Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

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SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#1

Unread post by SBM » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:30 pm

Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqNckjlWk1g

Some Excertps
Against this background, let me move on to the broad international sphere, including the role of relations between the countries and cultures of Islam — what we call the Ummah — and non-Islamic societies. It is central to the shape of global affairs in our time.
I would begin by emphasising a central point about the Ummah often unseen elsewhere: the fundamental fact of its immense diversity. Muslim demography has expanded dramatically in recent years, and Muslims today have highly differing views on many questions. Essential among them is that they do not share some common, overarching impression of the West. It has become commonplace for some to talk about an inevitable clash of the industrial West and Islamic civilisations. But Muslims don’t see things in this way. Those whose words and deeds feed into that point of view are a small and extreme minority. For most of us, it is simply not true. We find singularly little in our theological interpretations that would clash with the other Abrahamic faiths — with Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, there is much that is in profound harmony.
When the clashes of modern times have come, they have most often grown out of particular political circumstances, the twists and turns of power relationships and economic ambitions, rather than deep theological divides. Yet sadly, what is highly abnormal in the Islamic world gets mistaken for what is normal. Of course, media perceptions of our world in recent years have often been conveyed through a lens of war. But that is all the more reason to shape global conversation in a more informed direction. I am personally aware of the efforts the Prime Minister has made to achieve this. Thank you, Prime Minister.
The complexity of the Ummah has a long history. Some of the most glorious chapters in Islamic history were purposefully built on the principle of inclusiveness — it was a matter of state policy to pursue excellence through pluralism. This was true from the time of the Abbasids in Baghdad and the Fatimids in Cairo over 1,000 years ago. It was true in Afghanistan and Timbuktu in Mali, and later with the Safavids in Iran, the Mughals in India, the Uzbeks in Bukhara, and Ottomans in Turkey. From the 8th to the 16th century, al-Andalus thrived on the Iberian Peninsula — under Muslim aegis — but also deeply welcoming to Christian and Jewish peoples.
Today, these Islamic traditions have been obscured in many places, from Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The work of the Aga Khan Trust for Culture, including the Aga Khan Award for Architecture and our Historic Cities Programme, is to revive the memory of this inclusive inheritance. Another immediate initiative is the Aga Khan Museum which will open this year in Toronto, an important testimonial in a Canadian setting to the immense diversity of Islamic cultures.
Perhaps the most important area of incomprehension, outside the Ummah, is the conflict between Sunni and Shia interpretations of Islam and the consequences for the Sunni and Shia peoples. This powerful tension is sometimes even more profound than conflicts between Muslims and other faiths. It has increased massively in scope and intensity recently, and has been further exacerbated by external interventions. In Pakistan and Malaysia, in Iraq and Syria, in Lebanon and Bahrain, in Yemen and Somalia and Afghanistan it is becoming a disaster. It is important, therefore, for non-Muslims who are dealing with the Ummah to communicate with both Sunni and Shia voices. To be oblivious to this reality would be like ignoring over many centuries that there were differences between Catholics and Protestants, or trying to resolve the civil war in Northern Ireland without engaging both Christian communities. What would have been the consequences if the Protestant-Catholic struggle in Ireland had spread throughout the Christian world, as is happening today between Shia and Sunni Muslims in more than nine countries? It is of the highest priority that these dangerous trends be well understood and resisted, and that the fundamental legitimacy of pluralistic outlooks be honoured in all aspects of our lives together — including matters of faith.
Permettez-moi à ce point de mon discours de m’adresser à vous à nouveau en français.
Je viens d’évoquer les incompréhensions entre le monde industrialisé et le monde musulman et les oppositions qui flétrissent indument les relations entre les grandes traditions de l’Islam.
Pourtant, le cœur, la raison et, pour ceux qui en sont animés, la foi, nous disent qu’une plus grande harmonie est possible. De fait, des évolutions récentes nous donnent une ouverture.
Parmi ces évolutions, je voudrais dire combien la démarche constitutionnaliste est importante pour corriger l’inadéquation de nombreuses constitutions existantes, avec l’évolution des sociétés, notamment lorsqu’elles sont en développement. C’est un sujet essentiel que les devoirs de ma charge m’interdisent d’ignorer.
Vous serez peut-être surpris d’apprendre que trente-sept pays du monde ont adopté une nouvelle constitution dans les dernières dix années, et douze sont en phase avancée de modernisation de la leur, soit a total quarante-neuf pays. Dit autrement, ce mouvement concerne un quart des états membres des Nations-Unies. Sur ce total de quarante-neuf pays, 25 pour cent sont des pays à majorité musulmane.
Ceci montre qu’aujourd’hui, la revendication par les sociétés civiles de structures constitutionnelles nouvelles, est devenue incontournable.
Je voudrais ici m’arrêter un instant pour souligner une difficulté particulière du monde musulman. Là, les partis religieux sont structurellement porteurs du principe de l’inséparabilité de la religion et de la vie de la Cité.
La conséquence en est que lorsqu’ils négocient les termes d’une constitution avec des interlocuteurs qui revendiquent la séparation entre Etat et religion, le consensus sur la loi suprême est d’évidence difficile à atteindre.
Cependant, un pays vient de nous faire la démonstration que cela est possible : la République tunisienne.
Ce n’est pas le lieu de commenter par le menu sa nouvelle constitution. Disons toutefois qu’elle est la résultante d’un débat pluraliste assumé, et qu’elle semble contenir les règles nécessaires pour assurer le respect mutuel entre composantes de la société civile.
Ceci se traduit en particulier par une appropriation de la notion de coalition, que ce soit au niveau électoral ou gouvernemental. Il s’agit là d’une grande avancée pour l’expression de ce pluralisme accepté que le Canada et l’Imamat ismaïli appellent de leurs vœux.
Remarquons enfin une conséquence que cette évolution laisse espérer : le forum des débats et conflits inhérents à toute société pluraliste n’est plus la rue ou la place, mais la Cour constitutionnelle d’un état de droit.
Outre le génie propre des constitutionnalistes tunisiens, les travaux préparatoires ont été l’occasion de consultations de droit constitutionnel comparé. Je voudrais saluer en particulier le rôle des juristes portugais, citoyens d’un pays pour lequel j’ai beaucoup de considération et qui, comme le Canada, a développé une civilisation du respect mutuel entre communautés, et d’ouverture aux religions. Je fais référence ici à la loi à dimension concordataire qui régit les relations entre la République portugaise et l’Imamat ismaïli depuis 2010. Devant votre très honorable assemblée, je suis heureux d’ajouter que cette loi, votée à l’unanimité, prend acte de la qualité d’entité supranationale de l’Imamat ismaïli.
Pour conclure sur la constitution tunisienne, Monsieur François Hollande, Président de la République française, a dit à Tunis : “Ce qui fait l’originalité de votre révolution, et même de votre Constitution, c’est le rôle de la société civile.” Clearly, the voices playing a major role in Tunisia were the voices of “Civil Society.”

