How did angels know man would be corrupt?

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anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#91

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:35 am

Infallibility is in both spiritual and worldly matters as far as Panjatan are concerned. No matter what the issue, spiritual or worldly, they always acted in accordance with Allah's will.
There is a famous story about how the prophet (saw) went to Taif to spread the word of Allah and how he was mistreated by the people of Taif. He had been stoned by the kids of Taif. He goes out of the town and Allah's angels approach the prophet (saw) with Allah's command to destroy the town of Taif. The prophet (saw) prays to Allah to forgive them as even if they do not believe, their children might believe.

Over here, what was the will of Allah? To destroy the town? No, because the town wasn't destroyed? What then? Was Allah testing the prophet (saw)? Why? Didn't porus just prove that the prophet (saw) was infallible? Didn't Allah know that the prophet (saw) is infallible?

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#92

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:38 am

Now, here is the circularity in porus' argument. He has claimed before on this forum that if the prophet (saw) is not infallible, then the Quran cannot be considered pure.
Infallibility of Prophets
http://islamqa.info/en/42216

THE DOCTRINE OF INFALLIBILITY IN THE ISMA'ILI TRADITION
By: Asgard Ali Engineer
http://ismaili.net/Source/0376a.html

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#93

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:47 am

porus wrote:Wahhabis, here represented by anajmi and Muslim First, do not believe that anyone, including Prophets, is infallible. All references to Websites provided by Wahhabis which support this view are Wahhabi sites.

Sunnis believe that all Prophets are infallible.

Shias believe that all the Prophets and Imams after Prophet Muhammad are infallible.

My view is that the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain are infallibles. It is a view I have concluded from my reading of the Quran. Quran is considered infallible by all Muslims.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#94

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:50 am

Thank you. That is precisely the reason why I gave pretty clear examples of the issues with your reading of the Quran.

badrijanab
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#95

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:39 am

porus wrote:
porus wrote:Wahhabis, here represented by anajmi and Muslim First, do not believe that anyone, including Prophets, is infallible. All references to Websites provided by Wahhabis which support this view are Wahhabi sites.

Sunnis believe that all Prophets are infallible.

Shias believe that all the Prophets and Imams after Prophet Muhammad are infallible.

My view is that the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain are infallibles. It is a view I have concluded from my reading of the Quran. Quran is considered infallible by all Muslims.

Porus bhai can you kindly cite the source which says: Sunnis believe that all Prophets are infallible?

Curious001
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#96

Unread post by Curious001 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:55 pm

Thank you for the information, really useful...and further adds to my confusion.

Pardon my interruption, but as I read through all these classification rules, one could easily see a statistically significant several areas where a little omission (real or malicious), missing or dead persons, inclination of the reporter to the reported material,etc can take place..... there is no way in this earth that such a chain could continue uninterrupted...it's not humanly possible! Especially when we need to factor in the living conditions in those days.

The major criticism Muslims have about Christians is precisely the same as Christians can level on Bukhari, Muslim, etc. It's a story by someone, who heard it first hand(whether that matters at that point is highly suspect), who heard it from someone else, who heard it from 100-200 years ago...really?!

If you were to believe a biography about me (if I'm that interesting a subject LOL!) which source would you believe:
1. My family??-my personal choice-IMHO
2. My friends??
3. A professional writer who got clippings from newspapers, Google, LinkedIn, Facebook, my high school friends and my varsity swim team, my teachers??

I'm trying to understand why any source this many years away can be 100% trustworthy, when a simple experiment done a few years ago can point out the absolute fallacy about "authenticity" of human memory. Basically, ALL human memory that is subjective is completely biased by our perceptions.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#97

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:05 pm

Curious,

For some people, it works. For some it doesn't. There is nothing more to it. Remember, during the time of the prophet (saw) there was first hand information available to people all around him. Even then he wasn't able to convince them all. God tells the prophet (saw) in the Quran that his job is just to deliver the message. He is not to worry if people believe in the message or not. If you are not convinced, then you are not convinced. No one can do anything about it unless Allah himself decides to change your condition.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#98

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:26 pm

Sunnah & Hadith recorded during time of the Prophet (S.A.W) & during time of Sahabah (companions)

The following are just some examples and not everything that was recording during that time.

