Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

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aliabbas_aa
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#61

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:00 am

Only a hypocrite would question the prophet pbuh,
We dont question what a prophet pbuh does , we follow him unconditionally

but for the hypocrites here is the answer:

The prophet pbuh does what ALLAH swt wants him to do he virtually is sinless any omissions on the part of prophet pbuh is consoled by a revelation from ALLAH swt hence the prophet pbuh always does the right thing. Unlike all other humans who dont receive revelations and hence are liable to err.

someone
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#62

Unread post by someone » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:16 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:Al-Bukhârî reports that ‘Umar – Allâh be pleased with him – came to the Black Stone (performing tawâf, circumambulation), kissed it, and said, “I know that you are a stone, you do not cause benefit or harm; and if it were not that I had seen Allâh’s Messenger – peace and blessings of Allâh be upon him – kiss you, I would never have kissed you.”

Al-Bukhârî, Al-Sahîh, Chapter on what has been said about the Black Stone.

Points to note

· The illustrious Companion and Caliph ‘Umar reminded us in this narration of the pure belief that benefit and harm are not caused by created objects and thus should not be sought from them. Only Allâh has control over these things.

· We are reminded that acts of worship are taken from Allâh’s Messenger, and a person is not supposed to make up his own way of worship, he must follow the manner of worship that the Prophet taught and practiced.

· We also learn that once an action is confirmed in the Sunnah, the believer submits and complies and practices it because it is confirmed that Allâh’s Messenger did it, even if we don’t know the wisdom behind it.

· This narration is also an example of how a responsible person tries to clarify and do away with any misunderstandings that people may have about matters of faith. The people had recently left their unbelief and polytheism, so ‘Umar wanted to make it clear that kissing the Black Stone is by no means done as an act of devotion to it, as people used to do with their stone idols.

Adapted from Ibn Hajr, Fath Al-Bârî, and other hadîth commentaries.

Source: http://www.sayingsofthesalaf.net/index. ... ack-stone/
What follows is not posted for disrespecting anyone, but to show how your logic fails. I am only going to go off of what you have quoted, assuming that you hold the narration, the author and the original speaker as truth and in high esteem.

You quoted "...kissed it, and said, “I know that you are a stone, you do not cause benefit or harm; and if it were not that I had seen Allâh’s Messenger – peace and blessings of Allâh be upon him – kiss you, I would never have kissed you.”"

According to your reasoning you should be shouting "Shirk, Shirk" based on the above narration that you believe in and hold dear. Note that the quote is not "I know this is a stone, it does not cause benefit or harm; and if it were not that I had seen Allah's Messenger - peace and blessings of Allah be upon him - kiss it, I would never have kissed it." This would convey the same message, but would mean that the point was being made for someone else present there. The original quote is as if he were speaking to the stone!! In numerous other posts, you jump on fellow muslims and call them mushrik and accuse them of shirk for talking to inanimate objects - I am not saying that is what they do or that is their intent or whatever the case is, and I am not arguing on their acts' validity or legality. I am just pointing out that according to your previous and numerous accusations, the above quote that you believe in, hold dear and posted to argue your point can, by using your own rationale, be used to accuse the speaker of shirk!!

humble_servant_us
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#63

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:49 am

Hz Umar talking directly to a stone , which is not dead but non-living. By AA's logic this could also be called shirk.

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#64

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:51 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:
sixfeetunder wrote: Where is the grave of Bibi Hajar? Please never perform Hajj or Umrah, you may just commit Shirk!
Why you just want to transgress and deny that too with shamefully silly arguments?
salat facing graves means facing in the vicinity of the graves!

And can you furnish proof from authentic sunnah about the whereabouts of haz Hajr's graves?
Its an absolutely coherent argument. Let the readers decide whether it is shamefully silly or not. Your saying so doesn't make a difference.

As for proof from authentic sunnah, I am sure you can find it yourself. If you ask me to furnish proofs for such basic things, it brings down the level of debate to high-school.

