Shias and Sunnis

[anajmi]

Since you didn't understand my point, let me rephrase, instead of calling names, try to make valid points, like I did. I gave you a reason why I call you a mushrik. As per the Quran, Allah is the only one who decides to give Hidaya. He tells even to the prophet (saw) that it is not in his hands. And only with Allah's permission can one enter Jannah and he forbids people from associating partners with him. However, you say, it is only with Ali can you gain knowledge and enter Jannah. So you have now decided to associate partners with Allah and even supercede Allah. Hence, you are a mushrik.

[KA786]

You guys are so quick to play the shirk card. Your usage of term shirk is so twisted. The true shirk is when people kill other muslims by calling them kaafir. Because they are usurping Allah's right to be 'the Lord of Judgement Day'.

Following/obeying the command of Allah is no shirk. Holy Prophet (PBUH) left Ali (A.S) and his progeny as his wasi and by the Grace of Almighty Allah we will follow Ali's (A.S.) guidance till our last breadth. It is your option to ignore Ghadeer Khum Hadith and that is fine (there is no compulsion in religion). Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[anajmi]

Nothing is twisted more than the events of Ghadeer by people like you. You guys have made a mountain out of a mole hill and doomed yourselves. Follow Allah's command and that is good for you and the most important command of Allah is DO NOT ASSOCIATE PARTNERS WITH HIM. Do not say that without Ali you cannot enter Jannah. That is not following Allah's command. That is committing shirk.

[KA786]

Oh my brother in Islam. People like you have been trying their best for the last 1400 years to wipe out the Ghadeer Khum Hadith but have not been able to do that. Keep on trying to cover up the Sun-Light of Ali's(A.S) Willayah by your tiny hands. What is the problem with you folks? All of you want to just usurp Allah's right to be the judge of someone's imaan. We follow Imam Ali's(A.S) teaching and leave you alone and do not judge (It is Allah's right). Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[anajmi]

Actually, the misinterpretation of what happened at Ghadeer has led to people believing that they cannot enter jannah without Ali. A direct violation of what Allah states in the Quran!! Ghadeer has made you people idol worshippers. The sooner you come out of the stupor, the better it will be for you.

[KA786]

In Islam there is no idol worshiping. People tend to throw labels like Idol-wroshippers, mushriks when they do not have any cogent arguments. I am puzzled at your ignorance of Shia belief. We believe in obeying Allah and His Prophet (PBUH). Since Holy Prophet (PBUH) left Ali (A.S) as his Wasi, we will keep following Ali(A.S). Holy Prophet would not have left Ali (A.S) as his Wasi if it was not the Will of Allah. This Quranic verse (5:3) "Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3) was revealed immediately after the designation of Ali(A.S) as the successor of Holy Prophet (PBUH). Without the revelation of Ali (A.S) Islam is not complete. As I said in my posts earlier that you are free to choose what to believe in, because there is no compulsion in religion. But be respectful of other fellow Muslims interpretation as well. Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[anajmi]

Without the revelation of Ali (A.S) Islam is not complete.

And yet you question why I call you a mushrik. The history of this verse as taught to you is nothing more than a fairy tale. Most verses you have already quoted and are going to quote in the future are simply interpreted to suit your beliefs. Give the Quran to any person with an open mind and he will scratch his head after you give him your interpretation!!

[KA786]

Still hurling labels at fellow Muslims. It is Allah who will judge us. Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[anajmi]

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that without Ali you cannot enter Jannah? Do you believe that without Ali you cannot get any hidaya?

[KA786]

My goal is to attain the approval/pleasure of Allah by following Him and His Prophet's (PBUH) commands. Accepting Ali (A.S) as Imam is obedience of the Nabi (PBUH) which in turn is the obedience of Allah. As far as entering paradise, I do not have any free passes to give out. It is by ones own good deeds, obedience to Allah and Allah's judgement and Grace that one may get entrance into paradise. Teachings of Mowla Ali (A.S) do not allow me to judge anyone. It is Allah's domain to judge each person's imaan. Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[anajmi]

A good and politically correct answer. See how easy it was to give up the faulty claim? It is Allah who is responsible for giving Guidance and Allah is the one who will judge who gets into heaven and who doesn't. Today, how do muslims get guidance? Ali isn't there to guide them is he? But his teachings are. Does he teach that you first need to accept him as the first Imam or the successor? No. No teachings of Ali claim that. And what are Ali's teachings? They are simply what was taught to him by the prophet (saw). And was he the only one that the prophet (saw) taught? No. He taught many others and his traditions have been transferred by all of them. The Sunnah of the prophet (saw) has many authentic narrations from Ali and his other great companions like Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. I do not reject those narrations. So to say that people like me hate Ali is just pure crap.