[Google translation] Let me at this point of my speech to speak to you again in French.
I just mentioned misunderstandings between the industrialized world and the Muslim world and the oppositions that unduly wilt relations between the great traditions of Islam.
Yet the heart, reason and, for those who are animated by faith, we say that a greater harmony is possible. In fact, recent developments give us an opening.
Among these developments, I would like to say how the constitutional process is important to correct the inadequacy of many existing constitutions, with the evolution of societies, particularly when they are developing. This is a key issue that my duties prevent me to ignore.
You may be surprised to learn thirty-seven countries in the world have adopted a new constitution in the last ten years, and twelve are in advanced stage of modernization of their or a total of forty-nine countries. In other words, this movement relates to a quarter of the member states of the United Nations. Of the total of forty-nine countries, 25 percent are Muslim-majority countries.
This shows that today the claim by the civil societies of the new constitutional structures, has become essential.
Here I would like to take a moment to highlight a particular problem in the Muslim world. There, the religious parties are structurally holders of the principle of inseparability of religion and life of the city.
The consequence is that when negotiating the terms of a constitution with people who claim the separation between state and religion, the consensus on the supreme law is obviously difficult to achieve.
However, a country just we demonstrate that this is possible: the Tunisian Republic.
This is not the place to review in detail the new constitution. However say that it is the result of an intentional pluralistic debate, and it seems to contain the necessary rules to ensure mutual respect between members of civil society.
This is particularly reflected in the appropriation of the concept of coalition, whether electoral or governmental level. This is a big step for the expression of pluralism agreed that Canada and the Ismaili Imamat are calling for.
finally note a consequence that this development gives hope : forum debates and conflicts inherent in a pluralistic society is no longer the street or place, but the Constitutional Court to rule of law.
addition genius Tunisian constitutional, preparations were during consultations comparative constitutional law. I welcome in particular the role of Portuguese lawyers, citizens of a country for which I have a lot of consideration and, like Canada, has developed a culture of mutual respect among communities, and openness to religions. I am referring here to the bankruptcy law dimension which governs relations between the Portuguese Republic and the Ismaili Imamat since 2010. Before your very honorable assembly, I am pleased to add that this law, passed unanimously noted the quality of supranational entity of the Ismaili Imamat.
To conclude on the Tunisian constitution, François Hollande, President of the French Republic, said in Tunis : “What makes the originality of your revolution, and even your Constitution, it is the role of society civil.” Clearly, the voices playing a major role in Tunisia Were the voices of “Civil Society.”
By Civil Society I mean an array of institutions which operate on a private, voluntary basis, but are motivated by high public purposes. They include institutions devoted to education, culture, science and research; to commercial, labour, ethnic and religious concerns; as well as professional societies in law, accounting, banking, engineering and medicine. Civil Society encompasses groups that work on health and safety and environmental matters, organisations that are engaged in humanitarian service, or in the arts or the media.

[M]y view is that the world needs to pay more attention — much, much more attention — to the potential role of Civil Society.

There is sometimes a tendency in the search for progress to focus solely on politics and government, or on the private, profit-making sector. And surely they both have roles to play. But my view is that the world needs to pay more attention — much, much more attention — to the potential role of Civil Society. We see it expanding in many places, from Sub-Saharan Africa to Tunisia and Egypt, from Iran to Bangladesh. At a time of extreme danger in Kenya a few years ago — the beginnings of a civil war — the former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, led the way to a peaceful solution which rested heavily on the strength of Kenya’s Civil Society.
Increasingly, I believe, the voices of Civil Society are voices for change, where change has been overdue. They have been voices of hope for people living in fear. They are voices that can help transform countries of crisis into countries of opportunity. There are too many societies where too many people live in a culture of fear, condemned to a life of poverty. Addressing that fear, and replacing it with hope, will be a major step to the elimination of poverty. And often the call for hope to replace fear will come from the voices of Civil Society.