So, please do not pray in the vicinity of the Kaa'ba, you might commit shirk, as per your argument. In fact, we are all mushriks in Islam! If you do sujood near Hijr Ismail/hateem, you should be called a Mushrik because within Hijr Ismael, there are a number of Prophet buried. So, if you're doing sujood behind Hijr Ismael and someone doesn't know your neeyah (intention), they could come and accuse you of being a Mushrik! They will say that you are worshiping the Prophets who are buried there! You will say that you are not worshiping them but worshiping Allah!

Abu Bakr and Umar are buried next to the Prophet in his mosque! When you go for Umrah/Hajj and pray in Masjid-e-nabawi, you have to face these graves because the Qibla goes directly through them. So, you will be committing shirk as well! Why do you worship Abu Bakr and Umar, I ask! This is not alllowed in Islam! You will say: No, no, I am not worshiping them. I am worshiping Allah only! I will say: But you're facing their graves!

I hope you get the point! Don't judge anyone's intention! Allah alone knows the intention.

If you are prostrating near the Kaaba, I can call you a Mushrik because you're worshiping a big black stone! You will say, no I'm not worshiping it. I am worshiping Allah alone!!

So, please do not judge and stop calling other Mushriks and Kafirs.

aliabbas_aa
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#65

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:02 am

The following lines i repeat which are enough to answer you people's shamefully silly replies:
We are reminded that acts of worship are taken from Allâh’s Messenger, and a person is not supposed to make up his own way of worship, he must follow the manner of worship that the Prophet taught and practiced.

So did prophet pbuh make alams \ panjas or any other objects to kiss it ? NO
regarding we flying in aeroplanes and the prophet pbuh didnt then flying in aeroplane is not a deeni thing rather a technological innovation. But u people have corrupted Islam by introducing new things in the garb of deen by associating deeni activities say like durood etc with innovated activities like alam kissing etc.

And yes those who invoke others with ALLAH swt for help are Mushriks and it does not apply to an entire sect but only the people who do it.
e.g There are many shias i know who consider ya ali madad to be shirk and hence dont utter this satanic phrase.

Muslim First
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#66

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:45 am

Abu Bakr and Umar are buried next to the Prophet in his mosque! When you go for Umrah/Hajj and pray in Masjid-e-nabawi, you have to face these graves because the Qibla goes directly through them.
Majority of prayer space is not behind chamber.
Did you notice partition before chamber and people praying behind it?
Would it be OK for you to pray facing chamber if 2 of them were not buried in chamber?
Have heard word "SUTRA"?

SUTRA
http://ahadith.co.uk/searchresults.php?q=Sutra

Grave worshippers will find many excuses to justify his actions. Shias are grave worshippers period.

profastian
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#67

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:57 am

aliabbas_aa wrote: There are many shias i know who consider ya ali madad to be shirk and hence dont utter this satanic phrase.
Come one aliabbas_aa be a person. Do you really this s--t

aliabbas_aa
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#68

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:59 am

?

aliabbas_aa
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#69

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:09 am

Ya i am right in this:
"And who is more astray than one who calls (invokes) besides Allah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection; and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them? And when mankind are gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), they (false deities) will become enemies for them and will deny their worshipping."

(46: 5,6)

Allah, the Most Exalted said:



"Is not He Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls Him; and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth, generations after generations? Is there any god with Allah? Little is that you remember!"

(27:62)

At- Tabarani narrates with his Isnad (chain of the narrators):



During the days of the Prophet (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) there was a hypocrite who used to harm the believers, some of them (the believers) said, "Come (support) with us while we appeal to Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) for assistance against this hypocrite." The Prophet (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) replied, "Verily, no one should seek to me for assistance. Indeed, it is Allah Who is to be sought for assistance and help."

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#70

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:19 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:The following lines i repeat which are enough to answer you people's shamefully silly replies:
We are reminded that acts of worship are taken from Allâh’s Messenger, and a person is not supposed to make up his own way of worship, he must follow the manner of worship that the Prophet taught and practiced.

So did prophet pbuh make alams \ panjas or any other objects to kiss it ? NO
regarding we flying in aeroplanes and the prophet pbuh didnt then flying in aeroplane is not a deeni thing rather a technological innovation. But u people have corrupted Islam by introducing new things in the garb of deen by associating deeni activities say like durood etc with innovated activities like alam kissing etc.

