Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

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JC
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Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#1

Unread post by JC » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:20 pm

I have repeatedly heard in bohra bayans (most recently during Moharram) that Mohammad and Ali are both EQUAL. In one bayan in Toronto it was specifically explained that if you put both on them on a weighing scale they both would be same, no more, no less.

I do not understand this - to me Mohammad was Last Prophet of God; Ali was not a prophet, so how can both be same and equal?? Why Kotharis are trying to equate Ali to Mohammad? I sense something is going to come to near future and this is just a planning phase.

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:14 pm

JC,

I am surprised that you are still attending bohra bayans knowing full well that the bohra bayans are filled with shirk and advice on how to commit shirk.

JC
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#3

Unread post by JC » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:34 pm

Sorry bro Anajmi, yes I am and there are reasons for this. I try to avoid as much as possible; I may be called hypocrite but yes there are social compulsions which I simply cannot avoid.

محمد
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#4

Unread post by محمد » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:07 pm

QURAAN itself says there is no one compared to Muhammed(s).

I take ALI as

Son in law of prophet
Sucessor of prophet (not in nubuwat, but in ilm and implimentation of shariyah of Muhammed(s))
great scholar
great warrior
great momeen
great leader
great helper (to prophet and momeenin)
great thinker
great philosopher
great fortuner
great advisor
great ruler (though I think he shoule have been more strict while dealing with muawiyah)
great judge
great father
great husband
great brother


and I learn all these qualities from him.

nothing more nothing less.

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:03 pm

Ali is a stepping stool for the taghoot Syedna and his evil progeny. If Ali is equal to Mohammed then the day is not far when the Syedna (52 or 53 or 54) declares himself as equal to the prophet too. And he will do this by debunking the literal translation of every ayah of the Quran and replacing it with his own spiritually enlightened taawil!!

Bohra spring
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#6

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:06 am

anajmi wrote:Ali is a stepping stool for the taghoot Syedna and his evil progeny. If Ali is equal to Mohammed then the day is not far when the Syedna (52 or 53 or 54) declares himself as equal to the prophet too. And he will do this by debunking the literal translation of every ayah of the Quran and replacing it with his own spiritually enlightened taawil!!
I hope some of us mean that Bohras claim Ali is equal to so and so....the respected Hazrat never meant it or claimed .

Some Shia Sunni followers forget this difference in our arguments. Ali was Wasi, Imam and Khalifa for all Muslims.

In our discussions we should separate the ideology which can be incorrect from the person who lived and passed away 14 centuries ago.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#7

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:21 am

The positions of these two personalities should be well understood as the DBs as well as many shias are accused of considering both of them as one. However, as for me being a bohri and a passionate lover of Maula ali (A.S), I find it very simple to understand. To well understand the relationship between two let us examine it both ways, Zahir as in history and in the eyes of Quran as well. If we study history, its a unanimous agreement that Maula Ali (A.S) was the cousin of Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H), Son in Law, the First male to accept Islam and respond to the prophets call. The only person to sleep in Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H)'s bed during hijrat, and there are many things in history we know about them. BUT... now comes the most controversial part of considering them as one. In Sunni sect they have no concept of Imam as the shias do. However Quran clearly states Imam and titles Abraham (A.S) as the Imam. Hence we see two positions, the one being the Prophethood and the other as Imamate. A hadith of Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) states that "From the Abraham came the Covenant of GOD to the house of Abdul Muttalib, I was granted Prophethood and Ali was granted with Imamate. Even in Quran it is clearly mentioned that Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) is none but a messenger and there is a guide for every people. Some consider this guide as the Quran, but its even fact that Quran is the context not a detailed book which tell u everything. So this concludes that mankind will always need someone to lead them to the true path in the light of Quran. And as Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) said about the two Weighty things on Ghadeer E Khum is a clear fact of what to follow and keep hold on.
Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) and Ali (A.S) both are different in positions, but the best man on earth after Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) is undoubtedly Ali (A.S) as a hadith states that Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) said: The best man in my nation after me is Ali (A.S). Dont mix Prophethood and Imamate.. Both are differnt assigned to diffrnt people. And those who compare these positions. Do u really think Ali (A.S) would wish to compare himself to Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H)... Nauzobillah..

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:49 am

So this concludes that mankind will always need someone to lead them to the true path in the light of Quran.
However, since there is no "Imam" from the "Ahlul Bayt" existing today to fulfill this role, this conclusion is obviously erroneous.

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#9

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:01 am

Quraan stands for itself, and with common sense and good intention each and every ayat of QURAAN can be understood and followed independently.

