Authority?

[progticide]

Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

Take this ayah from the Quran - وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً . Khalifa is clearly mentioned over here. Who is it referring to? Adam? But Adam was a prophet and not khalifa.

Kamzarf Mushriq o Munafiq,
Aa gaya na apni asli auqaat par. Shuru karli apni fitnat. Quran pak ki Ayaton ke saath khilwaad karna shuru kar diya.

Tu aur tera bhai mushriq o munafiq MF pata nahin Quran pak ka naam kehkar kaunsi kitaab padte ho jo tumhare mullaon ne chhapi he. After 1400 years, the Muslims have a new revelation from this group of Mushriqeen and Munafiqeen disguised as Muslims, "That Adam is not the Khalifa who Allah mentions He would appoint on Earth in the Quran 2:30".

Read Quran 38:26, then answer my question nalayak Kamzarf Munafiqs.....Hazrat Dawood(AS) was Prophet or Khalifa? If Hazrat Dawood was a prophet, then why is Allah in this Ayat calling him Khalifa? And if he was a Khalifa and not a prophet that how did Allah reveal onto Hazrat Dawood His word "Zuboor" if Hazrat Dawood was not His Messenger?

Ab bandar ki tarah gulaati marna band kar. Ya to apni galti maan lo aur is forum se apna munh kaala karo aur dobara mat aana. Ya phir abhi aur bhi khujli baaki he to apne Mullaon se jaakar sidha sidha jawaab lekar aao....Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

[exploitedpocket]

who has the authority., and its given by whom - to change the wearings of d b gents like uniform of ambiyaahs.,,

[badrijanab]

Hz Ali is my first hand proof. Hz Ali served under the khilafat of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman. They were religious authority. They passed many religious laws and Hz Ali hasn't overturned any law passed by them. So we can safely say that the first 3 khalifas were appointed by Allah to be religious authority of Islam and had the support of Hz Ali.

Q1) "Hz Ali served under the khilafat of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman." - How that makes those three hazrat as the Islamic authority?

Q2) "They were religious authority. " - Who appointed them as religious authority?

Q3) "They passed many religious laws and Hz Ali hasn't overturned any law passed by them." - Hazrat Umar sahab said, "Quran is enough." Then also he passed new religious laws!!!!!!! Nevetheless, prove when Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. gave authority to those three hazraat to pass new laws for Islam religion?

Q4) "So we can safely say that the first 3 khalifas were appointed by Allah to be religious authority of Islam and had the support of Hz Ali." - Proof of where does Allah in Quran or via his Prophet s.a.w.w. appoints 3 caliph hazraat as the religious authority?

Ali was employed to assist in the religious khilafat of the first three khalifas who were khalifas of Islam after the prophet (saw) passed away. Hence Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman were appointed khalifa by the will of Allah and since Hz Ali supported their khilafat they had the authority of the greatest shia Imam!!

Word "Employed" commonly refers to a state where person is rendering his/her services in expectation of matarial reward; generally money. Was Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. paid any wages/salary from those three caliphs? Quran cannot be bought or sold. Mola Ali a.s. is 'Speaking Quran', even if you do not agree to this then also I do not think Mola Ali a.s. will give religious consultancy service in lieu of salary. So avoid using such ambigous term "employed" in current context.

Q5) In the religious matters Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. not only helped/assisted those three caliph hazraat but also to all Muslims and non-Muslims who asked Mola Ali a.s. for help in the region/hukumat of those three caliphs sahab. Christian priests, Jew priests and common Muslims all have visited Mola Ali a.s. during caliphate of those three caliphs for seeking assistance in Islamic religious matters and Mola Ali a.s. assisted them all. Because Mola Ali a.s. is servicing and assisting those Jews, Christian and Muslims does that make those priests/Muslims any religious authority or superior than Mola Ali a.s.?