Infact, the bohras have now rejected Nahjul Balagha as a fabrication.

This elevation of Ali to superman status is not the teaching of Ali. But of those who came much much after Ali. They taught these things to elevate their own positions. So when you say you are following Ali, you are not. You are just following some other guy who came much later and twisted everything around.

[KA786]

My answer was inline with teachings of Hazrat Ali (A.S). We do not vilify anyone for their interpretation. And we expect same for ours. Just like Holy Prophet (PBUH), Hazrat Ali (A.S.) was more than mere human being like you and I. As Holy Prophet said 'Ali and I are of the same Noor' and many similar hadiths. Nahajul Balagha is a very genuine book and full of wisdom. Read it and it will increase your knowledge. Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[Muslim First]

KA786
Just like Holy Prophet (PBUH), Hazrat Ali (A.S.) was more than mere human being like you and I.

How.
Did he also got visit from angels? How many massages he received directly from Allah? How many miracles he performed?

KA786
As Holy Prophet said 'Ali and I are of the same Noor'

Can you described how one gets Noor of Allah, even Prophets?
How does this Noor gets transferred from one Imam to other?
Do they hook up with wires to transfer Noor.

Well this line is really not true
Adam ko Khuda mat kaho, Adam Khuda nahi. Lekin Khuda ke Noor se Adam Juda nahi

So this "Lekin Khuda ke Noor se Adam Juda nahi" is not really true. Only your MHI has Noor today.

Yes brother, He has Noor because he is white European and you brownes worship it.


Brother
This Noor business is in your head
Your MHI needs to eat, drink, pee and take crap just like you.
I am sure he puts on his pants one leg at time, just like you
Give little thought. Stop worshipping white guy and start worshiping only Allah

[Muslim First]

Deleted

[Muslim First]

Nahajul Balagha is a very genuine book and full of wisdom. Read it and it will increase your knowledge.

Have you read this?
What does it say?

In the Nahjul Balagha, one of the most revered books of the Shia, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) said in Sermon 126:

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”

(Source: Al-Islam.org, http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/126.htm)

You know who follows middle course.

People who follow Quran and Sunnah
Not those who follow MHI, Imam hiding or imam Gaib.

[KA786]

You are brilliantly showing your pedigree. Go back to your teacher and ask him to teach you again the lesson of civility.
I have read Nahjul-Balagha and I have the book myself. You can keep showing your ignorance by hatred and keep twisting words. "The best man with regards to me is he who is on the middle course" (means: That is the one who follows Hazrat Ali (A.S) but does not hate those people who do not accept Ali(A.S.) as Imam). Oh Allah send your Blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His progeny.

[KA786]

KA786
Just like Holy Prophet (PBUH), Hazrat Ali (A.S.) was more than mere human being like you and I.

How.
Did he also got visit from angels? How many massages he received directly from Allah? How many miracles he performed?

KA786
As Holy Prophet said 'Ali and I are of the same Noor'

Can you described how one gets Noor of Allah, even Prophets?

To understand it will take you ages. First you will need a thirsty mind and soul. Apparently your vessel already full for any new knowledge. But I will throw something at you. Hadith Law Laak.:

“When Allah made Adam He revealed to Adam to ask Him: O Allah! Why have you made my kuniyah as ‘Abu Muhammad’? Allah said: O Adam! Lift you head. He lifted his head and saw the noor (light) of the Prophet of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) on the ‘Arsh. Adam asked: O Allah! Whose is this noor? Allah said: It is a Prophet from your progeny. His name is Ahmad in the skies and Muhammad on the Earth. If he were not created, I would not have created you or the skies and the Earth”.

That is the Noor which Holy Prophet said that Ali and I are of the same noor. But as the poet says: "Marde Nadan par ... be asr"

Oh Allah send your blessings to Muhammad (PBUH) and His Progeny.

