How did angels know man would be corrupt?

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porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#31

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:32 pm

alwan wrote:
porus wrote:

When Adam was paraded in front of angels and jinns they were awe-struck by his intellect and, with a little prompting from God, they all prostrated to God for such a magnificent achievement. (Quran says they prostrated to Adam but I think they prostrated to God.)
though not relevant to the topic, but i am curious to know why do you think "they all prostrated to God instead of Adam".

if God's command was to prostrate to Him and not to Adam, then surely Iblis would not have have objected it.
Sujood is only for Allah. Allah states that in the Quran (41:37). Thus I have chosen to interpret Allah's command of 'sajda to Adam' as 'their acknowledgement of superiority of intellect'. It makes sense for angels to prostrate to Allah. After all, they had misgivings about Allah's wisdom in creating man. Therefore they must make amends for that haughtiness. This is a personal interpretation. I acknowledge that Quran states that 'they should to do sujood to Adam' and literally it might mean just that.

Iblis would not acknowledge superiority of intellect and was arrogant, with some justification, to think that his method of corrupting would lay waste to man's intellect. Since sujood to Allah was in explicit recognition of man's intellect, Iblis would have refused it in any case.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:59 pm

Actually, I thought He is self-sufficient in all entities, material or abstract.
God quickly got bored with that.
Mind explaining how a God, self-sufficient in all entities, material or abstract, manages to get bored?

You know what, don't bother. You'll probably end up contradicting yourself for the umpteenth time. The number of holes in your study makes it look like swiss cheese. You need to get back to the basics.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#33

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:16 pm

porus wrote: So he created jinns from fire (heat), a denser form of energy, which bred in them susceptibility to rebellion but none for remorse. Jinns quickly became jealous of angels and dwelt in eternal inferiority complex.

God quickly got bored with that. He wanted something more challenging. So He assembled all the angels and jinns and told them that he would create man, a creature from an even denser form of energy which would give him a greater susceptibility for rebellion and cause chaos and corruption. That is how the angels knew that man would be corrupt.
i dint understand the above as to why would God create humans while he had already created angles without the free will and jinns with the free will.
Are jinns not capable to disobey and ask for forgiveness ?
i mean what is the difference between jinns and humans as far as obeying, worshiping and asking for forgiveness is concerned

Nietzsche
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#34

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:40 am

Since the discussion has gravitated to wahabi vs bohra beliefs again, I think that it's safe to say that the Islamic extremist movement stems from the wahabi philosophy. Literal interpretation of the Quran, which is a violent book in some regards (no one here, especially the wahabis, can deny this) has been used by these people to justify killing thousands of people. Since the main authority in Islam is supposed to be the quran, these extremists are technically following Islam correctly. So congrats to the wahabis, your style of worship is purely based on the Quran and has gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed. Go get yourselves a cookie.

You know, the bohras might be very corrupt, but at least they don't kill innocent people. I don't expect a response to this post, but it really highlights how fundamentalist Islam has been used to kill thousands. Think about the word "fundamental". It means the foundation of something, relative to Islam, it means the core beliefs that Muslims should hold (based on Quran). So wahabi fundamentalists actually do follow the religion properly, and it results in violence, more violence, and more violence.

Oh, and I'm not sure if you guys have heard or not, but some Iraqis have celebrated Eid al Fitr in an explosive fashion, with scores dead via car bombs on Eid. Unbelievable, some Muslims can kill each other during the religion's holiest day. How can any of you even come close to explaining this?

Nietzsche
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#35

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:46 am

I think that many of you may find that outburst inappropriate or offensive. However, I want you all to think about your childish arguments on here, especially concerning the wahabi subject. While you people argue endlessly, no one speaks out against the hundreds of Muslims being killed, no, being INCINERATED in Iraq on EID DAY.

I think you all should quit arguing and maybe try to alleviate the issues that Muslims are facing, whether it is the corruption in the bohra community or speaking out against daily violence that occurs.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#36

Unread post by porus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:03 am

alwan wrote:
porus wrote: So he created jinns from fire (heat), a denser form of energy, which bred in them susceptibility to rebellion but none for remorse. Jinns quickly became jealous of angels and dwelt in eternal inferiority complex.