A cosmopolitan ethic is one that welcomes the complexity of human society. It balances rights and duties, freedom and responsibility. It is an ethic for all peoples, the familiar and the Other, whether they live across the street or across the planet.

An active Civil Society can open the door for an enormous variety of energies and talents from a broad spectrum of organisations and individuals. It means opening the way for diversity. It means welcoming plurality. I believe that Canada is uniquely able to articulate and exemplify three critical underpinnings of a quality Civil Society — a commitment to pluralism, to meritocracy, and to a cosmopolitan ethic. A cosmopolitan ethic is one that welcomes the complexity of human society. It balances rights and duties, freedom and responsibility. It is an ethic for all peoples, the familiar and the Other, whether they live across the street or across the planet.
The Aga Khan Development Network has worked over five decades to assist in the enhancement of Civil Society. And as we look to its future, we are honoured that Canada views us as a valued partner. Thank you Prime Minister. One key to Canada’s success in building a meritocratic Civil Society is your recognition that democratic societies require more than democratic governments.
I have been impressed by recent studies showing the activity of voluntary institutions and not-for-profit organisations in Canada to be among the highest in the world. This Canadian spirit resonates with a cherished principle in Shia Ismaili culture — the importance of contributing one’s individual energies on a voluntary basis to improving the lives of others. This is not a matter of philanthropy, but rather of self-fulfilment — “enlightened self-fulfilment.”
During my Golden Jubilee — and this is important — six years ago Ismailis from around the world volunteered their gifts, not only of wealth, but most notably of time and knowledge, in support of our work. We established a Time and Knowledge framework, a structured process for engaging an immense pool of expertise involving tens of thousands of volunteers. Many of them travelled to developing countries as part of this outpouring of service — one third of those were Canadians. Their impact has been enormous in helping us to achieve best practice standards in our institutions and programmes, making us we hope an even better partner for Canada! Such efforts thrive when multiple inputs can be matched to multiple needs, which is why Canada’s immense economic diversity is such a valuable global resource.
One of the foundational qualities of Canada’s Civil Society is its educational emphasis. Studies show that Canadian students — whether native or foreign born — perform in the very top tier of students internationally, and indeed, that more than 45 per cent of the foreign born population in Canada has a tertiary degree. This record of educational opportunity resonates strongly with the Shia Ismaili belief in the transformative power of the human intellect, a conviction that underscores AKDN’s massive commitment to education wherever we are present — not only education for our faith, but also of education for our world. To do this we are engaged in all levels of education.
The Aga Khan University in Karachi and East Africa are expanding to create a new Liberal Arts faculty, and to establish eight new post-graduate schools in collaboration with several Canadian universities.
We also share with Canada a deep appreciation for the potential of early childhood education. It is the period of the greatest development of the brain. This education is one of the most cost-effective ways to improve the quality of life for rural as well as urban populations. Congratulations, Prime Minister, for your initiative on this. In this regard, let me take a moment to salute the late Dr Fraser Mustard, whose work in Early Childhood Development will impact millions of people around the world. The AKDN has been fortunate to have been inspired and counselled by this great Canadian scientist and humanist.
Quality education is fundamental to the development of a meritocratic Civil Society, and thus to the development of pluralistic attitudes.

One of the watchwords of our new Global Centre for Pluralism is that “Pluralism is a Process and not a Product.”

The history of Canada has a great deal to teach us in this regard, including the long, incremental processes through which quality civil societies and committed cultures of pluralism are built. One of the watchwords of our new Global Centre for Pluralism is that “Pluralism is a Process and not a Product.” I know that many Canadians would describe their own pluralism as a “work in progress,” but it is also an asset of enormous global quality.
What more will a quality Civil Society now require of us? Sadly, the world is becoming more pluralist in fact, but not necessarily in spirit. “Cosmopolitan” social patterns have not yet been matched by “a cosmopolitan ethic.” In fact, one harsh reality is that religious hostility and intolerance seems to be on the rise in many places — from the Central African Republic, to South Sudan, to Nigeria, to Myanmar, the Philippines and other countries — both between major religious groups and within them. Again, Canada has responded in notable ways, including the establishment — just one year ago — of the Office of Religious Freedom. Its challenges, like those facing the Centre for Global Pluralism, are enormous and its contributions will be warmly welcomed. And surely it will also serve as a worthy model for other countries.
In sum, I believe that Civil Society is one of the most powerful forces in our time, one that will become an increasingly universal influence, engulfing more countries, influencing, reshaping and sometimes even replacing ineffective regimes. And I also believe that Civil Society around the world should be vigorously encouraged and wisely nurtured by those who have made it work most successfully — Canada first amongst all.
I am most grateful to the Prime Minister and to you who have given me this opportunity to share — from a faith perspective — some of the issues that preoccupy me when looking ahead. I hope I have explained why I am convinced about the global validity of our partnership for human development.
Let me end with a personal thought. As you build your lives, for yourselves and others, you will come to rest upon certain principles. Central to my life has been a verse in the Holy Qur’an which addresses itself to the whole of humanity. It says: “Oh Mankind, fear your Lord, who created you of a single soul, and from it created its mate, and from the pair of them scattered abroad many men and women…”
I know of no more beautiful expression about the unity of our human race — born indeed from a single soul.
Thank you.

