The Quran Challenge

[Muslim First]

Where is the Doctrine of Imamah in the Quran?

We ask the reader: where is the doctrine of Imamah in the Quran? This is a very sound question. The Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) that whenever we feel lost, we can consult the Quran and it will never betray us. The Shia doctrine of Imamah is not a minor issue, but rather it is very important and it is the core belief of the Shia. Its importance is to the extent that the Shia Ulema hold that because of disbelief in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. If this is the case, then we ask the reader: which verses of the Quran have given us this “all-important” doctrine of Imamah?
If Imamah is central to Islam, and the Quran is the central book of Islam, then surely the Quran should have the belief of Imamah in it. And yet, for hundreds of years, the Shia scholars have not been able to answer the “Quran Challenge.” The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama’ah has repeatedly challenged the Shia to produce even one single verse in the Quran that outlines the Shia concept of Imamah. Time and time again, anyone who tries to seek proof for Imamah from the Quran fails to do so.

The Quran Challenge

This is an open challenge for the Shia to give Quranic verses which outline and justify the Shia concept of Imamah. Can the Shia produce even a single verse outlining Imamah, without any additions to the translation, without parenthetical insertions to the translation, without Hadith to “support” their interpretation, without Tafseer, and without their own personal commentaries leading us from verse to verse?

When the Shia is forced to produce the Quranic verses without any additions, he will find it impossible to even come close to fulfilling the “Quran Challenge.” Not a single verse in the Quran says anything even remotely close to “O believers, after the Prophet, there will be Imams chosen by Allah and you should follow them.” The Shia can never produce a single verse in the Quran that shows anything even similar to this. In fact, the Shia will be forced to produce long Tafseer and circuitious arguments involving certain verses with added meanings to them; but if we ask the Shia to simply read the verse without any insertions, then suddenly they cannot produce even a single verse in the Quran to justify Imamah. Suffice to say that the Shia becomes polemically incapacitated if he is forced to use the Quran and Quran alone.

The Shia have stated that Imamah is the fundamental of faith, and so there should thus be many verses in the Quran on this topic. Yet, the “Quran Challenge” only asks for the Shia to produce even a couple of verses from the Quran, yet even this is not possible. Not a single verse in the Quran mentions the names of their Infallible Imams; not even Ali’s name (رضّى الله عنه) is ever mentioned in the Quran. But more importantly than this, there is not a single mention of the very concept of Imamah. This is peculiar, to say the least; how can Imamah be part of Usool-e-Deen (a fundamental pillar of faith) and yet not be mentioned even a single time in the Quran? The truth is that the Quran mentions all the fundamentals of belief, and if something is not in the Quran, then that “thing” cannot possibly be a fundamental of belief.

Imamah Not Mentioned in Quran

Every single fundamental of Islam is mentioned in the Quran numerous times. Tawheed and the concept of Allah (عز و جل) are mentioned over two thousand times. The concept of Messengers and Prophets [Risalah and Nabuwwah] is mentioned repeatedly; [/color] [/b] in fact, the words “Rasool” and “Nabi” is used over four hundred times. All of the other Usool-e-Deen (fundamental of religion), other than Imamah, are mentioned hundreds of times in the Quran. Yet, the Quran remains completely silent on the issue of Imamah.

The Shia say that Imamah is one of the Usool-e-Deen, but we see that even the Furoo-e-Deen (the subsidiary and secondary parts of religion) are mentioned much more than Imamah is (which is actually never mentioned). Salat (prayer), the second pillar of Islam, is mentioned 700 times in the Quran. Zakat (charity), the third pillar of Islam, has been mentioned over 150 times. And yet, where is Imamah? The Quran is the complete guide for humanity, and yet the Shia are saying that the fundamental core belief (i.e. Imamah) is not in it.

The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is divinely appointed as the the Messenger of Allah (عز و جل) and that we should follow him. If there was another divinely appointed person we were supposed to follow after him, shouldn’t his name also be mentioned in the Quran? Why is it too much to ask that the twelve Imams be named in the Quran? Or how about even one of them? Not even Ali (رضّى الله عنه) is named in the Quran. For argument sake, we will not even demand names; what about even the very concept of divinely appointed Imams that will come after the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and that we must follow them? We would argue that Allah (عز و جل) should have included the names of such people for the book to really be complete, yet we are unable to find even a single verse in the Quran which describes even the concept of Imamah. Not a single verse can the Shia produce in this regard.
The Quran is the ultimate guide for humanity. It contains all the fundamental beliefs of our faith. If Imamah was really a part of our faith, then it would be in the Quran. But Imamah is not in the Quran and we reject whatever belief is not justified in the Quran. There are many verses in the Quran that say that the believers are those who pray, give alms to the poor, do good deeds, and other such things; but why is it that not a single verse says the believers are those who follow and obey the Infallible Imam?