Aymelek
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#10

Unread post by Aymelek » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:03 am

JC wrote:....in bohra bayans (most recently during Moharram) that Mohammad and Ali are both EQUAL.
JC wrote: Why Kotharis are trying to equate Ali to Mohammad?
Bohras belief is based on the below hadith of the Prophet:
“Ana wa Aliyyin min Noorin Wahid”
(I and Ali are from one Noor)

Further, Quranic verses of Mubahala are used to strengthen this arguement, where it says:

3:61 - Then whoever argues with you about it after [this] knowledge has come to you - say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then supplicate earnestly [together] and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars [among us]."

Here the emphasis is laid on the word used in 3:61:17 - أنفسنا (ourselves) which included Muhammad & Ali both as the same self / nafs.

Having said that Bohra wayezeen do elaborate that Muhammad is a Prophet and Ali is his wasi. They give an example of two sides of the same coin. This distinction of Prophethood & Imamate (as Br. Silvertongue said) should never be undermined. Ali had always announced himself to be a servant of Allah and his Messenger.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#11

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:04 am

incredible wrote:Quraan stands for itself, and with common sense and good intention each and every ayat of QURAAN can be understood and followed independently.
Give me one Ayat thats says how to pray Namaz, How to give Zakat, how to Fast and how to do Hajj. Dont try to seperate Quran and Ahlul Bayt, they are one till Qayamat. For more reference on this see the Hadith E Thaqlain..

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#12

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:13 am

silvertongue wrote:
incredible wrote:Quraan stands for itself, and with common sense and good intention each and every ayat of QURAAN can be understood and followed independently.
Give me one Ayat thats says how to pray Namaz, How to give Zakat, how to Fast and how to do Hajj. Dont try to seperate Quran and Ahlul Bayt, they are one till Qayamat. For more reference on this see the Hadith E Thaqlain..
you dont even know what actual namaaz is.

and namaaz what we follow is "following action of what prophet did"

there is no authentic way of reading namaaz.

for every one it can be different.

I can pray namaz every second of my life without performing physical rituals, and some body can read 1000 "physical namaaz" which is not even counted in book of ALLAH.

so its a deeper thing, comes with spiritual Enlightenment
Last edited by incredible on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#13

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:13 am

Here the emphasis is laid on the word used in 3:61:17 - أنفسنا (ourselves) which included Muhammad & Ali both as the same self / nafs.
I totally agree with it and not only me, Its a unanimous agreement by all the sects of islam as this marked a very important event in the history against the christians. A hadith even states that," Allah created Mohammed and Ali 70000 years before Adam." Undoubtedly Ali (A.S) position is exalted but after the Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h), not above him.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#14

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:18 am

you dont even know what actual namaaz is.

and namaaz what we follow is "following action of what prophet did"

there is no authentic way of reading namaaz.

for every one it can be different.
Thats the most illogical reply ever. You can simply say that u dont have the answer. Ali (A.S) himself said that: One who claims that he knows everything is a fool. Anyways, Do u knw why Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) told muslims never to seperate Quran and Ahlul Bayt. Coz if Quran is the context, then the Ahlul Bayt are the live description after the Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h). Think this once, who followed the most authentic ways of Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h), who are the most closest to Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h). who are the kin whose love (acc to Quran) is wajib for all the muslims. Who are the purified ones (33:33) and still some keep thinking Why Ali (A.s) & Why Ahlul Bayt... Think from heart. Not from mind.. Coz mind is all about reason and with reason you cannot feel the existance of Allah.... Only the heart see it.. Hope this helped you brother.

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#15

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:22 am

silvertongue wrote:
you dont even know what actual namaaz is.

and namaaz what we follow is "following action of what prophet did"

there is no authentic way of reading namaaz.

for every one it can be different.
Thats the most illogical reply ever. You can simply say that u dont have the answer. Ali (A.S) himself said that: One who claims that he knows everything is a fool. Anyways, Do u knw why Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) told muslims never to seperate Quran and Ahlul Bayt. Coz if Quran is the context, then the Ahlul Bayt are the live description after the Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h). Think this once, who followed the most authentic ways of Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h), who are the most closest to Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h). who are the kin whose love (acc to Quran) is wajib for all the muslims. Who are the purified ones (33:33) and still some keep thinking Why Ali (A.s) & Why Ahlul Bayt... Think from heart. Not from mind.. Coz mind is all about reason and with reason you cannot feel the existance of Allah.... Only the heart see it.. Hope this helped you brother.
when did I ever said I know every thing?

btw did you ever thought why such an importaant pillar of ISLAAM which is namaaz not even mentioned in QURAAN with an authentic way?

while ALLAH talks about

dog
spider
and cow milk?

because it has deeper meanings which are known to few lucky one.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#16

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:24 am

while ALLAH talks about

dog
spider
and cow milk?

because it has deeper meanings which are known to few .
incredible

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Absolutely correct.. And where will u get all these meanings ?.. From whom.? Whom will u ask ?.. Im sure it wont be any mullas..