God quickly got bored with that. He wanted something more challenging. So He assembled all the angels and jinns and told them that he would create man, a creature from an even denser form of energy which would give him a greater susceptibility for rebellion and cause chaos and corruption. That is how the angels knew that man would be corrupt.
i dint understand the above as to why would God create humans while he had already created angles without the free will and jinns with the free will.
Are jinns not capable to disobey and ask for forgiveness ?
i mean what is the difference between jinns and humans as far as obeying, worshiping and asking for forgiveness is concerned
I have already outlined the difference between jinns and humans. Jinns have no intellect, no remorse and no sense of 'right and wrong'. Humans have all these these qualities in plenty. He has the intellect to discern right from wrong, he shows remorse and he has the knowledge of Allah's compassion and mercy, which he might take advantage of. Angels are special in that they are aware of man's predicament but will not do anything against Allah's will.

This does not mean that angels and jinns don't have free will. I have not used free will in my argument. I think that all creatures have free will but only man will use it to defy God and then may make amends.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#37

Unread post by porus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:16 am

Nietzsche,

I feel your pain. Extremist Wahhabis are Satan's handmaidens.

Quran does not encourage violence. It promulgates self-defence and commands attack only when attacked. It commands forgiveness of enemies if they relent or repent.

Quran asks us to use our intellect to affirm faith and it does not force faith on any one. It always encourages polite discourse.

Quran states that God is willing to forgive any man even on his death bed if he repents.

How can Wahhabis take away right to life of Muslims who disagree with them unless they are guided by Satan and not the Quran?

Many on this forum have written extensively on the Wahhabi scourge and how it has shown a completely false and yet ugly caricature of Islam to the world. This is a forum for discussion. It does not offer collective action of any kind. Only individuals in their personal capacity can do something positive, the least to expose that Satan is at work among Wahhabi extremists. No doubt you will be able to find an avenue for positive action in your personal capacity by supporting organizations working actively against the Wahhabi scourge.

LionHunter
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#38

Unread post by LionHunter » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:37 am

Nietzsche wrote:Since the discussion has gravitated to wahabi vs bohra beliefs again, I think that it's safe to say that the Islamic extremist movement stems from the wahabi philosophy. Literal interpretation of the Quran, which is a violent book in some regards (no one here, especially the wahabis, can deny this) has been used by these people to justify killing thousands of people. Since the main authority in Islam is supposed to be the quran, these extremists are technically following Islam correctly. So congrats to the wahabis, your style of worship is purely based on the Quran and has gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed. Go get yourselves a cookie.

You know, the bohras might be very corrupt, but at least they don't kill innocent people. I don't expect a response to this post, but it really highlights how fundamentalist Islam has been used to kill thousands. Think about the word "fundamental". It means the foundation of something, relative to Islam, it means the core beliefs that Muslims should hold (based on Quran). So wahabi fundamentalists actually do follow the religion properly, and it results in violence, more violence, and more violence.

Oh, and I'm not sure if you guys have heard or not, but some Iraqis have celebrated Eid al Fitr in an explosive fashion, with scores dead via car bombs on Eid. Unbelievable, some Muslims can kill each other during the religion's holiest day. How can any of you even come close to explaining this?
how can you be so sure that what ever bombing is happening in Iraq is from wahabi extremist and not from US to just keep muslims fighting with each other?

I am very much sure most bombs are planted by US army in order to keep its presence in IRAQ to suck more oil out of it.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:23 am

Nietzsche,

Instead of complaining over here to people who have no power to do anything, may be you should write a letter to Obama and Bush who spread freedom and democracy in Iraq and got rid of the tyrant Saddam Hussain. They have a huge military that can take care of Al-kidda in Iraq. Time to send them back in!!

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#40

Unread post by alwan » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:49 pm

porus wrote:
alwan wrote: i dint understand the above as to why would God create humans while he had already created angles without the free will and jinns with the free will.
Are jinns not capable to disobey and ask for forgiveness ?
i mean what is the difference between jinns and humans as far as obeying, worshiping and asking for forgiveness is concerned
I have already outlined the difference between jinns and humans. Jinns have no intellect, no remorse and no sense of 'right and wrong'. Humans have all these these qualities in plenty. He has the intellect to discern right from wrong, he shows remorse and he has the knowledge of Allah's compassion and mercy, which he might take advantage of. Angels are special in that they are aware of man's predicament but will not do anything against Allah's will.