The Quran Challenge
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... -challenge

The Quran Challenge, Part II
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-2

The Quran Challenge, Part III
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-3

The Quran Challenge, Part IV
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-4

[humble_servant_us]

Where is the Doctrine of Imamah in the Quran?

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... chap10.php

[humble_servant_us]

We ask the reader: where is the doctrine of Imamah in the Quran? This is a very sound question. The Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) that whenever we feel lost, we can consult the Quran and it will never betray us. The Shia doctrine of Imamah is not a minor issue, but rather it is very important and it is the core belief of the Shia.

The issue of khilafat(leader) among muslims is more important than imamat in shias. The reason being that they even did not wait for the burial of the prophet(pbuh) before appointing the khalifa. Considering such high importance of khilafat , surely it is expected that prophet(pbuh) and quran who have explained every affair for life should have said on this issue but unfortunately muslims have nothing from prophet(pbuh) or quran in this regard.

Atleast shias have the numerous occasions recorded when prophet(pbuh) called ali(as) as his successor. The final being on the day of ghadeer when he declared ali(As) as his successor. To support the importance of imamat, there was a quranic revelation on that day .

1) "O Messenger (of Allah)! Convey what has been revealed to you from your Lord. And if you do it not, then you have not, delivered His message (prophethood), and Allah will protect you from the people. Surely Allah will not guide the disbelieving people."(Surah Maidah, 5:67).

2) "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion."(Surah Maidah, 5:3)

[Muslim First]

Atleast shias have the numerous occasions recorded when prophet(pbuh) called ali(as) as his successor. The final being on the day of ghadeer when he declared ali(As) as his successor. To support the importance of imamat, there was a quranic revelation on that day .

1) "O Messenger (of Allah)! Convey what has been revealed to you from your Lord. And if you do it not, then you have not, delivered His message (prophethood), and Allah will protect you from the people. Surely Allah will not guide the disbelieving people."(Surah Maidah, 5:67).

2) "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion."(Surah Maidah, 5:3)

Unfortunately for Islam Prophet SAW never explicitaly called Ali RA his successor. Majority of Muslims adopted this view.
1. Majority Muslim believe 5:67and 5:3 was revealed on the day of last sermon on the occassion of Prophet's only Hajj. This is the view of majority of Muslims.

Here is a paragraph from “Sirat Ibn Isham” abridge pdf version of it is on net. You can down load here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3141151/Sirat-Ibn-Hisham
It is on page 282 page 292 on the top Index

“Abdulla Ibn Abbas said that on the same day Ali Ibn Talib went out to the people after being with the Prophet (Pbuh) so they asked him how the Prophet (Pbuh) was doing, “Thanks to Allah he has recovered,” he replied. Al-Abbas took him by the hand saying “O Ali, I swear by Allah that I can see death in the Prophet’s face, as I used to see in the faces of sons of Abdul- Muttalib". So let us go to the Prophet (Pbuh), in case that authority to be within us, we will know it, and in case it is to be with others we will ask him to enjoin the people to treat us well.” Ali said, “By Allah I will not do so"[/i]. If it is refrained from us, none after him will give it to us”. The Prophet died when the noon heat of the day increased.
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The same account is in the book “MUHHAMMAD his life based on the earliest sources” by Martin Lings which is based on Sirah of Ibn-Isham , chapter “the choice”, page 341and refers to Hadith of IBN Ishak.

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My question to you is why Hz Ali RA and Hz Ibn Abbas RA were even discussing about succession if it was given to Hz Ali during Gadhir event.

Why did he say “none after him will give it to us”
Does it mean if Prophet said NO then that will shut door on Ali’s Khilafat, which he did achieve after 20 plus years!!!!!

[Muslim First]

Al-Muiz

BTW, the QAuran DOESNT tell you how to pray namaaz, does it mean you should not pray, becuz its not in the Quran?