Read here
http://learndeen.wordpress.com/2007/08/ ... ompanions/

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#99

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:58 pm


Curious001
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#100

Unread post by Curious001 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:47 pm

Thanks again, Muslim First, and Anajmi,

I do understand the logic behind saying believe it or not. There are lots of issues as an outsider that I see. As a former Catholic at college there was a constant friendly banter about the authenticity of Muslim sources vs. Christian sources. Now, I'm reading more about the authenticity of Bukhari/Muslim/Muawwiyah/Horairah, and Ali and the Imams. As someone looking outside-in, it is rather strange that Ali and his family is quoted far fewer times than others when, in fact, he was the closest to the Prophet....being his family? I mean if Christ had a brother who narrated his story, I would believe him over Simon Peter, right? Jews have plenty of "hadiths" from Aaron, Moses' brother, and yet so few hadiths about Ali? Who grew up in the Prophets household? Married his daughter? Fought in every war, bar one? Was present for every revelation? Complied the Quran? Kind of sounds suspicious, don't you think?

What's my point here? Fabrication, half-truths, and interpretations of "authentic" sources has happened over and over. As a doctor, I constantly read publications that end up getting redacted because of fake data...and this is happening after a "thorough" review process in this technological day and age! To say that one would believe an author who has obvious biases to the source material is being disingenuous at best, and completely myopic at worst!

Let me give you an example of human memory fallacy. I had an elderly patient who used snuff---you know, tobacco, in Atlanta. In his late 70s he had a myriad of issues mostly related to his snuffing (which I don't need to tell you all that tobacco is just bad all around). When I ask him how often did/does he use this? The answer was never predictable....sure as you age you are bound to lose your memory, but he was in good mental state.....and this happens for many of my patients whatever age they are. That is why we docs always ask a next of kin to verify this information. If you can't recall something as basic as what you consume, how much, and how often..........

Now, as a disclaimer, as I have mentioned previously, my belief about religion would put me in a camp of "skeptics" for ALL religions. Do I believe Christ walked on water? Do I believe Christ raised believers from the dead? I grew up being taught about this, but my rational scientific logic tells me this is not humanly possible...ever! What is possible is that Christ was a magical person who changed the way we think about ourselves and our surroundings, much like Rev Martin Luther King Jr. did for the civil rights. That is a huge miracle itself...why do we need to fabricate other superhuman capabilities on top of all this?


anajmi wrote:Curious,

For some people, it works. For some it doesn't. There is nothing more to it. Remember, during the time of the prophet (saw) there was first hand information available to people all around him. Even then he wasn't able to convince them all. God tells the prophet (saw) in the Quran that his job is just to deliver the message. He is not to worry if people believe in the message or not. If you are not convinced, then you are not convinced. No one can do anything about it unless Allah himself decides to change your condition.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#101

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:13 pm

Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the fourth Khalifa in one of his speeches said, "I urge all those who have writings taken from the Messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed the hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord." (Sunan Al-Daramy)
It is quite possible this was the reason Hz Ali did not write his own journal of Hadiths!

Allah knows best

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#102

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:50 pm

Curious001,

Maybe you were chosen for bigger things like finding a solution for hunger, poverty, sickness, disease etc. You shouldn't be wasting your time arguing trivialities.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#103

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:59 pm

This question about how angels knew man would be corrupt got asked in a Tafseer session that I was attending in our local mosque. For a second I thought it was porus asking the question. But then decided it couldn't be. The answer given was much simpler and better than the "God got bored" theory.

