Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

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salim
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#91

Unread post by salim » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:09 pm

anajmi wrote:Let us not hide our issues behind the garb of "Allah will judge" and the rest of the rhetoric you posted.
I personally have never heard of this book before here and I think neither Muhammad nor Ali had any magical power. I think it is Muslims relationship with them, and their trust in Allah that Allah has send Muhammad and Ali as blessing make them see miracles.

On the other hand I think they have all rights to understand religion as Allah guides them. Which may be very opposite of what i see, but this is between them and Allah..

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#92

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:35 am

I personally have never heard of this book before here and I think neither Muhammad nor Ali had any magical power.
Whatever comes is from Allah and we accept it without any questions or ifs and buts. Questions can be asked for the sake of learning knowledge from it.

JC
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#93

Unread post by JC » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:19 pm

My logic remains simple - In Islam Prophet Mohammad is Last Prophet and has Great Importance; no one is considered equal to him. Correct??

Bohras however 'claim' that Mohammad and Ali are both EQUAL ......... they both have been created by same 'NOOR' ........ the famous thing they repeat again and again is that 'you keep Mohammad on one side of scale and Ali on other and you will see them exact equal, no less no more' ............... what does this imply and infer??

Prophethood is something EACH and EVERY Muslim accepts; Imamat is accepted by only 20%, so are we saying collective wisdom and knowledge of 80% is less than that of 20% (please I am NOT trying to invoke democracy or 'majority card here).

Ali is Great, AGREED, but Mohammad is Greatest ....!!!

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#94

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:50 pm

JC wrote:Ali is Great, AGREED, but Mohammad is Greatest ....!!!
I fully agree to the above quote and like other questions that you have raised, we also need to know the 'hikmat' behind the bayan which says that when Prophet (s.a.w.) descended to Heaven during Mairaj and kissed Allah's hand he saw that it was Mola Ali's hand !!! There are many such examples wherein the vayezins deliberately confuse people by putting Mola Ali (a.s.) on a much higher pedestal then Prophet (s.a.w.).

morela
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#95

Unread post by morela » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:23 am

GM, this is a very frequent story \rumour being spread about Ali's hand. The fact is that these are nusairi beliefs and the modern shia all of them except zaidis are Nusairis descendents , Nusairis hid their real beliefs or even diluted them to avoid prosecution from Ali himself.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#96

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:40 am

No one can represent Nabi a.s. better than Ali a.s. and that history has proved. Further regarding the equality, dont get confused in positions. Nabi a.s. said that I & Ali a.s. were created 70000 years before Adam, this event is mentioned in the Tarikh of Sahih Al Bukhari as well. What we need to understand here is the designation given to both of them. Nabi a.s. was granted Prophethood (Messenger of GOD) and his task was simple, DELIVER Islam to the world. whereas Imamate is somewhat different and its mentioned in Quran about the designation of Imam and how Allah choses the Imam of the nation.

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (Quran 2-124)

This Ayat states that the Line of Ibrahim will continue with the Imamat and that is upto Allah how to give Imamat to the fellow person. HE HAS PROMISED, that Imamat will not reach to the evil-doers. We all know that Nabi a.s. and Ali a.s. both are from the direct line of Ibrahim and everyone is well aware of the merits of Both of them. One was granted Prophethood and the other Imamate..

13:7
And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

In this Ayat Allah talks about 2 things, Warner and guide. If a warner is a guide then there is no need to mention it twice. But the beauty of Quran is that whenever things are highlighted or spoken separately it means something of utmost importance. Some may take guide as Quran, and they should after all Quran is the ultimate guide for a muslim, BUT as we know Quran doesn't answer all the questions, rather its in context. Hence we need someone to preach and make us understand the Quran.

I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63

So to best understand the Quran no one comes near to Ahlul Bayt as they are the keepers of the knowledge of Allah swt. The designation of Prophethood and Imamate are different.

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#97

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:01 pm

this event is mentioned in the Tarikh of Sahih Al Bukhari as well.
Can you post from Tarikh of Sahih Al Bukhari? Or post a reference to it? A link perhaps?
This Ayat states that the Line of Ibrahim will continue with the Imamat and that is upto Allah how to give Imamat to the fellow person.
Actually, it doesn't say anything like that.
13:7
And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
The guide in this ayah is Allah himself. In Surah Fateh, we are asking Allah to guide us to the straight path. Not the Imams!!

For a few centuries, the Imams and the ahlul bayt have deserted the bohras. The Imams are today with the Ismailis (Aga Khan) and even the Sunnis (king Abdullah of Jordan), but no Imam for the bohras. Pity!!