Read this

Shia Response #1
“There are also no verses in the Quran to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from the Hadith and not the Quran.

”

Firstly, the Shia consider Imamah to be fundamental of religion whereas Salat (prayer) is subsidiary and secondary part of religion. Hence, the comparison between the two is unfair, because Salat is considered an Islamic ritual (a Fiqh matter) whereas Imamah is considered essential to the core belief of Islam, on the same level as Tawheed, Prophethood, and the Day of Judgment.

Imamah is important enough to convince the Shia to separate themselves from the mainstream Islam. If the only difference between the Shia and mainstream Muslims was the way they perform prayer, then they would never have become a sect outside of orthodox Islam.

Having said that, the reality is that Salat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran. In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters. So we wonder why the Shia would compare Salat with Imamah. Salat is mentioned over 700 times, whereas Imamah is never mentioned.

Certainly, with such a vast and strong reference to Salat from Quran, Muslims will refer to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to know the details. Nobody is saying that the Quran should contain the nitty-gritty of where our hands should be placed while praying and other such minor Fiqh issues. But the concept of Salat is very much stressed in the Quran; again and again, Allah (عز و جل) says that the believers are those who establish Salat. There is not a single reference to Imamah; had Imamah been simply outlined in the Quran, then the Muslims could refer to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) for the nitty-gritty details such as how much Khums to pay to the Imam and other such minor Fiqh issues. And yet, Imamah is never mentioned even fleetingly.

The truth is that Imamah is an imaginary concept concocted by the Shia scholars and it does not exist. If it existed, it would be in the Quran; its absence from the Quran is evidence of its imaginary nature. Salat is mentioned 700 times, and yet we find zero verses in the Quran about “Infallible Imams;” even the name of Ali (رضّى الله عنه), the leader of these Imams, is not mentioned.

We wonder why Salat is mentioned so many times in the Quran, but there is absolutely no mention of the 12 Imams, the Infallible Imamah, or even the divine Imamah of Ali (رضّى الله عنه)? The Shia believe that Imamah is Usool-e-Deen (i.e. primary) whereas Salat is Furoo-e-Deen (i.e. secondary). So why would a minor point be mentioned so many times and not the major one? In Islam, it is Haram to enter someone else’s house without first knocking on the door and getting permission. This is mentioned in the Quran. How come something so miniscule as this could be mentioned in the Quran and yet we find nothing on the “all-important” concept of Imamah, which is supposedly the main pillar of belief? And consider this with Allah’s (عز و جل) declaration: “We have left nothing out in the Book.” (Quran, 6:38)

[Al-Muizz]

Al-Muiz

BTW, the QAuran DOESNT tell you how to pray namaaz, does it mean you should not pray, becuz its not in the Quran?

Read this

Shia Response #1
“There are also no verses in the Quran to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from the Hadith and not the Quran.

”

Firstly, the Shia consider Imamah to be fundamental of religion whereas Salat (prayer) is subsidiary and secondary part of religion. Hence, the comparison between the two is unfair, because Salat is considered an Islamic ritual (a Fiqh matter) whereas Imamah is considered essential to the core belief of Islam, on the same level as Tawheed, Prophethood, and the Day of Judgment.

Imamah is important enough to convince the Shia to separate themselves from the mainstream Islam. If the only difference between the Shia and mainstream Muslims was the way they perform prayer, then they would never have become a sect outside of orthodox Islam.

Having said that, the reality is that Salat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran. In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters. So we wonder why the Shia would compare Salat with Imamah. Salat is mentioned over 700 times, whereas Imamah is never mentioned.

Certainly, with such a vast and strong reference to Salat from Quran, Muslims will refer to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to know the details. Nobody is saying that the Quran should contain the nitty-gritty of where our hands should be placed while praying and other such minor Fiqh issues. But the concept of Salat is very much stressed in the Quran; again and again, Allah (عز و جل) says that the believers are those who establish Salat. There is not a single reference to Imamah; had Imamah been simply outlined in the Quran, then the Muslims could refer to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) for the nitty-gritty details such as how much Khums to pay to the Imam and other such minor Fiqh issues. And yet, Imamah is never mentioned even fleetingly.

The truth is that Imamah is an imaginary concept concocted by the Shia scholars and it does not exist. If it existed, it would be in the Quran; its absence from the Quran is evidence of its imaginary nature. Salat is mentioned 700 times, and yet we find zero verses in the Quran about “Infallible Imams;” even the name of Ali (رضّى الله عنه), the leader of these Imams, is not mentioned.