This does not mean that angels and jinns don't have free will. I have not used free will in my argument. I think that all creatures have free will but only man will use it to defy God and then may make amends.
if angles and jinns don't have intellect for reasoning and understanding, then how come angles doubted the wisdom of the God's decision to place a vicegerent in earth and similarly how come Iblis, a jinn, refused to obey the God's decision for them to prostrate to His vicegerent ?

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:05 pm

Apparently porus nas never understood surah jinn, which is not surprising.

Imagine a being with no intellect managing to fool billions of humans into doing that which is wrong without himself having a sense of what is right or wrong!!

Curious001
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#42

Unread post by Curious001 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:25 pm

Salaams everyone,

I'm a recent "bohri" convert....my husband's family strongly believe conversion make us "complete". While I was raised Catholic, my family is not particularly religious. After having converted, and now trying to learn Islam...at least the Bohra version of it, I have several misgivings about religion in general. I stumbled upon this site, trying to look for Bohra websites where I can learn more myself without being patronized about the lack of it.

I mean, let's take this topic, for example....now this train of thought is similar in Christianity, and Judaism.

My belief is that mankind indeed evolved. So did our capacity to conjure up our relation to this universe and our understanding of our finite life. We are in God's image because we are the only ones who can create and destroy in the physical sense...jinns and angels can't do this. We are quite like God, because God gave us dominion over all living and no-living things...except our on finite life...which makes God superior because God controls that. And we are quite like God, who creates things for glorification, which is what we humans do......and so we use this logic to reconcile our place in the world.

My impression of Bohras has been great.........I only wish I had the same strength in religious beliefs as you all.

Salaams.

Bahas Al-Haqiqah (?)

porus wrote:When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.”[2:30]

Why would God want to put a vicegerent on earth? God does not answer. But He tells angels that He knows the reason but He was not going to tell them. But angels knew that the vicegerent would cause corruption. How did the angels know?

God gives guidance for the vicegerents to rise above corruption. So why do we find that we have a 'hierarchy' among His vicegerents and those supposedly on the higher rungs and closest to Him are among the most corrupt?

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#43

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:54 pm

Welcome to the forum, Curious001. If you wish to learn about the Bohra version of Islam, you might get some benefit from this forum, and a lot of bewilderment.

Bohras are Shia but differ from the mainstream twelver Shia in that they follow a different set of leaders (Imams) following a medieval schism. Theological differences need not concern us but I want to warn you about the direction that Bohras have taken in the last fifty years.

I grew up in East Africa and, in my teens, left to settle in the UK and the USA. When I was growing up, Bohras had very close association with mainstream Islam. People like me, who left East Africa at a young age, would be shocked to see how their religion has deteriorated into a human-worshiping cult. They would not recognize any vestige of what they left so long ago. Worship of Allah takes second place to breast-beating and glorification of the leader. I want to warn you that this is not Islam nor what Bohras used to be only fifty odd years ago. However, not all is lost. More and more Bohras are now becoming aware of their true faith and with new emphasis on the Quran by leadership, things may change.

Islam is the monotheistic religion in the same way that Christianity and Judaism are. Indeed, Islam claims that they are all one religion but Islam is the latest and the last revelation and supersedes Christianity and Judaism. That is why there are similarities among these three.

Regarding human beings, there are two views. Evolutionary view which deals primarily with man's physical evolution. Then there is the metaphysical view which seeks to explain man's purpose and his morality. It starts with allegorical creation of man.

Quran describes God's attributes using 99 different names. God has breathed His spirit into humans and therefore humans share His attributes to a minuscule degree.

While many here are at odds with how the religion of Bohras have gone astray, at least in practice, in the last fifty years or so, there are some here (specifically two Wahhabis) who claim that the entire Shia enterprise is Satan's creation and they would not believe any of their leaders, even from the family of the Prophet or any of their history or hadith. They are here to ridicule the Shia religion. I warn you that they harm the cause of reform but, unfortunately, they are here to stay.