And yes those who invoke others with ALLAH swt for help are Mushriks and it does not apply to an entire sect but only the people who do it.
e.g There are many shias i know who consider ya ali madad to be shirk and hence dont utter this satanic phrase.
Shii'tes too take all acts of worship from the Prophet himself. Kissing an 'alam' is a sign of showing respect for what it stands. Just like you kiss the leather cover of the Qur'an to show respect to the word of Allah! It is not a compulsory act of worship! If I don't kiss an alam, it doesn't make me a lesser Shia! These symbols are cultural manifestations of faith.

And Durood is an innovation according to you? We should not ask for Allah's blessings on the man who taught us our religion?

As for invoking others with Allah, I have already quoted a fatwa of Ayatollah Seestani on another thread. It reads as:

If the help of Hadhrat Ali (A.S.) or any of the other ma'sumeen is sought as an intercessor and a 'waseelah' envisaged by the Holy Qur'an in Ayah 35 of Suratul Maidah then not only there can be no objection but it would be the right and proper thing to do. But if help is sought in the belief that the person whose help sought shares with Allah the right to create, sustain and protect then the call for help might amount to 'shirk'.
The Ayah referred to above reads as follows:

"O you who believe ! Be mindful of your Duty to Allah, and seek a way to approach him ((wab tagoo ilayhi waseelah).................."

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/a ... 00322.html

So, If I do not think that Hadhrat Ali shares with Allah, the right to create, sustain or protect, you have no right to call me a mushrik. Let us see what the Prophet (s.a.w) says about a Muslim who calls another Muslim Kafir:

"Whenever a man accuses another of being a kafir or wrong-doer, this accusation will rebound on him if the one accused is not in reality a kafir or wrong-doer." (Bukhari)

So, as per this hadith, either you are a Kafir or the victim of your accusation is a kafir. All the best!

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#71

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:43 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:Ya i am right in this:
"And who is more astray than one who calls (invokes) besides Allah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection; and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them? And when mankind are gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), they (false deities) will become enemies for them and will deny their worshipping."(46: 5,6)
Why do you Wahhabies always quote verses revealed for the non-believers to attack Muslims? This trend was started by your godfather Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi and you blindly follow this without realizing what you are quoting!

During the days of the Prophet (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) there was a hypocrite who used to harm the believers, some of them (the believers) said, "Come (support) with us while we appeal to Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) for assistance against this hypocrite." The Prophet (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) replied, "Verily, no one should seek to me for assistance. Indeed, it is Allah Who is to be sought for assistance and help."
There are many verses from The Holy Qur'an which nullify your hadith. Let me quote just two!

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

[Shakir 27:38-40] He said: O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission?

One audacious among the jinn said: I will bring it to you before you rise up from your place; and most surely I am strong (and) trusty for it.

One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.


In 4:64, Allah wants the unjust to come to the Prophet and the Prophet to ask forgiveness for them.

In 27:38, Prophet Suleman (a.s) asks his chiefs to bring him the throne of Bilkis. He does not ask Allah directly. The one who finally brings it for him has only partial knowledge of the book.

Now clearly a Prophet (as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman (as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

Now, if a Prophet (as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali (a.s) who declared that he had complete knowledge of the Book?

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#72

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Let us not confuse this seeking of help with that seeking of help. There is a clear difference between the two and one seeking of help is shirk and the other one is not. If that had not been the case, Allah would not have made us recite this ayah of Surah Fateha in every rakat of every salah -

1:5 Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.

There is no contradiction or confusion between the two. When I go to the dealer and tell him that I need a car, it is not shirk. When I say Ya Allah, give me a car, that is not shirk. When I say Ya Ali, give me a car, that is shirk. When I say, Ya Ali, ask Allah to give me a car, then I am wasting my dua because Allah says that those whom you invoke, cannot respond to your call even if they can hear you. Look at the ayah posted below.

The examples you gave are invalid. One cannot approach the prophet (saw) today and seek his help. Albeit you can seek the help of those who are better in taqwa than you and you can go and ask them to pray for your sake. That is not shirk. I ask my mother to pray for me and my children all the time. We should try to understand the difference between these otherwise we might end up committing shirk as a lot of us have.

35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you. And [withal,] on the Day of Resurrection they will utterly disown your having associated them with God. And none can make thee understand [the truth] like the One who is all-aware.