If we consider "vicegerent" to be an appropriate translation of "khalifa", then a vicegerent is
1. a person exercising delegated power on behalf of a sovereign or ruler.
2. a person regarded as an earthly representative of God or a god, esp. the pope.

Now, if we are to assume that the angels and the jinns weren't dumb as some people would have us believe, we can assume that the angels figured that with power come the trappings of power. Some might use it for good and some might use it for bad. Angels assumed that if someone is given power, he might misuse it. Hence the question.

Remember, this isn't the right answer as we do not know the right answer. This is just better than the other one.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#104

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:43 pm

Actually, there were eons of time before man was even a twinkle in God's mind. He says so Himself in 76:1.

That means that while He was pleased with Himself for having created the Universe of lifeless things, He quickly got bored. He then created boring beings like angels and jinns to worship Him so that they would remind Him of how clever He was for creating the Universe.

Eventually, after eons of time (76:1), He realized how boring these beings were and, to relieve His boredom He created man not to worship Him like the angels and jinns but to try him out (76:2).

Later, when man could not figure out what to do, He sent them Guidance (76:3) to sort out the good guys from bad. He said to man "Follow my guidance. It is for that that I have created you." But man, being as perverse as he is, persisted in his wrong-doings except a few of his kind. For this perverse majority, He has prepared chains, yokes and a blazing fire (76:4).

At least one thing is certain. With His latest creation, man, God is unlikely to get bored again for many more eons.

And that is the whole Truth. Promise! :)

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#105

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:58 pm

It looks like you consulted badrijanab for this whole truth. That is probably why it took you a whole two days and more to come up with it. :wink:

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#106

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:11 pm

porus wrote:Actually, there were eons of time before man was even a twinkle in God's mind. He says so Himself in 76:1.

That means that while He was pleased with Himself for having created the Universe of lifeless things, He quickly got bored. He then created boring beings like angels and jinns to worship Him so that they would remind Him of how clever He was for creating the Universe.

Eventually, after eons of time (76:1), He realized how boring these beings were and, to relieve His boredom He created man not to worship Him like the angels and jinns but to try him out (76:2).

Later, when man could not figure out what to do, He sent them Guidance (76:3) to sort out the good guys from bad. He said to man "Follow my guidance. It is for that that I have created you." But man, being as perverse as he is, persisted in his wrong-doings except a few of his kind. For this perverse majority, He has prepared chains, yokes and a blazing fire (76:4).

At least one thing is certain. With His latest creation, man, God is unlikely to get bored again for many more eons.

And that is the whole Truth. Promise! :)
Porus, one quick question.

Do you think Quran is interpretable
1. by anybody ? or
2. by the Chosen ones only ? or
3. nobody at all (i.e. Quran is crystal clear on anything it says) ?

Though the above interpretation of 076:001-004 you made it appear as a jest but someone else can make similar interpretation and believe in it.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#107

Unread post by porus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:21 pm

alwan wrote: Porus, one quick question.

Do you think Quran is interpretable
1. by anybody ? or
2. by the Chosen ones only ? or
3. nobody at all (i.e. Quran is crystal clear on anything it says) ?

Though the above interpretation of 076:001-004 you made it appear as a jest but someone else can make similar interpretation and believe in it.
My own view is that Muhammad alone was the interpreter of the Quran. After him, rest of the Panjatan would be the most appropriate candidates. After that, those who learned from them. You will have to make a judgment on whether what has been passed down of interpretations from Panjatan, especially Ali, is accurate.

Apart from that, anyone can attempt an interpretation. This is a continuous process and must always be encouraged. Multiple interpretations only enrich us as civilization. However, we must introduce a word of caution. No one alive today can be singled out for special treatment over others and if an interpretation ventures into that area, then it must emphatically be rejected.

For lay people like us there is an added problem that Quran itself poses. This is primarily owing to its complex language and, for most of us, its 'foreignness'.

Let me give you an example. Quran says that if Allah wants something, He says "Be", and it comes into being. When Maryam asks how she could have a son when she has no husband, Allah says that that is possible for Allah. And yet, Allah Himself uses the argument that 'how could He Himself possibly have a son when He has no spouse"!

