How did angels know man would be corrupt?

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porus
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How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#1

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:17 pm

When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.”[2:30]

Why would God want to put a vicegerent on earth? God does not answer. But He tells angels that He knows the reason but He was not going to tell them. But angels knew that the vicegerent would cause corruption. How did the angels know?

God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?

seeker110
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#2

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:51 am

No wonder Dai is so close to Him, besides these questions are discused in Taweel.

Freedom to choose would be the reason. Angels do not have that power. So they cannot do any mischief.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#3

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:50 am

God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?
They are man made vicegerents without any Quranic or Prophetic senction.

Phony vicegerents do not fly. It is their dumb Murids who make them fly.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#4

Unread post by alwan » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:15 am

porus wrote:When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.”[2:30]

Why would God want to put a vicegerent on earth? God does not answer. But He tells angels that He knows the reason but He was not going to tell them. But angels knew that the vicegerent would cause corruption. How did the angels know?

God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?

1. Angles knew because maybe Allah told them about the human nature of free will.
2. Or Angles knew from the history. There (on earth) existed previous cycles of life.

There is are traditions quoted from Imam Sadiq:

"Perhaps you think God has not created a humanity other than you. No! I swear to God that He has created thousands upon thousands of mankinds and you are the last among them."

"Like this world there are 70,000 other planets with each of their peoples believing they are alone in the universe."

"I cannot say that there are human beings in other worlds, but I can say that there are living beings, whom we cannot see because of the great distance between us."

-Bihar al Anwar, vol 14, p 79



"Before this Adam, there were a thousand thousand Adams." By Imam Jafar Sadiq

-Bihar Al Anwar, Volume 2, Part 2

Note: Bihar Al Anwar is collection of traditions compiled by a Twelver scholar

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#5

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:10 am

"These are God’s Verses which We recite to you in truth. In which message, after God and His revelations, will they believe?"[45:6]

Let us not indulge in speculations, even if they are from the great Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. Does Quran hint at any reason why Allah would want to create humans? Whether humans existed in previous cycles before Adam was created is not mentioned in the Quran.

However, Allah had already created creatures with free will. They are the Jinns. Iblis exercised his free will by not obeying Allah. So, even with free will, Iblis and his followers did not spread corruption in heaven. At least there is no mention of that in the Quran, I believe.

I have looked at 'answers' suggested by other religions/metaphysics. They all leave you hanging with no clear resolution. It is not a discussion with any great effect on day-to-day lives of people like the discussion on hadiths. It is a question for those inclined to ponder over 'purpose of life'.

If you are at that stage of life where this question becomes important for you, I would welcome your input.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:23 am

Does Quran hint at any reason why Allah would want to create humans?
Actually, it does. Quite clearly I might add - And I have not created the jinn and men to any end other than that they may worship Me. وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

The Quran is also quite clear that there are ayahs which are not clear. Some of these ayah might not become clear till the day of judgment. Ponder over these, sure, but the reason the devil causes the people to ponder over these ayahs is to create doubts in their minds. If Allah has chosen not to explain to us why the angels had this knowledge, then that is it. The devil however wants you to think Why? Why would Allah do this. Is he hiding something? Did he make a mistake? If the Quran had been from God, would there have been such a glaring omission?

You know, the Quran is a brilliant piece of work. It warns us about this before hand and yet we all fall into this trap.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#7

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:36 am

anajmi wrote:
Does Quran hint at any reason why Allah would want to create humans?
Actually, it does. Quite clearly I might add - And I have not created the jinn and men to any end other than that they may worship Me. وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
A clear example of God indulging in "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy. :)

So God decided that He wants some beings to worship Him, as if angels were not enough for Him. So He created those creatures, jinns and humans, who would deliberately defy Him and then punish them for their behavior.

No, there must be more to it than that.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:07 pm

I am sure there is more to it than that. And when you find out, let us know.
So God decided that He wants some beings to worship Him, as if angels were not enough for Him. So He created those creatures, jinns and humans, who would deliberately defy Him and then punish them for their behavior.
Well, it is the same with any parent deciding to have a child (and then a second and then a third and even a dozen in some cases) to give them joy and then punishing them for their behavior when it is not in line. I am sure you were slapped around by your Mom when you were little!! And everyone of us knows, through experience of others, the pain it is to raise a child. But we all do it nonetheless!!