We wonder why Salat is mentioned so many times in the Quran, but there is absolutely no mention of the 12 Imams, the Infallible Imamah, or even the divine Imamah of Ali (رضّى الله عنه)? The Shia believe that Imamah is Usool-e-Deen (i.e. primary) whereas Salat is Furoo-e-Deen (i.e. secondary). So why would a minor point be mentioned so many times and not the major one? In Islam, it is Haram to enter someone else’s house without first knocking on the door and getting permission. This is mentioned in the Quran. How come something so miniscule as this could be mentioned in the Quran and yet we find nothing on the “all-important” concept of Imamah, which is supposedly the main pillar of belief? And consider this with Allah’s (عز و جل) declaration: “We have left nothing out in the Book.” (Quran, 6:38)

Give me verse chapter and line where in the Quran it says,
1. Maghrib has 3 rakaats, and between two rakaats there is such a dua
2. Maghrib has sunnat, Ishaa has Sunnat AND the number of rakaats you have to prays for EACH of the salaats..........You would think the Allah Subhanahu would have put all these essential details in the Quraan, given that Salaat is mandatory? If you only needed the Quraan, why have the Prophet SAW teaching you HOW to pray salaat anyways? Why not just make up your own prayers? NOTHING has been left out of the Quraan, BUT what is in there requires someone who can tell you about it. If it was such a simple thig as to read the Quraan and know it, then I gave the Quraan (Eng translation) to my friend and asked him to tell me how to pray salaat......no response.......why?

See my point? Rasulallah SAW said to the Muslims they have 2 THINGS they need to hold tightly, the Quraan and HIS ITRAAT. How did we all learn how to pray? That's right Rasulallah SAW. AFTER HIM, you would need to follow HIS ITRAAT for guidance.

[anajmi]

And can you quote Rasul (saw) defining Imamat? or Hazrat Ali/Imam Hassan/Imam Hussain defining Imamat?

Between Allah and his Rasul, salaah has been completed. Is Imamat similarly completed between Allah and his Rasul? Why do you think the Imams haven't been able to make changes to salaah after the prophet (saw) finalized it? If Imamat is a greater pillar than salaah itself, why is the Imam hiding and corrupt Dais ruling? The salaah has been preserved but the Imamat has been broken into pieces with every shia sect having his own Imam!!

[Al-Muizz]

And can you quote Rasul (saw) defining Imamat? or Hazrat Ali/Imam Hassan/Imam Hussain defining Imamat?

Between Allah and his Rasul, salaah has been completed. Is Imamat similarly completed between Allah and his Rasul? Why do you think the Imams haven't been able to make changes to salaah after the prophet (saw) finalized it? If Imamat is a greater pillar than salaah itself, why is the Imam hiding and corrupt Dais ruling? The salaah has been preserved but the Imamat has been broken into pieces with every shia sect having his own Imam!!

How would you define Itraat?

And BTW, no Shia believes that imamat is a greater pillar than salah....these are two different things, and you know this.

And you don't think that Sunnis are divided into pieces? Every so called moallim can issue a fatwa. Who would you believe? There is even a website called fatwa.com! Every country, every city has their own fatwas......how divided is that?

My issue is really simple. Allah said the religion of Islam is Perfect. The Prophet SAW said follow the Quraan and his Itraat. Now, the two are not mutually exclusive-you can't take one and not the other!

[anajmi]

The Quran is present. This "itraat" is gone!! For one sect, the "itraat" is in hiding. For another sect, this "itraat" actually got rid of the salaah that was completed by Allah and his rasul (saw). Nice "itraat" you guys are following!!

[Al-Muizz]

The Quran is present. This "itraat" is gone!! For one sect, the "itraat" is in hiding. For another sect, this "itraat" actually got rid of the salaah that was completed by Allah and his rasul (saw). Nice "itraat" you guys are following!!

Who said the Itraat is gone?

[anajmi]

Isn't your itraat hiding?

[Al-Muizz]

Isn't your itraat hiding?

No! Imam satr does not mean the knowledge is also hidden. The duat kiraam continue propagating the knowledge! This Nur of Allah Subhanhu never stops illuminating. Sure the Imam is in satr, but his Duats are performing the job as we speak.