Allah is talking about someone whom you invoke. Who is this? Is it the dealer, or Ali? When you understand the difference between the two, you will stop committing shirk.

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#73

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Seeking the help of a human (or a jinn) beyond the capability of that human (or jinn) would tantamount to shirk. For eg. when the bohras say Mola Shifa, Mola Shifa, they are committing shirk because the Mola is incapable of providing shifa. He is neither a Doctor, nor is he God. However, if I go to a doctor with my ailment and say doctor shifa, doctor shifa, I am not committing shirk, because providing shifa is within the limited capability of a doctor. And dead humans (or jinn) are even less capable.

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#74

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:09 pm

anajmi wrote:Let us not confuse this seeking of help with that seeking of help. There is a clear difference between the two and one seeking of help is shirk and the other one is not. If that had not been the case, Allah would not have made us recite this ayah of Surah Fateha in every rakat of every salah -

1:5 Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.
[Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
[Yusufali 1:5] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.


I am telling you that I worship Allah alone and I ask for his help only. As you very well know, intercession is allowed as per Qur'an in many places. So, if I am asking Allah's help in the name of Ali (a.s), who is one of Allah's favorite servants and alive as per the Qur'an again, there should be no problem. I do not think that Hadhrat Ali has any power independent to the power of Allah. All power ultimately belongs to Allah alone. Why then, do you call me mushrik? I call you a brother in faith atlhough I do not agree with your views.
There is no contradiction or confusion between the two. When I go to the dealer and tell him that I need a car, it is not shirk. When I say Ya Allah, give me a car, that is not shirk. When I say Ya Ali, give me a car, that is shirk. When I say, Ya Ali, ask Allah to give me a car, then I am wasting my dua because Allah says that those whom you invoke, cannot respond to your call even if they can hear you. Look at the ayah posted below.
You are right. Those whom we invoke, may or may not hear our call and they will not respond. But Allah can respond. This is tawassul, my friend. We direct our prayers to Allah through an intermediary and expect Allah's help. We can ask him directly also. There is no problem in either as long as our intention is clear.
The examples you gave are invalid. One cannot approach the prophet (saw) today and seek his help. Albeit you can seek the help of those who are better in taqwa than you and you can go and ask them to pray for your sake. That is not shirk. I ask my mother to pray for me and my children all the time. We should try to understand the difference between these otherwise we might end up committing shirk as a lot of us have.
The Prophet is alive. He is dead according to your school of thought only. So shall we agree to disagree?
35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you. And [withal,] on the Day of Resurrection they will utterly disown your having associated them with God. And none can make thee understand [the truth] like the One who is all-aware.

Allah is talking about someone whom you invoke. Who is this? Is it the dealer, or Ali? When you understand the difference between the two, you will stop committing shirk.
Allah is talking about the gods of kuffar. This ayah is for the non-believers and not Muslims. Anyway, I have already answered this above. Also, on the Day of Resurrection they will utterly disown your having associated them with God. is talking about those who ASSOCIATE/MAKE PARTNERS with God. I have not made Ali (a.s) a partner or associate with God. I do not consider Ali (as) to have independent powers. Hence, I refute your charges of shirk and urge you to pay attention to the hadith of Prophet regarding one who calls another Muslim as kafir. Wasalaam.

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#75

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:53 pm

The Prophet is alive. He is dead according to your school of thought only. So shall we agree to disagree?
Again, you are mixing two things together. The prophet (saw) is dead like all beings will die someday and he is alive just like others who might be alive after their deaths. Only recently you were talking about the dead being able to hear. So I said that Hazrat Ali is not dead, and then you corrected me that he is dead like the normal dead but alive as per the Quranic ayah of those who DIE in the path of Allah. So the prophet (saw) is dead as per that "dead".
As you very well know, intercession is allowed as per Qur'an in many places.
Actaully, intercession is not allowed anywhere in the Quran. Allah says that no intercession will be allowed except with his permission. So to say that intercession is allowed is stretching it, not a bit, but quite a lot. How do you know that Hazrat Ali has Allah's permission to intercede? You do not. You are assuming that Hazrat Ali has Allah's permission to intercede which leads to shirk. You should not be making such assumptions. Second, even if you consider someone will be allowed to intercede, who guaranteed the acceptance of their intercession?
So, if I am asking Allah's help in the name of Ali (a.s),
Actually, you are not. When you say Ya Ali Madad, you are directly asking Hazrat Ali. If you were to ask for Allah's help in the name of Ali, you would say, Ya Allah Madad fil ismi Ali.
You are right. Those whom we invoke, may or may not hear our call and they will not respond. But Allah can respond. This is tawassul, my friend.
Well, if that is tawassul, then what does Allah say about it? Let us post the same ayah again.

