Ismaili or Ithna Asheri line of Imam - haq is with whom?

[Munira_RV]

Can the esteemed member of this forum present their contention in reference to topic? Lets discuss this topic and learn.

[Muslim First]

Before we go further

Question for all Shias

Show me a command in Quran telling us that there will be Imams after Prophets, NO Hadit no complted explainations and no refernce to wasis of previous Prophet.

If Imamat was that importane
Why not clear cut cpmmand?
Salat, Hajj, Fast is there.
even how to prepare for Salat is there.

[Munira_RV]

Refer to Quran 17:71 and 21:73. Both aayat have word Imam and Aimma (plural of Imam). And both verse speak Imam in leadership position.

I must tell, Muslim First bhai, you do not have basic etiquette! I want to discuss some particular thing and instead of constructively participating you are derailing the discussion before it even begin!

[Muslim First]

Before establishing Haq
We need to establish clear command in Quran for Imamate after Prophet saw

[JavedhJuma]

If Imamat was that importane

Why not clear cut cpmmand?

Salat, Hajj, Fast is there.

even how to prepare for Salat is there.

My Friend, the proof has been given to you. You have negated everything. Simple thing, my friend, In your own words, you said, Rasool SAW made an announcement at Ghadir and Hazarat Umar congratulated Mowla Ali. Can you please tell us why? May be then we can continue. First you clarify and then I can provide you proof from Qur'an although I doubt you or others will accept it. You have a good way to put a spin on everything that is even remotely connected with Imamat.

[JavedhJuma]

Can the esteemed member of this forum present their contention in reference to topic? Lets discuss this topic and learn.

With all due respect Ms. Munira, I request you to withdraw this topic. This will bring more strife between the Bohoras and Ithna'Asheris. As it is things are at a boiling point between the two. We heard the videos already. I would not go there.

Let us respect each other's line of Imamat.

I request Admin to please not encourage this subject. Just a request. We do not need more strifes between Muslim brothers.

[JavedhJuma]

javedbhai why are you asking the same questions repeatedly , when they dont believe that congrats from Umar? I dont find any such reports in their sahih books.

Brother you are a newcomer. MF first had said that there was no such thing as Ghadir E Khoum. Finally, he conceded and said Umar RA congratulated Mowla Ali As.

All I am asking why? How difficult it is to say why? What happened? If he knows, he should share with us. Then he made accusations against my Imam, saying he does not know how to pronounce Niyaz, but could not produce a sound clip, just gibberish from students on Ismaili.net; then he said we recite shirk infested Du'a and Hindu rituals and I asked him to quote, and he could not quote it; There more false accusations, some very sickening.

Please skip my posts if you find them unpallatable, but I am sure going to be posting these until d-day!

As regards you don't find them in their Sahih books, please get a set. They choose and post what suits their agenda. Even a Jew said, that if they had received the declaration from the Prophet (it has been edited), they would celebrate it as IDD. We Shias celebrate the occasion as Idd E Gadir. If you want, I can quote the narration from the Jew..

[Muslim First]

[Pickthal 17:71] On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.

Imam in 17:71 is used for book of deeds.

Imagine javedh lines up behind twice divorced, Alcohol merchant, Horace breeder with his record of no Salat, no Jumma prayers, no Hajj and no Zakat?

And imagine Munira lines up behind two dies who are still fighting about who is representing Imam?

And Twelvers it is hard to imagine Imam thousands of years.

Guys use brain. It is simple your deeds are your Salvation . Period.

[tasneempati]

Munira Ben
Bohras ( Ismailis) and Ithna'Asheris are cousins. We are from the family of Ahle-Bayt and Imam Zafar Sadiq A.S. is father for both lines of Imam's. Let us respect each other. All Shia's are brotherly. 1,2,3 were outsiders.

