Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

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sumi
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:27 am

Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#1

Unread post by sumi » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:00 am

Many a times I see this argument that Haroon a.s is a wasi, here is my explanation:

After Musa A.S went to Tur for 40 days then Haroon was NOT A WASI but a prophet him self.
Quran clearly says that HAROON A.S was a prophet whereas we know ALI a.s is not a prophet

quran 19.053 And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him(MOSES) his brother Aaron,as a prophet.

There is no disagreement that Haroon died before Musa…and (Haroon) was not a successor after him (Musa), for the successor (to Musa) was Yusha bin Noon (i.e. Joshua), so if he (the Prophet) wanted by his saying (to grant Ali) the Caliphate, he would have said “you will be to me like Yusha was to Musa”, so when he didn’t say this it proved that he didn’t want that meaning, but he (simply) wanted that “you are my deputy over my family in my life and my absence from my family, like Haroon was deputy of Musa over his people when he left to speak to his Lord.”

Prophet Haroon and his lineage were prohibited by the Law of Musa to take executive roles, but they were instead limited to religious, spiritual, and ceremonial roles. It was Prophet Yusha (Joshua) who became the Caliph (successor) of Musa, not Prophet Haroon nor his descendants. Throughout the Caliphate of the Shaykhayn and Uthman, Ali remained a spiritual guide for the people. Similar is the case with many of the Imams of the Shia, who secluded themselves from any temporal role and instead remained as spiritual guides.

Had the Prophet wished to imply that Ali was his successor, then he would have likened Ali to Prophet Yusha rather than Prophet Haroon. Instead, the Prophet likened Ali to Prophet Haroon whose role was not that of a temporal ruler but that of a spiritual guide.

But even if we were to accept the fallacious idea that every Messenger had a Wasi, then we respond to the Shia by saying that Prophet Muhammad had no Wasi because he was the final seal and nobody came after him. The Quran mentions that the Prophet is the Final Seal, and nowhere does it mention any Wasi that is to come after him. The one who believes in such a thing as Wasi and who exalts the position of Wasi over and above Nubuwwah and Risala is a disbeliever and outside the folds of Islam. How is that such a fundamental belief of the Shia is missing from the Quran? If a Wasi was to come after the Prophet, then surely this would be noteworthy enough to mention in the Quran! Instead, we find absolutely no mention of this concept in the Quran and instead it is an invention of the disbelievers.

What is interesting is that so many of our own Sunni laypersons get stumped by this question that the Shia propagandists pose, but in reality the answer is extremely intuitive and obvious: nobody came after Prophet Muhammad and he is the last in the divinely appointed figures sent by Allah. This difference between the mainstream Muslims and the Shia is actually the crux of the difference between the two groups: the mainstream Muslims believe in the absolute finality of Prophethood and feel that the belief in a Wasi after Prophet Muhammad is therefore blasphemous.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#2

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:42 pm

Waiting for JHOOT no 2

badrijanab
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#3

Unread post by badrijanab » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:48 am

"Wasi" means authorised person.

Haroon was made as authorised person in non-present of Moosa a.s.

Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is the final Prophet dogma is accepted in spirit and words by Fatimi Dawat. However a Prophet can appoint an authorised person who will be authority in his non-presence. Can't he? So Ameer-al-Mumineen Mola Ali a.s. is not the Prophet but the authorised person in matter of Islam in absence of/after Mohammed s.a.w.w.

Jhooth #1: Awwal, Sani and Salis are not authorised by Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. to represent Islam or be authority of Islam to make/amend Shariyat-a-Mohammadi. So trio self-appointment as authority of Islam is indeed the Jhooth # 1.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#4

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:37 pm

badrijanab wrote:"Wasi" means authorised person.

Haroon was made as authorised person in non-present of Moosa a.s.

Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is the final Prophet dogma is accepted in spirit and words by Fatimi Dawat. However a Prophet can appoint an authorised person who will be authority in his non-presence. Can't he? So Ameer-al-Mumineen Mola Ali a.s. is not the Prophet but the authorised person in matter of Islam in absence of/after Mohammed s.a.w.w.

Jhooth #1: Awwal, Sani and Salis are not authorised by Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. to represent Islam or be authority of Islam to make/amend Shariyat-a-Mohammadi. So trio self-appointment as authority of Islam is indeed the Jhooth # 1.
No need for authorized person after Prophet.

Just by saying " Ali is Maula of those whose I am Maula" is not enough.
You need clear Nass.
You need Quranic command saying need for Imams after Demise of last Prophet.