The reason for that is that the joy we receive far outweighs the pain we have to suffer. It is the same with those who obey Allah and those who choose to be disobedient. The joy from the obedient will far outweigh the pain from the disobedient.

proster procter ergo fergo be damned!!

seeker110
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#9

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:23 pm

I find Google more helpful in my daily life, by the way Quran is also in there. Why is it so that few understand the holy book. My cousin brother is a heavy weight in understanding Quran, once we were discussing some thing and he pointed out that I should look for LEHJA now things became more obscure. If all I have is some heavy tools, except a hammer, than everything becomes a hammer.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:40 pm

You should sometime try and add value to a discussion. You have a head which is heavy too, try using that as a hammer!! Oh sorry, maybe your head isn't one of the tools that you use. :wink:

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#11

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:49 pm

Was God so lacking in 'joy' that He created humans? Actually, I thought He is self-sufficient in all entities, material or abstract.

However, let us not dismiss the idea. Ancient Greeks had much the same idea. Zeus decided to create humans as playthings for his family of lesser gods. Zeus would throw obstacles against his chosen humans and let lesser gods devise strategies to rescue their favorites by giving them extra-ordinary powers and showing them how to beat Zeus at his own game. Zeus and his entire family were much joyed by this game. Sometimes they would empathize with humans but Zeus was always there to remind them that it is only a game. Human suffering is just as much a spectacle to be enjoyed as their victories.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:03 pm

Just because I don't need something, doesn't mean I do not want it. God doesn't need our prayers, yet he commands us to pray regularly. And he clarifies that it is for our own good. God's joy translates to a better jannah for us. There is a reason why Zeus is a part of "ancient" greek "mythology". You won't find anyone worshipping Zeus anymore except in Hollywood.

When you look at the similarities, you should also look at the differences as well. It might benefit you.

Humsafar
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#13

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:29 pm

anajmi wrote:The Quran is also quite clear that there are ayahs which are not clear. Some of these ayah might not become clear till the day of judgment. Ponder over these, sure, but the reason the devil causes the people to ponder over these ayahs is to create doubts in their minds. If Allah has chosen not to explain to us why the angels had this knowledge, then that is it. The devil however wants you to think Why? Why would Allah do this. Is he hiding something? Did he make a mistake? If the Quran had been from God, would there have been such a glaring omission?
This argument is as old as the traditionalists of early Islam when they shut out all discussion and reasoning - saying that the Quran, sunna and hadith had all the answers humans will ever need. They declared finality of this trinity and rejected reason and free will for humans. This despite the Qruan repeatedly urging believers to think, to reason, to use their intellect. These traditionalists are the reason whey Islam regressed from being an enlightened, progressive and tolerant religion to being a closed, backward and intolerant creed. Today's Wahabis are true inheritors of this fundamentalist mindset and are doing a great job shutting out reason all over again. Whoever supports the view that we should not wonder and ponder over things that Allah has not chosen to inform us on must feel odd to enjoy the fruits of human knowledge - for they must know that without wondering and pondering none of this would have been possible. Allah reveals his secrets through human reason and insight.
As to why Allah created humans, I don't know. But to pose the question within the Islamic context is to immediately limit the possibilities, to confine it to one particular narrative and thus limit the answers. If you open up the question then the possibilities are endless. I'm particularly partial to the ancient Indian concept of Maya and Leela: The world is an illusion and life is play. In other words we're are all playthings for the entertainment of the Gods. The great Bard also said something similar: the world is a stage and we are mere actors. But the tragedy is that we make such a heavy production of it. :)

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Actually, the Quran has two kinds of ayahs. Try pondering over clear ayahs before you start pondering over those that you are not qualified to ponder over. You rejected the Quran long before any Wahhabi came along to prevent you from pondering over it. Ponder all you want. Let me know when the pondering bears any fruit for you!!
I'm particularly partial to the ancient Indian concept of Maya and Leela:
Let me know the pondering over which ayah led you to this conclusion.

