Choosing faith for my self !!!

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
LionHunter
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:51 am

Choosing faith for my self !!!

#1

Unread post by LionHunter » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:09 am

Bismillah Al rahman Al rahim,

All praise to ALLAH alone who is most glorious and most merciful.

Amma baad,



after long war within my self I have decided to follow shia ithna ashari school of thoughts for my self, I have found this is the only sect (school) which is going along with ISLAM and ahlul bayt teachings, from this ramadan Inshallah I will follow principles of ithna ashari's.

as far as bohras are concern I see little hope with any revolution or any kind of justice coming from bohra leader in next 1000 years.

my best wishes with bohra brothers and there coming generations.

Allah hafiz feeamanillah.


ps- I will not participate in any more dialogues on this forum, because its not my business and concern any more.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#2

Unread post by porus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:32 am

LionHunter wrote:I will not participate in any more dialogues on this forum, because its not my business and concern any more.
I commend you on your decision and let me be the first to congratulate you on discovering your 'true' faith'. It is your God-given right to choose a faith for yourself and I wish you good luck.

My especial praise for your very wise decision not to participate on this forum any more. You rightly say it no longer concerns you.

In parting, I would like you to offer your sound advice to Muslim First and anajmi, who though no longer Bohras, are not able to let go. You would do them and this board a very noble service if you succeed. While you will be in honorable company studying Nahjul Balagha, Kulaini, Kafi etc, they could study legions of great classical Sunni scholars instead of wasting their time here. Please advise them using pm only. Thank you.

badrijanab
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#3

Unread post by badrijanab » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:49 am

In reference to matarial matters:
In Kothari Bohras, Kothar con their subject and extract money. They don't give accounts for money extracted.
In Ithna Asheri, the unauthorised Marja and Ayatullah extract money (20% on net income every year) from their subject. They don't give account for the money extracted. The money was collected for Imams - but they don't give to Imam and like Kothar they keep it with themselves.


In reference to spiritual matters:
1. Allah told Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. should you not declare 'nuss' (declaration of successor) over Mola Ali a.s. then it is akin to you not doing any job as Prophet. And when Prophet did it on 18th Zilhijj Hijri 10, Allah sent another aayat: Today the deen is complete. So the action of 'nuss' (successor declaration) is the most important action. Hasan Askari sahab died without making any 'nuss' over Mohammed!!!

2. Ithna Asheri says no one knows about the where about or anything related to their 12th Imam - then from where they got this news that he is still alive?!!!

3. Like Kothar is not appointed by Ismaili Fatimi Imam, in same way all Ayatullah and Marja are unauthorised i.e. their 12th Imam has not appointed them!!!

4. Ithna Asheri believes in eating latrine and drinking toilet of their Imams. Imam Hasan a.s. was deceived to drink poison and likewise many other Imams too were deceived likewise... so logically (intelligent wise) their urine (till the day they die) will have effect of poison in it hence it is harmful for any human body.

5. Ithna Aheri leaders to justify their lust have conned their subject to rape women (Mutaha) is halal in Islam and the irony is they say it is route to great blessings from Allah!!! Kothari leader Burhanuddin sahab too cruised Elizabeth Ship where naked/semi naked women serves alcohol.

6. Mohammed (Ithna Asheri's perceived 12th Imam) - who verified if he was really the real son of Hasan Askari? Abbasi Caliph who forged Ithna Asheri sect to counter and divide Shia's (rightful Ismaili's) and those vested interest (who eat 20% every year taxed to Ithna Asheri's) realized: Hasan Asakari died without any successor so let again plot by introducing a boy and will make him disappear so no one can question him... if boy opened mouth then his lies will be detected! No one at the burial of Hasan Askari have verified if the boy was really the authorised person! Now those vested interest floated a con: that only son of Imam can conduct last rituals of dead Imam. Catch is: Dyeing Imam Nakli, so his son is nakli. Prove from Nahjul Balagha if there is any such condition that previous Imam last rituals can be conducted only by his successor Imam?

