Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

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ghulam muhammed
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#31

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Bro Aarif,

Good to see you on this forum after a long time. With due respects to you, I would totally disagree with your contention that the cause of a distressed Muslim woman is the religion of Islam. In fact it was Islam which was the FIRST to give various rights to women which they were deprived off earlier. The earlier religions of Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism treated their women very shabbily and womenfolk were MOST suppressed during that time. I would in fact blame the so called sectarian leaders of Islam for the present deteriorating condition of women because everyone of them have interpreted Islamic laws in their own way to suit their own hidden agenda. Why only womens rights ? Even the concept of Jihad, Zakat and other obligatory rituals have been interpreted in a wrong manner.

What better example then our own bohra clergy who have demolished the very concept of Zakat by forcefully collecting it from its followers an amount which is many a times far beyond the reach of an ordinary bohra, furthermore they use it as their 'Income' to sustain the extravagant lifestyles of the zaadas. Take the example of 'Mehr', see the amount which is specified by the bohra clergy, it is mostly 552 or Rs.786. Does this meagre amount in anyway take care of the woman or does it justify the principles of mehr as was percieved by Prophet (s.a.w.) ? Even in divorce matters the bohra woman suffers the most and hardly gets any maintainence for her or her children. The courts are more liberal and understand Islam better then these clergy mafias which is the reason that women nowadays approach the judiciary to address their grieviances. The courts too base their judgements as per 'Muslim personal law' by which the muslims are governed. In fact the wahabis whom we despise off are much better when it comes to giving mehr. See the amount of mehr the arabs give to their wives, it is in millions.

Look at the atrocities commited on women in Shia dominated Iran, the concept of 'Muta' which is nothing but a perverted version of legalised prostitution is rampant over there. In fact they consider Muta as 'Sawab' and attribute the act to none other then Mola Ali (a.s.) and Ahle Bayt (a.s.). Any sane person would outright reject the concept of muta but it is still there because the males distort the version of Islam to satisfy their inner urge.

I could go on and on but would rather like to post a comment which I recieved from an Islamic Scholar which is as below :-

In an epochal declaration (4:1), the Qur’an sweeps away all the demeaning, discriminatory and oppressive rules, customs and taboos that were reserved for womenfolk in all major civilizations:

“O Humankind! Heed (attaqu) your Lord who created you from a single self and created from it its spouse (zauja) and scattered from the two countless men and women. Heed God (attaqu al-Lah) through whom you demand (your mutual rights) and (heed) the wombs (arham)” (4:1)

The verse begins with a reminder to heed God, captures the procreative process of humanity in a flash, and concludes with a call to heed (show reverence) to the wombs (arham) that obviously symbolizes the women folk. With this, we proceed to expound its laws on marriage, beginning with the third verses of the same Sura:
“If you fear that you cannot do justice (qist) by the orphans, marry women who please you - two or three or four; but if you still fear that you cannot treat (them) equitably (‘adilu), then only one, or (marry) someone under your lawful trust. Then it is most likely that you will not act unjustly” (4:3).

The verse has an undeniable existential dimension. A relatively large number of women were rendered unprotected by any male next of kin (father, husband, brother) due to war casualties. The Qur’an allows the custodians of these women to marry up to four such women only if they could deal with them equitably. In a later verse, however, the Qur’an declares that it is not possible for a man to have equal affection for each of his wife:
“You will never be able to treat (more than one) wife equitably (‘adilu), however eager you may be…” (4:129).

Pieced together, the pronouncements of the verses 4:3 and 4:129 suggest that the primary recommendation of the Qur’an is for monogamy. The Qur’an furnishes copious illustrations to corroborate this notion.

i) Wherever the Qur’an refers to the wives of other prophets, such as those of Abraham (11:71, 51:29), Noah (66:10), Lot (11:81, 15:60, 29:33, 66:10), Imran (3:35), Job (38:44), and Zakaria (3:40, 21:90), it is suggestive of each Prophet having one living wife.

ii) The Qur’anic word zauja for spouse denotes a pair: one each of opposite sex. Thus, Adam’s spouse is referred to in the singular form (2:35, 7:19, 20:117), and the two of them are referred to as a pair (2:36, 7:20-22, 20:121).

iii) The Qur’an’s reference to the wives of its other characters, such as Pharaoh (28:9, 66:11), the Egyptian nobleman who had bought Joseph (12:21, 12:23-26), and Abu Lahab (111:4) are suggestive of each having one living wife.

iv) The Qur’anic inheritance laws’ reciprocity between one husband and one wife (4:12) as against the plurality in the shares of sons and daughters (4:11), two or more daughters (4:11), brothers and sisters (4:176), two sisters (4:176), more than two brothers and sisters (4:12).

v) The Qur’anic permission to a woman who just lost her husband, to avail of a year’s maintenance and lodging at her deceased husband’s home (2:240) is suggestive of a man leaving behind one widow.

These Qur’anic illustrations clearly demonstrate that the Qur’an espouses monogamy as a social norm. This view was propounded as early as the third century of Islam and is shared by many eminent Islamic scholars, notably Yusuf Ali, and Ameer Ali. Muhammad Asad and Husayn Haykal refer to the conditional clause of the verse 4:3 and observe that such plural marriages are allowed only in ‘exceptional circumstances.’

