How we started to believe 13th Imam.

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yusuf78
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How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#1

Unread post by yusuf78 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:16 am

My father is doing some kind of research on history after Imam Mehandi,, He wants to know why bohra community only believes that there is existence of imam after Imam Mehandi, how we started to continue in belief of imam mehandi while most shiya branches claims that Imam Mehandi is last imam.

I am asking any historical evidence or documents about what happend after Imam mehandi and how some branches started to believe further. Please provide any web access or any documents have been published if anyone knows.

AMAFHH
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:19 am

Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#2

Unread post by AMAFHH » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:28 am

yusuf78 wrote:My father is doing some kind of research on history after Imam Mehandi,, He wants to know why bohra community only believes that there is existence of imam after Imam Mehandi, how we started to continue in belief of imam mehandi while most shiya branches claims that Imam Mehandi is last imam.

I am asking any historical evidence or documents about what happend after Imam mehandi and how some branches started to believe further. Please provide any web access or any documents have been published if anyone knows.
There are many documents , one you can find a Book Named Kitab ul Irashaad on the web

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#3

Unread post by badrijanab » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:41 am

Ismaili and Ithna Asheri both acknowledges that ab-initio Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. made his son Ismail as his successor. In turn Imam Ismail a.s. made his son Imam Mohammed Shakir a.s. as his successor.

Imam Ismail a.s. died in the life of Imam Sadik a.s. so the Imamat passed from Ismail to his son Mohammed Shakir a.s. in the same way like Kezar became Prophet when his father Haroon died in the life of Moosa, or Finhaas become waris of Aadam when Habeel died in life of Aadam.

On the death of Imam Sadik a.s. some people spotted opportunity to take political advantage in the same way like on death of Prophet Mohammed saww some spotted opportunity to declare unauthorised persons as waaris (khaleefa) of Prophet and people in large quantity abandoned Mola Ali a.s. (the haq) and tendered their imaan (bayt) to unauthorised person. In same fashion on death of Imam Sadik a.s. similar type of people forged claim that Imam Sadik a.s. made mistake (mazallah) by appointing Imam Ismail a.s. as his successor and later corrected his mistakes by changing nuss to Moosa Kazim sahab.

On death of Prophet Mohammed saww Islam bifurcated in two parts: (1) Ali wale (Shia) who were in minority and (2) Unauthorised people pretending to be successor of Prophet; termed as Khalifa, they were in huge majority.

On death of Imam Sadik a.s. Shia got bifurcated into: (1) Ismaili named after Imam Ismail on whom Imam Sadik conferred nuss; these are in minority and (2) Ithna Asheri; these were in majority like Sunni after death of Prophet; these are those who claim Ialmam Sadik a.s. made mistakes.

Note: the unanimously accepted dogma of Islam (Shia) is: Imam is masoom ie flawless ie he cannot by default make any error.

Ismaili obeyed above dogma and Ithna Asheri breached above dogma that is why Islam have Imam beyond the count of twelve.

SBM
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#4

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:01 am

^
Badrijanab
Is it your luck or choice that seems that you end up in MINORITY every where, first shia then Ismaili and now Pristine Bohra (Whatever that is):) :)

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#5

Unread post by badrijanab » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:15 am

SBM wrote:^
Badrijanab
Is it your luck or choice that seems that you end up in MINORITY every where, first shia then Ismaili and now Pristine Bohra (Whatever that is):) :)
SBM Bhai,

You forgot to start with Islam (as minority in compare to Christians).

So being in MINORITY makes Islam as false and erroneous religion?