Muslim First
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#2

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:34 pm

Couple of Q&A
From
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 9&start=30

You are celebrated as a champion of pluralism, and you refer to Canada as a global model of pluralism. What can immigrant communities draw from the Ismaili experience coming to Canada in the 1970s when your community was forced out of East Africa?

It wasn’t just the political system. It was the banking system. I reached an agreement with Prime Minister [Pierre] Trudeau and President [Jomo] Kenyatta. Another big factor was the role of Canada’s banks, Royal Bank, CIBC and Bank of Nova Scotia, which agreed to lend money to families and entrepreneurs with a financial guarantee from the imamat (his office). What is important is the notion that commercial banks will deal with whole communities as long as they’re not at risk. It’s a wonderful thing that they accepted the imamat’s guarantee.

What else can be learned by other immigrant communities?

Let’s be frank. The community had one thing. It was absolutely fluent in the English language. The fact that they were fluent in English meant they could adjust into Canadian society, to Canadian national life. This was true of the younger generation. The elder generation is less fluent. The second thing that played a big part is that the community has a structure, it has a constitution, it has consular bodies, it has people who have functions. It was not a disorganized community. It was a community that was facing disorganizational pressures. but itself, it had its own capacities. There was a structure that responded to needs. That structure had been set in place before the Uganda crisis.

SBM
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#3

Unread post by SBM » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:32 pm

^
something many leaders of Muslim Communities specially Kothari Goons can learn but again one is Philanthropist and visionary while the other is MoreLa and shortsighted. One asks his community to learn advance knowledge and English while other asks to make ROTI and learn Lissan E Dawat

salim
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#4

Unread post by salim » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:51 pm

Sometimes I feel bad that so much of energy from Arab spring is now diverting towards shia sunni fight? Why can't we accept the differences and come to a dialog and live together, like our forefathers in Islam did. Dint our first 4 khalif scarified so much for inclusion and peace? If they would have fought among themselves at that time, Islam might not have seen the glorious period it did.

It is not just with in Islam, it is also from outside, other fundamentalist people are forcing division us. If you look at current election campaign in India, specially the hindutav fundamentalist, they are trying to change the history by saying all Moguls were bad and in tern their religion is bad and so current Muslims are bad as well. Some Muslims are getting in trap of this by accepting that Moguls were not plural and are feeling proud about it. Moguls ruled India for over 300 years, if they were forcing everyone to convert to Islam, today entire India would have been Muslim. How come on 12% are Muslims? Most of the Moguls were actually very progressive. India was at the top of civilization height under Moguls. Under Akbar, India's GDP was 24% of worlds GDP, and that was the highest ever India has reached. And you still call Moguls thief? As Indian Muslims will get more education, they will have more better answers to this fundamentalist.

New
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#5

Unread post by New » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:37 pm

I fully agree with Salim. Why be divisive and take pot shots at other religions? Their belief is as good as yours. Are you the chosen one? By what standard? We have one planet to live on. Accept others and their rights to believe in what ever and whom ever they want to believe in (athiests, agonostics, agnoatheists, theists etc.). What is "Haqq"? To me it is a one kind of stupidity.

james
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#6

Unread post by james » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:36 am

salim wrote: Dint our first 4 khalif scarified so much for inclusion and peace? If they would have fought among themselves at that time, Islam might not have seen the glorious period it did.
What did Abu Bakr , Umar and Usman sacrifice ?

salim
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#7

Unread post by salim » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:10 am

According to us Shia, the 3 khalifas did not do good job, because they took the place of Ali. But according to Sunni Believe it is not true. You should also understand that when H. Ali was silent on this matter, then that means the 3 khalifas might have being doing something good for Islam. He had enough power to fight against these 3 khalifas, but he selected otherwise.

Everyone has their proofs. There is no way to go back in history and find the proof now. So why not do what H. Ali did - compromise. Why did Ali not said any thing against the 3.

I can totally understand your love for Ali. I have nothing against you when you are against the 3. But Allah and Ali has asked us to respect others and learn from each other. This is not possible when we hate each other. If we love Ali we should do what he did. This is what Quran says

The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah. Certainly He does not love wrongdoers. (Surat Ash-Shura, 40)

According to me when you send Lannat on the 3 you are also insulting Ali. Because by saying lanat what you are saying is - Ali the most courageous of all, did not had enough courage to fight against atrocities of the 3? I don't think so, what Ali did was he sacrificed his position as khalif and saved Islam, because he knew that the 3 will provide something good to Islam.

It is Human nature that we all can not think same, this is the reason Allah has divided us into different groups.

Regardless of how much (dis)respect you give to the 3, we Muslims have a lot in common than differences. So let's enjoy the similarity like what Ali did and leave the differences aside.

salim
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#8

Unread post by salim » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:12 am

james wrote: What did Abu Bakr , Umar and Usman sacrifice ?
There are tons and tons of resources on contribution of the 3 towards Islam.