[JavedhJuma]

[quote]“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, [quote]

Read and absorb before you make a fool of your self. He says "he who loves me too much and the love takes him from rightfulness. Allah SWT is the Haq! As long as we love Ali AS too much but keep in mind Allah SWT is the Haq and that is why every morning at 4 a.m. Ismailis gather in Jamat Khana's and sit and do zikra of Allah SWT for a whole hour, we stay on Sirat-al-Mustaqeem. So this applies to us! I am sure it applies to you somewhere. But where?

Right here: "and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness".

[quote] The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity.[quote]
I think this applies to the Ismailis and MHI and other Muslims who preach unity within Ummah.. MHI is always talking about unity, tolerance, brotherhood within Allah's creation and NO FITNAS. And to this effect he has opened Center for Pluralism in Ottawa. Recently I have heard Mazum Saheb also talk of unity and tolerance.

You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf.

I think this applies to people who think like you. I am not going to say which sect, because you are a disgrace to any Islamic sect.

[quote] Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.[quote]
Although you are not under his head band, you continuously preach sectariansim, e.g. MHI, Gaib Imam, hidden Imam. May be this applies to you.

It keeps pointng to your fellows who kill Ahemedias, Ithanasheris, christinans, hindus, etc. Go figure! And in this forum you trample on all sects who do not share your beliefs. You are playing God! Sad!

You state:"You know who follows middle course. He who follow Quran and Sunnah. Not those who follow MHI, Imam in hiding, Gaib Imam"
What he spelled out is somebody trying to maintain unity. This is what he has written otherwise he would have said people who follow Sunnah and Qura'n. You don't even do that. All day you preach hatred and criticise fellows Muslims andtry to disunite them. MF, you are living on a different planet. Hatred is not in Qur'an and is not a Sunnah. I don't want to go further than that.

[JavedhJuma]

infact Umar was the first one..

Was it oath or congretulation?

If Ali was appointed Mansoos then drama at Sakifa was not necessary.

Read
Rational proof #1 and learn

I am still waiting to hear from you. I repeat:
MF, I am still waiting to hear from you. If Hazarat Umar did not give oath to Hazarat Ali AS and congratulated him then why did he congratulate him? In other words, you accept that Ghadir-E-Khoum is a reality and not a fiction created by Ali A.S. "idolizers"?
Save yourself further humiliation.
Your silence speaks a thousand words. Thanks.

[silvertongue]

Numerous Hadiths states about Umar congratulating Maula Ali a.s. And Ghadeer E Khum is not a fairy tale as some think of or else what about the three Ayats of the Quran which goes as follows:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)

"A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent." (70:1-3)

[Muslim First]

Numerous Hadiths states about Umar congratulating Maula Ali a.s. And Ghadeer E Khum is not a fairy tale as some think of or else what about the three Ayats of the Quran which goes as follows:
Please post Shahi Hadith

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
This Aya was revealed after farewell address. Can you post whole Aya, please
"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)
This Aya was revealed after farewell address. Can you post whole Aya, please
"A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent." (70:1-3)

[Muslim First]

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

Let me post 5:66-68 from Maudidi

(5:66) Had the People of the Book observed the Torah and the Gospel, and all that had been revealed to them from their Lord, sustenance would have been showered over them from above and risen from beneath their feet. *96 Some among them certainly keep to the right path; but many of them do things which are evil.

(5:67) O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord, for if you fail to do that, you have not fulfilled the task of His messengership. Allah will certainly protect you from the evil of men. Surely Allah will not guide the unbelievers (to succeed against you).

(5:68) Say to them: 'People of the Book! You have no solid ground to stand on unless you establish the Torah and the Gospel and all that had been revealed to you from your Lord. *97 Indeed the message revealed to you from your Lord will aggravate insurgence and unbelief in many of them. *98 So do not grieve for those who disbelieve.

You see here? You are fed garbage by your scholars
Quran is talking about "people of book" not people gathered in the middle of desert.

Why 5:68 did not say 'Say to them: 'People gathered at Gadheer"! instead "Say to them: 'People of the Book!?