[Muslim First]

21:73

[Pickthal 21:72] And We bestowed upon him Isaac, and Jacob as a grandson. Each of them We made righteous.
[Pickthal 21:73] And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone).
[Pickthal 21:74] And unto Lot we gave judgment and knowledge, and We delivered him from the community that did abominations. Lo! they were folk of evil, lewd.
[Pickthal 21:75] And We brought him in unto Our mercy. Lo! he was of the righteous.
[Pickthal 21:76] And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.
[Pickthal 21:77] And delivered him from the people who denied Our revelations. Lo! they were folk of evil, therefor did We drown them all.
[Pickthal 21:78] And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment concerning the field, when people's sheep had strayed and browsed therein by night; and We were witnesses to their judgment.
[Pickthal 21:79] And We made Solomon to understand (the case); and unto each of them We gave judgment and knowledge. And we subdued the hills and the birds to hymn (His) praise along with David. We were the doers (thereof).
[Pickthal 21:80] And We taught him the art of making garments (of mail) to protect you in your daring. Are ye then thankful?

Munira
One of point of understanding Quran is reding with few Ayas ahead and few after.
Now you see 21:73 is talking about previous Prophets
Complete message about Salat, Zakat, hajj and fast in Ramadan is given in Quran. Between those acts you are suppose to live clean life. It does not make difference if I pray Salat with hands folded and you pray with hands on side, so long you pray Salat.

[Muslim First]

Munira Ben
Bohras ( Ismailis) and Ithna'Asheris are cousins. We are from the family of Ahle-Bayt and Imam Zafar Sadiq A.S. is father for both lines of Imam's. Let us respect each other. All Shia's are brotherly. 1,2,3 were outsiders.

That is not answer

She is asking Haq?

[Muslim First]

Crux of the Sunni/Shia Divide

The center of the debate between the Ahlus Sunnah and Shia revolves around the issue of Imamah (i.e. Aimmatal Masoomeen). The importance of Imamah is so great that the Shia Ulema consider those who reject Imamah to be Kaffir. Likewise, the Sunni Ulema consider those who accept (in toto) the Shia doctrine of Imamah to be Kaffir.
Most of the polemical debate between Sunni and Shia revolves around peripheral issues such as Mutah, Matam, Saqifah, Ghadeer Khumm, Fadak, and other such side issues. However, the fundamental issue of debate–namely Imamah–is oftentimes ignored. In the words of Sidi Abu Salih:

Every other disagreement the Shia have with the Sunnis [other than Imamah] has its roots in the Shia insistence on Imamah as a principle of Islam, both in belief and practise. From differing views and interpretations of history, entirely different systems of Hadith collection and authentication, and divergent manners of performing Islamic practises, all these dissimilarities can be traced back to Imamah as a doctrine in Shia faith.

It is therefore only reasonable that the focus of any serious quest for truth would begin and end with the principle of Imamah in the mind of the truth-seeker. Trying to research about the differences between Shia and Sunni without considering the dogma of Imamah as a main sticking point will lead to dead ends and fruitless arguments. I have personally witnessed a number of [Sunni-Shia] discussions that quickly descend into chaos because one side or the other wishes to discuss a subject of peripheral importance.

Source: Sidi Abu Salih, Imaamah and the Quran: An Objective Perspective, p.5;

Read
The Quran Challenge
http://web.archive.org/web/200905122358 ... -challenge

[Muslim First]

The Quran Challenge

This is an open challenge for the Shia to give Quranic verses which outline and justify the Shia concept of Imamah. Can the Shia produce even a single verse outlining Imamah, without any additions to the translation, without parenthetical insertions to the translation, without Hadith to “support” their interpretation, without Tafseer, and without their own personal commentaries leading us from verse to verse?

When the Shia is forced to produce the Quranic verses without any additions, he will find it impossible to even come close to fulfilling the “Quran Challenge.” Not a single verse in the Quran says anything even remotely close to “O believers, after the Prophet, there will be twelve Imams chosen by Allah and you should follow them.” The Shia can never produce a single verse in the Quran that shows anything even similar to this. In fact, the Shia will be forced to produce long Tafseer and circuitious arguments involving certain verses with added meanings to them; but if we ask the Shia to simply read the verse without any insertions, then suddenly they cannot produce even a single verse in the Quran to justify Imamah. Suffice to say that the Shia becomes polemically incapacitated if he is forced to use the Quran and Quran alone.