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#17

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:26 am

any ways, I am not allowed neither I plan to discuss about these subjecs more in public.

so just hope ALLAH will give hidaya to those who sincerely look for it.

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#18

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:26 am

silvertongue wrote:
while ALLAH talks about

dog
spider
and cow milk?

because it has deeper meanings which are known to few .
incredible

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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:14 am
Absolutely correct.. And where will u get all these meanings ?.. From whom.? Whom will u ask ?.. Im sure it wont be any mullas..
QURAAN who else.

and follow the sunnah.

what I was trying to say is, NAMAAZ has deeper meaning other than famously known physical rituals.
Last edited by incredible on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#19

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:27 am

Same here.. I hope you find your answers too.. :-)... Peace...

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#20

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:37 am

QURAAN who else.

and follow the sunnah.
Quran, same answer.. No definite ways to do things. Reason: God has send a leader among mankind to follow to in the light of Quran. And sunnah: 72 sects of muslims and everyone thinks theyr on the right path. I personally find it very easy to follow coz things are very clear to me.. Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h)'s sunnah is best presented by none other than ALI (A.S). No wonder he is Baab E Madintaul Ilm. The excellent Nahjul Balagha is a clear proof of it.. This is how I see things my way:

Quran says pray Namaz, How: Follow the way of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h).. Not sure enough: Follow the way of Ali (A.S).

Quran says pay Zakat, How: Follow the way of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h).. Not sure enough: Follow the way of Ali (A.S).

Quran says pray Hajj, How: Follow the way of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h).. Not sure enough: Follow the way of Ali (A.S).

Quran says keep Fast, How: Follow the way of Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h).. Not sure enough: Follow the way of Ali (A.S).

And so far.. Iev improved my character alot.. Helping the needy even in my rough times seemed very honorable and thankful to Allah (SWT). That I learned from Ali (A.S). having faith in dark times, managing anger.. That i learned from Ali.. And it would take forever if i keep writing on of what I learned from Maula ALI (A.S). Coz Maula Ali (A.S) is none other than Mazharul Ajaib. He is the soul of Allah's beloved Prophet..

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#21

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:39 am

what I was trying to say is, NAMAAZ has deeper meaning other than famously known physical rituals.
Brother I agree what you say here.. Every step has its meaning.. Its a cylce of Submission, Life, Death, Afterlife.. And many other deep meanings which are not mentioned in Quran in zahir.. To know all these.. One must find a very authentic source to secure his own knlwedge and acts.

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#22

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:44 am

silvertongue wrote:
what I was trying to say is, NAMAAZ has deeper meaning other than famously known physical rituals.
Brother I agree what you say here.. Every step has its meaning.. Its a cylce of Submission, Life, Death, Afterlife.. And many other deep meanings which are not mentioned in Quran in zahir.. To know all these.. One must find a very authentic source to secure his own knlwedge and acts.
and that source is QURAAN itself.

and nothing else is authentic after 1400 years of ISLAAM coming.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#23

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:51 am

Then show me how many Rakats should I pray in Magrib and Isha.. According to Quran.

محمد
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#24

Unread post by محمد » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:00 am

silvertongue wrote:Then show me how many Rakats should I pray in Magrib and Isha.. According to Quran.
you can pray just 1 rakaat, but if u want to follow sunnah of Muhammed(s) then pray 3 in maghrib and 4 in Isha.

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:25 am

People keep shouting that they follow Ali, but do you know if Ali ever said "Aliyun Waliyullah" in his namaz?

According to the Ali "lovers" Ali led a life of deceit with the first 3 khalifas. In nahjul balagha there is a sermon about Ali ordering 5 separate salaahs at 5 separate times. But the Ali "lovers" claim that this was only to fool the followers of the first 3 khalifas. If this is the kind of example that Ali is setting for others, then I better not follow Ali. Who knows what else he did to fool others!

By the way, I do not believe Ali was fooling anyone. His "lovers" are only fooling themselves.

incredible,

Please stop talking. You are just as ignorant as others over here. Please do not make idiotic statements like "there is no authentic way of reading namaz".