35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you. And [withal,] on the Day of Resurrection they will utterly disown your having associated them with God. And none can make thee understand [the truth] like the One who is all-aware.

Well, doesn't look too good for you.
Allah is talking about the gods of kuffar. This ayah is for the non-believers and not Muslims.
You should read up on the beliefs of the pagans of Arabia. Did you know that they had names like Abdullah? Why is that? They believed in Allah and believed in Laat, Manaat and Uzza to be daughters of Allah. Consider these verses of the Quran.

26:213 Hence, [O man,] do not invoke any other deity side by side with God, lest thou find thyself among those who are made to suffer [on Judgment Day].

28:88 and never call upon any other deity side by side with God. There is no deity save Him. Everything is bound to perish, save His [eternal] self. With Him rests all judgment; and unto Him shall you all be brought back. -

72:18 And [know] that all worship is due to God [alone]: hence, do not invoke anyone side by side with God!

Who would invoke a deity side by side with Allah? It has to be someone who believes in Allah right?
I have not made Ali (a.s) a partner or associate with God.
The fact that you invoke him automatically means that you have made him a partner with Allah. Now let us just look at the first part of the ayah and your response to it.

35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you.
Those whom we invoke, may or may not hear our call and they will not respond. But Allah can respond.
Even though Allah is telling you, that they cannot respond, you insist on invoking them? Even though you are outright disobeying Allah, Allah will still respond to you? Why? Is it because you have made an idol of someone who is beloved to Allah?

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#76

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:13 pm

One other thing, Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to all mankind. So if we were to assume that there will be intercession on the day of judgement, we can pretty much guarantee that the prophet (saw) will be the one to intercede on our behalf. Tradition tells us that he will ask for forgiveness for all of his ummah. Assuming that Allah accepts his intercession, we won't need intercession from anyone else. If his intercession is not accepted, then the chances that someone else's intercession will be accepted are pretty much zero. And yet, have you ever said Ya Mohammad Madad? What does that tell you about your relationship with Hazrat Ali?

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#77

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:56 pm

Again, you are mixing two things together. The prophet (saw) is dead like all beings will die someday and he is alive just like others who might be alive after their deaths. Only recently you were talking about the dead being able to hear. So I said that Hazrat Ali is not dead, and then you corrected me that he is dead like the normal dead but alive as per the Quranic ayah of those who DIE in the path of Allah. So the prophet (saw) is dead as per that "dead".
Yes. That is a biological death - the separation of soul from body - which every soul shall taste. As for 'those who die in the path of Allah' are alive but we perceive it not, Allah says that they are in his presence and receive sustenance from him. Ever pondered why they receive sustenance and what the sustenance is?
Actaully, intercession is not allowed anywhere in the Quran. Allah says that no intercession will be allowed except with his permission. So to say that intercession is allowed is stretching it, not a bit, but quite a lot. How do you know that Hazrat Ali has Allah's permission to intercede? You do not. You are assuming that Hazrat Ali has Allah's permission to intercede which leads to shirk. You should not be making such assumptions. Second, even if you consider someone will be allowed to intercede, who guaranteed the acceptance of their intercession?
Surah 19 Verse 87 - They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord.

The one had made a covenant with Allah(swt) can intercede.

Surah 20 verse 108 - On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.

The one who Allah (swt) accepts and is pleased with his word can intercede.

Surah 21 Verse 28 - He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

- Whom Allah approves and Who when he hears Allah's name, 'Trembles in fear'.

Surah 43 Verse 86 - And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.

- According to this verse he who bears witness to the truth has the power of intercession.