As for the Aga Khanis...what can I say.....you and I are in agreement about their interpretations being what they are. You know full well, however, that Bohras do follow Islamic diams.

By your argument, God Almighty must be wrong in all aspects of getting the complete message out...Allah Subhanahu sent Nuh Nabi, didn't get the message across, led to a flood, then Ebrahim Nabi., still people did not get the Oneness of Allah Subhanahu, then came Nabi Musa ., still people didn't get it, then sent Isa Nabi who added more to the texts....yet the Jews did not convert to Christianity, then came Rasulallah SAW, who brought the message that Islam completes the package that Allah sought to start from Adam Nabi and that Islam is now PERFECT....still the Christians and the Jews did not convert. Then there was a major disagreement on who should lead the Muslims, yet another disagreement, and then more disagreement as to which Imam leads or doesn't lead......... The majority pass an election in the Sakifa when Moula Ali A.S. and the Ahlul Bait were busy with Rasulallah SAW janazah, and usurped one of very thing the Prophet SAW said to not let go of!

Weren't all the Prophets and their teachings from Allah Subhanahu anyways? So, by your argument, Allah Subhanahu has no clue what is the right approach? Afterall, Muhammed was ordained by Allah Subhanahu, and Muhammed said Ali is my wasi, akhi, wali, and Muhammed said that Ali is the Muslim ummah's Mowla....you would think Muhammed did this under Allah Subhanahu's guidance right?

What's my point? You agree with me that despite Allah Subhanahu passing on the message to humans, we make our own judgments on what to follow and what not to follow. When Musa Nabi went to the pahar, the people knew full well about Allah Subhanahu and that they were supposed to listen to Haroon Nabi, but did they do this?

But there is a right path, and everyone claims they are on the right path.
There is no compulsion in religion, precisely because this is the biggest test we as humans will face...this is indeed what being human is all about, and Allah Subhanahu is going to judge you on this very issue. Knowing all that is out there, what do you, a human gifted by Allah Subhanahu to have the ability first to know about Allah Subhanahu's existence, to know about the Prophets and their continuous addition until Islam of God's message, and with all that, to make the call as to what to follow and what not to follow?

So, is it such a big surprise that there are so many firqas in Islam? Why do I believe the Path I am taking is the Right Path? I still have a Leader who is guiding me on this perilous journey. This Journey with many roads, but only one that will lead me to my destination. I don't have to go to a website to get my latest fatwa, and I don't have a lunatic telling me a fatwa to do so and so is O.K. and then other so-called experts agreeing or disagreeing on this......I turn to one voice to guide me through.

[anajmi]

No! Imam satr does not mean the knowledge is also hidden. The duat kiraam continue propagating the knowledge! This Nur of Allah Subhanhu never stops illuminating. Sure the Imam is in satr, but his Duats are performing the job as we speak.

So you agree, that this "itraat" is nothing more than knowledge. The knowledge is propagated through those that are learned. The prophet's "itraat" is nothing but his life. The two things he left behind are the Quran and the knowledge about his life!! Everything else is created by those who want to be sultans and kings!!

[anajmi]

By your argument, God Almighty must be wrong in all aspects of getting the complete message out.....

Actually, that is not my argument, that is your argument. The prophets delivered the message just fine. People chose not to follow the message. So they were destroyed. But now we have an everlasting message in the Quran and the life of the prophet. So we have to wait till the day of judgment!!

Why do I believe the Path I am taking is the Right Path? I still have a Leader who is guiding me on this perilous journey.

You mean the Dai? Seriously?

[Aarif]

I still have a Leader who is guiding me on this perilous journey.

With Syedna as your leader your peril will only increase as you move forward in your journey

[Al-Muizz]

By your argument, God Almighty must be wrong in all aspects of getting the complete message out.....

Actually, that is not my argument, that is your argument. The prophets delivered the message just fine. People chose not to follow the message. So they were destroyed. But now we have an everlasting message in the Quran and the life of the prophet. So we have to wait till the day of judgment!!........so how is this any different now, when the Itraat, Ali AS and the Ahlul Bait is not followed?..........The everlasting message of the Prophet is HIS ITRAAT!

Why do I believe the Path I am taking is the Right Path? I still have a Leader who is guiding me on this perilous journey.

You mean the Dai? Seriously?