SBM
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#6

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:37 am

^
So being in MINORITY makes Islam as false and erroneous religion?
I Never said about being minority as false and erroneous it must be your complex that being minority is being false and erroneous
I always considered Islam was born the day Allah put the life in Adam. Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger who completed Islam. I believe
all the Prophets brought Islam it is just the followers strayed away as Christians or Jews SO ISLAM WAS NEVER A MINORITY RELIGION BUT WAS THERE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MANKIND . Now you would argue about Prophet Mohammed being the first Muslim but I believe since Adam was created and it was the first monotheistic religion there was no need to declare him as Muslim or anything else since there was nothing at that time and that is why he was never called as First Muslim.
and Yes Muslims are still minority in world population and that is the fact so once again you proved my point YOU ARE ALWAYS IN MINORITY.
Another thing I always thought Muslims have to follow three principles for being a good Muslim (May be Pristine Bohras have some other principles)
1-Shariah (teaching of Quran)
2-Sunnah (teaching of Prophet)
3-Ijtima (Majority decision)

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#7

Unread post by badrijanab » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:24 am

SBM wrote: Another thing I always thought Muslims have to follow three principles for being a good Muslim
1-Shariah (teaching of Quran)
2-Sunnah (teaching of Prophet)
3-Ijtima (Majority decision)
Have Allah or Prophet commanded to follow Ijtima? R the decision makers in Ijtima authorised by Prophet or Allah to dictate dictum in reference to Islam?

Their is no concept of Ijtima in Islam - prove if u r able?

Re: Sunnah - how will u decide if Sahi Bukhari or Muslim are reporting correct tradition/sunnat?

To observe fast on Eid al fitr is haram. By following Sunni u kept fast on day of Eid! And dichotomy, irony is you misperceive it as character of being good Muslim, where else acting otherwise indeed!!!

SBM
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#8

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:05 am

how will u decide if Sahi Bukhari or Muslim are reporting correct tradition/sunnat?
And how would one decide what you preach is true specially when you are always in Minority? Br Porus who follows Fatimid Calender even conceded that this year calendar may be wrong and Bohras (only Bohras) started Ramadan one day earlier
USUALLY WHEN MINORITY STARTED IMPOSING THEIR THINKING AND THEY THINK THEY ARE ALWAYS RIGHT THEN THEY BECOME DICTATOR OR 51-52 OR 53 (please keep Imam Hussain and his shahdat out of this discussion that was an exception to the rule)

porus
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#9

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:20 am

yusuf78 wrote:My father is doing some kind of research on history after Imam Mehandi, (13th Imam?)
Irrelevant discussion on an extremely ignorant question. :roll:

humble_servant_us
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#10

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:39 pm

It is a very relevant question because you find so many traditions in both Shia and Sunni regarding 12 khalifas(a simple Google search can give u all of this). Shia and Sunnis differ on who they were but they accept on number, so the question from where did no 13 originate. Do bohras have any traditions from the prophet(pbuh) which cites number of imams(a) after him

porus
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#11

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:49 pm

Twelvers believe there 12 Imams. The 12th is alive and will appear. They cite a hadith of Rasulullah that there will be 12 Imams. Therefore, for them, there is no 13th.

Ismailies and Bohras believe their 13th Imam was Imam Mansoor. Not some obscure misnamed Mehandi.

I am not familiar wioth other lines of Imams.

Since this is a Bohra forum, this question is ignorant, has no basis and is completely irrelevant.

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#12

Unread post by badrijanab » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:04 pm

humble_servant_us wrote:It is a very relevant question because you find so many traditions in both Shia and Sunni regarding 12 khalifas(a simple Google search can give u all of this). Shia and Sunnis differ on who they were but they accept on number, so the question from where did no 13 originate. Do bohras have any traditions from the prophet(pbuh) which cites number of imams(a) after him
Tradition is: Prophet Mohammed saww gave 100 bed rosary (100 dana ki tasbeeh) to his daughter Fatima a.s. - progeny of Mohammed saww is via Molatina Fatima a.s. this is "misaal" in the progeny of Molatina Fatima a.s. their will be 100 Imam's.

The rank of Mola Ali a.s. is superior than Imam Hasan a.s. and Imam Hussain a.s. But Ithna Asheri pulled his position down and stacked him in rank of Imam so to artificially get the count of 12.

Let's go for simple and fundamental facts because they are easy to understand and least disputable: At least per ten prominent Ithna Asheri scholar including Bakir Majlisi: Imam Sadik a.s. did nuss (chose successor) on Imam Ismail a.s. but Imam Sadik made mistake and changed nuss to Moosa Kazim sahab.