[alphabxx]

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 23 Surah Mu’minoon verse 52-55:
And you all belong to one and the same ummah, and I(Allah) am your Lord; so fear Me Alone! Yet afterwards the people divided themselves into different sects, and each sect rejoicing in what it has. Well, leave them deeply involved in their heedlessness up to an appointed time. What? Do they think that, by continuing to provide them with wealth and children, We are solicitous for their welfare? Nay, they do not understand the reality of the matter!

Allahs says in Chapter 42 Surah Ash-Shura aayat 13
"He has appointed for you the same Way of Life, which He had ordained for Noah, and which (O Mohamed (saws)) We have now revealed to you, and which We had already enjoined on Abraham and Moses and Jesus, stressing this: " Establish this way and be not divided in it"."


Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 30 Surah Rum verses 31-32:
"This (Islam) is the right and true faith, but most people do not know. (Be steadfast on this) turning wholly and sincerely towards Allah Alone, and fear Him, and establish the Salat, and do not be like the mushriks, who have set up their separate creeds and divided themselves into sects, each sect rejoicing in what it has."

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 22 Surah Hajj verse 77-78:
O you who have believed, do ‘rukooh’ (bow down) and do ‘sajdah’ (prostration), and worship your Lord Allah Alone, and do righteous deeds: it may be that you attain true success! Exert your utmost for the cause of Allah, as one should. He has chosen you for His service, and has not laid on you any hardship in your religion. Therefore, be steadfast in the religion of your father Abraham. Allah had named you ‘muslims’ before this, and has named you (muslims) in this Quran also, so that the Messenger may be a witness in regard to you, and you may be witnesses in regard to the rest of mankind.

[alphabxx]

]إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا لَسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ ۚ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُمْ بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْعَلُونَ

Transliteration : Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo 'shiya an' lasta minhum fee shayin innama amruhum ila Allahi thumma yunabbiohum bima kanoo yafAAaloona

As for those who divide their deen and break up into sects thou (O Prophet) has no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the Truth of all that they did.

[alphabxx]

The above Quotation is from Surah 6 Al-Anaam Aayah 159

[JavedhJuma]

The Quran Challenge

This is an open challenge for the Shia to give Quranic verses which outline and justify the Shia concept of Imamah. Can the Shia produce even a single verse outlining Imamah, without any additions to the translation, without parenthetical insertions to the translation, without Hadith to “support” their interpretation, without Tafseer, and without their own personal commentaries leading us from verse to verse?

When the Shia is forced to produce the Quranic verses without any additions, he will find it impossible to even come close to fulfilling the “Quran Challenge.” Not a single verse in the Quran says anything even remotely close to “O believers, after the Prophet, there will be twelve Imams chosen by Allah and you should follow them.” The Shia can never produce a single verse in the Quran that shows anything even similar to this. In fact, the Shia will be forced to produce long Tafseer and circuitious arguments involving certain verses with added meanings to them; but if we ask the Shia to simply read the verse without any insertions, then suddenly they cannot produce even a single verse in the Quran to justify Imamah. Suffice to say that the Shia becomes polemically incapacitated if he is forced to use the Quran and Quran alone.

Where did you bring this from? That is definitely not your English. As usual you copy paste what suits you. LOL! Your hatred for the Shias is burning you up. Have never seen a hate monger so vicious in Islam. Kafirs yes, Muslims, No. Are sure you are a Muslim? Your pathetic state is like that of ISIS(L), Abu-Bakar Al Baghdadi!. He is killing Muslims with his weapons and you with your vitriol which does not seem to be working here. People on this forum are more knowledgeable than you. They are learned. Continue My Friend. May Allah SWT give you Taufeeq.LOL!

