve the Recitation, he would have caused digital technology to be invented before its revelation.
I am not sure what recitation you are talking about preserving. You are not talking about voices are you? Like Abdul Baasit's recitation has been preserved on my iPod. I hope that is not what you meant.

I am infact extremely greatful to Hazrat Uthman for doing what he did. Can you imaging what would've happened if we had all the copies that you think we had? Imagine the situation today and then multiply it a hundred fold or even more.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#49

Unread post by porus » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:41 am

anajmi wrote:
I am infact extremely greatful to Hazrat Uthman for doing what he did. Can you imaging what would've happened if we had all the copies that you think we had? Imagine the situation today and then multiply it a hundred fold or even more.
This is a misplaced gratitude. Uthman ordered that all extant Quran manuscripts, other than the one in the Qurashi harf, be destroyed. Now, why would a Khalifa order the destruction of items approved by the Prophet himself?

Uthman actually deserves to be considered the first Muslim vandal.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:04 am

Since the prophet couldn't read or write, he couldn't approve any particular harf let alone 7. You mentioned about hadith where the prophet approved 7. Can you point out these hadith?

Human
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:24 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#51

Unread post by Human » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:00 pm

Aarif wrote:Human,

I will try to answer your question on four wives as allowed in Islam. 1400 years back Arabia was in chaos. Adultary was very common and might was considered as right. Women were treated as objects of pleasure. The prophet (pbuh) was a very strategic thinker. He knew very well that if he wants to spread Islam which does not allow adultary he will have to come up with some other solution. Now if he would have asked the nomads of that era to marry only once and have only one wife they would have never agreed. Because if their wife died or divorced them they will have to remain single for the rest of their lives. Thus he came up with this solution of 4 wives at the most. It is interesting that Muslims have mis-interpreted this fact by assuming that a man can have four wives at same time. The prophet(pbuh) clearly mentioned that a Muslim man should have only one wife at a time unless a woman is in need of protection and shelter (E.g. her husband died in war and she cannot support herself) and man can provide it as Anajmi mentioned. If his wife dies or divorces him than he should marry again. This way a Muslim man will remain away from Adultary and lead a respectful life. Also, Islam does allow a woman to remarry in event of divorce or death of his husband. Unfortunately like many other the 4 wives limit is used a loophole by Muslim men all over the world. But this has something to do with the followers rather than the religion itself...
Aarif, that was similar to what I meant when I said people are exploiting a loophole in Islam. I wasn't sure if 4 wives are allowed at the same time or only one at a time but however according to me, a loophole exists and people are exploiting it. Anyways, I'll write more about it after I complete reading the quran.

Everyone, thank you for your suggestions for quran translations and links to various websites.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#52

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:57 pm

Human wrote:
however according to me, a loophole exists and people are exploiting it.
human,

i think enough people have shown you here from authentic sources that no loophole exists on this subject. if corrupt people want to call it a loophole and exploit it falsely for their own vested interests, then islam cannot be blamed.

this is similar to corrupt, immoral politicians in india and pakistan using the name of gandhi and jinnah to further their nefarious personal and political agendas. will you blame those 2 great leaders for such crooks?

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#53

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:28 pm

Anajmi,

You are right that the prophet and Imams had multiple wives. But I guess there could have been other reasons. The prophet remained married only to hazrat Khadija till her death. His other wives did include widows. Anyways I heard this from a friend who is quite knowledgeable in Islam. I do not know if any hadith mentions this. But I guess the approach that I mentioned in my earlier post, if taken, can be good one as I do not see anything wrong with it.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#54

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:58 pm

anajmi wrote:And to answer Humsafar's original question - Yes Adam and Hawwa were married. The quran refers to Hawwa as Prophet Adam's (as) wife in ayah 2:35
hmmmmm... so there was an institution of marriage before there was society. Interesting! Of course I would not be so daft as to ask for a marriage certificate but am curious to know as to who performed their nikah. Also, how did the future generations come along? I'm guessing Adam and Eve's progeny married amongst themselves and also in the process produced different races and ethnicities from a single genetic pool. Maybe Darwin's theory of genetic mutation can help us explain this wonder!!!!

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:19 pm

Of course I would not be so daft as to ask for a marriage certificate but am curious to know as to who performed their nikah.
Maybe an angel did. May be God himself did. A piece of paper doesn't make a nikah. Intentions and evidence does. Allah is providing the evidence. Sufficient for me to know that all muslims are not bastards as you were inclined to show.