Think: can Imam Sadik make mistakes? No. It means Imsm Ismail is in place of Mola Ali.

Hozefa
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#13

Unread post by Hozefa » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:49 am

Up to imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (6th for twelvers & 5th for Ismailis) is common then we have different imams. there are two Imam Mahdi (Muhammad al-Mahdi 12th for twelvers & . Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah 11th for ismailis)
please correct me if above info is wrong

yusuf78 wrote:My father is doing some kind of research on history after Imam Mehandi,, He wants to know why bohra community only believes that there is existence of imam after Imam Mehandi, how we started to continue in belief of imam mehandi while most shiya branches claims that Imam Mehandi is last imam.

I am asking any historical evidence or documents about what happend after Imam mehandi and how some branches started to believe further. Please provide any web access or any documents have been published if anyone knows.

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#14

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:23 am

Tradition is: Prophet Mohammed saww gave 100 bed rosary (100 dana ki tasbeeh) to his daughter Fatima a.s. - progeny of Mohammed saww is via Molatina Fatima a.s. this is "misaal" in the progeny of Molatina Fatima a.s. their will be 100 Imam's.
Can you please give reference for this tradition. What is the chain of narrators and what is its authenticity. What you have stated looks like a "baatin" interpretation.
The rank of Mola Ali a.s. is superior than Imam Hasan a.s. and Imam Hussain a.s. But Ithna Asheri pulled his position down and stacked him in rank of Imam so to artificially get the count of 12.
Status of Maula Ali(as) is only known to ALlah(swt) and his messenger(pbuh).
What you write is false information, because you have not understood what concept of imamat is in Shia islam. With your half knowledge on shia/sunni islam you are spreading false information and trying to create mischief (sorry about it).
Let's go for simple and fundamental facts because they are easy to understand and least disputable:
Simple fact-
Prophet(pbuh) said there will be 12 khalifas after me( sunnis and shias accept it)
Janabe Ismail died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq(as) (everyone including bohras accept it)

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#15

Unread post by badrijanab » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:46 am

humble_servant_us wrote: Janabe Ismail died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq(as) (everyone including bohras accept it)
Prophet Ismail also died in the life of his father Prophet Ibrahim! Kezar s/o Ismail became the successor of his grand father Ibrahim. Likewise Imam Mohammed Shakir a.s. became the successor of Imam Sadik a.s.

The point is, which you are afraid and deliberately unable to answer is: As per Ithna Asheri at least ten most prominent scholars including Bakir Majlisi (Bihar ul Anwaar) and Kulaini (Osool a Kafi): Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. has aboriginally made 'nuss' (declared successor) over Imam Ismail a.s. and not over Musa Kazim. Further Ithna scholars write that Imam Jaffer Sadik made mistake by declaring Ismail as his successor and changed the 'nuss' to Musa Kazim.

The most important dogma of Shia (all sects included): "Imam is infallible." So Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. cannot make mistake but Ithna Asheri's scholar and their leaders can commit mistakes indeed. Hence proved, Imam Isamil a.s. chain of Fatimi Imamat is the only rightful successor of Imam Sadik a.s.

humble_servant_us
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#16

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:24 am

Prophet Ismail also died in the life of his father Prophet Ibrahim! Kezar s/o Ismail became the successor of his grand father Ibrahim.
Not sure about this. Need to check this.
Further Ithna scholars write that Imam Jaffer Sadik made mistake by declaring Ismail as his successor and changed the 'nuss' to Musa Kazim.[/color][/b]
This is a Lie from you. No scholar says Imam sadiq(as) made a mistake. Forget shias , even sunnis highly rever the great Imam jaffer sadiq(as) and no one can doubt his honesty and integrity.

I would advice you to either read the concept of imamat in shia theology correctly or to discuss with some one knowledgeable to clarify your mis-information. I suppose you are from Indore , so i can recommend you someone from Indore who can help you on this.