.........The Imam AND his Dai, YES! And Aarif, if you think this journey is not perilous, ask all those suicide bombers who were told there was a fatwa that guaranteed their eternal salvation, and the rest of the so-called experts who debate whether this is good or bad, like a high school debate on God's religion!

Look, the Prophet clearly spelled it out for everyone, follow the Quran and the Itraat. Just like the examples you correctly stated, those who don't follow this command will be destroyed. How simple can it get? Muhammed says follow my Itraat and Ahlul Bait.......Ali is the Leader....he appoints another leader, who appoints another, nur ala nur, follow the light! Those who can't seem to see the light will perish!

Aarif, really funny dude! But remember, Abu Sufyan also made such comments about the Leadership ordained by God......dare I say he now rests in pieces?

[anajmi]

.........The Imam AND his Dai,

It has been clearly established now that the Imam has been hiding for hunderds of years and no one knows if he or his kin is alive or not. We only have the word of the Dia who has been established as a corrupt individual who hasn't taught anything to the bohras that they couldn't learn from the life of the prophet except how to treat himself like a Sultan. Unless Al-Muizz can give us an example!!

Muhammed says follow my Itraat and Ahlul Bait

from the Quran and "itraat" it has now gone to "itraat" and Ahlul Bayt. Which is it? Quran and itraat, Quran and Ahlul Bayt or itraat and ahlul bayt?

[Al-Muizz]

.........The Imam AND his Dai,

It has been clearly established now that the Imam has been hiding for hunderds of years and no one knows if he or his kin is alive or not. We only have the word of the Dia who has been established as a corrupt individual who hasn't taught anything to the bohras that they couldn't learn from the life of the prophet except how to treat himself like a Sultan. Unless Al-Muizz can give us an example!!

Muhammed says follow my Itraat and Ahlul Bait

from the Quran and "itraat" it has now gone to "itraat" and Ahlul Bayt. Which is it? Quran and itraat, Quran and Ahlul Bayt or itraat and ahlul bayt?

O.K. You clearly know what I mean....so let me spell it out just in case....the two things are 1. The Quraan....2. The Itraat (The Ahlul Bait ARE the Itraat)

If you cannot respect the message, how can you respect the messenger? Therefore, if you say the interpretation of what Muhammed SAW said is wrong and your interpretation is right, then in effect you are saying all Muhammed SAW said is wrong, since, The Prophet SAID all the rest of the things he said as well.....why select certain things to believe?

The reason for the Itraat is this very issue we are discussing. WHO has the RIGHT to PROTECT the knowledge? A bunch of clowns who learned a few things and now believe they can issue a fatwa for a buck? A bunch of clowns who sit around sipping kahwas and debating about this PERFECT Religion of Allah and whether a fatwa was appropriate, like supreme court justices? The Itraat is there to protect this precious knowledge from corruption that the Sunnis have done so well. Afterall, Imam Husayn A.S. died in order to protect this Knowledge from corruption by Yezid LA.

This Knowledge is unlike any human derived knowledge. You can't have a shura deciding what is right and what is wrong. If this was the case, Allah would have sent the Holy books to the Prophets told them to reveal it, then sit back and let the people interprete it the way they deem fit. Allah would have told Nabi Musa to get the wisest of his people (and who would decide who is wise enough to be in the shura?) and get them to read the message and interprete it? The issue is not a small matter.

[anajmi]

Even if the prophet (saw) said "Quran and Ahlul Bayt" (which is ofcourse disputed), Dai is not a part of Ahlul Bayt. The last "Ahlul Bayt" went into hiding hundreds of years ago. If the prophet (saw) said Quran and Ahlul Bayt, what gave the Ahlul Bayt the right to go into hiding and leave the affairs in the hands of corrupt Dais?

What have the Dais taught you that the prophet (saw) and his life hasn't other than kissing his feet and worshipping him? Can you give me the interpretation of the message according to your Dai? or the last Ahlul Bayt before he went into hiding?

[Aarif]

Aarif, really funny dude! But remember, Abu Sufyan also made such comments about the Leadership ordained by God......dare I say he now rests in pieces?

Was Syedna elected by god? In that case he is a prophet and not a Dai.

BTW: Syedna has all the great qualities of Abu Sufiyan before he became a Muslim, like hoarding wealth, promoting idol worship, opposing and destroying those who come in his way, living a life full of luxuries etc...