7. Allama Tabahatabai of Ithna Asheri has contended that no Marja and Ayatullah can declare fatwa without referring to Usool-a-kaafi and this very book is the single most important and fully reliable for info on Hadees. But Baqir Majlisi contends that most of the Hadith in Usool-a-kaafi are forged and false like that in Bukhari and Muslim.

8. Usuool-a-kaafi is the oldest and reliable book of hadith for Ithna Asheri's - know who are the 'raavees' - check their names! When Kulaini was begging and collecting Hadees; that era was approx 200 to 250 years after the episode of Karbala. Now in this long 200-250 years at least eight generations should have passed - Ithna Asheri falsely claim that unlike Bukhari and Muslim their Hadees collected by Kulaini are only from Shia's and not Sunni's. Will any Shia keep names of their ward on the names of enemies of Ahlul Bait who murdered Imam Hussain a.s., Imam Hasan a.s. and Mola Ali a.s.? NO, Never. Now check the names of 'sanad' chains of 'raavees' in Usool-a-kaafi: Mawiya, Yazeed, Marwaan, Usman, Shimr, etc - the inference is matter of common sense!

9. Baqir Majlisi, Kulaini, Tirmizi, Shaharistani, and many other prominent Ithna Asheri all are unanimous about Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place originally has conferred 'nuss' over Imam Ismail a.s. - now to justify conning their subject they sinned against Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. - it is firm belief of Shia's (both Fatimi's and Ithna Asheri) that Imam cannot err; he is flawless - Ithna Asheri sin by contending that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. has made mistake in conferring 'nuss' and later changed it from Imam Ismail a.s. to Hazrat Musa Kazim!!!

9.B. Further to above point #9, in Usool-a-Kaafi their is tradition which says after Imam Hasan a.s. and Imam Hussain a.s. the Imamat will never ever be conferred with over two siblings/brother. As Imam Ismail a.s. was originally conferred 'nuss' as agreed by all prominent Ithna Asheri, and as Musa Kazim was younger brother of Imam Ismail a.s. - so as per Ithna Asheri own book - forged appointment of Musa Kazim as Imam is null and void.

10. Imamat is core to Shia - In entire book of Usool-a-kafi the oldest and most reliable Hadith book of Ithna Asheri - their is NO chapter on Imamat!!! Where else for Fatimi Dawat (Kothar are not part of Fatimi Dawat they are same like Sathya Sai Baba who fool common person and pocket money from them) in their core book "Daimul Islam" the first chapter itself is on Walayat and Imamat, the "Walayat" is considered as the pillar of Islam by Ismailis indeed.

11. Ithna Asheri agrees to following Hadees of Prophet s.a.w.w.: Mohammed and Ali are the father and mother of mumineen and Ali is superior to his sons. To complete the count of "twelve" Ithna Aheri have sinned against Mola Ali a.s. like they sinned against Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. - they pulled down Mola Ali a.s. from post of 'Wali' to post of 'Imam' and made Mola Ali a.s. same in status like that of other Imam's!!!

12. All six Imam's of Ithna Asheri after Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. are son's of bond-maid (slave women) either purchased from market or won in war (these all are aboriginally non-Muslima i.e. why they are sold in market or distributed as war booty). Where else all Imam's in Ismaili lineage after Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. and all Imam's before that were sons of proper/complete Muslima mother.

13. Molana Imam Ismail a.s. was born in Medina. Imam Ismail a.s is also known as an absolute Lord (az-azbab-i itlaq). He was born by the first wife of Imam Jafar Sadik a.s., named Fatima bint al-Hussain al-Athram bin al-Hasan bin Ali. Shahrastani (1076-1153) writes in Kitab al-milal wa’l nihal that during the lifetime of Fatima, Imam Jafar Sadik never got another marriage like Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.w. with Khadija and Mola Ali a.s. with Molatina Fatima a.s..

14. Hatim bin Imran bin Zuhra (d. 498/1104) writes in al-Usul wa’l Ahakam that, "Ismail was the most perfect, the most learned and the most excellent of the sons of Imam Jafar as-Sadik."