Muslim First
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#9

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:51 am

http://www.vancouverdesi.com/news/a-bre ... ss/727384/

A breakdown of the public’s reaction to the Aga Khan’s Parliament address


DR. VALI JAMAL
VANCOUVER DESI

The Aga Khan’s official visit to Canada to address the Parliament got mired in controversy as at the second big event Friday – a mass address in Toronto’s Massey Hall – the opposition parties were not invited.

Vali Jamal, from Kampala, Uganda, analyzes the public’s reaction to the Highness’s parliamentary address by filtering through comments on news sites:

I happened to be on the CBC site as the speech began to be reported. Within an hour, 30 comments were made.

Today, 18 hours later, 741 comments have been registered and CBC remains open to hear more.

Some people took advantage of the open comments thread to play party politics, but in the end, given that the host party and its leader are so anti-everything the Aga Khan stands for, it was inevitable that people would ask the question why Harper invited him in the first place and why the Aga Khan accepted.

The invitation was explained as a photo op for Harper to be with a world leader. Some people thought he was courting votes from Ismailis and other Muslims. Why the Aga Khan accepted the invitation perhaps was a major honour or an opportunity to deliver on his favourite topic of pluralism and world peace, which he did so eloquently.

But the speech played badly with the people – surprisingly, after more than 40 years of presence in Canada, neither the Aga Khan nor the Ismailis are known to the man on the street. Many commentators referred to him as “this guy.”

That he is wealthy everyone knew from Google. The 12-15 per cent tithe was mentioned. Muslim-haters joined hands with mainstream Muslims to point out the Aga Khan Ismailis are just 1 per cent of the Muslim world so how can the Imam speak for all Muslims. Some even said the Ismaili religion is so far away from basic Muslim tenets that it was like a Mormon leader speaking on behalf of Catholics.

As for the contents of the speech only a few people were aware of the Aga Khan’s friendship with Trudeau but not of his role in the rescue mission for Uganda Asians in 1972. And so of course they were clueless on the “virtual spiral” that event set off that culminated in yesterday’s world event: the adoption of the Multicultural Law by Canada (1987); the siting of Global Centre for Pluralism (2006) in Canada by the Aga Khan; and the conferral of Canadian honorary doctorates and citizenship on the Aga Khan.

Some mentioned the Aga Khan was an honorary pall-bearer at Trudeau’s funeral. People made mention of how this would cause Harper some dismay and perhaps for this reason the Aga Khan himself made no reference to how his strong ties with Canada started in 1972 as a friend of Trudeau.

The only reference to Uganda was when he spoke of “ethnic cleansing” and we who are in the know would take that to mean Idi Amin and the Big X (expulsion). Those who don’t know may think it was a reference to Uganda’s Acholi people being herded into IDP camps.

To the ordinary Canadian what happened yesterday was that a “stranger” was asked to address their parliament. For us Ismailis we are seeing their reaction for the first time.

It’s not the same as what we read from Adrienne Clarke, Kofi Annan and Wolfensen, and in all the citations for the honorary degrees.

We, as Ismailis, just know who our Imam is. As Liberal Senator Mobina Jaffer said on being asked how she felt being excluded from today’s Massey Hall lecture: “I am just so happy he has come home.”

Muslim First
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:58 am

What did Abu Bakr , Umar and Usman sacrifice ?
Jimmy bachaa

First of all prove that Islam was personal property of Prophet and his family.
Remember you ran away from thread with your tail between 2 legs!
Significance of Prophet SAW in Islam.
by james on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:55 pm
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9328

Muslim First
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#11

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:01 pm

salim wrote:
james wrote: What did Abu Bakr , Umar and Usman sacrifice ?
There are tons and tons of resources on contribution of the 3 towards Islam.
Jimmy Bachaa

Here is write up By Hart, I transcribed especially for you Bachaa.

His book “The 100, A ranking of the most influential persons in History”

‘UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB. (c. 586-644)
Ranked 52 and only one of 2 Muslim in the list

(From “The 100, A ranking of the most influential persons in History” by Micheael H. Hart)

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab was the second, and probably the greatest of the Moslem Khalifs. He was younger contemporary of Muhammad, and like Prophet, was born in Mecca. The year of his birth is unknown, but was perhaps about 586.

‘Umar' was originally one of the most bitter opponent of Muhammad and his new religion. Rather suddenly, however ‘Umar became converted to Islam, and thereafter was one of its strongest supports. (The parallel with conversation of St. Paul to Christianity is striking.) “Umar became one of closest advisor of the prophet Muhammad, and remained so throughout Muhammad’s life.

In 632, Muhammad died without having named successor. ‘Umar promptly supported the candidacy of Abu Bakr, a close associate and father-in-law of the Prophet. This avoided a power struggle and enabled Abu Bakr to be generally recognized as the first Caliph (i.e., as the “successor” of Muhammad). Abu Bakr was a successful leader, but he died after serving a caliph for only two years. He had, however, specifically named ‘Umar (who was also father-an-law of the Prophet) to succeed him, so once again power struggle was avoided. ‘Umar became caliph in 634, and retained power until 644, when he was assassinated in Medina by a Persian slave. On his deathbed, ‘Umar named a committee of six person to choose his successor, thereby again averting armed struggle for power. The committee chose Othman, the third caliph, who ruled from 644 to 656.