Please provide me references from Bihar and kafi for further study. You can PM me.

alwan
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 am

Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#17

Unread post by alwan » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:16 pm

badrijanab wrote:
As per Ithna Asheri at least ten most prominent scholars including Bakir Majlisi (Bihar ul Anwaar) and Kulaini (Osool a Kafi): Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. has aboriginally made 'nuss' (declared successor) over Imam Ismail a.s. and not over Musa Kazim. Further Ithna scholars write that Imam Jaffer Sadik made mistake by declaring Ismail as his successor and changed the 'nuss' to Musa Kazim.
It would be nice if you give references with the book names and their page numbers.

alwan
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 am

Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#18

Unread post by alwan » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:39 pm

badrijanab wrote:
humble_servant_us wrote:It is a very relevant question because you find so many traditions in both Shia and Sunni regarding 12 khalifas(a simple Google search can give u all of this). Shia and Sunnis differ on who they were but they accept on number, so the question from where did no 13 originate. Do bohras have any traditions from the prophet(pbuh) which cites number of imams(a) after him
Tradition is: Prophet Mohammed saww gave 100 bed rosary (100 dana ki tasbeeh) to his daughter Fatima a.s. - progeny of Mohammed saww is via Molatina Fatima a.s. this is "misaal" in the progeny of Molatina Fatima a.s. their will be 100 Imam's.
The belief in 100 Imams.
Is it Mustali Ismaili belief ? or
is it only Dawoodi Bohora belief ?
what is the number (starting from Imam Ali or Imam Hassan) of the current Imam in Satr ?
After the 100 th Imam, will the world end or it will continue without a Guide (Imam) ?

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#19

Unread post by badrijanab » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:42 am

Is it Mustali Ismaili belief ? or
Mustali Tayyebi Imams
what is the number (starting from Imam Ali or Imam Hassan) of the current Imam in Satr ?
Imam Hasan a.s. is the first Imam and Imam Mehdi (Quaim) will be 100th.
After the 100 th Imam, will the world end or it will continue without a Guide (Imam) ?
Islam have their guide from 1st person (Aadam Qulli) on earth and will have guide till last person on earth (Qayamat Sugra). They are called as "Mustakar Imam", son after father follows in unbreakable chain. Qayamat means change of era (daur), when Quaim (Imam Mehdi = Mohammed bin Abdullah) will come the Shariyat of Mohammed s.a.w.w. will cease and new Shariyat of Quaim will come in power same like when Mohammedi Shariyat came in power and the then existing shariyat of Prophet Christ came to be ceased. This Qayamat is called Qayamat-a-Kubra (minor qayamat), so world will keep on running after this Qayamat (lead by Imam Mehdi a.z.s.)...

Sceptical
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#20

Unread post by Sceptical » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:32 pm

السلام عليكم

I take this discussion on Imam Ismail bin Jafar / Musa Kazim to ask some questions about the schism between Mustaeli / Nizari.

What is exactly the Mustaeli's point of view? Was Nizar initialy designated as sucessor by his father?

According to the Nizari and some historians (affiliated with Nizari?) the heir of Imam Mustansir was Nizar but political intrigues led Imam Mustaeli (with the help of Badr al-Jamali) on the throne. Has Imam Mustansir billah changed his mind before his death?

I do not want unnecessary controversy, just to know the Mustaeli Tayyebi's version of this matter.

badrijanab
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#21

Unread post by badrijanab » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:09 pm

Sceptical wrote:السلام عليكم

I take this discussion on Imam Ismail bin Jafar / Musa Kazim to ask some questions about the schism between Mustaeli / Nizari.

What is exactly the Mustaeli's point of view? Was Nizar initialy designated as sucessor by his father?

According to the Nizari and some historians (affiliated with Nizari?) the heir of Imam Mustansir was Nizar but political intrigues led Imam Mustaeli (with the help of Badr al-Jamali) on the throne. Has Imam Mustansir billah changed his mind before his death?