(6:101) أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ

While this (part of 6:101) is an argument and not a statement of a fact, it still does appear a shade contradictory. And scholars will attempt to resolve this contradiction as the Quran claims itself to be completely free of any contradiction.

My conclusion is that while multiple interpretations can be useful and should be encouraged, we are unlikely to get the only interpretation that matters and is 100% accurate in absence of Panjatan.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#108

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:20 pm

My own view is that Muhammad alone was the interpreter of the Quran. After him, rest of the Panjatan would be the most appropriate candidates. After that, those who learned from them. You will have to make a judgment on whether what has been passed down of interpretations from Panjatan, especially Ali, is accurate.
Aren't those who heard Muhammad's interpretation first Hand reliable? Like Ibn Abbas?
Any book of interpretation by Bibi Fatema? Or by Hz Hassan or Hz Hussein?
Can you find and post Interpretation of one Aya by Bibi Fatema.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#109

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:23 pm

And yet, Allah Himself uses the argument that 'how could He Himself possibly have a son when He has no spouse"!
Hmm. You do not need the panjatan to interpret this ayah for you unless you are completely blind. When people said Allah had a son, did they say so because of the power of Allah to say "Be" and it is? Or did they say he had a son because of a spouse? The fact of the matter is, that Allah could never have a son. Those created out of "Be" would never be his sons cause the understanding of humans of sons is through a spouse. There are a few things that Allah cannot do. Have a son without a spouse cause then whatever he had, it wouldn't be a "son", throw someone out of his dominion and create another Allah!!

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#110

Unread post by porus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:57 pm

Muslim First wrote: Aren't those who heard Muhammad's interpretation first Hand reliable? Like Ibn Abbas?
Of course they are. That is not my point. My point is about the credibility of reports of what has been so witnessed. There have been disagreements, as reported, among companions that were resolved by direct reference to Prophet himself. We no longer have that opportunity.

And yet multiple interpretations keep being created. We just need to be cautious.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#111

Unread post by porus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:05 pm

anajmi wrote:
And yet, Allah Himself uses the argument that 'how could He Himself possibly have a son when He has no spouse"!
Hmm. You do not need the panjatan to interpret this ayah for you unless you are completely blind. When people said Allah had a son, did they say so because of the power of Allah to say "Be" and it is? Or did they say he had a son because of a spouse? The fact of the matter is, that Allah could never have a son. Those created out of "Be" would never be his sons cause the understanding of humans of sons is through a spouse. There are a few things that Allah cannot do. Have a son without a spouse cause then whatever he had, it wouldn't be a "son", throw someone out of his dominion and create another Allah!!

Allah said that Maryam can have a son without spouse. It is entirely possible for Allah to bring that about.

Allah says that He Himself could not possibly have a son because He has no spouse. Is He saying that He could have had a son if He had a spouse? Perhaps.

Who, apart from Allah Himself and anajmi, knows?

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#112

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:55 pm

This is so mind numbing. Read surah ikhlas. And this time read someone else"s translation.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#113

Unread post by porus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:28 pm

anajmi wrote:This is so mind numbing. Read surah ikhlas. And this time read someone else"s translation.
Your mind was numb long before I started this thread. You must think that I have never read Surat al-ikhlas. What a guy!

(6:101) أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ

Did you notice how Allah has given His non-existent spouse a female gender, 'صَاحِبَةٌ ' ?

In Surat al-ikhlas He says that He did not beget? Obviously, because he had no wife, you silly! :D

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#114

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:47 pm

You must think that I have never read Surat al-ikhlas.
I asked you to read someone else's translation. You've been reading your own idiotic translations for too long,
In Surat al-ikhlas He says that He did not beget?
Actually, he says that he does not beget. So, for those who actually know Arabic, it wouldn't really matter even if he had a spouse.