By the way, the irony is that, I have been able to argue with porus, you, Adam and everyone else on this forum, only after a whole lot of pondering over the ayahs of the Quran. Go figure!!

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:05 pm

Not sure if you remember, but it was porus who has suggested on this forum multiple times, that after the passing of prophet Muhammad (saw) it is no longer possible to understand the true meaning of the Quran. No one has access to the true Quran as per him. So, ponder all you want. It's going to be of no use according to him!!

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Whoever supports the view that we should not wonder and ponder over things that Allah has not chosen to inform us on must feel odd to enjoy the fruits of human knowledge - for they must know that without wondering and pondering none of this would have been possible. Allah reveals his secrets through human reason and insight.
This is comical. People should think twice before posting. According to you, the microwave was probably created after someone decided to ponder over why angels knew before hand that man would cause corruption on earth. :wink:

seeker110
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#17

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:33 pm

Khuda is ganjay ko nakhoun kiyoun deye. When ugliness was distributed the wahabiees were in front. Have you seen their pictures. Good looking people see God differently.

Bazecha e itfal hai dunya mere agai
hota hai shabo roz tamasha meri agae.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:46 pm

Your frustration is understandable. Sometimes, when people cannot think of anything to say, they say anything that they can think of. With you, that happens quite a lot.

Remember the "Lord of the Rings" movies? Everytime you people cry Wahhabi you remind me of that weird guy repeating "Gollum, Gollum". :wink:

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:36 pm

As to why Allah created humans, I don't know.
And why is that? Haven't you pondered over the ayah of the Quran that I posted earlier? I guess it was the Wahhabi's fault eh?

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#20

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:17 am

Muslim First wrote:
God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?
They are man made vicegerents without any Quranic or Prophetic senction.

Phony vicegerents do not fly. It is their dumb Murids who make them fly.
Well there are God-made vicegerents and, I agree with you, there are also man-made vicegerents. Ponder over this:

"It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth, and raised some of you in ranks over others, in order to test you through what He has given you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful." [6:165]

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#21

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:44 am

Well there are God-made vicegerents
And who is he or who are they?

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#22

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:52 am

"It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth, and raised some of you in ranks over others, in order to test you through what He has given you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful." [6:165]
It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth
He is all mighty and you is, you who worship him as per Quran and Sunnah.

raised some of you in ranks over others
This could be pious leaders, scholars etc. recognized for their piety?

SBM
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#23

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:42 am

Muslim First wrote:
"It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth, and raised some of you in ranks over others, in order to test you through what He has given you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful." [6:165]
It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth
He is all mighty and you is, you who worship him as per Quran and Sunnah.

raised some of you in ranks over others
This could be pious leaders, scholars etc. recognized for their piety
And who defines Pious leaders, for some Osama Bin Laden was a pious leader and for some kothari Goons are pious leader Again it is in eyes of the beholder (do not need to discuss the past leaders, we need current leadership)
Are there any qualifying points about finding and defining a Pious leaders and their piety.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#24

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:24 am

porus wrote:
anajmi wrote: Actually, it does. Quite clearly I might add - And I have not created the jinn and men to any end other than that they may worship Me. وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
A clear example of God indulging in "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy. :)

So God decided that He wants some beings to worship Him, as if angels were not enough for Him. So He created those creatures, jinns and humans, who would deliberately defy Him and then punish them for their behavior.

No, there must be more to it than that.
there could be more than that or maybe not

angles were not created with free will hence when they are commanded by the God to praise Him, they will certainly do so.
But Jinns and Humans were created with free will hence when they are commanded by the God to praise Him, they may or may not praise Him. and those (humans and jinns) who do praise Him, are higher in status than angles because jinns and humans had a choice while angles did not.

SBM
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#25

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:03 am

Dard E Dill ke wastey peda kiya Insaan Ko
Warna Taat key liye kuch kum naa they Karru Biyan

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:30 pm

"It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth, and raised some of you in ranks over others, in order to test you through what He has given you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful." [6:165]
It is clear from this ayah that even those who are raised in ranks would be tested through what has been given to them. So we could say that Saddam Hussein was raised in rank and tested and he miserably failed the test. Pretty much every muslim leader of today falls into the "failed" category. By the way if you look closely at this ayah, every single one of us is a vicegerent on earth. Some of us raised higher in rank than others.