I do not want unnecessary controversy, just to know the Mustaeli Tayyebi's version of this matter.
Imam is born as Imam. Ameer al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. was born as Wasi, Mohammed saww was not randomly picked to be designated as Prophet but was born like one. So whether it is Imam Ismail a.s. or Imam Mustali a.s. all are born as Imam - they are chosen by Allah and the previous Imam merely declare who the next Imam is. Please note: that pre destined son can br elder ot younger; age doesn't matter.

In this thread I tried to appral the attention of learned members of this forum on only following single point: All the prominent books of Ithna Asheri acknowledges that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place declared his son Molana Imam Ismail a.s. as next Imam. And Imam Jafar Sadik a.s. cannot make mistake to declare someone as Imam who was not Imam!!! Imam Sadik a.s. is masoom, he cannot make mistakes but Ithana's are not mssoom; surely they cwn err like majority went with 1/2/3 leaving the haq ie Mola Ali a.s.

humble_servant_us
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#22

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:22 am

All the prominent books of Ithna Asheri acknowledges that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place declared his son Molana Imam Ismail a.s. as next Imam
Using the word "All" itself proves you are lying.
All the prominent books of Ithna Asheri acknowledges that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place declared his son Molana Imam Ismail a.s. as next Imam. And Imam Jafar Sadik a.s. cannot make mistake to declare someone as Imam who was not Imam!!! Imam Sadik a.s. is masoom, he cannot make mistakes but Ithana's are not mssoom; surely they cwn err like majority went with 1/2/3 leaving the haq ie Mola Ali a.s.
if you are truthful provide References with page numbers.

Sceptical
Posts: 248
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Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#23

Unread post by Sceptical » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:57 am

badrijanab wrote:Imam is born as Imam. Ameer al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. was born as Wasi, Mohammed saww was not randomly picked to be designated as Prophet but was born like one. So whether it is Imam Ismail a.s. or Imam Mustali a.s. all are born as Imam - they are chosen by Allah and the previous Imam merely declare who the next Imam is. Please note: that pre destined son can br elder ot younger; age doesn't matter
Thank you for your reply.
But this was not exactly my question : i would like someone clarify what happened after Mustansir Imam death and why this controversy appeared? It seems that Imam Mustansir Billah Nuss was quite ambigious ? The few books I read tend toward more political than spiritual explanation of Mustali Imam (and Al-Afddal) claim.

I apologize for my english.

alwan
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 am

Re: How we started to believe 13th Imam.

#24

Unread post by alwan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:13 am

badrijanab wrote:
Sceptical wrote:السلام عليكم

I take this discussion on Imam Ismail bin Jafar / Musa Kazim to ask some questions about the schism between Mustaeli / Nizari.

What is exactly the Mustaeli's point of view? Was Nizar initialy designated as sucessor by his father?

According to the Nizari and some historians (affiliated with Nizari?) the heir of Imam Mustansir was Nizar but political intrigues led Imam Mustaeli (with the help of Badr al-Jamali) on the throne. Has Imam Mustansir billah changed his mind before his death?

I do not want unnecessary controversy, just to know the Mustaeli Tayyebi's version of this matter.
Imam is born as Imam. Ameer al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. was born as Wasi, Mohammed saww was not randomly picked to be designated as Prophet but was born like one. So whether it is Imam Ismail a.s. or Imam Mustali a.s. all are born as Imam - they are chosen by Allah and the previous Imam merely declare who the next Imam is. Please note: that pre destined son can br elder ot younger; age doesn't matter.

In this thread I tried to appral the attention of learned members of this forum on only following single point: All the prominent books of Ithna Asheri acknowledges that Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. in first place declared his son Molana Imam Ismail a.s. as next Imam. And Imam Jafar Sadik a.s. cannot make mistake to declare someone as Imam who was not Imam!!! Imam Sadik a.s. is masoom, he cannot make mistakes but Ithana's are not mssoom; surely they cwn err like majority went with 1/2/3 leaving the haq ie Mola Ali a.s.
I think Sceptical is trying to compare the similarities between the splits happened after Jaffer Sadiq and after Mustansir.

As Jaffer Sadiq had declared Ismail as his successor, had Mustansir declared his successor ? if yes, then who was it ?