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:50 am

you can pray just 1 rakaat, but if u want to follow sunnah of Muhammed(s) then pray 3 in maghrib and 4 in Isha.
Praying 3 raka in maghrib and 4 in Isha is not sunnah. It is fard. There are other 2/4 raka namaz designated as sunnah. Do not mix the two. If you pray just 1 raka then you have not completed your fard. Where do you get these ideas from? There was one other guy who said he has no issue with people praying with their hands folded over their heads and with one leg resting on the other knee in yogi fashion!! Did Jibraeel come to you with these ideas? Prophet (saw) commanded his sahabas to pray as he prayed. One of his sahabas is Ali. He has recorded the number of rakas to be prayed. Daimul Islam has recorded the number of rakas. The 6 authentic sunnah books also record the number of raka and you say 1 raka is ok from where?

true_bohra
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#27

Unread post by true_bohra » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:57 am

@ incredible:
You yourself claimed that Namaaz has deeper meanings yet you do not accept the way of reading it.

You always blow a trumpet that you speak with reference to Qur'aan. Dont you see that Allah mentions the Ruk'uu and Sujood in the Qur'aan. Why would it be if there is no proper way of praying namaaz.

Well to add to this, some one in previous post mentioned about namaaz having meaning to life and after life. Yes every action of Namaz is pointing to some important subject.

You see namaz is also based on "harkat" and "sakanat" that means you have to undergo each cycle that rest after every action.

So namaz is perfect in all aspects and do not try to put your own conclusions in to it as anajmi also advised you.

محمد
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#28

Unread post by محمد » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:27 pm

anajmi wrote:People keep shouting that they follow Ali, but do you know if Ali ever said "Aliyun Waliyullah" in his namaz?

According to the Ali "lovers" Ali led a life of deceit with the first 3 khalifas. In nahjul balagha there is a sermon about Ali ordering 5 separate salaahs at 5 separate times. But the Ali "lovers" claim that this was only to fool the followers of the first 3 khalifas. If this is the kind of example that Ali is setting for others, then I better not follow Ali. Who knows what else he did to fool others!

By the way, I do not believe Ali was fooling anyone. His "lovers" are only fooling themselves.

incredible,

Please stop talking. You are just as ignorant as others over here. Please do not make idiotic statements like "there is no authentic way of reading namaz".

all hadith were written after 400 years and QURAAN itself doesnt speaks about any perfect way of reading namaz, now go and figure out what is namaz.

and as far as books like muslim and bukhari is concern, u should drink camel piss every time u wake up and catch cold.

incredible
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#29

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:32 pm

anajmi wrote:
you can pray just 1 rakaat, but if u want to follow sunnah of Muhammed(s) then pray 3 in maghrib and 4 in Isha.
Praying 3 raka in maghrib and 4 in Isha is not sunnah. It is fard. There are other 2/4 raka namaz designated as sunnah. Do not mix the two. If you pray just 1 raka then you have not completed your fard. Where do you get these ideas from? There was one other guy who said he has no issue with people praying with their hands folded over their heads and with one leg resting on the other knee in yogi fashion!! Did Jibraeel come to you with these ideas? Prophet (saw) commanded his sahabas to pray as he prayed. One of his sahabas is Ali. He has recorded the number of rakas to be prayed. Daimul Islam has recorded the number of rakas. The 6 authentic sunnah books also record the number of raka and you say 1 raka is ok from where?
you just lost your respect, but any ways this post shows u are still in your tiny space of physical rituals which billion muslims-bohra-shia performs yet they are not spirituaally guided nor they know what they doing.

but aany ways as I said I am not even suppose to discuss such sensitive subjects in public, which are beyond understanding of people.

so my last word on this topic is:

as QURAAN itself doesnt speaks clearly about way of namaz, pray namaz as per way shown by prophet, that would be the best.

محمد
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#30

Unread post by محمد » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:48 pm

incredible wrote:
anajmi wrote: Praying 3 raka in maghrib and 4 in Isha is not sunnah. It is fard. There are other 2/4 raka namaz designated as sunnah. Do not mix the two. If you pray just 1 raka then you have not completed your fard. Where do you get these ideas from? There was one other guy who said he has no issue with people praying with their hands folded over their heads and with one leg resting on the other knee in yogi fashion!! Did Jibraeel come to you with these ideas? Prophet (saw) commanded his sahabas to pray as he prayed. One of his sahabas is Ali. He has recorded the number of rakas to be prayed. Daimul Islam has recorded the number of rakas. The 6 authentic sunnah books also record the number of raka and you say 1 raka is ok from where?
you just lost your respect, but any ways this post shows u are still in your tiny space of physical rituals which billion muslims-bohra-shia performs yet they are not spirituaally guided nor they know what they doing.

but any ways as I said I am not even suppose to discuss such sensitive subjects in public, which are beyond understanding of people.

so my last word on this topic is:

as QURAAN itself doesnt speaks clearly about way of namaz, pray namaz as per way shown by prophet, that would be the best.