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#98

Unread post by silvertongue » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:33 am

I too wonder the current state of the community man. Things have got worse with Muffi on the seat. Its not that Imams deserted bohras. But on the contrary Bohras deserted the Imam and now its all mola mola..blah blah blah... Its a real pity id agree.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#99

Unread post by silvertongue » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:46 am

The Tarikh of Bukhari is hard to find online but I have a copy at home from which I will post later, but here are some of the other references:

The Holy Prophet sawas. said,
"Fourteen thousand years before Adam, upon whom be peace, was created, I and Ali (a.s.) were a Light in the presence of God. When God created Adam, upon whom be peace, He divided it into two parts. I am one of the parts and Ali (a.s.) is the other part."

Sunni Refernces:
Al Muhibb al Tabari narrates this tradition on the authority of Salman from the Prophet (sawas.) in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 163:
Ahmad ibn Hanbal in al Fada'il;
Sibt ibn al Jawzi in Tadhkirat Alآ­khawass, 46;
Abu Hatim Muhammad ibn Idris al Razi in Zayn al Fata fi tafsir Surat Hal ata, MS.;
Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Zawaid manaqib Amir al Muminin, MS.,
This tradition has also been narrated by also Ibn Mardawayh, Ibn Abd al Barr, al Khatib al Baghdadi, Ibn al Maghazili, al-Asimi, Shiruyah al Daylami and others from Imam Ali , Salman , Abu Dharr , Anas ibn Malik , Jabir ibn Abd Allah and other Companions.

The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Ali (AS) preceded the
creation of Adam (AS):

Salman al-Farsi (RA) narrated that:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I myself, and
Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years
(14,000) before He created Adam (AS). When Allah created Adam
(AS) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one
part Ali."

Sunni References:
- Mizan Al-Ei'tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
- History of Ibn Asakir

bohrikaka
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#100

Unread post by bohrikaka » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:40 am

and what is the straight path ?

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#101

Unread post by silvertongue » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:28 am

"Wa dara al-haqq ma’ahu haithu dar", literally: "And the truth (the right path) turns with him (i.e. ‘Ali) wherever way he turns."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the commentary of "al-Bismilah"

The Messenger of God said: "O God, have Thy Mercy on ‘Ali. O God, make the right and the truth with ‘Ali in all situations."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#102

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:11 am

instead of giving me the link/reference I asked for, you give me three more references and again without any links to verify them. Unfortunately, I cannot verify any of the references you have given.
The Messenger of God said: "O God, have Thy Mercy on ‘Ali. O God, make the right and the truth with ‘Ali in all situations."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297
I wasn't able to find this in Sahih al-Tirmidhi.

Here is a link to the collection of Al Tirmidhi. Please find the above and post the link.

http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi

Do the same with the other references that you provided. If you have a book, then scan the page and post it over here for us.
"Wa dara al-haqq ma’ahu haithu dar", literally: "And the truth (the right path) turns with him (i.e. ‘Ali) wherever way he turns."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the commentary of "al-Bismilah"
I wasn't able to find this either.

morela
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#103

Unread post by morela » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:24 am

Anajmi i have seen. Umpteen cases of such intellectual dishonesty where these ISNA ashari propaganda sites gives either incorrect references or change the wordings of the correctly referenced ones. For me they are worse then christian missionaries.

morela
Posts: 183
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#104

Unread post by morela » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:40 am

I found a similar narration which is NOT SAHIH but daeef , hence NOT IN SAHIH tirmidhi:

Narrated 'Ali bin Abi Talib:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "May Allah have mercy upon Abu Bakr, he married me to his daughter, and he carried me to the land of Hijrah, and he freed Bilal with his wealth. May Allah have mercy upon 'Umar, he says the truth even if it is sour. The truth caused him to be left without a friend. May Allah have mercy upon 'Uthman, the angels are shy of him. May Allah have mercy upon 'Ali. O Allah! Place the truth with him wherever he turns."
Grade : Da'if (Darussalam)


http://sunnah.com/urn/635930

Also see how they half quote hadith to try to deceive gullible people like silvertounge.


Advise for silvertonge:
search tips:
want to do proximity searches i.e Ali and truth within 5 words then enter following query:

"ali truth"~5

http://sunnah.com/search/-dq-ali-truth-dq-~5

anajmi
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#105

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:32 pm

Also see how they half quote hadith to try to deceive gullible people like silvertounge.
I do not believe silvertounge to be gullible. He is in fact actively propagating this falsehood.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#106

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:16 am

Nop. Im a victim of this false reference as well anajmi. Although the Hadith is not false as I found that in Jami at Tirmidhi in the Chapters of Al Manaqib, Virtues of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hadiths from 3713-3736..