Hence, Ithna Asheri and Kothar both are exactly similar and they both have same modus operandi like 1/2/3 of Sunni = making their selfish and foolish personal whims and fancies as principles of Islam and labelling them as "Ra'i", "Qiyas" and "Ijtihad" or their word as word of Allah!

Dawoodi Bohra Ismailia Shia (Kothari are not Bohras, they are enemy of Bohras) are the only true and only correct Islam. Alhamdolillah.

LionHunter
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:51 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#4

Unread post by LionHunter » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:40 am

ok BJ tell me core bohra principle says IMAM or his DAI shud be present in order to stop chaos in people.

where are they?

where is your present DAI? who is he?

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#5

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:21 am

where is your present DAI? who is he?
BJ's Dai is Janab porus

Actually porus is "imam Zaman " in hiding

Question for porus and BJ

Did prophet always fasted 30 fast in Ramadan?

Lion Hunter what is your next avatar?

zinger
Posts: 1979
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#6

Unread post by zinger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:06 am

Muslim First wrote:
where is your present DAI? who is he?
BJ's Dai is Janab porus

Actually porus is "imam Zaman " in hiding

Question for porus and BJ

Did prophet always fasted 30 fast in Ramadan?

Lion Hunter what is your next avatar?

Good one, you caught him red-handed.

This last post of him gave away who he really was :lol:

LionHunter
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:51 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#7

Unread post by LionHunter » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Brother BJ,

I am waiting for reply.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#8

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:09 am

Lion hunter you have made a wise choice starting a new place with new faith...faith is something that can be practised in any sect. If you are content then so be it, don't look back and don't regret .

Khadhim Al Mahdi
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Choosing faith for my self !!!

#9

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:53 am

badrijanab wrote:In reference to matarial matters:
In Kothari Bohras, Kothar con their subject and extract money. They don't give accounts for money extracted.
In Ithna Asheri, the unauthorised Marja and Ayatullah extract money (20% on net income every year) from their subject. They don't give account for the money extracted. The money was collected for Imams - but they don't give to Imam and like Kothar they keep it with themselves.


In reference to spiritual matters:
1. Allah told Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. should you not declare 'nuss' (declaration of successor) over Mola Ali a.s. then it is akin to you not doing any job as Prophet. And when Prophet did it on 18th Zilhijj Hijri 10, Allah sent another aayat: Today the deen is complete. So the action of 'nuss' (successor declaration) is the most important action. Hasan Askari sahab died without making any 'nuss' over Mohammed!!!
This is so ignorant..you clearly haven't studied the concept of Imamah from all it's angles. If you did then you wouldn't make such statements. Furthermore, there are plenty of proofs contained within Shi'a & Sunni sources about the concept of 12 successors, the fact that the 12th will be Al-Mahdi. Early Shi'a sources also give many narrations of the Imamah of each Imam, starting with Imam Ali (as) and ending with Imam al-Mahdi (as).

The same cannot be said for the Bohra/Ismaili school of thought. You will not find any traditions in Sunni or Shi'a sources about the concept of 21 Imams or 100 successors. Even main bohra books like Da'im al-Islam contain nothing on the Wilayat of 21 Imams in the chapter of 'Walayat'.
2. Ithna Asheri says no one knows about the where about or anything related to their 12th Imam - then from where they got this news that he is still alive?!!!
Our Imam is in the state of occultation and by the will of Allah (swt), he will re-appear, just like the bohras also believe that an Imam is in pardah, but they don't know who he is till date.