Have you ever read translation of Qur'an by Ayatullah Agha Pooya Yazdi and Mir Ahmed Ali? They are openly claiming references in the Qur'an about Imams. I prefer to believe them.

[JavedhJuma]

Imagine javedh lines up behind twice divorced, Alcohol merchant, Horace breeder with his record of no Salat, no Jumma prayers, no Hajj and no Zakat?

More accusations without proof! What can I expect from the progeny of Abu Jahal?You are a real Jahaliya! Pathetic! And really Sick! After all the examples I gave you of the Prophets, including the Prophet SAW of Islam, and you still are chasing your tail like a rabid dog!? Alcohol merchant? What about somebody who said Prophet SAW was an alcoholic. You never proved otherwise. What is "horace" breeder? And ther rest is as stupid as you. You can't spell, can't think, can't write and then you have the nerve to teach us about Islam? Learn ethics of Islam first. Were you born an orphan? Never got love of your parents and your religious leaders, or were you abused by them so now you are jealous of others. Get a psychiatrist. First put your life in order.

You know very well that your accusations are false. Please read Sura 104 again with footnotes. You still have time otherwise you are going to burn in Hell!


And imagine Munira lines up behind two dies who are still fighting about who is representing Imam? What are two "dies"?



And Twelvers it is hard to imagine Imam thousands of years. May be for you, but not for them because they are not Jahils like you!

Guys use brain. It is simple your deeds are your Salvation . Period.

Please list your deeds! Why don't you use your brain first and go to school before going from forum to forum. You have been kicked off from forums too like a football without Air!

You know My Friend, If I were not allowed to participate in full forum, and restricted to Islam only, I would pick up and go. However, you can't do that because where will you go to display your ignorance. Besides nobody wants you and likes of you on their forums.

You are quite an (evil) entertainer. I guess that is why Admin is keeping you here.LOL!

[Munira_RV]

[Pickthal 17:71] On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.

Imam in 17:71 is used for book of deeds.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا فَتِيلًا

Abdullah Yusuf Ali: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Word "Record book" in Arabic is written in red text = كِتَابَهُ

Word "Imam" in Arabic is written in green text = بِإِمَامِهِمْ

So in verse above "Imam" is separate entity and "record book" is separate entity, they are not one and same. Should they have been same then word "كِتَابَهُ" should have been used instead of word "بِإِمَامِهِمْ".

As Muslim First bhai himself says in his post in this thread in reference to verse 21:73 - the word "Imams" have been used for Prophets i.e. for humans and not for record books. So we learn from Quran that word "Imam" is used in context of human leader and not in reference of 'record book'.

Coming back to 17:71 - As Abdullah Yusuf Ali correctly puts up: all humans (of all era) will be called with their Imams, and they will be given their record books of their deeds. This verse clearly and categorically reveals and acknowledge: Imams as the leader of all people in all era.

Above fails challenge given by some sects to Fatimi Dawat Shia's!

[Bohra spring]

What about somebody who said ?........ was an alcoholic.

Auzubillah who is making such sinful comments ...how many times can people be warned don't drag the Prophet SAW into your arguments.

I cannot trace the chain of blogs , what caused the commenter to make such an abhorrent comment.

[anajmi]

Munira_RV,

You do not know your Imam. Neither did your parents or grand parents know their Imam. Since you do not know your Imam, how will you be called with your Imam?

[Muslim First]

Imam in 17:71 is used for book of deeds.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا فَتِيلًا

Abdullah Yusuf Ali: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Word "Record book" in Arabic is written in red text = كِتَابَهُ

Word "Imam" in Arabic is written in green text = بِإِمَامِهِمْ

Have you read Yusuf Ali's comment of 17:71?
Here it is
266 I have discussed various meanings of Imam in 2:124, n, 124. What is the meaning here? The Commentators are divided. Some understand the meaning to be that each People or Group will appear with its Leader, who will bear witness to its virtues or sins: Cf. 16:84. Another view is that the Imam is their revelation, their Book. A third is that the Imam is the record of deeds spoken of in the next clause. I prefer the first.


