Sulaimani Bohras

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Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Sulaimani Bohras

#1

Unread post by Enquirer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:38 am

Hello,

I am doing research on Ismaili Shia Islam. I am currently focusing on the beliefs and history of Mustali Tayyibi Ismaili Islam (Bohras).

I have found a lot of information on Dawoodi and Alavi Bohras. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get information on the Sulaimani Bohra community.

So, three requests:
-I would like to talk with someone who is a member of the Sulaimani Bohra community. If you are a member, or know someone who is, I would like to talk with you.
-If you have information about the Sulaimani Bohras, I would like to talk with you here, or by email.
-Do the Sulaimani Bohras have a website, in any language?

With kind regards,
Enquirer

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:38 am

What information did you find on the Dawoodi and Alavi bohras?

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#3

Unread post by think » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:26 pm

sulemani bohras are in big numbers in Los angeles. try to get hold of someone whose last name is simjhi. many have settled in birmingham, u.k. and also in rangoon, burma.

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#4

Unread post by Enquirer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:15 pm

Dear Anajmi: I found quite a bit on both the Dawoodi and Alavi Bohras. For the Dawoodis, there is much on their news and history. I've found both positive and critical portrayals. The Alavi website at www.alavibohra.org has quite a bit on their doctrinal beliefs. Of particular interest to me is their catechism or statement of principles at http://www.alavibohra.org/Taj-ul-Aqaa'id.htm. (I am primarily interested in Bohra philosophical and theological teachings).

On the other hand, I have found very, very little on the Sulaimani Bohras.

My main question about the Sulaimanis: Do they believe their Da'i al-mutlaq is kal ma'sum (possessing qualified infallibility)? It seems that Dawoodi and Alavi Bohras believe this. My impression is that the Sulaimanis do not. But I am looking for confirmation.

Dear Think:

Thank you very much for this practical information. I thought Sulaimanis were only living in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, India, and Pakistan. Interesting to hear that some are in L.A. and Birmingham.

Does their mansub still live in Boroda?

genesis
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#5

Unread post by genesis » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:56 am

Enquirer,
M.F.Hussain was a sulaimani bohra. He is survived by his son Owais Hussain who lives in London. You could google his name and look for leads on his mail ID . He is known to be a of friendly, unassuming character.
By the way, members would like if you could post your research here, especially on DBs.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#6

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:47 am

Dear Enquirer,

The topic about Suleiman Bohras has been discussed on this forum earliar. Their Dai is based in Mansouriya city of Najran province in South of Saudi Arabia. You did not find much about them because most details are available in Arabic language. This sect is also divided in to two groups of Hussainiya and Muhaiseniya. Please search on this website and you will find enough. While researching about Bohras, I would suggest you to read about Mehdibaughwala ( Nagpuri Bohras/ Artaliswala) too who are based in Nagpur and now has been divided in to Badri and vakili Sect.

Best regards.

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#7

Unread post by Enquirer » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:39 pm

genesis wrote:Enquirer,
M.F.Hussain was a sulaimani bohra. He is survived by his son Owais Hussain who lives in London. You could google his name and look for leads on his mail ID . He is known to be a of friendly, unassuming character.
By the way, members would like if you could post your research here, especially on DBs.
Dear Genesis,

Thank you for this information. Owais Hussain appears to be hard to reach, but I will keep trying. My primary interest is in Ismaili doctrines (aqeedah, kalam, hikmah, and fiqh). But cultural history is also interesting. MF Hussain appears to have had quite a life.

My knowledge of Ismailis in general, and in particular of Bohras, was almost zero until a few months ago. I've gotten information that's new for me, but it would be elementary for the members of this forum. When I have time, I'll try to jot down a few of the things I've learned.

My interest in the Bohras is, in part, because of the Fatimid Caliphate. My impression is that the Musatli Tayyibi ISmailis (Bohras) have been more conservative in maintaining Fatimid doctrines and practices than the Nizari Ismailis.

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#8

Unread post by Enquirer » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:48 pm

Hussain_KSA wrote:Dear Enquirer,

The topic about Suleiman Bohras has been discussed on this forum earliar. Their Dai is based in Mansouriya city of Najran province in South of Saudi Arabia. You did not find much about them because most details are available in Arabic language. This sect is also divided in to two groups of Hussainiya and Muhaiseniya. Please search on this website and you will find enough. While researching about Bohras, I would suggest you to read about Mehdibaughwala ( Nagpuri Bohras/ Artaliswala) too who are based in Nagpur and now has been divided in to Badri and vakili Sect.

Best regards.
Dear Hussain_KSA,

Thank you. I did read an earlier discussion on the Sulaimani Bohras in this forum. That is why I joined the forum and posted my query.

The content I read here was indeed very helpful. I have, however, some further questions, mainly about doctrine. Researching a religion requires reading texts by or talking with actual members. Third party descriptions can only go so far. Hence, my queries.