Curious001
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#44

Unread post by Curious001 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:50 pm

Thank you for your welcome, Porus. Since you shared a bit about you, I'd like to tell you a bit about me. I grew up in rural Georgia, where generations including my grandparents were farmers (and strong Catholics). My parents' moved to Alaska as doctors (not very religious-perhaps why they moved to the world's end?), and I grew up there, eventually following their footsteps into medicine. I met my husband while on a "Church sponsored mission-aka Medical camp" in Rwanda a few years ago, while still in med school. What struck me was his strong belief in Bohra Shia Islam....We spent many a night talking about this, as it was completely foreign for me to see an American "ABCD" who so passionately believes in a religion, let alone any religion. Needless to say, if you believe in fate.....

While I do agree with you that the Saudi version of Islam is very claustrophobic to me, I do have reservations about Bohra Islam as well. I have been to Yemen...Yemeni Bohras don't seem to have such deep convictions as their Indian counterparts...just my observation. My view of the world is to simplify it, rather than mystifying it.....all religions build layers up, rather than tearing them down...




porus wrote:Welcome to the forum, Curious001. If you wish to learn about the Bohra version of Islam, you might get some benefit from this forum, and a lot of bewilderment.

Bohras are Shia but differ from the mainstream twelver Shia in that they follow a different set of leaders (Imams) following a medieval schism. Theological differences need not concern us but I want to warn you about the direction that Bohras have taken in the last fifty years.

I grew up in East Africa and, in my teens, left to settle in the UK and the USA. When I was growing up, Bohras had very close association with mainstream Islam. People like me, who left East Africa at a young age, would be shocked to see how their religion has deteriorated into a human-worshiping cult. They would not recognize any vestige of what they left so long ago. Worship of Allah takes second place to breast-beating and glorification of the leader. I want to warn you that this is not Islam nor what Bohras used to be only fifty odd years ago. However, not all is lost. More and more Bohras are now becoming aware of their true faith and with new emphasis on the Quran by leadership, things may change.

Islam is the monotheistic religion in the same way that Christianity and Judaism are. Indeed, Islam claims that they are all one religion but Islam is the latest and the last revelation and supersedes Christianity and Judaism. That is why there are similarities among these three.

Regarding human beings, there are two views. Evolutionary view which deals primarily with man's physical evolution. Then there is the metaphysical view which seeks to explain man's purpose and his morality. It starts with allegorical creation of man.

Quran describes God's attributes using 99 different names. God has breathed His spirit into humans and therefore humans share His attributes to a minuscule degree.

While many here are at odds with how the religion of Bohras have gone astray, at least in practice, in the last fifty years or so, there are some here (specifically two Wahhabis) who claim that the entire Shia enterprise is Satan's creation and they would not believe any of their leaders, even from the family of the Prophet or any of their history or hadith. They are here to ridicule the Shia religion. I warn you that they harm the cause of reform but, unfortunately, they are here to stay.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:37 pm

While many here are at odds with how the religion of Bohras have gone astray, at least in practice, in the last fifty years or so, there are some here (specifically two Wahhabis) who claim that the entire Shia enterprise is Satan's creation and they would not believe any of their leaders, even from the family of the Prophet or any of their history or hadith. They are here to ridicule the Shia religion. I warn you that they harm the cause of reform but, unfortunately, they are here to stay.
Actually, porus has the habit of equating what he says to be what the prophet says and what Allah says. For eg. Allah says that he created man and jinn for nothing other than to worship him. But porus says that he created man because he was bored. If you disagree with porus, he will make the claim that you have disagreed with the family of the prophet, the prophet and Allah himself. It is typical bohra mentality. You will see the exact same claim coming out of the corrupt bohra leadership as well. The leadership claims that whatever they command is actually a command directly from the representative of Allah, the Imam, which means it is directly from Allah. porus is no different as we have seen above.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#46

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:39 pm

anajmi wrote: Allah says that he created man and jinn for nothing other than to worship him. But porus says that he created man because he was bored.
Allah says that in the Quran. But your interpretation of it is a 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy.

I started with the question how angels knew man would be corrupt? I decided that this was 'ilmul ghayb'. Remember it is I who decided. On that basis I said I would speculate and created a mini-metaphysics. I am not proclaiming a Truth.