[Al-Muizz]

Even if the prophet (saw) said "Quran and Ahlul Bayt" (which is ofcourse disputed), Dai is not a part of Ahlul Bayt. The last "Ahlul Bayt" went into hiding hundreds of years ago. If the prophet (saw) said Quran and Ahlul Bayt, what gave the Ahlul Bayt the right to go into hiding and leave the affairs in the hands of corrupt Dais?

What have the Dais taught you that the prophet (saw) and his life hasn't other than kissing his feet and worshipping him? Can you give me the interpretation of the message according to your Dai? or the last Ahlul Bayt before he went into hiding?

As I mentioned earlier, Imam Satr does not mean that the message of Allah Subhanhu is also hidden and not protected. This Light of God is not in seclusion. Follow this Light and you will be safe. Deviate from it, and you will be lost, as you certainly are right now:) Listen, Husayn Imam A.S. died because it was his GOD-GIVEN right to protect this sacred knowledge revealed to the Prophet SAW. IF he didn't think so, why would he really care? So many so-called Sunnis did not do anything to question Yezid LA whom many claim as a Caliph?

There will ALWAYS be a protector of Allah Subhanahus Knowledge....whether you believe it or not, really does not matter....just as there is a Leader to protect this sacred Knowledge, there are followers of this Leader. Just because you don't believe in it, ridicule it, belittle it, does not make it insignificant. Many more like you have existed, and many more like you will exist....it is so stated in the Quraan AND by the Prophet SAW, what more can I say!

As for your argument of the Dai. Let's see what the Duats have done wrong. 1. Told us to stay on the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW, 2. Told us to not listen to all these noise makers issuing a buck a fatwa, 3. Told us to follow the Diams of Islam by example....Aqa Moula TUS will stop a waez to get to Salah, preaches about the importance of Ramadhan, importance of paying zakat, importance of fighting the biggest jihad-the jihad of the soul. 4.Even died for the Religion of Islam! Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA! These Sunnis you so strongly believe in.....did you know who owns the majority stake in Citibank? Since your guide is ONLY the Quraan, how many times does the Quraan say lanaat on riba takers? You have the family of the so-called Custodian of the Two Holy Mosque wheeling and dealing in riba! So much for following the sunnah of the Prophet SAW, or the Quraan!

In this day of modernity, we are being taught to hold tightly to the teachings of Islam that many argue are outdated, irrelevant, unnecessary. This is all wrong, by you. This is all insignificant by you.

[anajmi]

As I mentioned earlier, Imam Satr does not mean that the message of Allah Subhanhu is also hidden and not protected. This Light of God is not in seclusion.

So you agree that Imam is not the light. The Imam can go into hiding but not the light and that we do not actually need the Imam to propagate the light. Correct?

[anajmi]

1. Told us to stay on the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW,

So did the prophet (saw) himself as do all learned Islamic scholars.

2. Told us to not listen to all these noise makers issuing a buck a fatwa,

So do all learned Islamic scholars.

Aqa Moula TUS will stop a waez to get to Salah

He would be a sinner if he doesn't. He isn't doing anything out of the ordinary. Most learned Islamic scholars interrupt their lectures, waezs at the starting time of prayer. The Dai waits till the very last minute before starting prayer. According to one of the prophet's hadiths, a person who waits till the last moment to offer his prayer is a hypocrite.

These Sunnis you so strongly believe in.....did you know who owns the majority stake in Citibank?

Who gives a crap about Citibank? Does Bukhari or Muslim talk about Citibank?

we are being taught to hold tightly to the teachings of Islam that many argue are outdated

What teachings of Islam? Kissing Dais feet? Offering Ziafat and Salaam? Standing in front of him with folded arms? Kissing the tires of his car?

[Al-Muizz]

As I mentioned earlier, Imam Satr does not mean that the message of Allah Subhanhu is also hidden and not protected. This Light of God is not in seclusion.

So you agree that Imam is not the light. The Imam can go into hiding but not the light and that we do not actually need the Imam to propagate the light. Correct?

The Message AND the Messenger are part of the package. The Light that is God's Knowledge ALWAYS has a Leader to propagate it. If God really believed humans are smart enough to read the Quraan (or any other Holy text) and come up with good interpretations of the Divine Knowledge, why even have a Prophet? Just release the latest edition and viola, let the shuras get it on and come up with an interpretation!