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#107

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:20 am

Im a follower of Aal E Mohammed, Id never support falsehood even if it praises anyone. The first reference that I gave was indeed false which I agreed. However, there are many Hadiths in the 6th vol. which I already have in my dropbox so its easier to find.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#108

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:27 am

And speaking of being judgmental, I cant be like you Anajmi and dont want to be. Thats against my principles. I am proud of my belief and dont even care what any Tom Dick & Harry thinks of me. Some people are like ROCKs. No matter how hard you try to beat it, its nothing.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#109

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:39 am

@Morela, How can the Hadith be Sahih if its about Ali Ibn Abi Talib in sunni books.. That everyone is aware of. The irony is its still mentioned there. I found it surprising sometimes. But thanx I finally got it. So its clear enough for me. Whereas its upto you to follow the path of Ali or not. Cheerio..

Noor Bapa

Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#110

Unread post by Noor Bapa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:41 am

ST
Whereas its upto you to follow the path of Ali or not.
Can you describe "The path of Ali"?

How it is different from "The path of Muhammad"?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adam ko Khuda mat kaho, Adam Khuda nahi,
lekin
Khuda ke NOOR se Adam Juda nahi
Last edited by Noor Bapa on Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#111

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:45 am

Who said its different?... They are the same. But to reach the path of Mohammed a.s. you need to go through Ali a.s.

"I am the City of Knowledge and Ali a.s. is its gate, Those who wish to enter the city should enter through its gate"..

Let me ask you one thing?. DO U TRULY LOVE ALI..a.s. coz if you dont then you are a Hypocrite according to
Hadith 3717 Vol.6 Tirmidhi.

Noor Bapa

Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#112

Unread post by Noor Bapa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:07 am

silvertongue wrote:Who said its different?... They are the same. But to reach the path of Mohammed a.s. you need to go through Ali a.s.

First describe what is Path of Ali?
Show me a Aya from Quran where it says I have to worship Allah thru Muhammad, Ali, Gaib- Hiding or Hazir Imam Dai or Saint?


"I am the City of Knowledge and Ali a.s. is its gate, Those who wish to enter the city should enter through its gate"..
I live in "city of Knowledge" that is Quran and Sunna of Prophet (S). It has no gates.

Let me ask you one thing?. DO U TRULY LOVE ALI..a.s. coz if you dont then you are a Hypocrite according to
Hadith 3717 Vol.6 Tirmidhi.
To be good Muslim you do not have to love or hate anybody. Love for Allah, his book and his Rasul is sufficient.
Why do hate certain Sahabas?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam ko Khuda mat kaho, Adam Khuda nahi,
lekin
Khuda ke NOOR se Adam Juda nahi

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#113

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:10 am

Quran is not specific in many things brother. I am not wasting my time explaining all that stuff to you now. And if you are eager to know then search my name and you will find my posts with all these REPEATED answers overall this forum. "Adam bana hi Mohammed aur Ali ke noor se hai".. :-)

Noor Bapa

Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#114

Unread post by Noor Bapa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:29 am

ST
. "Adam bana hi Mohammed aur Ali ke noor se hai".
Prove it from Quran

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#115

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:56 am

Prove... Lolz.. If you are so confident prove that,"Where in Quran its written that you have to pray namaz 5 times a day and every namaz has so and so rakats". As I said Quran is NOT enough to understand as its in CONTEXT... Deal with it bro, its fact.. Allah knew that there are people (like u) who would forsake his beloved messenger and his authorities on earth if he wrote everything clearly in the Quran. If you so believe in Quran, then why not obey whats been ordered by Rasullah as well, COZ Nabi a.s. never spoke out of his own will, HE a.s. always spoke what was ordered by Allah swt..

Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed, Taught to him by one intense in strength - One of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form While he was in the higher [part of the] horizon. Then he approached and descended (Quran 53: 1-8).

And if you still dont believe this then... May Allah guide you..

silvertongue
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Re: Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

#116

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:59 am

What can I expect from the followers of Umar l.a. he was the one who use to poke his nose in the matters of Nabi a.s. prove this and prove that. Ran away from every battles. Even as a Caliph he failed decisions.. No wonder you guys favor him so much.. He is so much like u..