So, let us go back to that 'point in time' when God says to angels "I am going to create a vicegerent on earth". He did not say "I am going to create man to worship me". If angels thought man would worship God they would have had no misgivings.

A long time after that episode, God decided to send down the Quran. In the Quran, He wants to guide people. After all, He is compassionate and merciful. He sees man is in real trouble. So He says "if you worship me you will be alright. I created you for that". But we know that if it was His desire that man should worship Him, he would be doing it like the angels. But he does not. So when He says "I created you to worship me", you should read between the lines and understand that 'God wants me to follow His guidance. If I worship Him, I will be alright'.

For a literalist Wahhabi, Quran is a one-dimensional rigid dogmatic proposition. For the rest of us, Quran is multidimensional treasure with multiple layers of meaning to draw out and reflect upon, and grow in appreciation of God and His universe, a feat beyond a Wahhabi's imagination.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:26 am

you should read between the lines and understand that 'God wants me to follow His guidance. If I worship Him, I will be alright'.
So according to you, God hasn't actually said that in the Quran? You have to go on a multidimensional treasure hunt and read between the lines to figure that out? How stupid are you? or how stupid do you think everybody else is?

Oh and by the way, can you clarify which dimension it was that you used to approach and between which lines, when you figured out that God created man because he was bored and needed a challenge?
Last edited by anajmi on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:44 am

Here are some beautiful ayahs of the Quran which tell you that which porus had to go on a multi dimensional treasure hunt for.

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ
ارْجِعِي إِلَى رَبِّكِ رَاضِيَةً مَّرْضِيَّةً
فَادْخُلِي فِي عِبَادِي
وَادْخُلِي جَنَّتِي

alwan
Posts: 58
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#49

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:45 pm

porus wrote:

So, let us go back to that 'point in time' when God says to angels "I am going to create a vicegerent on earth". He did not say "I am going to create man to worship me". If angels thought man would worship God they would have had no misgivings.

A long time after that episode, God decided to send down the Quran. In the Quran, He wants to guide people. After all, He is compassionate and merciful. He sees man is in real trouble. So He says "if you worship me you will be alright. I created you for that". But we know that if it was His desire that man should worship Him, he would be doing it like the angels. But he does not. So when He says "I created you to worship me", you should read between the lines and understand that 'God wants me to follow His guidance. If I worship Him, I will be alright'.

.
Status of Human; 002:030, "I am setting in the earth a viceroy"

Reason of Creating Human: 051:056, "I have not created jinn and human except to worship Me
"
maybe God told Angles the status of human (i.e. viceroy) in earth but did not tell Angles at that time the reason for creating human (i.e. to worship Him)

and maybe that's why Angles thought that human will be corrupt because of his status of viceroy

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#50

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:40 pm

alwan wrote: Status of Human; 002:030, "I am setting in the earth a viceroy"

Reason of Creating Human: 051:056, "I have not created jinn and human except to worship Me
"
maybe God told Angles the status of human (i.e. viceroy) in earth but did not tell Angles at that time the reason for creating human (i.e. to worship Him)

and maybe that's why Angles thought that human will be corrupt because of his status of viceroy
We do not know why angels thought man would be corrupt. Like I said, it is ilmul ghayb. You may speculate and think that it is because God did not tell angels His reason for creating man, That is ok.

Concerning Allah's reason for creating man:

If Allah wants something, He simply says "Be, and it is."

If Allah wanted to create humans to worship Him, He would have done so.

Let us use other words for ya'buduni = serve me.

To serve Him is not Allah's reason. Allah does not need man's service. It is actually the reason for man. Allah is simply reminding man to serve Him in 51:56 and tells man that that should be man's purpose.

As to why really Allah created man, Allah did not tell angels and He does not tell us either. Maybe He got bored with angels and jinns and wanted something more 'entertaining'.

You would do well to read the tafseer of the ayat 51:56 from ibn Kathir and Aqa Mahdi Pooya. These are available online.

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:53 pm

As to why really Allah created man, Allah did not tell angels and He does not tell us either. Maybe He got bored with angels and jinns and wanted something more 'entertaining'.
Or maybe Allah created man to worship Him. Just like He actually says in the Quran!!