[Muslim First]

From Maudidi
(5:3) Forbidden to you are carrion, *9 blood, the flesh of swine, the animal slaughtered in any name other than Allah's, *10 the animal which has either been strangled, killed by blows, has died of a fall, by goring or that devoured by a beast of prey - unless it be that which you yourselves might have slaughtered while it was still alive *11 - and that which was slaughtered at the altars. *12- *13
You are also forbidden to seek knowledge of your fate by divining arrows. *14 All these are sinful acts. This day the unbelievers have fully despaired of your religion. Do not fear them; but fear Me. *15 This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion. (Follow, then, the lawful and unlawful bounds enjoined upon you.) *16 As for he who is driven by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, surely Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate. *17

According to authentic traditions this verse was revealed in 10 A.H. on the occasion of the Prophet's Farewell Pilgrimage. The context however, seems to indicate that it was revealed soon after the conclusion of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah (i.e. in 6 A.H.). All parts of the discourse in which this verse occurs are so tightly interwoven and so closely inter-connected that it hardly seems conceivable that it should have been inserted here several years later. My own estimate - and true knowledge of this lies with God alone - is that this verse was originally revealed in its present context (i.e. commenting upon the conditions prevailing at the time of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah). It is conceivable that the true significance of the verse was not then fully appreciated. But later on, when Islam prevailed over the whole of Arabia and the power of Islam reached a high point, God once again revealed this sentence to His Messenger and ordered him to proclaim it.

So here Quran talks about what is lawful and unlawful and Shia take part of it and say that this was delivered after declaring Hz Ali as Maula?

85% of Ummah are not that stupid

[chocoman]

85% of Ummah are not that stupid

Oh you muslim first and anajmi you guys!!!! hahahha this has always been the rule of the world that "Majority wins"...... I had the same thinking until I came across a friend.
As a shia, I was in a dilemma about my faith. One of the great causes of this dilemma was, if we are on the path of haq why are we minority in the Islamic world. Then I started to visit sunni forums. I came across people like Muslim first and anajmi bragging about their strenght in Islam accusing shias as kafirs. This exasperated my spirit and the doubts grew. The mixed thoughts about Aqa Ali (A.S) and the three other khalifs but then last year I happened to meet one omani abadi Muslim brother, let me tell you abadis are one of the most tolerant muslims you can ever come across. I had a discussion with him on the same matter looking at my tainted spirit he made me realize that being a minority is not a bad thing as the Quran itself stated and discussed about the majority being at the wrong path, the majority going to hell and so on. This was an eye opener Alhamdolilah. This same can be seen in the battle of Karbala the majority were worng to slain the handful who were on haq.
Now, I agree shias are known as follower of Aqa Ali (A.S) but some of them really take this love to next level. However, does this mean Allah will curse them for their great love of Rasul (S.A.W) and his progeny? Well, for Wahabis, anajmi and Muslim first may be yes but in the eyes of Allah........InshAllah No! because he is the most merciful, generous and kind to his servants. He knows you more than you know yourself. The fact people judging others on their belief is the point of dismay.
Anajmi and Muslim first, you tend to emphasize on Aqa Ali(A.S) and other things that are not compatible with your beliefs but I feel that you guys are using these subjects as a stepping stone to defend your khalifs. I know, they are not regarded in high regards in shia school of though but Ali(A.S) stood for the unity of Muslims and as shias we stand for the same point, lets not discuss the differences but the similarities, lets not talk about hate but lets try to talk about happiness and love. It is my conviction that Islam came in this world for the good of mankind but one has rightly said. "Islam is the best religion but the worst followers are muslims"

[ghulam muhammed]

85% of Ummah are not that stupid

Oh you muslim first and anajmi you guys!!!! hahahha this has always been the rule of the world that "Majority wins"......

It is not necessary that because a 'Majority' of people believe in something it has to be true and vice versa !! There is a little known Yazidi sect which are mostly found in Iraq and which claims to be Muslims and its population is far far less then even the shias so does it mean that they are on the right path ?? NO !! The same goes with the Ahmedi sects too. Then there are Parsees who are not even a lakh so does that mean that they are right ?? Buddhists and Christians are in vast majority but are they on the right path ?? So my dear friend, its never about majority or minority, its only about TRUTH, the concept of which may differ from person to person !!

[Muslim First]

Now, I agree shias are known as follower of Aqa Ali (A.S) but some of them really take this love to next level. However, does this mean Allah will curse them for their great love of Rasul (S.A.W) and his progeny?

Hz Ali says in his sermon;

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”

Shia completely ignore this very important sermon.
See you and those who love Hz Ali excessively will be doomed because your love has taken you away from worshipping Allah and now you worship Ahl e bait.

Great majority (85%) stayed united from day one to this day.
Even after Gadhir great majority never accepted that it was appointment of Wali.