You may watch the following to get more information on what is ghaybah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIeswC8fpMs
[/quote]
3. Like Kothar is not appointed by Ismaili Fatimi Imam, in same way all Ayatullah and Marja are unauthorised i.e. their 12th Imam has not appointed them!!!
According to the bohra belief system, it is obligatory to believe in the Da'i of the time (Da'i al-zaman) as he is considered to be the representative of the hidden Imam. Now tell me, who is your current Da'i? How can you know your Imam if you don't know whom your Da'i is?
4. Ithna Asheri believes in eating latrine and drinking toilet of their Imams. Imam Hasan a.s. was deceived to drink poison and likewise many other Imams too were deceived likewise... so logically (intelligent wise) their urine (till the day they die) will have effect of poison in it hence it is harmful for any human body.
How pathetic of you. Whoever taught you such nonsense is clearly a Jahil.
5. Ithna Aheri leaders to justify their lust have conned their subject to rape women (Mutaha) is halal in Islam and the irony is they say it is route to great blessings from Allah!!! Kothari leader Burhanuddin sahab too cruised Elizabeth Ship where naked/semi naked women serves alcohol.
Mut'a is a big topic and needs a detailed look at before people like you draw conclusions. Please go & read books on the subject.
6. Mohammed (Ithna Asheri's perceived 12th Imam) - who verified if he was really the real son of Hasan Askari? Abbasi Caliph who forged Ithna Asheri sect to counter and divide Shia's (rightful Ismaili's) and those vested interest (who eat 20% every year taxed to Ithna Asheri's) realized: Hasan Asakari died without any successor so let again plot by introducing a boy and will make him disappear so no one can question him... if boy opened mouth then his lies will be detected! No one at the burial of Hasan Askari have verified if the boy was really the authorised person! Now those vested interest floated a con: that only son of Imam can conduct last rituals of dead Imam. Catch is: Dyeing Imam Nakli, so his son is nakli. Prove from Nahjul Balagha if there is any such condition that previous Imam last rituals can be conducted only by his successor Imam?
Again, go read the books on this subject. You should know that due to the circumstances that Imam 'Askari (as) was in, it was very difficult for him to openly announce the successor! Even Bohras/Ismails acknowledge that Imam Ja'far [as] could not openly announce his successor due to the fear of the Abbasid Caliph. The mere fact that the Abbasids had our Imams in house arrest is proof to the fact that our Imams were upon truth because if they weren't upon truth, they would not have arrested them. Why would the Abbasid caliph, Al-Mamun (LA) order for House arrest of Imam 'Askari [as] in the first place? They knew that Al-Mahdi [as] would rise because even they acknowledged that the 12th Imam is close as the traditions concerning the 12 successors were becoming more apparent.

Since the eleventh Imam died without leaving an obvious son, most of his followers, who held that he had in fact left a successor, based their belief on traditions attributed to the preceding Imams concerning al-Qa’im al-Mahdi and his occultation. The following statements, some of which we have already had occasion to relate, are examples of these traditions: The world cannot be void of a Proof, either manifest and well-known, or hidden because of fear.

No one will become cognizant of his whereabouts and his affairs except his intimate partisans, who will look after his affairs. It is worth mentioning that this last tradition had also been recorded before the death of al-’Askari [as] in 260/874 by the Sevener Imamites, the Waqifa who had applied these traditions to the seventh Imam Musa al-Kazim [as]

Abu Sahl al-Nawbakhti reports that al-’Askari had intimate partisans who used to narrate traditions concerning Islamic law on his authority and were his deputies. When al-’Askari died in 260/874 all of them agreed that he had left a son who was the Imam. Al-Nawbakhti adds that they forbade their adherents to ask about his name or to reveal his existence to his foes, who were at that time trying to arrest him.

The ‘Abbasids'political pressure, which forced al-’Askari to hide the birth of his son from the ordinary Imamites, may also have led the Twelfth Imam to transmit different reports concerning the date of his birth, some of which took on a hagiographical form

The circumstances which accompanied the birth of al-’Askari's son suggest that al-’Askari wanted to save his successor from the restrictive policy of the ‘Abbasids, which had been established by al-­Ma’mun. Hence he did not circulate in public the news concerning the birth of his son, but only disclosed it to a few reliable followers, such as Abu Hashim al-Ja’fari, Ahmad b. Ishaq, and Hakima and Khadija, the aunts of al-’Askari.

Moreover he decided to move his son to a place safer than Samarra so that he could carry on his religious and political activities through the Wikala without suffering the interference of the ‘Abbasids.

Study of the hagiographical and historical anecdotes concerning the first occultation of the Imam and his reappearance reveals that al­‘Askari hid his son first in Samarra and then in Medina, where he lived under the guardianship of his paternal grandmother. According to al-Saduq, al-’Askari sent his son to an unknown place forty days after his birth, and then his son was brought back to his mother.