Now think again
You are gathered with all Human beings and with Imams. Now it say Imam in right hand or left hand.
Now think is your invisible imam is going to jump and get in your right or left hand? And jump into next guys hand as soon as Allah is done with you. Do you think Ismaili leader Karim Aga khan will be leader of his Murids or he will be in line with sood eating, gambling promoter and womanizing record in his left hand. How is your present Dai or his Marhum father is going to help you since he is going to be judged for exploitations and idol worshipping?

As Muslim First bhai himself says in his post in this thread in reference to verse 21:73 - the word "Imams" have been used for Prophets i.e. for humans and not for record books. So we learn from Quran that word "Imam" is used in context of human leader and not in

[Muslim First]

And imagine Munira lines up behind two dies who are still fighting about who is representing Imam? What are two "dies"?

Dai Muffadal and his uncle

[JavedhJuma]

And imagine Munira lines up behind two dies who are still fighting about who is representing Imam? What are two "dies"?

Dai Muffadal and his uncle

Muffadal Bhaisaheb and his uncle are two Dais, not dies! Totally different!

[Munira_RV]

Munira_RV,

You do not know your Imam. Neither did your parents or grand parents know their Imam. Since you do not know your Imam, how will you be called with your Imam?

anjami bhai,

Verse 17:71 - Abdullah Yusuf Ali: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Read again the above bold and underlined text: Allah (and not we) will peg all humans with their respective Imams. I believe that you believe that Allah knows which human has to be pegged with which Imam. So whether I and my forefather knows or doesn't know identity of our respective Imam is immaterial because it is Allah who will call us humans with our respective Imams, and Allah knows all.

[anajmi]

Well, if it is Allah that is doing the calling, then, as countless traditions suggest, each Ummah will be called with the prophets that were sent to them. The prophets were also their Imams. Since we know the prophet (saw), whilst the Imam is unknown, it would be better to assume that the Imam referred to in the above ayah is the prophet (saw). Other ayahs in the Quran suggest that the prophet (saw) will be a witness.

The purpose of the Imam would be to clarify whether he showed us the right path or not. Since you do not know your Imam, he probably didn't show you anything. However, the prophet (saw) did show you the right path and he can be a witness for us on judgment day.

[JavedhJuma]

Now think again
You are gathered with all Human beings and with Imams. Now it say Imam in right hand or left hand.
Now think is your invisible imam is going to jump and get in your right or left hand? And jump into next guys hand as soon as Allah is done with you. Do you think Ismaili leader Karim Aga khan will be leader of his Murids or he will be in line with sood eating, gambling promoter and womanizing record in his left hand. How is your present Dai or his Marhum father is going to help you since he is going to be judged for exploitations and idol worship.

And how is your jahaliyat going to help you? You have called a Muslim a Mushrik. That is not your place to decide. It is up to Allah SWt. You have done fitnah and accused people of falsities, how is that going to help you. Sura 104 explains it clearly where you are going to end up. You have even ignored that Sura. Are you really following Qur'an? Looks like you are a mouthpiece of Iblis, the serpent with venom for every Shia. You will regret it one day. By then it will be too late.


Your perception of the Shia Imams is like a Jahil's view of Qur'an and Rasool SAW. As stated in the first line, you are somebody who visualises and not somebody who thinks with a brain. You accept from the Qur'an what suits you and reject what doesn't, like you recently did. What difference does it make to me? I don't even care what you think anymore.Neither do your interpretations of Suras. You are one against the whole world who believe Ismaili Imam is the direct descendant of the Prophet SAW and a true guide amongst the Nizari Ismaili-Muslims and a good man among Muslims and non-Muslims. What difference does it make to what your perception is: Especuially of an illiterate, Jahil person like you.You are a follower of the Thug of Najd. Even the Prophet SAW said The Head of Shaitan will rise in Najad. He blessed the people Sham and Yemen repeatedly but refused to bless the people of Najd.