Your logic has something to do with poster procter ergo fergo.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#115

Unread post by porus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:05 pm

anajmi wrote:
In Surat al-ikhlas He says that He did not beget?
Actually, he says that he does not beget.
No, He actually says " لَمْ يَلِدْ ", which means "He did not beget".

If He wanted to say "He does not beget", He would have said " لا يَلِدُ "

That is a free Elementary Arabic lesson for you! Do notice the change of sukun on 'daal' to damma.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#116

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:29 pm

You are right. God did not beget because he did not have a wife. According to you, however, it is possible for God to beget even if he does not have a wife because all he has to do is say "Be" and he would "get" correct?

Consider God wants to give a child to a woman. He says "Be" and she becomes pregnant. We already believe that this is possible from the Quran.

Now consider God wants to give a child to a man. He says "Be" and then what is supposed to happen? Let us imagine a couple of probable or improbable scenarios and post them over here.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#117

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:52 pm

I forgot to mention that the scenarios should not include a spouse for the man.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#118

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:28 pm

Muhammad alone was the interpreter of the Quran
Was Muhammad interpreter or explainer of Quran? Din't Gibraeal explained meaning of Ayas?
Meaning of lot of Ayas as reported by Sahabas exist in book of Tafseers. Is there any book of interpretation exists?

Previously I asked 3 questions I got only response for one.

salim
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#119

Unread post by salim » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:16 am

This is very interesting topic -

This is what I think why Allah created all of us. My understanding does not represent interpretation of Nizaris, ismailis, shias or over all muslims. My understanding is based on the following ayats and science theory

Quran - Read! In the name of your Lord who created, he created man from a clinging form, Read! Your Lord Is the Most Bountiful One, who taught by pen, who taught man what he did not know.

Quran - Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un

current theory of science - A new study suggests, bolstering the odds that a comet or meteorite strike may have jump-started biological evolution on Earth.

I think, with above statements, God made Angel and Jin as super computers. When life started on earth, Angel and Jin were far ahead of everyone. who would have thought that a single cell organism (if you believe in evolution) or a stone age Adam can ever come close to the super computers like Angel and Jin. Iblis is/was the super computer with most storage. His hard drive has had almost everything know on the universe. He got upset because this super computer has to bow down in front of someone who does not even know how to get light with fire, let go travel at the speed of light.

Angels and Jins would have surprised when they would have heard that their monopoly on their speed (they travel with speed of light) is about to get competition with a unicellular organism who knew nothing. With the invention of internet which travels almost at the speed of light today humans can see and talk with others at a speed of light. Soon man will control rain and will take away responsibility from angel Michael. Man is already predicting what Michael will do tomorrow with good accuracy.

Allah put his spirit in man and man is growing and one day he will overcome all his weaknesses and will become one with Allah from where he came.

Human knowledge is expanding at exponential rate. Soon man will be able to create man from a cell and man will be able to replace his part of the body. There is no stop to this.

Azazil's job is to divert human from becoming the best. His memory he can divert human at different levels. He can divert prophets and he can divert abds. Azazils biggest asset is man itself. As he uses man against man to destroy mankind. Wars, bomb lasts, murders, riots are the best weapon of Azazil. Science are philosophy are biggest enemies of Azazil. But regardless of how hard he tries, man will overcome all of this and man will keep growing as we have allah's noor in us.

This is the most interesting game. Jins (including azazil), Angels and Humans are all enjoying this.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#120

Unread post by alwan » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:38 pm

Salim,

i am sure many here will understand what you said in your long thinking but you must put you conclusion in the end in one sentence or so for the minority of us who would want a simple answer as to "how did angels know man would be corrupt? "

after all it is in the Part of Farman - Karachi, Pakistan - Tuesday, September 27, 1960
Secondly about training students to go out and to get the original material and thirdly to present the material in a logical form, because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense. It is clear and it is lucid and it is understandable, and for those of you who have studied it closely, this will be the first thing apparent to you.