Brother BJ
Show Such Quranic Ayas.
Take Quran Challange.

badrijanab
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#5

Unread post by badrijanab » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:21 pm

No need for authorized person after Prophet.
Quran 4:59 - O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Just by saying " Ali is Maula of those whose I am Maula" is not enough.
You need clear Nass.
Has Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said same/similar about 1/2/3? No. But he did said same for Mola Ali a.s. which can be vetted from Sunni's own books.

Was their any clear nuss on 1/2/3? No.

Before the event of "Gadeer-a-khum" all pillars of Islam were revealed but still Allah has not said, "Islam is complete." It was only after the event of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. pronouncing that "Ali is Mola to all whom I am Mola" - after this event Allah sent aayat: Now Islam is complete. Thus this is the proof of clear nuss.
You need Quranic command saying need for Imams after Demise of last Prophet.
Sura Maryam, Chapter 19, Verse 96 & 97: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will ((Allah)) Most Gracious bestow love. So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.

Refer underlined red text above: believers resides in different geographies and does have their own tongue / native language. But Quran is only in Arabic and not in the own tongue of believers!!!

There has to be one authorised person in every era who can speak in native language of anyone across geographies, across time. This person is called Imam. That is why it is said: Imam is "bolt Quran" and Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said, I am leaving two strong thing behind me, one is Quran and second is my Itrat (the Fatimi Imam's). They will always be together.

So Sura 19:96-97 is proof from book Quran that Imam is always needed in all time otherwise this aayat turns false. This aayat also shows us way: how to recognise if a claimant of Imam is really the Imam - test him if he can speak different tongue. The Aga Khani Imam cannot!!!

Quran says, "Zalikal kitaab laraybafeeh....": Zalika means "that" and Haaza means "this". Quran says "that" Quran is undoubtedly right and error free = Imam. So Imam = bolt Quran is vetted by the book Quran.

Brother BJ
Show Such Quranic Ayas.
Take Quran Challange.
Brother MF
I've shown Quranic aayats.
I nullified your challenge. Now take challenge above and you can seek help of all who are like you, still you all put together will fail.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

I have just received news from NASA that the hidden Imam has been located on the 1st of the New Moon. He will rely on NASA to tell him when the new moon is so he can come from the horizon and descend on Saifee Mahal to declare the rightful Dai. He will be bolting Quran while descending and he will be bolting Quran in Arabic. :wink:

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:00 pm

Badrijanab says following Ayat is proof that authorized imam from Ahlul Bait is needed to explain Quran "in thine tongue" as per
Sura Maryam, Chapter 19, Verse 96 & 97: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will ((Allah)) Most Gracious bestow love. So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.
First question is who is Authorized imam in your neck of wood.

Out of 1.2 B Muslims, There are probably thousands Muslim speak and understand "thine own tongue". We have few in Boson, including convert Imam Suheb Webb.

Now please find me Aya which says Authorized Imam from Progeny of Ali-Fatema will be needed.

shehzaada
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:04 pm

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#8

Unread post by shehzaada » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:38 pm

and this too

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#9

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:59 am

his difference between the mainstream Muslims and the Shia is actually the crux of the difference between the two groups: the mainstream Muslims believe in the absolute finality of Prophethood and feel that the belief in a Wasi after Prophet Muhammad is therefore blasphemous.
Shias believe in the absolute finality of Prophethood. After the prophet(pbuh) there is no prophet and there will be revelation. Imam Ali(as) is the Khalifah/Imam/leader of the ummah after the prophet(pbuh) divinely appointed by Allah(swt).

The famous hadith of Ghadeer- "To whomsoever I am the Master, Ali is his master". Ali(as) inherits the wilaya which is incumbent on us towards the prophet(pbuh).

Peace
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:46 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#10

Unread post by Peace » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:33 am

Dear badrijanab,

This is a sincere question please don't take it wrong.

If Ali A.S. was a successor after Prophet Muhammad PBUH then why Ali A.S. didn't object and fight (or any riwayat) for his position? Because then everybody would know that he is a successor and Muslim ummah could be rightly guided and Muslim ummah have to follow him in order to get salvation?

If there is any thing wrong then please correct me.

May Allah SWT guide us and keep us on Siraat e Mustaqeem. Aameen.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#11

Unread post by JC » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:23 am

Bro Peace,

Add two more questions - WHY Ali named this sons after Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman in the same sequence? Why Ali gave his daughter in marriage to Umer??

BJ can argue Ali did not fight back to 'save' ummah from division ......... this is flimsy because his 'not fighting' did not save Ummah, correct?

shehzaada
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:04 pm

Re: JHOOT # 1: Har nabi ka wasi hota hai

#12

Unread post by shehzaada » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:08 pm

JC: If Ali a.s were to come down he would most certainly be not just killed but lynched by Shias themselves.