I doubt if anybody with a sound mind, learned man, believes in your stupid accusations. They must be laughing at your pathetic state. Why don't you get a Psychiatrist. You will be doing a big favour to your community.

Don't worry about the Dais, Shia Imams : Worry about yourself.

[Munira_RV]

Well, if it is Allah that is doing the calling, then, as countless traditions suggest, each Ummah will be called with the prophets that were sent to them. The prophets were also their Imams. Since we know the prophet (saw), whilst the Imam is unknown, it would be better to assume that the Imam referred to in the above ayah is the prophet (saw). Other ayahs in the Quran suggest that the prophet (saw) will be a witness.

The purpose of the Imam would be to clarify whether he showed us the right path or not. Since you do not know your Imam, he probably didn't show you anything. However, the prophet (saw) did show you the right path and he can be a witness for us on judgment day.

Does Sunni literature tells names of all 124,000 prophets? No. Many of the Prophets identities are unknown. Likewise many Imams identities are concealed. Identity unknown of Prophets/Imams is not uncommon in the world of Islam.

Prophethood ends with Prophet Mohamed (S). Now all Muslims born after Mohamed (S) will be called by Allah with their Imam/Prophet - but as Prophethood has stopped so Allah will call us humans post Mohamed (S) with our respective Imams as are worded in verse 17:71. Thus post of Imamat is established in Quran which punctures the challenge thrown by some on Fatimi Dawat Shias.

[anajmi]

Does Sunni literature tells names of all 124,000 prophets? No. Many of the Prophets identities are unknown.

Correct. You do not need to know the identity of all prophets as they won't be called as witnesses upon you. They will be called as witnesses upon those to whom they were sent. They are known to the communities to which they were sent. You know prophet Mohammad (saw) because he was sent as a prophet upon you. You need to know only the prophet that will be called as a witness upon you. Similarly, if you say that some Imam will be called as a witness upon you, then you need to know that Imam.

but as Prophethood has stopped so Allah will call us humans post Mohamed (S) with our respective Imams as are worded in verse 17:71.

Since you have no clue who your Imam is, may be Allah decided to stop Imamhood as well. How can you tell? There is no Imam around right?

Thus post of Imamat is established in Quran

Only for the prophets.

[Munira_RV]

Correct. You do not need to know the identity of all prophets as they won't be called as witnesses upon you. They will be called as witnesses upon those to whom they were sent. They are known to the communities to which they were sent. You know prophet Mohammad (saw) because he was sent as a prophet upon you. You need to know only the prophet that will be called as a witness upon you. Similarly, if you say that some Imam will be called as a witness upon you, then you need to know that Imam.

At first place you don't even know the names of all 124,000 Prophets then on what basis can you claim that the then all people knew Prophet of their respective era?!!! You do not have any basis, all you are doing is guess work, and Quran says, a guess can never take place of facts. Because of these "qayaas" business by non-Bohras they have deviated from Islam.

Mohamed (S) declared his Prophethood at age of forty, so all people who passed away during those years were unknown of the identity of their Prophet!

Eg) Prophet Nooh (S) will be pegged with people who died till he himself died. Now, people who are born after death of Nooh (S) will they be pegged with Nooh (S) or with Hazrat Saam (S)? Of course with later. Likewise, for all - Musa (S) will be leader of all who died till he died, and he will not be leader of people born after Musa. By the same token Mohamed (S) died and will be pegged with people who died till he himself died.

Now what about all people born after Mohamed (S)?

Like Muslims in era of Hz. Saam (S) or Hz. Shamoon (S) or Hz. Yusho (S), Muslims post Moahmed (S) death too will be pegged with the Imams succeeding Mohamed (S). Quran has said, the chain of Prophethood has stopped but not that of Imamat.