Apart from these, there are many interpretations of verses and hadith literature available to prove that the Imams of Ahlul Bayt have the power of intercession. But you will reject them calling them Shia fairytales and other disparaging names. So, I don't want to post them here and waste my time and energy.
Actually, you are not. When you say Ya Ali Madad, you are directly asking Hazrat Ali. If you were to ask for Allah's help in the name of Ali, you would say, Ya Allah Madad fil ismi Ali.
That is your thinking. In tawassul, I can ask Allah through his favourite servants' name OR can ask his favourite servants (who are alive in the presence of Allah and receive sustenance from him) to supplicate in my favor to Allah. I have posted the fatwa of Ayt. Seestani. As long as I do not think Maula Ali (a.s) has powers independent of the powers of Allah, I am not committing Shirk.
You are right. Those whom we invoke, may or may not hear our call and they will not respond. But Allah can respond. This is tawassul, my friend.

Well, if that is tawassul, then what does Allah say about it? Let us post the same ayah again.

35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you. And [withal,] on the Day of Resurrection they will utterly disown your having associated them with God. And none can make thee understand [the truth] like the One who is all-aware.

Well, doesn't look too good for you.
I also wrote that this ayat was revealed for pagans and asked you why you quote it for Muslims? This was never the case before Ibn Wahhab Najdi. Would you quote verses which are revealed for Muslims and apply it to pagans? Will you say that pagans need to fast and pay zakat?
You should read up on the beliefs of the pagans of Arabia. Did you know that they had names like Abdullah? Why is that? They believed in Allah and believed in Laat, Manaat and Uzza to be daughters of Allah. Consider these verses of the Quran.

26:213 Hence, [O man,] do not invoke any other deity side by side with God, lest thou find thyself among those who are made to suffer [on Judgment Day].

28:88 and never call upon any other deity side by side with God. There is no deity save Him. Everything is bound to perish, save His [eternal] self. With Him rests all judgment; and unto Him shall you all be brought back. -

72:18 And [know] that all worship is due to God [alone]: hence, do not invoke anyone side by side with God!

Who would invoke a deity side by side with Allah? It has to be someone who believes in Allah right?
The pagans of Arabia also believed in the formless omnipotent god and called it Allah. But they associated him with other idols. All these verses you have quoted are for non-believers. Why are you applying them to Muslims. To associate or make partners with Allah means that one believes that these demi-gods/entities have independent powers. Muslims do not believe so and hence your charges are nullified.
The fact that you invoke him automatically means that you have made him a partner with Allah. Now let us just look at the first part of the ayah and your response to it.

35:14 If you invoke them, they do not hear your call; and even if they could hear, they would not [be able to] respond to you.

Those whom we invoke, may or may not hear our call and they will not respond. But Allah can respond.

Even though Allah is telling you, that they cannot respond, you insist on invoking them? Even though you are outright disobeying Allah, Allah will still respond to you? Why? Is it because you have made an idol of someone who is beloved to Allah?
That is your wishful thinking and erroneous Wahhabi interpretation. Invoking a person does not make him a partner with God. Just like you when you ask someone to help you, you do not think that the person is a partner with God. You just ask the person, knowing that the person does not have powers of his own accord. All power belongs to Allah alone.

Also, I have checked the verse again. These verses cannot be applied to Muslims. These talk about demi-gods of pagans and not about the ones who are slain in Allah's way and are alive in Allah's presence and receive sustenance from him.

sixfeetunder
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#78

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:10 pm

anajmi wrote:One other thing, Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to all mankind. So if we were to assume that there will be intercession on the day of judgement, we can pretty much guarantee that the prophet (saw) will be the one to intercede on our behalf. Tradition tells us that he will ask for forgiveness for all of his ummah. Assuming that Allah accepts his intercession, we won't need intercession from anyone else. If his intercession is not accepted, then the chances that someone else's intercession will be accepted are pretty much zero. And yet, have you ever said Ya Mohammad Madad? What does that tell you about your relationship with Hazrat Ali?
Intercession is accepted from people who fulfill certain criteria. I have quoted some verses earlier. Intercession is not reserved for Prophets alone. As for 'Ya Muhammad madad', I may have not uttered this particular phrase but 'Ya RasulAllah' is used commonly by Shias and Sunnis, in prayers for intercession. In my prayers to Allah, I do use the wasila of Prophet. I also use the wasila of Ahlul Bayt in a similar way. It is just that the phrase 'Ya Ali madad' has become more common and popular among the Shii'tes and Sufis. Shias and Sufis love Ali (a.s) because the Prophet (s.a.w) loved him. Wasalaam.