The Imam being satr does not mean anybody can issue fatwas they deem fit. There is a designated Leader out there-one leader, not a collection of so-called experts who read YusufAli et als translation and think they know what the Quraan is saying. As I mentioned by example, the message comes with the messenger! The Quraan AND the Itraat. You can't believe one and not the other.

And a logical argument can be this. Why do you (and I seriously hope NOT) OR don't you believe a fatwa like that issued by the terrorists that it is perfectly O.K. to kill anyone who does not believe in the Sunni version of Islam? Who gave you the authority to reject the fatwa? Who told you not to believe the fatwa? These fatwas were issued by so-called Islamic scholars. So which Islamic scholar should you listen to? Or is it that if the message sounds good to you 'cause you personally like it, you follow it? So how is that different from a terrorist who says he/she follows a fatwa he/she believes is true? Then by default, the entire Sunni Muslim population should vote a fatwa yes or no, say at fatwa.com, to legitimize it........there is afterall NO fatwa issuer you trust, so how do you tell which of these fatwas is legit?

Easy to discount the basic fact that the people who legitimize the fatwas are themselves breaking the basic tenets of Islam...that's why I brought up the Citibank example. To you that is a minor point. Something as significant as this can be considered a relatively minor point to you, then you are espousing you know more than the Quraan itself on what is significant to be followed and what isn't?

[anajmi]

Any fatwa issued by anybody, needs to be analysed in the light of the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Any tom dick and harry can issue a fatwa to kill innocents. What gives me the right to reject the fatwa is the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. C'mon, you are not that dumb are you? Anybody with a little bit of a brain and eagerness to understand the Quran will know that killing innocents is a big sin in Islam.

Similarly, a fatwa issued by a corrupt Dai and his family to kiss his hands and his feet and to stand in front of him with folded hands can be rejected in the light of the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. But ofcourse, there are blind followers in every sect. Bohras kissing the Dais feet and fanatics killing innocents.

By the way, I have noticed that in every one of your post, you skirted the issues that I have pointed out with your current propagator of this "Light". Fortunately, the light doesn't need corrupt leaders for its propagation. So they can go into hiding or turn into evil hoarders. The light is still there to guide us!!

[Al-Muizz]

Any fatwa issued by anybody, needs to be analysed in the light of the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Any tom dick and harry can issue a fatwa to kill innocents. What gives me the right to reject the fatwa is the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. C'mon, you are not that dumb are you? Anybody with a little bit of a brain and eagerness to understand the Quran will know that killing innocents is a big sin in Islam.

......Listen to yourself, man! Now, you are going to decide what in the Quraan is legit and what in the Quraan is not legit? And who gave you the authority to reject these fatwas, which by the way your so-called highly knowledgable Islamic Scholars justify USING THE QURAAN? So now you are issuing your OWN fatwa to follow or not to follow the other FATWAS? So, whose interpretations of the Quraan are correct, then?

Similarly, a fatwa issued by a corrupt Dai and his family to kiss his hands and his feet and to stand in front of him with folded hands can be rejected in the light of the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. But ofcourse, there are blind followers in every sect. Bohras kissing the Dais feet and fanatics killing innocents

.......There is no such fatwa, and you know this.

By the way, I have noticed that in every one of your post, you skirted the issues that I have pointed out with your current propagator of this "Light". Fortunately, the light doesn't need corrupt leaders for its propagation. So they can go into hiding or turn into evil hoarders. The light is still there to guide us!!

..............Nice to see that Allah's Light is such a source of amusement for ya. I have addressed it repeatedly, but you choose to ignore what I wrote:)

[anajmi]

which by the way your so-called highly knowledgable Islamic Scholars justify USING THE QURAAN? So now you are issuing your OWN fatwa to follow or not to follow the other FATWAS? So, whose interpretations of the Quraan are correct, then?

It doesn't really matter in your case does it? Just like a suicide bomber is willing to follow someone blindly, you too are willing to follow someone blindly. I have shown multiple times that the one that you follow blindly is corrupt. If you are unable to differentiate between right and wrong, then maybe you deserve to follow whoever it is that you follow!!

.......There is no such fatwa, and you know this.

So the bohras are just plain dumb is it?

[Muslim First]

Momin

Qur’an challenge is not looking for long circular analysis but simple direct reference to Imamat or Ali.
Somethin like this

And (remember) when his Lord tried Muhammad with His commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: I have appointed you an Prophet for mankind. Muhammad said: And of my Ahl-e-Bait as Imam?