If recommendation was ‘towards monogamy’, why wasn't it clearly spelled out?

This question may arise in the mind of some people and needs answering.

Strict monogamy would have resulted in increased suffering and exploitation of women both in the immediate context of the revelation and the broader historical context.

i) In the context of the revelation, introduction of monogamy in a single step would have required the new polygamous converts to part with all but one of their wives, leaving a good number of women without the social protection of a husband – that is virtually without a legal identity. This would have created serious problems relating to the status, preoccupation, livelihood and future of these women, and the custody and maintenance of the children born to them after their separation from their former husbands.

ii) In historical perspective, only men folk took part in trading missions or other civil, political or military assignments leaving their wives behind, as journey to distant places was hazardous and took long. These men, living away from their wives for months and sometimes years, needed women to meet their physical, emotional and biological needs. Strict monogamy in such a setting would have inevitably led such travelers to use women without the bond of marriage resulting in gross exploitation of women and concomitant social vices.

iii) As a universal fact of life, a man's wife may be permanently impaired from discharging her marital role because of ill health, accident etc. Strict monogamy would prevent any second marriage of such a man, and inevitably drive him either to divorce his incapacitated wife and remarry, or to keep a mistress with no marital responsibilities. In either case, the injustice to womenfolk, and to the society as a whole, would be far greater than if the man was to take a second wife, and maintain his first disabled wife as well.

iv) A lifelong divinely ordained monogamous relation can create very serious problems to a widow who will have no prospect to ever getting married as, until recent centuries, was the case in many cultures with dreadful consequences for such widows.

Conclusion: Given the context specificity of the Qur’anic verse on polygamy (4:3), its restrictive clause and that of the verse 4:129, and other compelling Qur’anic illustrations in favor of monogamy as tabled above, the Qur’anic message can be interpreted to support monogamy as the social norm.

The critics who insist on labeling Islam with polygamy may cite the example of the Prophet who had taken many wives. But the fact remains, the Prophet lived in monogamy with his first wife Khadija for about 25 years until her death, and his later marriages were the result of exceptional circumstances. Moreover, the Qur’an makes it amply clear that the Prophet was accorded unique privileges and restrictions with regard to marriage (33:50, 33:52) and therefore his example is not normative for the Muslims. Besides, if the Muslims were required to follow his example, they would have been appalled by the idea of marrying a widow some 15 years older to begin their conjugal life in their prime and live with her in honest monogamy for the next 25 years.

It is time for the Muslim jurists and doctors of law to shed their patriarchal notions and reform the Classical Sharia Law of Islam to preventing a man from taking a second wife except under legally justifiable circumstances, even if the existing wife gives her consent – for a Muslim woman cannot break the law of the Qur’an, without due grounds. The jurists insist on the contractual nature of Islamic marriage but they cannot allow either partner of the marriage to transgress the Qur’anic principle of monogamy with love and mercy between the spouses as a social norm by incorporating any clause in the marriage contract:

“And among His signs is that He has created for you, of yourselves, spouses (azwaj), that you may feel tranquility and relief (taskunu)[5] in her and (He) has set love (mawaddah) and mercy (rahmah) between you. There are signs in this for a people who reflect” (30:21).



Aarif
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#32

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:07 pm

Br. GM,
Thanks for the welcome. Well in your long post you have not even addressed a single issue that I have raised in my post. My post is totally based on my personal observations of how women are treated in general by muslim men and not how the laws are interpreted by the clergy. And honestly I have not even raised some of the other common issues such as why women are not allowed in the masjid unlike men? Why women are forbidden from visting graves of their dear ones? A very close family friend of ours lost her father recently. She told us that in her madhab women are not allowed to visit graves except I guess on the night of shabe-baraat i.e. once in a year. There are many other restrictions on women unlike men in day to day life. I can go on and on. I will give you one more simple example. India is a country that has a secular law system i.e. we have a Muslim Marriages Act, 1939 that allows muslim men and women to marry and divorce as per our Sharia law. However, due to the grave misuse of this Islamic law by muslim men the supreme court dissolved the triple talaq sharia law in India. You can read the below article.
http://www.rghr.net/mainfile.php/0420/270/
This step was only taken on request of poor muslim women who were exploited by their men just because they had the power to divorce them at will. You have a right to your opinion and I agree to that. However, you are not even close to convincing me that there is no problem with our laws when it comes to treating women fairly.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:56 pm

However, you are not even close to convincing me that there is no problem with our laws when it comes to treating women fairly.
After a certain point of time, the convincing is no longer possible or even desirable. It is now upto you to decide what you want to do with the conclusions that you have arrived at. It won't be possible for you to change Islam because it is from God. Either people have misinterpreted the message or they haven't. If they have misinterpreted the message, you will have to bring your interpretation with sufficient proof to convince the people. If they haven't misinterpreted it, then is that how you think God wanted women to be treated? Of course not. In that case, the only conclusion we can arrive at is that Islam is man made and not from God. A woman can declare herself a non-muslim in that case and take advantages of better laws available elsewhere.



feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#34

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:36 am

34 Men are protectors of
women, because God has made
some of them excel others and
because they spend their wealth
on them. So virtuous women are
obedient and guard in the
husband’s absence what God
would have them guard. As for
those from whom you apprehend
infidelity, admonish them, then
refuse to share their beds, and
finally hit them [lightly]. Then
if they obey you, take no further
action against them. For God is
High, Great. 35 If you fear any
breach between a man and his
wife, appoint one arbiter from
his family and one arbiter from
her family. If they both want to
set things right, God will bring
about a reconciliation between
them: He is all knowing and all
aware.



feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#35

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:07 am

Aarif wrote:The problem with Islam is it gives too many rights to man against woman which makes it completely one sided. . .
Islam considered family as an institution where women are free from any kind of financial obligation. She is expected to support her husband in the bringing up children.They are equal and complementry to each other.This is fundamental abt couples in islam.
Aarif wrote:Let's take an example of a Muslim man who keeps a beard, prays five times a day and regularly abuses his wife. He even beats her because as per Quran he is allowed to do that..
has she done any infidelity and her husband is a witness to that 'incident'. [arabic nushooz]. plz note that if the same crime is done by male ,he would be punished by court more rigorously. So women are at safe side being publically humiliated.Also before 'beating' has the husband passed through all the previous stages[admonished,seperating beds].
Beating as adviced in books ''through a stick size of toothbrush[miswak]''



feelgud
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#36

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:17 am

Aarif wrote:Now one fine day this guy decides that he is done abusing his wife and he wants to get rid of her. He immediately pronounces Talaq three times and divorces his wife.
this is against the teachings of quran,Arif,show me if it so in quran.
Aarif wrote:Now there are some key points to be considered out here. As per Islam only a man can directly divorce his wife. If the wife wants a divorce she has to approach a Qazi who will be only able to conduct the divorce on certain very specific grounds such as husband is impotent, in prison etc.
If u are married u must know that ur wife's approval comes first and the qazi comes to you only if she accepted ur proposal .[offer and acceptance]
So when it comes to seperation let husband has his say first and let the women get consultation from her seniors if she wants to take initiative for seperation.



feelgud
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#37

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:25 am

Aarif wrote:In fact most madhabs do not even cover the abuse part. This means that the husband has the right to abuse his wife as long as he pleases and then get rid of her in a minute even against her own will.
You are absolutely right here ,''as long as he pleases'' means the husband follows his' whims' which has nothing to do with islam just like keeping beared , wearing cap and birth in a'muslim family'doesnt make u necessarily a muslim .A muslim is one who follows quran.
If you want to 'please'Allah ,you should obey him.
If you want to please yourself u do whatever u want and lebel it as islamic.



feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#38

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:33 am

Aarif wrote:
Unfortunately this ill-treatment of women is deeply rooted in the origins of Islam which treats women inferior and half as intelligent as men.
The holy Qur’an in Sura 2:282 says, “…And get two witnesses, Out of your own men. And if there are not two men, then a man and two women, Such as ye choose, for witnesses, So that if one of them errs, the other can remind her….”
.
''unfortunately'' finance is not at all women's responsibility in Islam.You should not force them to be witness in such issues..if it is so necessary then make it easier for them.
quran2:282-283
282 Believers, when you
contract a debt for a stated term,
put it down in writing; have a
scribe write it down with fairness
between you. No scribe should
refuse to write: let him write as
God has taught him, let the debtor
dictate, and let him fear God, his
Lord, and not diminish [the debt]
at all. If the debtor is weak in
mind or body, or unable to
dictate, then in fairness let his
guardian dictate for him. Call in
two of your men as witnesses.
But if two men cannot be found,
then call one man and two women
out of those you approve of as
witnesses, so that if one of the
two women should forget the
other can remind her. Let the
witnesses not refuse when they
are summoned. Do not be
disinclined to write down your
debts, be they small or large,
together with the date of
payment. This is more just in the
sight of God; it is more reliable
as testimony, and more likely to
prevent doubts arising between
you, unless it be ready
merchandise which you give or
take from hand to hand, then it
will not be held against you for
not writing it down. Have
witnesses present whenever you
trade with one another, and let
no harm be done to either scribe
or witness, for if you did cause
them harm, it would be a crime
on your part. Be mindful of God;
He teaches you: He has full
knowledge of everything. 283 If
you are on a journey and do not
find any literate person,
something should be handed over
as security. If one of you entrusts
another with something, let the
trustee restore the pledge to its
owner; and let him fear God, his
Lord. Do not conceal testimony
If someone does conceal it, in
his heart he commits a crime.
God knows what you do.
Last edited by feelgud on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.



feelgud
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#39

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:39 am

Aarif wrote:On the other hand look at another scenario where a woman is allegedly raped by a man. According to Islam if a woman is raped she has to prove her own innocence. This can be done only in two ways:
1) The accused makes confession or
2) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses
It is but-obvious that neither of the above is going to be easy for a woman to gather and if she cannot prove her innocence then she is brutally punished for adultery (including minor girls who do not even understand the meaning of rape) according to Sharia law.
will u please quote from quran,if you are talking abt islam.

Also tell me, how do you distinguish and define:
1.' consensual sex out of wedlock' ,
2.''Rape'' and
3. ''indulge in sex trade ,making xxx moovies''.



Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#40

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:14 pm

feelgud wrote:
Aarif wrote:Now one fine day this guy decides that he is done abusing his wife and he wants to get rid of her. He immediately pronounces Talaq three times and divorces his wife.
this is against the teachings of quran,Arif,show me if it so in quran.
Aarif wrote:Now there are some key points to be considered out here. As per Islam only a man can directly divorce his wife. If the wife wants a divorce she has to approach a Qazi who will be only able to conduct the divorce on certain very specific grounds such as husband is impotent, in prison etc.
If u are married u must know that ur wife's approval comes first and the qazi comes to you only if she accepted ur proposal .[offer and acceptance]
So when it comes to seperation let husband has his say first and let the women get consultation from her seniors if she wants to take initiative for seperation.
Br. Feelgud,
Yes I am married and let me tell you my observations on this. In Islam the father gives away his daughter to a man during the Nikah which means that she is considered his property before marriage and husband’s property after marriage. This itself is unfair to her in first place. Also, a man is the one who is taking away the woman from her father so it is no big deal that she is asked for consent. It does not really impress me at all. What would have impressed me is asking her consent first during a divorce because she is the one who left everything i.e. her family, friends etc. to go and live with a stranger. So logically her consent is more important. And don’t we say “Ladies first”.
Feelgud wrote:Islam considered family as an institution where women are free from any kind of financial obligation. She is expected to support her husband in the bringing up children. They are equal and complementry to each other. This is fundamental abt couples in islam.
Unfortunately most women are not encouraged to gain education unlike men. Hence it is really difficult for them to become independent and contribute financially.
Feelgud wrote:Also tell me, how do you distinguish and define:
1.' consensual sex out of wedlock' ,
2.''Rape'' and
3. ''indulge in sex trade ,making xxx moovies''.
Rape is when a woman is forced for sex against her own free will. The way it works is Zina is prohibited by Quran. So if a man is not related to a woman through marriage and a physical relation takes place between them with or without the consent of woman it is considered zina. The punishment of zina is extremely harsh according to Islam. Now to prove that it happened without the consent of woman the onus is on the woman to bring that proof as per the Sharia law. There are many articles written on it if you want to research. I just typed two keywords and found 10s of links on this. I am pasting the one that appeared on top for you:
http://www.aina.org/news/20081117111817.htm
Feelgud,
You have constantly asked for proof from Holy Quran and completely ignored the literature available in Hadith. I have provided my source from Hadith i.e. teachings of the prophet. Now if you want to discus everything in the light of Quran ONLY you will have to clearly agree that whatever written in Hadith about women is wrong. Unless you make that statement it is a waste of time. I believe that muslims consider both while following Islam. And also remember that if you leave choice and ambiguity for people they will always use benefit of doubt and chose laws that will suit their needs. The problem is some of the clear literature humiliating women can be found in hadith:
“’O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were
you (women).’ They asked, ‘Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He replied, ‘Your curse frequently
and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence
and religion than you…. The women asked, ‘O Allah’s Apostle? What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?’ He said, ‘Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘This is the deficiency in your intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses? The women replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘This is the deficiency in your religion.’” Bukhari vol.1 no.301 p.181. See also Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 4 no.1982,1983 p.432.

Now people will easily link this with an ayah from Quran such as “…And get two witnesses, Out of your own men. And if there are not two men, then a man and two women, Such as ye choose, for witnesses, So that if one of them errs, the other can remind her….”
Also look at this one:
When one is given a woman, servant, or cattle, one should seize its forehead and pray to
Allah. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1918 p.157. See also Muwatta’ Malik 28.22.52



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:29 pm

It is easy for all of us to point out problems. You can type 4 keywords and come up with a lot more websites. The questions is, are you proposing any solution to any of the issues that you have raised within or outside of Islam?



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#42

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:24 pm

mustafanalwalla wrote:You suddenly, out of the blue, brought in the Bohra clergy, when that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the topic at hand
Hi mn,

If you believe that Bohraism has got nothing to do with Islam then you are absolutely right, if you believe that Bohra marriages/divorces are done out of the purview of Islam then again you are right. As long as bohras call themselves Muslims then anything and everything done by them has to be quoted.
mustafanalwalla wrote: Discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, bash the bohras', discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on, discuss whats going on
That ongoing subject is women and its role in marriages/divorces and Iam well within the ambit if you read my post which is:
ghulam muhammed wrote:Take the example of 'Mehr', see the amount which is specified by the bohra clergy, it is mostly 552 or Rs.786. Does this meagre amount in anyway take care of the woman or does it justify the principles of mehr as was percieved by Prophet (s.a.w.) ? Even in divorce matters the bohra woman suffers the most and hardly gets any maintainence for her or her children. The courts are more liberal and understand Islam better then these clergy mafias which is the reason that women nowadays approach the judiciary to address their grieviances.
Hence Iam discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on, discussing whats going on !!!!



Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#43

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:18 pm

Well here are my $0.02..
The modified version of divorce law adopted by India for its Muslim minority is a good start. I believe both husband and wife should have an equal say when it comes to such critical decisions. If the triple talaq right of men is banned it will automatically reduce the percentage of divorce. Woman generally wants to go back to her man after divorce mostly because the man has divorced her against her own wish. She is not prepared for it and maybe does not have other choices. Hence she is willing to go through halala to go back to her original husband. If triple talaq is banned men will no longer be able to misuse their right. Also, the practice of halala should be banned. No other religion stops two people from remarrying after divorce and that has not really increased the divorce rate in those religions.