It was during ten years of ‘Umar’s caliphate that the most important conquests of the Arabs occurred. Not long after ‘Umar’s accession, Arab armies invaded Syria and Palestine, which at that time were part of the Byzantine Empire. At the battle of Yarmuk (636), the Arabs won crushing victory over Byzantine forces. Damascus fell the same year, and Jerusalem surrendered two years later. By 641, the Arabs had conquered all of Palestine and Syria, and were advancing into present day Turkey. In 639, Arab armies invaded Egypt, which had also been under Byzantine rule. Within three years, the Arab conquest of Egypt was complete.

Arabs attacked Iraq, at that time part of Sassanid Empire of Persians, had commenced even before ‘Umar took office. The key Arab victory, at the battle of Qadisiya (637) occurred during ‘Umar’s reign. By 641, all of Iraq was under Arab control. Nor was that all: Arab armies invaded Persia itself, and at the battle of Nehavend (642) they decisively defeated the forces of Sassanid emperor. By the time ‘Umar died, in 644, most of western Iran had been overrun. Nor had the Arab armies run out of momentum when ‘Umar died. In the East, they fairly soon completed the conquest of Persia, while in the West they continued their push across North Africa.

Just as important as the extent of ‘Umar’s conquests is their permanence. Iran, though its population became converted to Islam, eventually regained its independence from Arab rule. Bur Syria, Iraq, and Egypt never did. Those countries became thorough Arabized so to this day.

‘Umar, of course had to devise policies for the rule of the great empire that his armies had conquered. He decided that the Arabs were to be privileged military cast in the regions they had conquered, and that they should live in garrison cities, apart from the natives. The subject peoples were to pay tribute to their Moslem (largely Arabs) conquerors, but were otherwise to be left in peace. In particular, they were not to be forcibly converted to Islam. (From the above, it is clear that the Arabs conquest was more nationalist war of conquest then a holy war, although the religious aspect was certainly not lacking)

‘Umar’s achievements are impressive indeed. After Muhammad himself, he was principal figure in the spread of Islam. Without his rapid conquests, it is doubtful that Islam would be nearly as widespread today as it actually is. Furthermore, most of territory conquered during his reign has remained Arab ever since. Obviously, of course, Muhammad, who was the prime mover, should receive the bulk of the credit for those developments. But it would be grave mistake to ignore ‘Umar’s contribution. The conquest he made were not automatic consequence of the inspiration provided by Muhammad. Some expansion was bound to occur, but not to the enormous extent that it did under ‘Umar’s brilliant leadership.

It may occasion some surprise that ‘Umar'-a figure virtually unknown in the west- has been ranked higher then such famous men as Charlemagne and Julius Caesar. However, the conquest made by the Arabs under ‘Umar, taking into account both their size and their duration, are substantially more important then those of either Caesar or Charlemagne.

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#12

Unread post by salim » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:35 pm

Muslim First wrote:
http://www.vancouverdesi.com/news/a-bre ... ss/727384/

A breakdown of the public’s reaction to the Aga Khan’s Parliament address


DR. VALI JAMAL
VANCOUVER DESI
When it comes to politics, like anyone else, Ismailis are divided as well. Naheed (an Ismaili Muslim) the first Muslim Mayor of any major city of Canada, is also ranked as 2nd most powerful person in Canada after the PM. See here http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/21 ... 17570.html and he is from opposition party, who were left out of the 2nd event. As per the ruling party every party was invited to first event and 2nd event was for reserved for PMs friends and families only.

So with this achievement of Naheed, it is assumed that Ismailis should only support Liberals and Liberals only, but this is not true. Ismailis have supporters in both the parties. We Ismailis believe that people can have two different views and both can have truth in their story. If Naheed converts to Christianity, he has very good chance of becoming PM of canada. But I respect him because he has chosen to do otherwise. I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#13

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:02 pm

Salim
I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.
It takes more than Sahada to call one Muslim

Salim, it is more appropriate to say

I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself ISMAILI Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#14

Unread post by SBM » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:16 pm

Br MF
I think you should give Aga Khan credit for coming up and not shying away from calling himself as Muslim. Atleast he is better than all the rulers of Middle East who will go to any length to kiss the A-- of Western Powers to save and even not talk about Muslim Unity
You are blinded due to your hate to Shia Community and it is unfortunate that you can not come of that box atleast current Aga Khan is promoting the positive image of Muslims, helping restore many historical Muslim Structures while Saudis are bent on destroying the historic structures in the name of PURITAN ISLAM, Many so called pious Muslims like Zakir Nayak and Osama Bin Laden who may be praying 5 times a day but divided the community. Hope you see and think outside the box of your bias against Shias and see thru the lens of Ummah Unity.

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#15

Unread post by salim » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:57 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Salim
Salim, it is more appropriate to say

I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself ISMAILI Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.
Things are not as black and white as it is to you. In Sunni world as there are Sunnis of Salafi tradition who believe all others are kafir except them and everyone should join terrorism and destroy the world otherwise they are not Muslim, then you have Sunnis from Turkey, who think wearing Jib is against Islam, then you have some Sunnis from Iraq, India, Pakistan so believes in saints, etc then you have Sunnis from Central Asia and China who are so secular that they care less about other Sunnis.