Read from this section onwards: http://www.al-islam.org/occultation-twe ... elfth-imam
7. Allama Tabahatabai of Ithna Asheri has contended that no Marja and Ayatullah can declare fatwa without referring to Usool-a-kaafi and this very book is the single most important and fully reliable for info on Hadees. But Baqir Majlisi contends that most of the Hadith in Usool-a-kaafi are forged and false like that in Bukhari and Muslim.
Please give us the full exact quotations of these scholars. Usool al-kafi is only ONE section of the book Al-Kafi.

If you have any basic knowledge of Sh'ia hadith then you should know that if a particular hadith is 'weak' (Da'eef) then it does not mean it isn't mu'tabar. If that hadith agrees with Qur'an & other ahadith then we accept it. If we don't know then there's room to look into it more.

The final authentication of hadith isn't only based on the sanad or Chain of narrators but rather it is the content. We look at the content of the hadith as the final parameter before accepting/rejecting.
8. Usuool-a-kaafi is the oldest and reliable book of hadith for Ithna Asheri's - know who are the 'raavees' - check their names! When Kulaini was begging and collecting Hadees; that era was approx 200 to 250 years after the episode of Karbala. Now in this long 200-250 years at least eight generations should have passed - Ithna Asheri falsely claim that unlike Bukhari and Muslim their Hadees collected by Kulaini are only from Shia's and not Sunni's. Will any Shia keep names of their ward on the names of enemies of Ahlul Bait who murdered Imam Hussain a.s., Imam Hasan a.s. and Mola Ali a.s.? NO, Never. Now check the names of 'sanad' chains of 'raavees' in Usool-a-kaafi: Mawiya, Yazeed, Marwaan, Usman, Shimr, etc - the inference is matter of common sense!
Two issues here:

1. Hadith collection - What utter garbage you've posted here. You seriously have no clue on how hadith collection began in Shi'a history. The Shi'a were infact the very first & foremost collectors of hadith during the times of the early Imams. Shaykh al-Kulayni was a scholar and he only collected ahadith and was also living in time of 10th, 11th & 12th Imams [as] and so of course his work was authenticated in that time.

You might want to read more on hadith collection: http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol1- ... nce-hadith

2. What do names have to do with anything? There were loyal companions at the time of Imam Ali (as) who were named Uthman, for e.g. Uthman Ibn Ma'zun and 'Umar bin hanzalah etc. You are ridiculous to say that those names were only the names of the enemies of ahlulbayt (as) at the time.

If you can prove to us that the specific companions of those names were enemies of the particular Imam(s) of their time then I would agree and say they are naasibi.

There was no 'stigma' associated with these names to begin with. It occurred much later, with the rise of unnecessary sectarianism. The Inclination to associate dishonour with those names began much later. Hence, why today those names are uncommon. The 'name' logic is flawed, it requires no attention. Here's a very brief list of Shīa narrators with these names, all of which are Thiqah (trustworthy) according to al-Khū’ī:

Yazīd
Yazīd b. Tha‘labah, Abu Khālid al-Qamāṭ (p. 13660).
Yazīd b. Ḥamād al-`Anbārī (p. 13680).
Yazīd b. Salīṭ (p. 13690).

Mu‘āwīyah
Mu’āwīyah b. ’Amār (p. 12461).
Mu’āwīyah b. Ḥakīm b. Mu’āwīyah (p. 12470).
Mu’āwīyah b. Wahab al-Bajlī (p. 12495).

‘Uthmān
‘Uthmān b. Ḥamād (p. 7586).
‘Uthmān b. Sa‘īd al al-‘Amrī (p. 7604).
‘Uthmān b ‘Īsā (p. 7623).

‘Umar/‘Amr
‘Umar b. Abān al-Kalbī (p. 8695.)
‘Umar b. Abī Shu‘abah (p. 8706).
‘Umar b. Abī Naṣr al-Sakūnī (p. 8850).
‘Umar b. Sālim (p. 8757).
‘Umar b. Muḥammad b. Yazīd (p. 8793).
Marwān
Marwān b. Muslim (p. 12258).