Like Mola Ali a.s. assisted everybody including Jews/Christians/Muslims in the same fashion he assisted those three caliphs in the matter of Islamic religion. So, how Mola Ali a.s. servicing/assisting 3 caliphs in Islamic religious matters - makes/appoint those three caliphs as "religious authority"?

Indeed, those three caliph hazraat seeking help of Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. in the matter of Islam religion is the acknowledgement from those three caliph hazraat that Mola Ali a.s. is more knowledgeable than they themselves! Otherwise they should have not taken Mola Ali a.s. help! Hazrat Umar sahab was so profoundly indebted to Mola Ali a.s. for overturning Hz. Umar sahab innovative incorrect new Islamic laws that he frequently use to say, "Agar Ali na hote to Umar halaaq ho gaya hota". In the matter of religion only those three caliph hazraat have taken assistance/services/help of Mola Ali a.s. but never-ever have Mola Ali a.s. said, Abu Bakr help me! or Umar help me! or Usman help me! Pyase ko hi koone ke paas aana padta he, kooan kabhi bhi pyase ke paas nahi jaata

[anajmi]

There is a famous story that the Prophet (saw) prayed to Allah to convert one of the two (either Umar or Abu Jahal) to Islam. So it looks like, the prophet (saw) needed the help of Umar for which he prayed to Allah. Then when the prophet (saw) left Mecca, he was accompanied by Hz Abu Bakr. Allah says in the Quran that the third one with them was Allah. Do you know who paid for the marriage of Hz Ali?

Q1) "Hz Ali served under the khilafat of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman." - How that makes those three hazrat as the Islamic authority?

Read my posts above.

"They were religious authority. " - Who appointed them as religious authority?

Read my posts above.

Q3) "They passed many religious laws and Hz Ali hasn't overturned any law passed by them." - Hazrat Umar sahab said, "Quran is enough." Then also he passed new religious laws!!!!!!! Nevetheless, prove when Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. gave authority to those three hazraat to pass new laws for Islam religion?

Read my posts above.

Q4) "So we can safely say that the first 3 khalifas were appointed by Allah to be religious authority of Islam and had the support of Hz Ali." - Proof of where does Allah in Quran or via his Prophet s.a.w.w. appoints 3 caliph hazraat as the religious authority?

Read my posts above.

Q5)

Read my posts above.

Indeed, those three caliph hazraat seeking help of Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. in the matter of Islam religion is the acknowledgement from those three caliph hazraat that Mola Ali a.s. is more knowledgeable than they themselves!

And that may be so. We see this in our everyday lives. Even I have a lot more knowledge in my field than my boss, and my boss has a lot more knowledge than his boss. But they have a set of skills that I do not and that is why they are the bosses and get paid the big bucks. If you look at the khilafat, the best time for Islam and muslims was during the khilafat of the first 3 khalifas. By the time Hz Ali became a khalifa, chaos was reigning supreme and Hz Ali was never able to bring it under control.

[anajmi]

Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

There are many ayahs that establish this. Look at ayah 21:7 and 16:43. You can also look at ayah 5:55. If these do not convince you then here is the easiest approach known as pesticide approach.

Take this ayah from the Quran - وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً . Khalifa is clearly mentioned over here. Who is it referring to? Adam? But Adam was a prophet and not khalifa. Hence this ayah is referring to the 4 khalifa of Islam (May Allah forgive me for doing to the Quran what the pesticide has done to it. I am doing this only for demonstration purposes). Staying true to his character, pesticide chose not to mention my waiver when he quoted me. Does anyone need anymore proof after this?

If this does not convince you, then you can take the time tested shia approach to the Quran. Take three words from ayah 2:2, 5 words from 2:34, 7 words from 33:33, 11 words from 11:22, take 5 words from hadith 253 from book 3 of Bukhari, and 3 words and a "wow" (arabic "and" - ataf) from hadith 45 from book 2 of Muslim. Combine these words with hadith 775 from book 4 of Abu Dawood and then add the definite Arabic article "AL" and then read it all as one sentence. You will get the proof that Allah made them khalifa.