I have put my views on the table. I would not like to argue and play ringa-ringa roses and be insulted and called mushrik again and again. Let us pray to Allah that his wrath may descend upon the one who is actually the kafir, as per Prophet's hadith about the one who calls another Muslim as kafir. Thanks.

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#79

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:38 pm

These verses cannot be applied to Muslims.
So you are saying that as long as it is a muslim who is associating a partners with Allah it is ok. Only non-muslims are not allowed to associate partners with Allah. Who is interpreting the Quran and hadith for you?
Intercession is not reserved for Prophets alone.
I never said intercession is reserved for prophets alone. I am saying no one is qualified for intercession. Who is and who is not is with Allah. You can quote all the hadith you want, Allah makes it clear in the Quran. Consider this ayah that you quote as an example.
Surah 43 Verse 86 - And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.
Read this ayah very carefully. Allah says - And those unto whom they cry instead of him possess no power of intercession!!! Why is Allah saying "instead of Him"?? Doesn't he know that you are crying only for intercession and not instead of him?? Or is he only talking about the cry of non-muslims??

Time to go for taraweeh. This is getting tiresome. I may post more later, or I may not.

Peace
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#80

Unread post by Peace » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:19 am

badrijanab wrote:
Peace wrote:Dear Badrijanab,

Your copy paste articles are very unique and informative.

Only Allah knows how much authentic they are.

Can you please ask your source to prove Imamat concept from the Quran?
Ok
Dear Badrijanab,

I am eagerly waiting for your answer from June 29, 2012.

badrijanab
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#81

Unread post by badrijanab » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:59 pm

@ Peace: Noted. I will try to revert sooner. Inshallah.

And sorry for the delay.

Peace
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:46 am

Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#82

Unread post by Peace » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:33 pm

badrijanab wrote:@ Peace: Noted. I will try to revert sooner. Inshallah.

And sorry for the delay.
No problem. Thank you.

Peace
Posts: 122
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#83

Unread post by Peace » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:08 am

Peace wrote:
badrijanab wrote: Ok
Dear Badrijanab,

I am eagerly waiting for your answer from June 29, 2012.
badrijanab wrote:@ Peace: Noted. I will try to revert sooner. Inshallah.

And sorry for the delay.
Dear Badrijanab,

I am still waiting for your answer on a very fundamental belief.

Muslim First
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#84

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:05 pm

Peace to Badrijanab

Can you please ask your source to prove Imamat concept from the Quran?


Again Peace to Badrijanab,

I am eagerly waiting for your answer from June 29, 2012.
@ Peace: Noted. I will try to revert sooner. Inshallah.And sorry for the delay

Dear Badrijanab,

I am still waiting for your answer on a very fundamental belief.
Br Peace
Badrijanab can search for ever but he will find no reference in Quran which says Allah gave Islam franchise to Prophet SAW and his progeny from Hz Ali and Bibi Fatema own that franchise . If that was case Allah would have made sure that we all had one living Imam. Our Imam is Quran and Authentic Sunnah.

Wasalaam

badrijanab
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#85

Unread post by badrijanab » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Dear Muslim First,

I will revert on Imamat sooner than latter, Inshallah.

In mean time on what basis do you claim "Authentic Sunna"? Remember Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim were born/worked on Hadees 200-225 years after Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. and per Sunni dogmas no one is masoom (flawless) hence, Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim too can err hence, their produced literature cannot be flawless thus cannot be "fully authentic". Isn't it?

On top of above, followers of Hazrat Bukhari & Hz. Muslim consider both as NOT masoom hence they are not sure with 100% certainity if everything written in both 'Sahih' is correct or incorrect? Which hadees to be considered correct and which otherwise? As these two are not masoom hence their entier work is under shadow of doubts because they both can do errors. Not only their followers but also both Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim themselves do not know if they have collected & categorized all hadees correctly because they can err during collection/categorization process (as per our friend Sunni's dogma's they are not masoom thus subjected to error while hadees collection/categorization) - This is matter of deep concern for those who do not tie themselves with preconceived notions and can correctly & deeply think.
Last edited by badrijanab on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#86

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:02 pm

their produced literature cannot be flawless thus cannot be "fully authentic". Isn't it?
That is incorrect. I have already told you that according to recent changes to the dogma, Bukhari and Muslim are now considered flawless. Ergo, they cannot err.