Ref: —al- Khū’ī, Mu‘jam rijāl al-ḥadīth wa-tafṣīl tabaqāt al-ruwāh. 5th ed.
9. Baqir Majlisi, Kulaini, Tirmizi, Shaharistani, and many other prominent Ithna Asheri all are unanimous about Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place originally has conferred 'nuss' over Imam Ismail a.s. - now to justify conning their subject they sinned against Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. - it is firm belief of Shia's (both Fatimi's and Ithna Asheri) that Imam cannot err; he is flawless - Ithna Asheri sin by contending that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. has made mistake in conferring 'nuss' and later changed it from Imam Ismail a.s. to Hazrat Musa Kazim!!!
Please post full narration with chain of narrators please in the original Arabic. If you cannot post the riwayat then the lie is upon you and ultimately you will have lied against Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq [as].

9.B. Further to above point #9, in Usool-a-Kaafi their is tradition which says after Imam Hasan a.s. and Imam Hussain a.s. the Imamat will never ever be conferred with over two siblings/brother. As Imam Ismail a.s. was originally conferred 'nuss' as agreed by all prominent Ithna Asheri, and as Musa Kazim was younger brother of Imam Ismail a.s. - so as per Ithna Asheri own book - forged appointment of Musa Kazim as Imam is null and void.
Isma'il was never an 'Imam' to begin with. All prominent historians have recorded that he did indeed die during the lifetime of his father including:

- Ibn Hazm in Jamharat ansabi 'l-‘Arab, p.59
- Ibn Khaldun, vol.4, p.30
- al- Khazraji, Khulasat tahdhibi 'l-kamal, p.33 who has added that "He died in childhood" and if this conclusion is erroneous, we shall prove it
- Nashwan al-Himyari, al-Huru 'l-‘in, p.162
- Abu 'l-Hasan al-Ash‘ari, Maqalatu 'l-Islamiyyin, vol.1, p.99.
- ‘Abdu 'l-Qahir al-Baghdadi, ar- Ras‘aniyy and al-Isfarayini (al-Farq bayna 'l-firaq, p.63; ar-Ras‘aniyy's Mukhtasar of al-Firaq, p.58; at-Tabsir fi'd-din, p.41)
- Dr. Farhad Daftary, The Ismailis their history and doctrines, p. 97

According to some Ismaili authors, Ismail survived Imam al-Sadiq (as). However, the majority of sources report that he predeceased his father in Medina, and was buried in Baqi cemetery. Hasan b. Nuh al-Bharuchi, an Indian Ismaili author, relates visiting Ismail’s grave in Medina in 904 H/1498 AD.
(Farhad Daftary: The Ismailis; their history & doctrines, pg. 97)

Ismail was popular among the radical Shias and was closely associated with them. Imam al-Sadiq (as) did not approve of these radical Shias who were leading his son astray. (Ibid, pg. 98)

According to another report, Ismail was evidently involved in a militant anti-regime plot in collaboration with several others, including Bassam b. Abd Allah al-Sayrafi, another extremist Shia. This is one of the occasions reported by the Imami sources, during which al-Sadiq expressed his strong disapproval of Ismail’s activities. (Not exact quotation).

Some of the Ismailis claim that Ismail had not died, but rather gone into Ghaibat (occultation) – this belief cannot be true because this is a known fact in history that Imam al-Sadiq (as) led the funeral prayers of Ismail when he died. However, some of the Ismailis accepted his death, and therefore claim that his eldest son, Muhammed Ibn Ismail, was the Imam after Ismail. This also does not make sense because if Ismail had died during the lifetime of Imam al-Sadiq (as), and hence was not an Imam, then how can his son Muhammed Ibn Ismail become an Imam

Furthermore, it isn't mentioned in anywhere in any Ismaili books that imam Ja'far Sadiq (as) ever appointed Isma'il as his successor. Even your own so-called 'Shaykh' hassanali sarangpurwala mentions in 'Imam e Ismail' that Ismail was appointed successor by Imam Sadiq (as) but provided no narrations or references to prove his point.