This is just me generalizing, in real the above societies are way more complex than above. If it would have been so general and easy, then he would have come out and said, he is not the that kind of Muslim, and he is only this kind of Muslim. But he can't say that because majority of Muslims around the world agree with him on many of his ethics. Helping others, inclusive growth, education, science and research of finding the mysteries of Allah, loving neighbors, forgiving other, etc is not just confined to Ismaili Muslims, all most entire Ummah believes in these values. Ummah has a lot more similarity with him then differences.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#16

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:14 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Salim
I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.
It takes more than Sahada to call one Muslim

Salim, it is more appropriate to say

I feel proud when he goes in public and calls himself ISMAILI Muslim in front of so many people who do not have good image of Muslims.
MF Are you using a prejudice yardstick to judge others. Are we not already too divided.

I want to be regarded as Muslim too, but have no issues to be a Muslim Bohra when it pleases me.

Muslim First
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#17

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:36 pm

Salim
Things are not as black and white as it is to you.
It might not to you but here is Islam in nutshell
From Shahi Bukhari
Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Umar
Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. 2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. 3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) . 4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) 5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.
So according to Quran and Sunnah a Muslim is one who follows above 5 things
Shias and Sunnis do that
Ismaili Muslims do not perform Salat but innovative prayers called Dua
They do not fast in Ramadan but fast on Sukarwari beej
No Hajj
In Sunni world as there are Sunnis of Salafi tradition who believe all others are kafir except them
How can you be called Kafir if you follow Quran and Sunnah?
everyone should join terrorism and destroy the world otherwise they are not Muslim,
Who told you that?
Is there Fatwa from Sunni Salafi Imam? Please Post.
then you have Sunnis from Turkey, who think wearing Jib is against Islam,
This is Fatwa from Ataturk, he was secularist.
Can I show you Quran And Ahadith regarding Khamar ( hijab) ?
then you have some Sunnis from Iraq, India, Pakistan so believes in saints, etc
They also believe in above 5 things
There are Ismailis who believe in a Krisna as Imam, how about that?
then you have Sunnis from Central Asia and China who are so secular that they care less about other Sunnis.
Then they are Muslim just in name

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#18

Unread post by salim » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:31 pm

You can see the light only if Allah wishes. No one can explain you anything otherwise. For you religion for me mine.

Momin
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#19

Unread post by Momin » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Hey Muslim First,

You believe in the entirety of the Holy Qu'ran, right? Please provide us the Salah prayers directly from the HQ only.

Wish you luck! :)

Thanks,

Momin

anajmi
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:47 pm

Check this out.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/04/showbiz/o ... ivery-guy/

Not sure how many of you saw the Oscars. The name of the owner of the pizza store that delivered the pizza is - Ararat Agakhanyan. I am assuming he is a khoja or else this would be a gargantuan coincidence.

He says - "We had no idea that our pizzas were going to be on TV. We're ordering supplies like mad, stocking up on cheese, pepperoni, sausage and boxes and shipping them out to the different stores."

Good for him.

Muslim First
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#21

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:13 pm

Momin wrote:Hey Muslim First,

You believe in the entirety of the Holy Qu'ran, right? Please provide us the Salah prayers directly from the HQ only.

Wish you luck! :)

Thanks,

Momin
This is first question asked when we ask "Where is Imamat in Quran"?

Answer is as follows
[Where is Imamat in Quran/b]
This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?

Ask Shia to ONLY give you the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this and you will see how helpless the arguments will be.

Now when you ask this from a Shia you receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you will receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).


You believe in the entirety of the Holy Qu'ran, right? Please provide us the Salah prayers directly from the HQ only.


Answer from
http://islamistruth.forumotion.com/t21- ... f-immamate

1. There are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from Hadeeth not Quran :
Prayer has been referred to EXPLICITLY and STRONGLY more than ninety times in Quran . In each of these verses one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of these verses talk about the details of prayer, like how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, etc. Certainly with such a vast and strong reference from Quran , Muslims will refer to the Prophet to know the details. In comparison, the total number of the verses that Shia refers to for Imaamat is no more than 5 or 6 and yet non of them can be interpreted by a non-biased mind in the way that 12ers interpret it. In fact none of them are explicit and strong enough to prove Imaamat doctrine. This is while Prayer is not at all comparable with Imaamat. Imaamat is the fundamental of belief. Shia calls it one of the Osoole Din (Fundamental of religion). Prayer however according to Shia is one of the Foroo’e Din (Subsidiary) Imamat is important enough to convince Shia to separate themselves from the mainstream Islam. If the only difference between Shia and the Mainstream Islam was the way they perform prayer they would never become a sect out of the mainstream Islam.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#22

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:31 pm

Momin wrote:Hey Muslim First,

You believe in the entirety of the Holy Qu'ran, right? Please provide us the Salah prayers directly from the HQ only.

Wish you luck! :)

Thanks,

Momin
Br. Momin, BJ and Salim
It will pay to read this

IMAMAH
http://web.archive.org/web/200905190852 ... les/imamah

The major difference between the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama’ah and their Shia brothers is the doctrine of Imamah. The articles below will show that the concept of Imamah is the negation of the central tenet of Islam–namely that Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets.