And it would be ignorant of you to mix science and religion. Adam (as) was the first human created. That doesn't mean he was the only one created. You don't need Darwin to explain it. Just a little bit of common sense would suffice.

Thai
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#56

Unread post by Thai » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:22 pm

"Adam (as) was the first human created. That doesn't mean he was the only one created. "

Interesting point, I could agree with it......

In Aramaic, "Adamah" means "People of the soil". In Jewish Apocrypha, (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) may have had a wife before "Eve" called Liluth. (accounts of this are a bit confusing). That Adam/Eve are the only humans may be a Western/Roman Christian understanding.....

(Not that Aramaic or Jewish Apochrypha have anything to do with the Quran, but it does open a up different way to look at things----Aramaic was used by the Early Eastern Church---they also had different views on the "Trinity" concept and "original sin" concept of the Western/Roman Church. Apparantly, this difference stems from their understanding of the OT/Torah, the Western Church used the Greek translation of the Torah called the Septuagint (which was translated into Latin and called the Vulgate) to form their doctrines while the Eastern Church directly translated the Hebrew Torah into Aramaic retaining some of the Jewish ideas associated with it.)

Research into mitochondrial DNA has some interesting stuff to say about early homo sapiens sapiens.....(?)......

Thai
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#57

Unread post by Thai » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:33 pm

It is also my understanding that the name "Eve" is not mentioned in the Quran at all........

Muslim First
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#58

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:51 am

porus wrote
This is a misplaced gratitude. Uthman ordered that all extant Quran manuscripts, other than the one in the Qurashi harf, be destroyed. Now, why would a Khalifa order the destruction of items approved by the Prophet himself?

Uthman actually deserves to be considered the first Muslim vandal
From

Usul al-Kafi
Book 4: The Book of Divine Proof
Chapter 40
The Jafr and the Mushaf of Hazrat Fatimah (p)
http://al-kafi.org/bok%204.htm

381. 3. Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (p): The white Jafr (vessel) is in my possession.

When he (p) was asked what was in it.

The Imam (p): The Zabur (Psalms) of Prophet Dawood (David) (p), the Torah of Prophet Musa (Moses) (p), the Injeel (Bible) of Prophet Isa (Jesus) (p), the book of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) (p), and all that is permitted and all that is forbidden, and the Mushaf of Fatimah az-Zahra (p). I do not claim that the Noble Quran is included in it.It contains what people need to know from us and because of this wealth of knincluded in it.owledge we need nothing more…


382. 6. Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (p): In our possession is that because of which we need nothing from the people but the people need from us. And in our possession is a book which is hand-written by Imam Ali (p), which was dictated by the Prophet Muhammad (p). It is a scroll in which every thing permitted or forbidden is described. When you bring a matter to us (for our advice or command), we know when you follow it and when you do not.

Why call Usman RA vandal when Imam Jafar had everything by Ali in his possession

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#59

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:54 am

anajmi wrote:Intentions and evidence does. Allah is providing the evidence.
What intentions, what evidence are you talking about? BTW, I'm not and was not asking for a piece of paper.
Marriage is a human construct - a product of history and society. And in Islam it is a contract. To tie down God with it is to belittle God and to make marriage divine. And no I'm not inclined to show that "muslims are bastards". I brought the subject up because of your self-righteous condemnation of sexual mores in the West. To me a "bastard" is a word abuse, and a value of judgement or perception. In nature there's no such thing as bastards.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the W

#60

Unread post by porus » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:32 am

anajmi wrote: Adam (as) was the first human created. That doesn't mean he was the only one created. You don't need Darwin to explain it. Just a little bit of common sense would suffice.
How true! God has created many humans. The latest estimate is six billion and counting.

The great mufassir of the Quran, Ibn Kathir, relates the story of the children of Adam. First, Adam had two sons by Eve, Habil and Qabil. God decided he needed more humans so Adam and Eve had two twin girls, one beautiful and the other ugly. God ordered that Habil marry his beautiful sister and Qabil, the ugly one.

Qabil became extremely jealous and killed his brother Habil. That was the first murder.

So, the conclusion is that Adam's progeny started out by incest.

If children born to parents without marriage certificate are bastards, what do you call those born out of incest?
Last edited by porus on Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.