I have heard about miyabhai ki tangdi, but have you ever heard about porus ki tangdi? He will deny the Quran but cannot deny his own faulty words!!
You would do well to read the tafseer of the ayat 51:56 from ibn Kathir and Aqa Mahdi Pooya. These are available online.
Are we supposed to be looking for multiple dimensions and reading between the lines when we read Ibn Kathir and Aqa Mahdi Pooya?

anajmi
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:14 pm

Maybe He got bored with angels and jinns and wanted something more 'entertaining'.
Here porus implies that God needs more 'entertaining'. However, earlier, he has said this
Was God so lacking in 'joy' that He created humans? Actually, I thought He is self-sufficient in all entities, material or abstract.
If I were to get a penny for every time porus contradicts himself, I would be a millionaire.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#53

Unread post by alwan » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:52 pm

Porus,
though no related to the topic, can you tell me what God meant in 002:030, "I am setting in the earth a viceroy"
1. Are all of us (each and every one) vicegerents of God ? or
2. Only chosen ones from the progeny of Adam ? refer 003:033-034 or
3. Adam Himself only ?
If Quran is not clear on that, can you put your own view ?

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#54

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:52 am

alwan wrote:
porus wrote:

When Adam was paraded in front of angels and jinns they were awe-struck by his intellect and, with a little prompting from God, they all prostrated to God for such a magnificent achievement. (Quran says they prostrated to Adam but I think they prostrated to God.)
though not relevant to the topic, but i am curious to know why do you think "they all prostrated to God instead of Adam".

if God's command was to prostrate to Him and not to Adam, then surely Iblis would not have have objected it.
As-Sunnah Vol. 2 Issue No. 6


The Prostration of the Angels was before Adam (alaihi as-salaam) but the Obedience was to Allah

Before creating Adam (alaihi as-salaam), Allah informed the angels that He was going to create a human being, and when He had finished forming him, they were to prostrate to him. This indicates the great honor that Allah granted Adam and He reminds Adam's offspring of this fact in numerous Qur'aanic verses. Allah says in Soorah al-Baqarah (2): 34, 'And (remember) when We said to the angels, 'Prostrate yourselves before Adam.' And they prostrated�' [Soorah al-Baqarah (2): 34]

This prostration of the angels before Adam was a sign of honor and respect and out of obedience to the command of Allah. Qatadah commented, 'The obedience was for Allah and the prostration was before Adam. Allah honored Adam and commanded the angels to prostrate before him.' [See at-Tabaree (1): 512]

Some people said that this prostration was just a prostration of greeting, peace and honor, hence Allah's statement, 'And he (Prophet Yusuf) raised his parents to the throne and they fell down before him prostrate. And he said, 'O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream afore time! My Lord has made it come true!' [Soorah Yusuf (12): 100]

The practice of prostration was allowed for previous nations but was abolished for ours. Mu'adh (radhi allahu anhu) said to the Prophet (sallallahu alahi wa-sallam), 'I visited ash-Sham and found that they used to prostrate before their priests and scholars. You, O Messenger of Allah, are more deserving of prostration.' The Prophet (sallallahu alahi wa-sallam) said, 'No. If I was to command any human to prostrate before another human, I would command the wife to prostrate before her husband because of the enormity of his right on her.' [Tirmidhee (1109)] [See, Tafseer Ibn Katheer]


Taken from As-Sunnah Newsletter - http://www.qsep.com

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#55

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:57 am

Google is good
Poogal will confuse and mislead you.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#56

Unread post by porus » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:50 pm

alwan wrote:Porus,
though no related to the topic, can you tell me what God meant in 002:030, "I am setting in the earth a viceroy"
1. Are all of us (each and every one) vicegerents of God ? or
2. Only chosen ones from the progeny of Adam ? refer 003:033-034 or
3. Adam Himself only ?
If Quran is not clear on that, can you put your own view ?
1. Yes, we all are. The clue to this is the angel's response to God when He told them that he would appoint a vicegerent. Their concern about man causing corruption and shed blood clearly implies reference to all mankind.

2. If you put Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim and Aal-e-Imran (Isa's ancestors) in context of adjacent ayats, 'chosen ones' (mustafa) clearly refers to God's messengers. Especially, they are not among those the angels feared would cause corruption and bloodshed.