Also, I believe if a woman is raped she should be given a fair chance to prove her innocence. It would be difficult to generalize but for starters the two pre-conditions of the rapist accepting that he raped the woman or 4 adult male witnesses do not make sense. E.g. if there are four adult male witnesses why would they allow someone to rape a woman? And will a rapist ever admit that he raped a woman? If a woman is raped she needs help, support and protection. In fact it would be a good idea to remove rape from the list of zina for women. Atleast that way an innocent victim will not have to go through additional trauma and humiliation after what she has already gone through.



ghulam muhammed
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#44

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:53 pm

Bro Aarif,

I agree to whatever you have stated but would go a step further and state that this is what is actually specified in Islam and the prevalent practices should be attributed to the various so called sectarian leaders who have distorted Islamic jurisprudence to suit their own agendas. Islam is being blamed due to the present day Mullahs who claim to be the only authority capable of understanding the religion.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:14 pm

If triple talaq is banned men will no longer be able to misuse their right.
Triple Talaq cannot be banned because it is an ayah of the Quran. You can suggest your own interpretation of it.
No other religion stops two people from remarrying after divorce and that has not really increased the divorce rate in those religions.
Anyone who wishes to convert to those other religions is welcome to do so.
In fact it would be a good idea to remove rape from the list of zina
I am not sure if rape is in the list of zina. Which list are you referring to? If you look at the conditions of rape accusation properly, if a woman swears by the Quran, her witness is accepted. 4 witnesses are not required. Your knowledge is outdated.
Also, the practice of halala should be banned.
Pre-arranged halala is already banned. If a woman wants to go through halala to go to her previous husband, then she is already a sinner.



Conscíous
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#46

Unread post by Conscíous » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:42 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:Bro Aarif,
Good to see you on this forum after a long time.
I second that ^^ :D



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#47

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:55 pm

India’s Muslim Personal Law is not Shari’ah law
WHY CODIFICATION OF MUSLIM PERSONAL LAW?

By Asghar Ali Engineer

Islamic Law or what is called Muslim Personal Law comes under attack not only by Hindutva forces but also is criticized by secular forces who stand for gender equality. The Hindutva forces attack it not for their love for gender justice but out of hostility for Islam. But same cannot be said for secular forces. They find existing Muslim personal law as gender biased in favour of man.

Most of us think that the Muslim personal law as applicable in India today is Shari’ah law. However, it is not so. Those Muslims who defend Muslim personal law as Shari’ah law do not understand the difference between Muslim personal law applicable today and Shari’ah law. In fact it was called Anglo-Mohammedan law before independence but was renamed as Muslim personal law after independence.

The British Government, after it seized power from Mughals, established its own courts, which also heard cases pertaining to Muslim marriage, divorce, inheritance etc. In most of these courts there were either British or non-Muslim judges who did not know Shari’ah law or if even Muslim judges heard these cases, most of them were trained in British laws.

What these judges did was to consult Hidayah, written by Mirghayani, a Hanafi scholar, and translated into English by Mr. Hamilton. Often they also consulted some Maulavi before delivering the judgment. Since the cases were heard in these British courts, the procedural law followed was English law and substantive law was based on Hidayah, it came to be known as Anglo-Mohammedan law.

The judgments in these cases delivered by higher courts became precedents for subsequent cases and thus whole corpus of law came into existence based on these judgments which came to be known as Anglo-Mohammedan law and renamed as Muslim personal law as calling it Anglo-Mohammedan law was now rather embarrassing. Thus to call it Shari’ah law would be a misnomer.

Unfortunately what we Muslims or rather Muslim personal law Board is defending is not divine law but Anglo-Mohammedan law known by another name. It is unjust in many respects to women and we try to rationalize these injustices in the name of Islam. In fact Islamic law has to be based on Qur’an and Sunnah and then alone it could be called Shari’ah law and such law would not tend to be unjust.

In all Muslim countries too traditional laws have been amended to bring them closer to Qur’an and sunnah thus giving more rights to women as in the Qur’an. In Turkey too what came to be known as Tanzeemat, was based on different provisions favouring women taken from different schools of Sunni law like Hanafi, Shafi’I, Maliki, Hanbali etc. In India too, the Dissolution of Muslim Marriage of 1939 was based on Maliki School as in Hanfi law a woman has to wait for 90 years if her husband disappears without a trace.

If we codify the present Muslim personal law, many shortcomings in the present law can be removed thus making it much more gender–just than it is at present. In fact in its original spirit Islamic law in matters of marriage, divorce, inheritance etc. was most progressive and empowered women as no other law had done before. However, over period of time this original spirit was lost due to then prevailing social ethos and values. And customary laws acquired greater importance over Qur’anic and Prophet’s (PBUH) pronouncements. Codification can remove these accretions over a period of time and restore original Qur’anic spirit.

We are doing this codification precisely for this reason. And our team is meeting noted ‘Ulama and Muftis, Muslim lawyers and Muslim women activists to evaluate their views and problems encountered by them. Our team has recorded their interviews based on properly designed questionnaire prepared in consultation with some experts on Islamic law. It is important to know that we are interviewing Ulama of various schools i.e. Hanafi, Shafi’I, Ithna Ashari, Ahl-e-Hadis etc. those who have presence in India.