Muslim First
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#87

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:23 pm

Br Badrijanab
AS

You have some kind of disease where you label Masoom and non Masoom.

As far as I personally am concerned nobody is Masoom except when Allah gives them knowledge, in case of Prophet SAW thru 'Wahi'.

As far as Ahadith from Sunni sources , all Shias have adopted a line that all of them were not reliable except when conveniently proves their belief in Imamat

Take
Hadith of The Cloak (Arabic: حديث الكساء‎ Hadith-e-Kisa) refers to the Ahl al-Kisa. The hadith is an account of an incident where Muhammad gathered Hassan, Husayn, Ali and Fatimah under his cloak. This is mentioned in several ahadith, including Sahih Muslim, where Muhammad is quoted as saying the phrase “Ahl al-Bayt” “People of the House” from the second part of verse 33:33 of the Qur'an; the verse called ‘’Ayat al-Tathir’’ "verse of purification".

Bibi Aisha was only witness to this Hadith. As far Shia are concerned she is a liar and totally unreliable except this Hadith. Along with this Hadith, Hadith of Ghadir Khumm forms basis of Imama for all Shia.

Conveniently

So spare us with your lectures on Ahadith.

Show us where is 'Imamat' in Qra'an?

Wasalaam

badrijanab
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#88

Unread post by badrijanab » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:09 am

Muslim First and Peace, we are trying to present good quality research paper on this form on subject of Imamat. Inshalla. It may take some time, please bear.

In mean time below for your kind perusal -

Muslim First wrote:
As far as I personally am concerned nobody is Masoom except when Allah gives them knowledge, in case of Prophet SAW thru 'Wahi'.
It means Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim too are not masoom (as there is no record of them receiving any 'wahi') thus they are subject to committing errors in collecting and categorizing their 'Sahih'. So, sunnat based on their Sahih too is subjected to mistakes! Hence, their followers cannot claim to be on "Authentic Sunnat", can they?

According to your contention, the Quranic part of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. was 100% flawless because that was guided by 'wahi'. It means, his non-Quranic part i.e. regular course of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. daily life; i.e. his doing and saying (which we terms as 'Sunnat') too are subjected to errors - should you ditto copy Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. then also you are subject to error (per your contention / Sunni's dogma)!!! Hence, you cannot claim following "Authentic Sunnat" when Prophet s.a.w.w. himself at first place per Sunni dogma is subjected to committing errors! Things get further worsned:- Sunni brothers have records of Prophet s.a.w.w. Sunnat 200 years after Prophet via Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim who too are subjected to committing errors about Prophet Mohammed Sunnat which too is subjected to errors per Muslim First sahab contention & Sunni dogmas!!!

Brother & friends Sunni's are not following "Authentic Sunnat"! Are they?

aliabbas_aa
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#89

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:13 pm

when Allah swt himself said in Quran that he has sent down the "Zikr" and he will safeguard the "Zikr", its naive to assume Zikr only to be Quran,rather "Zikr" encompasses all the prophetic sayings . ALLAH has preserved all the sayings of the final prophet pbuh for the sheer reason of he being the final divinely appointed leader to mankind pbuh.

anajmi
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Re: Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

#90

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:31 pm

It means, his non-Quranic part i.e. regular course of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. daily life; i.e. his doing and saying
This displays your ignorance about the Quran and the life of the prophet Mohammed (saw). Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) does nothing that is not the will of Allah. So his sunnat is also as per the will of Allah. The prophet (saw) has never made an error that was not corrected by Allah immediately. So in the end, everything the prophet (saw) has said and done is in agreement with the will of Allah.

Second, and I have repeated this a couple of times, but you seem to be ignoring it because it is becoming a thorn in your back side. According to recent dogma changes, Bukhari and Muslim have been classified as flawless as per 5:55.