3. See 1 and 2 above.

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#57

Unread post by porus » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:55 pm

Sujood is an act of formal worship. It means bending down and putting forehead and tip of nose to the ground. Humans do this for Allah and no one else. Any suggestion that this act was allowed at one time by Allah for anyone other than Him and later abrogated finds no justification in the Quran. If that is true, Wahhabi Lite (aka Muslim First) should identify the actual ayat in the Quran which states that.

A non-formal meaning of sajda is to salute an aspect of our being which is our criterion for knowing right from wrong (our intellect and morality) and act accordingly.

Isn't it remarkable that Satan was 'created' at the same time as a human being? Human being has both the angelic aspects and the satanic aspects. Allah tells these aspects of the human to honor his in-built sense of moral code; in other words to do 'sajda' to this 'moral code'. If he lets satan in him overpower the angel in him, human will exit paradise and return only after he manages his angelic aspect to become dominant with Allah's guidance.

If you confuse the formal sujood as in prescribed prayer with sujood as described in the episode of Adam's creation, you are likely to become victim of arrogant humans who want it performed for themselves. There is nothing wrong is saluting a person of higher 'merit' as long as it does not involve formal sujood. This can be done, for example, by raising your hand to him and kissing his hand.

I often wonder why the preposition 'li' always comes after the word 'sujood' when used as verb. It also has the meaning 'because of' or 'in consideration to'. If you interpret the episode of Adam's creation as literal as opposed to allegorical described above, then when Allah says 'Prostrate li Adama', He could mean 'salute Adam for his intellect' or 'Prostrate to me in consideration of Adam'.

alwan
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#58

Unread post by alwan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:43 pm

porus wrote: If you put Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim and Aal-e-Imran (Isa's ancestors) in context of adjacent ayats, 'chosen ones' (mustafa) clearly refers to God's messengers. Especially, they are not among those the angels feared would cause corruption and bloodshed.
003:033-034 God chose Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of Imran above all beings, the seed of one another; God hears, and knows.

don't you think Isa's ancestors are part of family of the House of Abraham and not of Imran ?

i mean, in this verse, God does clearly differentiates the family of Abraham and the family of Imran despite being the seed of one another

if so, then who are in the family of house of Imran ?

porus
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#59

Unread post by porus » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:11 pm

alwan wrote:
porus wrote: If you put Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim and Aal-e-Imran (Isa's ancestors) in context of adjacent ayats, 'chosen ones' (mustafa) clearly refers to God's messengers. Especially, they are not among those the angels feared would cause corruption and bloodshed.
003:033-034 God chose Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of Imran above all beings, the seed of one another; God hears, and knows.

don't you think Isa's ancestors are part of family of the House of Abraham and not of Imran ?

i mean, in this verse, God does clearly differentiates the family of Abraham and the family of Imran despite being the seed of one another

if so, then who are in the family of house of Imran ?
I am not clear if Imran is from zurriyat of Ibrahim. Ibn Kathir's Qasasun Nabiyyin states that Imran was married to Hannah (mentioned in 3:35). Hannah was Prophet Zakariyya's sister-in-law. She gave birth to Maryam, Isa's mother (3:36). From Quran, we can say that Hannah, Maryam and Isa were among the chosen (mustafiyyin) as recipients of Allah's risalat. Therefore Aal-e-Imran refers specifically to Hannah, Maryam and Isa.

Some Muslim scholars trace ancestry of Maryam and her mother Hannah to Prophets Sulaiman and Dawood who are from Aal-e-Ibrahim.

The fact that Quran mentions Aal-e-Imran separately from Aal-e-Ibrahim hints at Imran/Hannah being separate from Aal-e-Ibrahim. However, Allah knows best.

Muslim First
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Re: How did angels know man would be corrupt?

#60

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:58 pm

The fact that Quran mentions Aal-e-Imran separately from Aal-e-Ibrahim hints at Imran/Hannah being separate from Aal-e-Ibrahim. However, Allah knows best.
All this speculation to prove Shia deity are somehow hail from Islamic royal stock!

Religion should be simple. Only Allah, Prophet, Allah's book and authentic Sunnah of Prophet matters.