[chocoman]

Ghulam Muhammed, you discussed yazidis, buddhists, christians. I think thats pretty naive. Do you even think that's Islam. I know its always about the truth but how about people twisting the truth and misinterpreting it in order to suit their needs. I'm shocked you didn't mention nusayris who take Ali (A.S) as god.

Muslim first, I'm aware of this sermon, it is contextual. Indeed the truth is with Ali (A.S) and the Ali (A.S) is with the truth. Do you really think shias take him as God, Well, I don't, I'm sure a shia can never take Ali (A.S) in that level. We take him as role model as a Maula as an Imam(leader). Well, there are handful of them who do consider Ali (A.S) as god like the nusayris but they have their reasons, just following the likes of predecessors who witnessed the magnificence of Ali (A.S) and were led by their little intelligence to a wrong path (this sermon is for them). However, as a shia when we pray salat. Allahu Akbar is the first thing that we call out and yes we believe in Wasilas and tawassul to reach Allah but it really doesn't mean that we are worshipping Ahlul Bayt (A.S).

Again you brag about this majority. What great thing has it done? creating fitnahs? abolishing Islamic heritage. The majority who revolted against Aqa Hussain (A.S). This same majority has ruined Islam. judging other sects and declaring kafirs......ummmm. Quran mentions Allah has given us 'Akal' think for yourself.

[SBM]

What al-Azhar says about Shias? Statements about Shias by the Chancellor of al-Azhar University, Dr. Ahmad al-Tayyib. In an interview to Egyptian Al Neel Channel, Dr. Ahmad al-Tayyib, the Chancellor of Al-Azhar University (Egypt)

Q. In your opinion, isn’t there any problem in Shia Beliefs?
A. Never, 50 years ago Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot, the then Chancellor of Al Azhar, had issued a fatwa that Shia School is the fifth Islamic School and as like as the other schools.


Q. Our children are embracing Shia Islam, what should we do?
A. Let them convert and to embrace Shia School. If someone leaves Maliki or Hanafi Sect, do we criticize him? These children are just leaving fourth school and join the fifth.

Q. The Shias are becoming relatives with us and they are getting married with our children!
A. What is wrong with this, marriage between religions is allowed.

Q. It is said that the Shias have a different Quran!
A. These are the myths and superstitions of the elderly women. Shia Quran has no any difference with ours, and even the script of their Quran is like our alphabet.

Q. 23 clerics of a country (Saudi Arabia) issued a fatwa that the Shia are infidels, heretics (Kafirs)!!
A. Al-Azhar is the only authority to issue fatwa for Muslims; therefore the above said fatwa is invalid and unreliable.

Q. So what does the difference - being raised between the Shia and the Sunni - mean?
A. These differences are the part of the policies of foreign powers who seek conflict between The Shia and the Sunni.

Q. I have a very serious question that “the Shia do not accept Abu Bakr and Umar, how you can say they are Muslims?”
A. Yes, they do not accept them. But is the belief in Abu Bakr and Umar a part of the principles of Islam? The story of Abu Bakr and Umar is historic and history has nothing to do with fundamentals of the beliefs.

Q. (The reporter surprised by the response, asks) Shia has a fundamental problem and that is “they say that their Imam the time (امام العصر) is still alive after 1,000 years!”
A. He may be alive, why is it not possible? But there is no reason that we – as Sunni - should believe just like them.

Q. (Referring to Imam Mohammad Taqi al-Jawad AS, (the 9th Imam of Shias) the reporter asked) The Shias believe that one of their Imams was just eight-year old when he became Imam; is it possible that an eight-year-old child be the Imam?
A. If an infant in a cradle can be a prophet (Issa AS), then why an eight-year-old child can not be the Imam? It is not strange. Although we may not accept this belief as we are Sunni. However, this belief does not harm their Islam, and they are Muslims.

>
> Translated by F.H.Mahdavimy

[anajmi]

Can we ask him a few questions about Al-Hayy Al-Muqaddas Dai as well?

[Muslim First]

A. Al-Azhar is the only authority to issue fatwa for Muslims; therefore the above said fatwa is invalid and unreliable.

Quran and Sunnah are proper authority. It is clear from it that " There is no god but Allah". Allah says he is as close to you as your jugular vain. Can anything else be closer? Why waste time when you can beseech Allah directly?

This guy is just trying to please everybody.