Conscíous
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#27

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:38 pm

porus wrote: "It is He who made you vicegerents on the earth, and raised some of you in ranks over others, in order to test you through what He has given you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful." [6:165]
It is He who made you vicegerents (that person can be anyone/you or I.. It all depends on one's perspective) on the earth and raised some of you in ranks (Not worldly ranks like president/general/Imam/pope but how one/anyone perceive him/herself) over others, in orden to test you through what He has given (skills/knowledge/craftsmanship) you. Your Lord is Quick in retribution, and He is Forgiving and Merciful."

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#28

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:08 pm

porus wrote:When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.”[2:30]

Why would God want to put a vicegerent on earth? God does not answer. But He tells angels that He knows the reason but He was not going to tell them. But angels knew that the vicegerent would cause corruption. How did the angels know?

God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?
talking about angles not having free will.
In 2:3, the angles did dare to question the God about His decision to set a viceroy on earth.
The angles seemed surprised and disappointed in the God's decision and they thought the God's decision was not so good.

but that still doesn't answer as to how did they know a viceroy on earth will be corrupt.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#29

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:39 pm

alwan wrote: talking about angles not having free will.
In 2:3, the angles did dare to question the God about His decision to set a viceroy on earth.
The angles seemed surprised and disappointed in the God's decision and they thought the God's decision was not so good.

but that still doesn't answer as to how did they know a viceroy on earth will be corrupt.
This is one of those questions which must be consigned to 'ilmul ghayb' for which God chooses to withhold answers. So, despite misgivings, I must attempt to speculate. This is how it could have happened.

God creates the universe which He sustains it well pleased with Himself. Then, God creates angels from light, a rarefied form of energy. Angels worship God all the time. God got bored with that. So he created jinns from fire (heat), a denser form of energy, which bred in them susceptibility to rebellion but none for remorse. Jinns quickly became jealous of angels and dwelt in eternal inferiority complex.

God quickly got bored with that. He wanted something more challenging. So He assembled all the angels and jinns and told them that he would create man, a creature from an even denser form of energy which would give him a greater susceptibility for rebellion and cause chaos and corruption. That is how the angels knew that man would be corrupt.

When angels complained about the wisdom of creating such a creature God tells them, "Bear with me. You have no idea what is about to happen. I know things that you could not even imagine!" What did God withhold from angels? That man would be created with intellect and conscience; and an innate sense of responsibility to act on intellect and conscience. Better than both angels and jinns!

When Adam was paraded in front of angels and jinns they were awe-struck by his intellect and, with a little prompting from God, they all prostrated to God for such a magnificent achievement. (Quran says they prostrated to Adam but I think they prostrated to God.) Iblis, one of the jinns, could not contain his rebellious nature and inferiority complex. Iblis remembered that God had said that man would be corruptible. So, after having been banished, he decided to take full advantage of human corruptibility to thwart God's plan. And what was God's plan?

God's plan is to let Iblis loose on the planet to corrupt humans. God comes to man's aid by guiding him through messengers, with promise of a return to paradise if he successfully navigates against Iblis. However, God makes the navigation very complex by making sure Iblis puts as many temptations against His guidance as possible. Man's joy and sorrow ultimately become his responsibility but both emotions are a good pointer to whether he is on divine guidance or not.

So, the answer to the question "How angels knew?" is that God told them. But He did not reveal to them his intellect (aql) or his conscience (zameer), a sense of right and wrong, his morality, if you will. He also did not tell them of His guidance and His mercy which this corrupt creature would be able to take advantage of.

This hints at purpose of life for a human. It is to get back to paradise, and not to hell. And for how to do that, there is guidance from God

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#30

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:11 pm

porus wrote:

When Adam was paraded in front of angels and jinns they were awe-struck by his intellect and, with a little prompting from God, they all prostrated to God for such a magnificent achievement. (Quran says they prostrated to Adam but I think they prostrated to God.)
though not relevant to the topic, but i am curious to know why do you think "they all prostrated to God instead of Adam".

if God's command was to prostrate to Him and not to Adam, then surely Iblis would not have have objected it.