These views will be very much kept in mind while actual codification is done. And it need not be reiterated that this codification will be based on Islamic framework and nothing outside it so that it is acceptable to all. It will not be based on anything outside Islamic laws. However, codification need not follow only one school of law as in some schools there are provisions more favourable to women, than other schools. Thus partly we may follow what was done in Turkey in framing Tanzeemat laws.

It is interesting to note that so far our interviews are very encouraging and many Ulama from Deoband, Lucknow, Aligarh, Azamgarh and other places have fully supported our views about making present Muslim personal law gender-just by bringing it closer to Qur’anic spirit and spirit of Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH). It was indeed very pleasant surprise to us. They also do not agree with Muslim personal board in maintaining status quo and causing problems to women.

Most of the Ulama, with some exceptions of course, agreed with us that polygamy cannot be permitted unregulated as Qur’an makes it strictly conditional, on ability of men to do equal justice to his wives as Qur’an clearly states in 4:3 and 4:129 that if justice is not done, one should marry only one. In fact 4:129 is very very emphatic on justice so much so that it says you cannot do justice even if you want and do not leave first wife suspended or neglected.

Thus in Qur’an priority is not for number but for justice. However, in Muslim personal law in India spirit of justice is totally lost and number has replaced it. Qur’an laid so much emphasis on justice 1400 years ago and today in 21st century when women are much more educated and aware of their rights, justice has receded into background.

It is interesting to note that some Ulama maintained that one need not even obtain consent of first wife as it is ‘privilege’ of men to marry up to four wives and they even denied that verse on polygamy was revealed after the Battle of Uhud in which more than ten per cent of men were killed and widows and orphans had to be taken care of.

Their ignorance was indeed very shocking as they maintained that polygamy is needed to take care of sexual need of man and if polygamy is not allowed prostitution will flourish. If one wife is undergoing menstruation or is pregnant or has delivered man must have other wives to fulfill his sexual need. This is not mentioned in Qur’an even indirectly and yet these few ulama justified polygamy on these un-Qur’anic grounds.

Some prominent Ulama from Deoband, Lucknow and Aligarh, to our pleasant surprise, favoured abolition of triple divorce and they were critical of Muslim Personal law Board on its insistence to retain it. One of them pointed out that if triple divorce in one sitting is justified on grounds of 2nd Caliph Hazrat Umar permitting it, why don’t they take into account that he later punished those who resorted to it.

These Ulama pointed out that divorce should be pronounced on three different occasions as described in the Qur’an so that reconciliation could be brought about in the meanwhile, if possible. Some even maintained that it should be only thrice in lifetime. All of them agreed that as per Qur’anic requirement prior to divorce arbitration should be attempted failing which divorce procedure may be started (4:35). This verse too emphasizes reconciliation rather than divorce.

Thus these are two main issues in Muslim personal law, which are causing injustices to Muslim women. If polygamy and triple divorce are properly regulated Islamic personal law will not only come much closer to the Qur’anic spirit but would become much more progressive than what it is today.

Though incidence of polygamy is not very high among Muslims in India still some men do marry second wife (rarely four wives as in Hindutva propaganda) by either deserting first wife or refusing to divorce her when wife asks for khula’. Thus there is need to regulate polygamy by stipulating strict conditions as required by the Qur’an and no man should be free to take another wife according to his whims. Codification would attempt to lay down such conditions and make it justiciable as per law.

Also, triple divorce should be replaced by talaq al-sunnah or Qur’anic form of divorce both are quite fair to women. Even divorce where inevitable has to be fair to women and Qur’an repeatedly exhorts men to either retain her (in marriage) in goodness or leave her (i.e. divorce her) in kindness (2:229). She cannot be thrown out arbitrarily as it is usually done through triple and oral divorce. Law must prevail and proper procedure must be followed as laid down in Qur’an and sunnah. Triple divorce is not in keeping with either of the two,

Rethinking Muslim personal law as prevalent in India is certainly not to violate divine injunctions as often maintained by some people but to bring in much closer to divine injunctions i.e. to infuse in them really divine spirit. Well it may not always be possible to achieve complete unanimity but certainly we will attempt to create a broad consensus around codification so that Muslims women really enjoy equal status as they are entitled to according to Qur’anic injunctions and also in accordance to modern laws.



Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#48

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:12 pm

anajmi wrote:
If triple talaq is banned men will no longer be able to misuse their right.
Triple Talaq cannot be banned because it is an ayah of the Quran. You can suggest your own interpretation of it.
Read my post again. I have clearly given the example of Indian courts which have a procedure in place where a man and woman are given equal rights when it comes to divorce. And only when they both reach a common consensus a man is allowed to pronounce talaq three times and end the marriage as per the Islamic rule. The Indian supreme court has already modified the talaq procedure for Muslims to prevent exploitation of Muslim women. Read this article again:
http://www.rghr.net/mainfile.php/0420/270/
No other religion stops two people from remarrying after divorce and that has not really increased the divorce rate in those religions.
Anyone who wishes to convert to those other religions is welcome to do so.
Aren't you the foremost one to oppose the abdes on this forum whenever they tell the reformists to leave Dawoodi Bohra faith if they have a problem with it? Consider me a reformist Muslim in this case.
In fact it would be a good idea to remove rape from the list of zina
I am not sure if rape is in the list of zina. Which list are you referring to? If you look at the conditions of rape accusation properly, if a woman swears by the Quran, her witness is accepted. 4 witnesses are not required. Your knowledge is outdated.
Outdated!! Well this article does not look that outdated to me: Read this article again.
http://www.aina.org/news/20081117111817.htm
Also, the practice of halala should be banned.
Pre-arranged halala is already banned. If a woman wants to go through halala to go to her previous husband, then she is already a sinner.
I am talking about the halala where a woman has to consummate marriage by sleeping with another man if she wants to re-unite with her ex-husband. Why does she need to do that? Why we cannot ban it? What purpose does is it serve except forcing a woman to sleep with another man against her will?
You have failed to address any of the issues that I have raised in my posts. Unfortunately you are convinced that exploitation of women is justified because Islamic laws says so which you keep repeating in every post. Nobody in this world can deny the fact that even today Muslim women are exploited in the name of religion. Fortunately the rest of the world does not follow such ridiculous laws. Otherwise this world would have become a living hell for women. I am done with whatever I had to say. You can have the last word if you want…