Read on at
http://web.archive.org/web/200905190852 ... les/imamah

Momin
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#23

Unread post by Momin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:12 am

Dear Muslim First,

You haven't proven anything at all, in addition you couldn't even substantiate your Sunni Sunnah prayers, the salaah, from the Holy Qu'ran. So you point fingers at the true Muslims, the Nizari Ismailis, and claim they follow a innovated prayer, which is the Holy Dua, well look at your own first. If you claim that your xyz hadith instructs you how to pray and fart, then so does our xyz hadith tell us that the Holy Prophet appointed Hazrat Ali (as) as the temporal and spiritual leader (Imam) of all Muslims. Thru their descendants, we have the current Imam of Age & Time, the Aga Khan IV, who guides and prescribes his followers on how to pray, etc., just as the Prophet did in him time. Remember God does not stop talking to mankind and time does not remain static.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#24

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:13 am

Br Momin
We had this debate before on this thread
Ismalies and Bohras
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5206&hilit=Salat&start=3

Prayers in Qur'an is discussed here
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=3125

Salat/Namaz is performed at Prophet's mosque without interruption same way since Prophet passed away.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#25

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:27 am

Here are 5 prayer times mentioned in Qura'n
In above link
porus wrote:(30:17) EXTOL, then, God’s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn

These are fajr prayer and magharib prayer.

(30:18) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.

This is asr prayer and zuhr prayer

(11:114) And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night.

These are fajr, magharib, and isha prayers

So, these are the five prayers as interpreted by the majority of the Muslim Ulama. It is also in line with teaching of Daa'imul Islam, whose primary authority is the Quran as interpreted by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and earlier Imams.

The above Quran quotes are Muhammad Asad translations.

The following is from Maududi's Tafheemul Quran:

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Reading Arabic Quran, I agree with Maududi.

Momin
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#26

Unread post by Momin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:17 pm

MF,

You too are following an innovated prayer until you can prove directly from the Holy Qu'ran, in which you have failed miserably. I didn't ask you how many times one should pray, I ask you to substantiate your Sunni Sunnah prayer only from Qu'ran, in which you cannot.

I rest my case.

M.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:56 pm

Dear Bro, Muslim First,

Why are you wasting your time with these people? We all know that there is no Imamat in the Quran. If there had been, we wouldn't be running around the bush hiding behind salaah.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#28

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:34 pm

I didn't ask you how many times one should pray,
At least Ismailis do not pray 5 times as per Quranic Ayas.

Instead of playing game with you I will take Br anajmi's advice.
One more thing even if I had shown you prayers you would have shown me Farman of SMS that he has complete Quran and one what you call Uthman' Quran has been tampered with.
Khoja Ismailis do not follow Quran, they follow Farman and Ginans.
Wasalaam

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#29

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:15 am

The Ismailis are the some of the finest Muslims on Earth today.

They are easily the most advanced, educated, intelligent, generous, kind, sophisticated, prosperous, forward-thing and peace-loving community in the entire Ummah, and live in peace and harmony all over the world.

The Aga Khan has worked his whole life to build bridges with other creeds and cultures and countries, and is the foremost Ambassador for Islam globally, who elevates the image and standing of Muslims, everywhere he goes. His countless projects to help his own, and other communities is respected and admired the world over, as is his constant drive to foster peace and harmony and understanding among all people, irrespective of their differences.

The Aga Khan is a much needed antidote to the evil disease of certain other Muslim sects... who continue to destroy the name and sanctity of Islam, both by word and by deed, by committing heinous atrocities all over the world against all other religions.

All Muslims can learn a lot from the character and conduct of the Ismailis... and I sincerely hope Kickass Khuzzy follows in their foot-steps = Go Qutbis!


Bohras may not agree with Ismaili doctrine, but surely respect the Ismaili Community - it's no surprise that the only people here who don't... are the two notorious Wahhabis, who have no respect for anyone, and go out of their way to trample on other peoples beliefs.

This is an embarrassment and quite damaging to Bohras... because outsiders looking in, may interpret the Wahhabi opinions to be representative of what Bohras believe (or at least are happy to condone) due to them posting on a Bohra forum.

Therefore, as Admin has made the (monumental) error of giving Wahhabis freedom to mock and ridicule other peoples beliefs on the forum - it has to be clarified that this deviant and intolerant version of Islam, is not in any way associated with the Bohra Community.

Hopefully these two unwanted Non-Bohras, will go and try to clean up their own disgustingly dirty glass house... instead of having the audacity to throw stones at other, vastly cleaner houses... although I'm sure that is beyond them. :roll:

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: Aga Khan's speech to Canadian Parliment

#30

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:20 am

Muslim First wrote:‘Umar' was originally one of the most bitter opponent of Muhammad and his new religion. Rather suddenly, however ‘Umar became converted to Islam, and thereafter was one of its strongest supports. (The parallel with conversation of St. Paul to Christianity is striking.)
I agreed with you MF - Paul corrupted Christianity... just like Umar corrupted Islam.

Anyway, seeing as nobody gives a damn about what you think (never has and never will!) - why don't you go join a Sunni forum where you might have better luck?

PS: Please ask Admin to delete every one of your posts before you leave - Thanks!