One question for pesticide that will give him sleepless nights, unless he chooses to use the time tested shia approach.

Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Daawat of your Dai as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

[progticide]

Anajmi,
Were you ever infected with Rabies?

There is a very strong reason why I am asking you this question. There are not many people in this world who survive after getting infected with Rabies through an animal bite. If one is not immediately vaccinated/take anti-rabies shots quickly after an animal bite like dog-bite or bat-bite and develops the disease, it is mostly fatal. There is no cure for Rabies. There are very few cases of survival. But since the Rabies virus attacks the central nervous system of the victim, the victim even if he/she survives mostly loses mental balance and cognitive faculty. Their behaviour is incohesive and their cognitive functions impaired.

Your response, above in particular and other responses on this forum in general, give me an impression that you were once infected with Rabies, somehow survived the trauma, but that has done a lasting and irreversible damage to your grey matter. (I am wondering who had caught the disease first, you or the Dog. If it was you, I pity the end the dog would have met after you bit the dog.)

[Muslim First]

When pushed against the wall and you run out of cogent arguments then you see DB of all persuasion assume abbusing behavior.. They have this inherited gene or it learned from their highest religious leader since they were in their mothers womb. Even Br porus cannot controll himself when backed up to wall.
Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

Br progticide
If you want to abuse me, please send me PM.
I do not want to see you as a fool in public.
Wasalaam

[anajmi]

Well, it looks like since pesticide got his ass kicked he has started seeing dogs with rabies. Since he is surrounded by kothari dogs, no wonder he see rabid dogs whenever he gets his butt kicked.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Were you ever infected with Rabies? There is a very strong reason why I am asking you this question.)

pesticide, you seem to have a strong vested interest in rabies, are you in the business of marketing rabies vaccines or maybe you are a veterinarian? there is a very strong reason i am asking you this question. you see there are many denizens of saifee mahal who need this vaccine. they are openly displaying its symptoms and desperately need your expert medical advice and treatment.

for example, the 53rd dai, the manhoos, made a mind-boggling claim that his dead bro jose' spoke to him from the kabr and later on also informed him that he was able to see the panjatan paak around him. this is well documented in the rizzali risalas...

[progticide]

One fact is crystal clear that the reformist's love for the Sunni/wahabis is more stronger than their hatred for DBs.

Evident from the above post of this dog Al Zulfiqar. He has picked a side in a debate between Ismaili Tayyebi vs. Sunni/wahabi. He prefers to side with the characters like Munafiq Anajmi who is getting battered on this thread. So much pain Al Zulfiqar feels for Anajmi that he has decided to come to his rescue betraying the Ismaili Tayyebi faith.

Interesting to see what does Mubarak a.k.a Badirjanab have to say about the brave effort of Al Zulfiqar?

Looks like Badrijanab is the only Ismaili tayyebi follower left in the reformist club. How long before he falls too?

BTW, Kamzarf Mushriq O Munafiq Anajmi & Muslim First, you were miserable in your defense on this thread. If you have any shame left, leave this forum and repent for your sins.

[zinger]

One fact is crystal clear that the reformist's love for the Sunni/wahabis is more stronger than their hatred for DBs.

Evident from the above post of this dog Al Zulfiqar. He has picked a side in a debate between Ismaili Tayyebi vs. Sunni/wahabi. He prefers to side with the characters like Munafiq Anajmi who is getting battered on this thread. So much pain Al Zulfiqar feels for Anajmi that he has decided to come to his rescue betraying the Ismaili Tayyebi faith.

Interesting to see what does Mubarak a.k.a Badirjanab have to say about the brave effort of Al Zulfiqar?

Looks like Badrijanab is the only Ismaili tayyebi follower left in the reformist club. How long before he falls too?

BTW, Kamzarf Mushriq O Munafiq Anajmi & Muslim First, you were miserable in your defense on this thread. If you have any shame left, leave this forum and repent for your sins.