anajmi
Posts: 13399
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:27 pm

Read my post again. I have clearly given the example of Indian courts which have a procedure in place where a man and woman are given equal rights when it comes to divorce. And only when they both reach a common consensus a man is allowed to pronounce talaq three times and end the marriage as per the Islamic rule.
So then why do you want to ban triple talaq? I said bring your own interpretation of triple talaq. Looks like the Indian courts beat you to it.
Aren't you the foremost one to oppose the abdes on this forum whenever they tell the reformists to leave Dawoodi Bohra faith if they have a problem with it? Consider me a reformist Muslim in this case.
I have also being the foremost in asking the Dawoodi Bohra to abandon Dai-ism and come back into the fold of Islam as it was taught by the prophet (saw). I have been the foremost in opposing the reformists on this board as well. You should know better. Besides, I am no longer a part of the Bohra faith and do not want to go back even if asked. I am amongst those who actually follow what they preach.
Why we cannot ban it?
Because it is a part of the Quran. You can only ban in if you bring new revelation from Allah. And that is something that won't be happening anytime soon.
Fortunately the rest of the world does not follow such ridiculous laws.
And yet you want to be stuck with muslims. Go join the rest of the world.



Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#50

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:33 pm

welcome back aarif. where have u been for so long??



Fatwa Banker
Posts: 697
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#51

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:13 pm

anajmi wrote:
And yet you want to be stuck with muslims. Go join the rest of the world.
Like you did ?
NOTE: Anajmi writes this post from the comfort of the United States where he emigrated with his family. The hypocrite has the audacity of preaching to Aarif that "Triple Talaq cannot be banned because it is an ayah of the Quran", while he sneaks of out of the land where his Jahili laws are enforced and adopts a country that fights to eradicate them !



anajmi
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:58 pm

adopts a country that fights to eradicate them !
Really? I had no idea. I guess that is why the situation in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq is improving day by day and the people over there love this country right? And the biggest problem in those countries is, guess what? Triple Talaq!!! :wink:

I was hoping you were taking care of your loose muscles while you were gone but apparently not.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:11 am

If a woman marries a man with the intent of getting divorced from him so that she can fulfill the Islamic law simply to go back to her previous husband is what I refer to as a pre-arranged halala which is not allowed. A divorced woman could get married to another man under normal circumstances and if she is unlucky enough to get divorced a second time, then she can go back and marry the first husband. The process of the first husband arranging a temporary husband for his wife to sleep with so that he can get her back, doesn't make him a good husband who wants his wife back. It simply makes him a pimp.

And you should be the last person worrying about poking holes in my arguments.



sallu_baba
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#54

Unread post by sallu_baba » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:27 am

Bro MN,
This seems like a really absurd question. Would you really think that a man who has stated his need to divorce his wife three times (as to my best knowledge) love his wife all that much in the first place? Do you really think, as far as your own opinion goes, that such a man who has previously ended a marriage would want to go through this planned halala just because he realised his love a little late?



anajmi
Posts: 13399
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:10 am

why would this be a bad thing?
Read the examples provided on this thread earlier and see how this halala arrangement worked out for the women loved so much by their husbands, then ask this question.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#56

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:16 pm

Now, here is the divorce process that I am in agreement with and if someone can show that it is against the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw), I am ready to consider it.

When a man decides to divorce his wife on a particular day, he could say divorce three times of thirty times, over the phone, via email via text message etc, it will be considered the first divorce. The wife will have to go into iddah for the prescribed period during which time the husband and the wife have an opportunity to go back to each other without going through halala. During the iddah period, either one of them can refuse to get back together and complete the divorce. Mehar in Islam should be considered a pre-nuptial agreement and women shouldn't take it lightly as they normally do. I paid Rs 250 as Mehar to my wife which is ridiculous. It is upto the woman to make sure she takes care of herself in case she is divorced. If the man decides to finalize the divorce, he has to pay the mehar. If the woman decides she doesn't want to go back, she has to go to court and prove her case, give her reasons. She gets no mehar in this case, except what she has already received. She can keep that and the husband doesn't have the right to take it back from her. For eg. if the husband bought the house in her name, then she gets the house if she wants it.