I think one your posts had some links to Arabic sites, but it seemed those links weren't working now. Could you kindly post a current link to a Sulaimani website? Or, are there any websites that describe their basic principles, like the Alavi website does for the Alavis?

I really have just a few theological questions. If a Western scholar had written about the beliefs of the Sulaimanis, I would not be making these queries.

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#9

Unread post by Enquirer » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:05 pm

I just now found this discussion on the Sulaimanis at this forum thread:

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=1125

S. Insaf wrote:
Sulemani Bohras – Dr. Brown in his book ‘Literary History of Persia and Al-Fakhri, the historian of Addaside and Fatimi dynasties say that Suleman could only influence the majority of Ismaili Bohras in Yemen about his claim of Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah’s successor; therefore the majority of Sulemani Bohras remained and they still live in Yeman and their main Da'i also stays in Yemen. Most of them are of Arabian stock. It should also be noted that there are no substantial theological and doctrinal differences between the Sulemanis and Dawoodis. The dispute related to the question of succession alone. They also believe in doctrine of Misaq but Misaq is taken for Imam and their Dai uses no compulsion for it.
So, do I understand correctly: Among the Dawoodi and Alavi Bohras, one makes mithaaq to the da'i al-mutlaq, but among the Sulaimani Bohras one gives it to the Imam?

I have read that, for the most part, the doctrines and practices of the Sulaimanis, the Dawoodis, and the Alavis are the same. But the Sulaimani dai exercises far less authority over his followers. I wonder if this is due, in part, to doctrinal differences over the office of da'i?

For example, the Dawoodis and Alavis believe their da'i is kal ma'sum. Do the Sulaimanis believe this as well?

The doctrine of "kal ma'sum" interests me because it is very similar to Roman Catholic teachings about papal infallibility. The popular press misrepresents papal infallibility. It does not mean the Pope is infallible on every statement. He is infallible only when teaching official doctrines. So, he is not infallible the way Jesus is infallible. Likewise, it seems that the Dawoodi Bohras distinguish between the way the Imam is infallible and the infallibility of the da'i. The da'i , as I understand it, is infallible only when teaching on official doctrines. So, he is not ma'sum without qualification, but kal ma'sum. From my readings, the Dawoodi declaration of this principle goes back to the 1630s CE. Coincidentally, the great theoretician of papal infallibility, St Robert Bellarmine, died in the early 1600s. Again, I wonder what the Sulaimanis believe about their da'i.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#10

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:34 am

Enquirer,

Even in Dawoodi Bohras meethaqu is for Imam only. However now they are changing the concept. To know more better you should read the book " Mullas on main frame" written with the support of Kothar by a western researcher. It is available on amazon. Otherwise send me you email through pm and I will help you. Alvi, Suleimani or dawoodi all are following the same sharia and jurisprudence only different is that they are divided on the linage of duaats.

Regards

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#11

Unread post by Enquirer » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Thank you, Hussain, for your book recommendation and other advice.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#12

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:30 pm

In Karachi one time Sulemani chai was tea without the cream/milk.

Enquirer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#13

Unread post by Enquirer » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:48 am

seeker110 wrote:In Karachi one time Sulemani chai was tea without the cream/milk.
Interesting!

Here is a descriptive summary pf Sulaimani customs in Gujarat:

http://books.google.ee/books?id=4Cy_-FX ... ra&f=false

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#14

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:01 am

seeker110 wrote:In Karachi one time Sulemani chai was tea without the cream/milk.
Brother seeker,

Suleiman chai is a term which is for a tea without milk. If you drink tea with milk it is called Adani Chai. I am talking about middle east.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#15

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:45 pm

Also Kathna was referred as Sulemani. Mostly by Memon community.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#16

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:46 am

since enquirer is doing research on bohras with all their sub-sects, he should also attempt to re-define their nomenclature based on their present practices and belief sets.

for example, the dawoodi bohras of today should be more aptly named as SULTANI BOHRAS? they are slaves to a dai who calls himself 'sultan al bawahir', i.e. sultan of bohras. he is the absolute ruler and his followers are his bonded labourers and slaves. he owns them body, mind and soul and he can keep them or discard them at will, he can seize his followers' properties, assets, wives and kids and chuck the hapless rebel out of the 'sultani kingdom'.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#17

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:54 pm


haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#18

Unread post by haqniwaat » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:43 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:An old post on Sulemani Bohras :-

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=649&p=10766&hilit=y ... din#p10766
Interesting comparison to Sulayman mufaddal bs.

Dr Fatema
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am

Re: Sulaimani Bohras

#19

Unread post by Dr Fatema » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:21 am

There are many Sulaimani in Gulf countries also. I know few of them personally. They resemble to ordinary Indian musalmaan.