It very simple progticide janaab, for him, mera dushman ka dushman, mera dost.

[anajmi]

pesticide,

You have been shown to be a liar and a hypocrite above very clearly. Unfortunately, you do not have any shame. So we will keep seeing you getting butt kicked over and over again.

[badrijanab]

Re: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4598 Post# 10264 - Anajmi said, "Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were appointed by the people"

1st, 2nd and 3rd Caliphs are appointed by people and not by Allah. Thus, those 3 do not have any authority from Prophet or Allah to represent Islam or speak on behalf of Islam/Allah/Prophet.

[anajmi]

So you are saying that in matters of Islam, people have more power than Allah himself?

[Al Zulfiqar]

munafiq pesticide,

the more you try to evade my to-the-point questions, the more you come across as a yellow bellied coward and munafiq.

you unburdened yrself of the filth and garbage collected inside you by doing gaali-galoch, but you avoided answering my pertinent and very important comment. here it is again below:

"for example, the 53rd dai, the manhoos, made a mind-boggling claim that his dead bro jose' spoke to him from the kabr and later on also informed him that he was able to see the panjatan paak around him. this is well documented in the rizzali risalas..."

care to comment on the mansoos's phantasmogorical claims?? or better still, do you have a vaccine for him?

[progticide]

So you are saying that in matters of Islam, people have more power than Allah himself?

Let me rephrase your above question to make it answerable:

Anajmi's Question: So you are saying that in matters of wahabism, people have more power than Allah himself?

Answer: Why dont you wahabis decide this among yourselves? We, Ismaili Tayyebis are really busy and therefore not interested in your theological hypothesis. So take your problems somewhere else for now, we have more important issues of ours to resolve. Anyways, thank you for knocking on our doors seeking help to resolve your long standing issues. We sympathise with you for your intellectual bankruptcy. Maybe you can try again later and if time permits we shall bless you with knowledge. Until then, excuse us.

[anajmi]

I remember hearing incidents in my young days about kids who would copy their exams from other kids papers. Since these kids had no knowledge of their own, a lot of times they would end up copying wrong answers for questions. pesticides response to my question has nothing to do with my question. Which proves that pesticide has no knowledge of his own. He just copies from others and fails even to do that correctly.

Now, analyzing his stupid answer.
First, Ismaili Tayyebis are busy doing kiss kiss feet feet? or maatam maatam kharas mithas? Second, in matters of Ismaili Tayyebees, people have more power than Allah. Ismaili Tayyebees will not be able to enter jannah without the permission of their leader who himself cannot go anywhere without other people's help!!

[badrijanab]

So you are saying that in matters of Islam, people have more power than Allah himself?

Bhai Anajmi, YOU have confessed, "People have appointed Hz. Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman".

It is prerogative of Allah/Rasool and not people to appoint who will represent Islam.

As people do not have authority from Allah to appoint anyone to represent Islam. Thus, people cannot transfer that authority to 3 caliphs, though they have appointed them as Caliphs.

As Anajmi rightly said, 1,2,3 Caliphs are appointed by people. So, these 3 caliphs do not have any authority to represent Islam or speak on behalf of Islam or to make any law in the name of Islam. Those 3 are regular kings like Maharana Pratap or Shiva Ji Raje or Sambha Ji Raje. Those 3 were not authorized by Rasool Allah to represent Islam.

[anajmi]

It is prerogative of Allah/Rasool and not people to appoint who will represent Islam.

Correct. It was the will of Allah that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were appointed to the highest position in Islam.

[badrijanab]

It is prerogative of Allah/Rasool and not people to appoint who will represent Islam.

Correct. It was the will of Allah that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were appointed to the highest position in Islam.

Prove?

[anajmi]

Hazrat Ali was reporting to them, and then succeeded them as number 4.

[progticide]

Hazrat Ali was reporting to them, and then succeeded them as number 4.