If they decide to get together during the iddah period, then they have used up one of their chances. If the same thing happens again, then they have another chance to get together before the completion of the iddah period. Once this happens a third time, then it is final. They cannot get back together until the woman gets to taste different meat, so to say!!



sallu_baba
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#57

Unread post by sallu_baba » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:17 pm

This is my understanding of it too Br anajmi



ghulam muhammed
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#58

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:25 pm

A Very Good Commentary on the existing systems and laws of divorce as practised in India :-

Islamic law of divorce

The law of divorce is one of the most misunderstood and debated canons of Islam. And its back in focus thanks to the recent judgement of a Delhi court which upheld the validity of divorce given by a Shia Muslim to his wife through his agent to pronounce the word 'talaq' in Arabic as he himself was not conversant with the language. The Shia law insists that divorce must be pronounced in Arabic either by the husband or his agent (vakil) in the presence of two male witnesses. On the contrary, the Sunni law does not make pronouncement in Arabic compulsory while it surprisingly upholds the legality of talaq uttered in the absence of witnesses despite the fact that the Quran in surah Talaq clearly mandates the presence of two witnesses at the time of divorce. But then the Sunni law also allows instant triple talaq which is not allowed under the Shia law. Given these differences, it becomes imperative to know as to what the Quran and the last Prophet had to say on this issue which has become so contentious today.

http://twocircles.net/2011may11/islamic ... vorce.html



ghulam muhammed
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Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#59

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:37 pm

Why hedonistic polygyny is against Islam
A. Faizur Rahman

Polygyny, which finds mention just once (4:3) in the Quran, is one of the most misunderstood concepts of Islamic law. It has been abused over the centuries by Muslim men without appreciating the spirit behind its exceptional sanction, which is clearly contextualised in the historical conditions of the time when a large number of women were widowed and children orphaned as Muslims suffered heavy casualties in defending the nascent Islamic community in Medina. Even a simple reading of verses 4: 2, 3 and 127 will show that it was under such circumstances that the Quran allowed conditional polygyny, mainly to protect orphans and their mothers from an exploitative society.

Verse 4:2 warns caretakers against devouring the assets of orphans either by merging them with their own, or substituting their “worthless properties for the good ones” of the orphans. And, if the caretakers “fear that they may not be able to do justice” to the interests of the orphans in isolation, the next verse allows them to marry their widowed mothers — on the condition that the new family would be dealt justly on a par with the existing one. For those who are not up to it, the instruction of Quran was: “Then [marry] only one.”

The sanctity of taking care of widows and their children was further emphasised in 4:127; “And remember what has been rehearsed unto you in the Book [in 4:2 and 3] concerning the orphans of women to whom you give not what is prescribed, and yet whom you desire to marry...” It is clear from these arguments that verse 4:3 is not a hedonistic licence to marry several women.

This can be better understood by analysing the concept of marriage in the Quran. Not enough research has been done on the statements of the Quran which repeatedly describe man and woman as “spousal mates” created to find “quiet of mind” (7:189) and “to dwell in tranquility” (30:21) in the companionship of each other. Verse 7:189, which traces the origin of man to a single cell (nafsan waahida), talks of the wife in the singular as zaujaha, thereby emphasising monogamy. Thus, marriage according to the Quran is the emotional bonding of two minds. This cannot be achieved simultaneously with more than one woman.

Chennai-based psychiatrist Dr. Vijay Nagaswami, in his book The 24 x 7 Marriage, echoes similar sentiments when he defines the purpose of marriage as “emotional fulfilment” of the needs of two people, which is not possible if a third person is involved.

It is sad that Muslim women have allowed themselves to be subliminally brainwashed into becoming objects of sexual gratification for men, which has resulted in scores of them suffering in silence. It is time they broke free from the shackles that hold them hostage to the whims of a few patriarchal ulema who have stalled the progress of the Muslim community through their misinterpretation of Islam. Let them take the first step towards achieving this by questioning all medieval readings of Islam that seek to exploit their femininity.



Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Halala : Another Name For Rape Of Muslim Women.

#60

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:23 pm

anajmi wrote: So then why do you want to ban triple talaq? I said bring your own interpretation of triple talaq. Looks like the Indian courts beat you to it.
There is a disconnect here. What I want to ban is the right given to muslim men to divorce their wives at their own free will by uttering talaq three times. The Indian Supreme Court has banned that practice on human grounds. According to the new law the court will listen to both the husband and wife and ONLY if it approves the divorce the man can pronounce talaq three times and complete the divorce. The Indian courts have eliminated the problem or the vito power of muslim men given to them by Sharia law to divorce their wives at will by uttering talaq three times.
I have also being the foremost in asking the Dawoodi Bohra to abandon Dai-ism and come back into the fold of Islam as it was taught by the prophet (saw). I have been the foremost in opposing the reformists on this board as well. You should know better. Besides, I am no longer a part of the Bohra faith and do not want to go back even if asked.
And yet you want to be stuck with muslims. Go join the rest of the world.
I can ask you the same question. What are you doing on this forum since you are neither a reformist nor a dawoodi bohra?
To answer your question people do not change religions the way they change clothes. And there is nothing wrong in accepting the flows and correcting them rather than allowing injustice and human rights abuse in the name of religion. Many times I see on this forum people talking about banning FGM. But again FGM is part of prophet’s preachings and it is followed in many Islamic countries including India and Pakistan. If it is part of prophet’s preachings why people want to ban it? Any preaching that violates basic human rights should be banned. And to do that you do not need to change your religion.
Bro AZ thanks for the welcome. Appreciate it.