Let us assume that Ismail was appointed as successor, however, as per historical facts..Ismai'l died while Imam Sadiq (as) was still alive and as-Sadiq (as) was the Imam of the time. This means Isma'il was not an Imam when he died!! Then why do the Ismailis take him as an Imam!? Why do the Ismailis automatically assume that Muhammad ibn Ismail was the successor of Imam al-Sadiq (as)?

- If Ismail was an Imam, then why don’t the Ismailis have much information regarding him? The Ismaili books, such as ‘Uyun al- Akhbar’, contain little information regarding him

- Ismail was popular among the radical Shias and was closely associated with them. Imam al-Sadiq (as) did not approve of these radical Shias who were leading his son astray. A person who is meant to be an Imam should have impeccable qualities. Ismail was closely associated with the radical shias, who were not approved by Imam al-Sadiq (as), why?

- Ismail was evidently involved in a militant anti-regime plot in collaboration with several others, including Bassam b. Abd Allah al-Sayrafi, another extremist Shia. Imam al-Sadiq (as) expressed his strong disapproval of Ismail’s activities. How can it be possible that Imam al-Sadiq (as) would appoint such a son as his successor?

- A successor is one who succeeds, but Ismail died before his father and did not succeed Imam al-Sadiq (as). How can he be a successor then?

- There are no thought provoking sayings of Ismail ibn Jafar found in the scrolls of history, why?
10. Imamat is core to Shia - In entire book of Usool-a-kafi the oldest and most reliable Hadith book of Ithna Asheri - their is NO chapter on Imamat!!! Where else for Fatimi Dawat (Kothar are not part of Fatimi Dawat they are same like Sathya Sai Baba who fool common person and pocket money from them) in their core book "Daimul Islam" the first chapter itself is on Walayat and Imamat, the "Walayat" is considered as the pillar of Islam by Ismailis indeed.
Another nonsensical lie. There is a whole section dedicated to Imamah & Wilayah in Al-kafi. It is called Kitab al-hujjah. Furthermore, your whole fatimi Dawat book Da'im al-Islam is actually based on Shi'a books..including al-kafi!!

Infact according to Wilfred Madelung....

Al-Numan used books written by Shias/Imamiyyah and others as the source for his work (hadeeth book). This approach of extracting tradition of Imams of Ahl al Bayt from books is different from the common practice of that time. The usual practice back then was to trace narrations from a person to another person (who heard it/wrote it down) until to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt who heard it from the Holy Prophet (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his pure family) or Imam Ali (may peace be upon him) (who heard it from the Holy Prophet).

Qadi al-Nu’man only quotes traditions from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (may peace be upon him) and Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may peace be upon him). The Shias and Ismailis recognize both of the Imams as their own. Al-Nu’man does not, however, quote from Imam Musa al-Kadhim (may peace be upon him) (who is not recognized by the Ismailis

Madelung also reveled an interesting fact about the hadeeths collected by the Qadi. Qadi al-Nu’man has not referred/quoted even a single author or scholar from the Holy City of Qum (back then and is still now, one of the Shia center for learning).
A great majority of authors sourced by Qadi al-Nu’man are Iraqis (Baghdad, Basra or Kufa), Egyptians or from Medina.

Medelung then proceed to answer his own question
“Did al-Nu’man intentionally repudiate the school of Qumm? This is not unlikely, though it is also possible that the choice of his sources was rather dictated by their availability in the Maghrib.

Quite revealing, Madelung emphatically stated that Qadi al-Nu’man did not even quote any traditions from other living Fatimid Imams/Calips (By the way, Qadi al-Nu’man was under the employment of four Fatimid Caliphs/Imams).

But even more revealing is the fact that Qadi al-Nu’man used works by authors who were non Shia Imami or Ismaili in his compilation. The traditions in these works are not from Imams of Ahl al-Bayt but rather from Zaydis (another Islamic sect)!!