All members,
So what anajmi is suggesting is that:
1. Prophet(SAWW) passed the authority to Maula Ali. Thereby Maula Ali, as per the authority invested in him by the Prophet(SAWW) became the authority over the muslim ummah.

2. Besides this, Maula Ali decided to report into the first 3 Khalifas.

3. Since the authority was held by Maula Ali, his action of reporting to the 3 Khalifas, made the 3 khalifas genuine khalifas of the Muslims, by virtue of the authority invested by the Prophet(SAWW) in Maula Ali.

4. It is like saying, using analogy again to explain to the members clearly: "A", which is a government organisation, has provided electricity supply connection to "B" which is another government department through an official agreement. Therefore, B is a legal and qualified consumer of the electricity connection from A. Some private companies namely X, Y and Z have inserted their private connections into the power lines going to B's electric meter box. From the private connections now established by X, Y & Z, many other discreet and unknown companies have also diverted supply by using their own private circuit connected to that of X, Y & Z. When questioned with what authority or whose authorisation did X, Y & Z diverted power supply from A on its way to B, the argument given by X, Y & Z was that although they did not have any agreement with A on the use of the power supply given to B, since X, Y & Z were involved in regular business dealings with B and B was also their non-salaried consultant and therefore by virtue of social and business dealings with B, everything belonging to B including the electric power supply provided by A, was open to utilisation/exploitation by X, Y & Z. This logic therefore makes X, Y & Z as "Deemed" consumers of A, albiet without any formal agreement or authorisation from A. As well as all the bills for the electric supply consumption shall also be paid by B, since the connection is taken in the name of B, and no records exist in the name of X, Y & Z in the consumer database of A. And thus, by this logic, the agents of X, Y & Z spread the propogande that the consumers for electric company A shall be in the order:

X - 1st consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B.
Y -2nd consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B
Z - 3rd consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B
B - 4th consumer. All bills and liabilities to be paid by B.

B's contention on remaining silent and not removing the illegal connections of X, Y & Z - "If I remove the illegal connections of these 3, then hundreds of thousands of other connections, although illegal too, drawing supply from these 3 would be rendered without electricity into complete darkness in this long dark night;, so for the sake of these hundreds of thousands of people and their children let the three illegal connections remain. My company shall pay the bills and liabilities during this long dark night, and seek our justice when the light dawns and the Officer on Special Duty arrives and each would be summoned to the court to account for their illegal connections and power consumption."

[anajmi]

Since there was no electricity at that time this analogy does not apply. However, if there was electricity, then this analogy would go like this

X,Y and Z have full authority from B. Besides, X,Y and Z did a lot of development work which was ruined by the employees and "lovers" of B.

[progticide]

X,Y and Z have full authority from B.

The power of attorney/authorisation by A in favour of B dated 18th of Dhu al-Hijjah of 10 AH in the Islamic calendar (March 10, 632 AD) at a place called Ghadir Khumm and formally registered in the records of Allah in the book named Al Quran Majid, chapter 5, verse 3 (Holy Quran 5:3). Besides, copies of the complete text of the agreement available in the record books of all parties even today.

Kindly provide the details of the date, place and copy of the agreement between B & X/Y/Z and the reference of the deed Registration.

[anajmi]

Read the history books. You can also read the Quran ayah 5:3, 5:5, 24:17, 5:55, 4:6. But do not read the full ayahs as full ayahs normally do not make sense to idiots. Take 2 words from here and 4 words from there and you will have the proof that X, Y and Z have the authority from A,B and C.

[progticide]

Read the history books.

Kindly provide the details of the date, place and copy of the agreement between B & X/Y/Z and the reference of the deed Registration.

[anajmi]

Read the history books. You can also read the Quran ayah 5:3, 5:5, 24:17, 5:55, 4:6. But do not read the full ayahs as full ayahs normally do not make sense to idiots. Take 2 words from here and 4 words from there and you will have the proof that X, Y and Z have the authority from A,B and C.