- 'The Sources of Ismāīlī Law, The University of Chicago Press, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Jan., 1976), pp. 29-40'

11. Ithna Asheri agrees to following Hadees of Prophet s.a.w.w.: Mohammed and Ali are the father and mother of mumineen and Ali is superior to his sons. To complete the count of "twelve" Ithna Aheri have sinned against Mola Ali a.s. like they sinned against Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. - they pulled down Mola Ali a.s. from post of 'Wali' to post of 'Imam' and made Mola Ali a.s. same in status like that of other Imam's!!!
Maula ali (as) is 'Wasi', 'Wali' and also 'Imam'! Holy Prophet (saws) said: Whoever dies without knowing Imam of his time dies death of Jahiliyyah! So after Holy Prophet (saws) must be an Imam!

In sermon of ghadeer, rasoolallah (saws) said many times that Ali is the Imam etc. But we believe that Ali (as) is the highest of all the 'Imams'.

Your own agha khani Ismaili friends also believe Ali (as) as 'imam' so why don't you?!
12. All six Imam's of Ithna Asheri after Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. are son's of bond-maid (slave women) either purchased from market or won in war (these all are aboriginally non-Muslima i.e. why they are sold in market or distributed as war booty). Where else all Imam's in Ismaili lineage after Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. and all Imam's before that were sons of proper/complete Muslima mother.
This totally disgusting written by an enemy of ahlebait (as). You have stooped to the lowest of lows! So based on this logic..if Imam musa kadhim (as) was born to a wife of Imam Sadiq (as) then you Ismailis would have accepted Musa al-Kadhim (as) as Imam?

Plus what is wrong in the Imams being born to slave girls?? How can you say they are not Muslim and lower in rank??

Nabi Ibrahim (As) son Nabi Ismail (as) was the son of Hajara (sa), who was also a slave girl of Nabi Ibrahim! Our Holy Prophet (sawa) was from the progeny of Nabi Ismail (as), which means the great grandmother of the Holy Prophet (sawa) was a slave girl!

In fact, one of the main reasons why the Jews and Christians did not accept the Holy Prophet (sawa) was because he (sawa) was from the progeny of Nabi Ismail, who was born to a slave girl! The Jews and Christians saw the signs of Prophethood in the Holy Prophet (sawa), but still rejected him just because he
was from the progeny of Nabi Ismail, who was born to a slave girl.

So now you tell me..what is the difference between Ismailis and Yahudis/Nasaras!?? Wasn’t Hajara (sa), the Prophet Abraham’s wife, a bondwoman? Did she not bear Ismail (Ishmael) (as), of whom the Prophet Muhammad (sawa) is a direct descendant? If it is acceptable for the Prophet Muhammad (sawa), the Seal of Prophethood, to be a descendant of Ismail (as) who was born to a bondwoman, then why should it be shameful for Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as)?
13. Molana Imam Ismail a.s. was born in Medina. Imam Ismail a.s is also known as an absolute Lord (az-azbab-i itlaq). He was born by the first wife of Imam Jafar Sadik a.s., named Fatima bint al-Hussain al-Athram bin al-Hasan bin Ali. Shahrastani (1076-1153) writes in Kitab al-milal wa’l nihal that during the lifetime of Fatima, Imam Jafar Sadik never got another marriage like Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.w. with Khadija and Mola Ali a.s. with Molatina Fatima a.s..
So What? Abdullah al-aftah was also born to Fatimah (as) along with Isma'il. Can you also put the full quotation instead of your own interpreted man-made one. Bibi Hamidah khatun (as) was also known for her great wisdom and piety, then she bore the great Imam Musa al-kadhim (as).
14. Hatim bin Imran bin Zuhra (d. 498/1104) writes in al-Usul wa’l Ahakam that, "Ismail was the most perfect, the most learned and the most excellent of the sons of Imam Jafar as-Sadik."
According to the evidence above..he clearly wasn't! If we look at his life and history..
Hence, Ithna Asheri and Kothar both are exactly similar and they both have same modus operandi like 1/2/3 of Sunni = making their selfish and foolish personal whims and fancies as principles of Islam and labelling them as "Ra'i", "Qiyas" and "Ijtihad" or their word as word of Allah!
Hence Ismailis/Bohras are both totally lost today and claim all sort of nonsense things.