This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

[zinger]

mock and ridicule shia beliefs of Imam in Zuhoor and other articles of faith

Zinger
Here is the problem, Imam in Zuhoor, how do you define, There are so many different theories among Shia believers who is the true Imam. Jafferia have different meaning, Dawoodi Bohras have different version and Aga Khani who consider themselves Shia have a living Imam so naturally people have questions since Dawoodi Bohra Clergy refuses to discuss these in public and those who attend those SECRET SABAKS refuse to educate masses have reasons to doubt.
Specially when STS himself denied in Courts that there is no such thing as Imam (has been discussed on this forum with proof) so obviously people want to know
You yourself questioned creation which is from Quran but you have problem people asking about Imam, how ironic it is

SBM bhai, here is the problem from my perspective. The existence of the Imam (whether hidden or visible) is a fundamental Dawoodi Bohra Muslim and other Shia Muslim articles of faith. Who this Imam might be is irrelevant. The existence of the Imam is relevant.

Why the Kothar refuses to discuss this in public and why people who attend secret sabaks dont divulge it is not something i can discuss on. Infact, in my opinion, maybe Asad might want to elaborate on it since he has informed us he has attended a few sabaks

As to why Taher Saifuddin Maula denied the existence of the Imam, my guess would be that he lied (yes he committed perjury) because if he would have admitted it, he would probably be forced to reveal more. If you understand the Shia doctrine (and i dont, but what i am saying here is based on the limited understanding i have from this site) the Imam needs to be in seclusion/stay hidden for reasons not known to us.
So it is possible he committed perjury to safeguard the identity of the Imam. Just like how you have your view on this, this is mine

And as for the last point, i suggest you take a GOOD LONG HARD LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. not even once have i said science is true and religion is false or visa-versa. i was merely calling for a discussion.
i infact countered Anajmi when he told me that science and religion cannot co-exist and i told him that THEY CAN, and that would perhaps explain the missing link, where one took a back seat and allowed the other to take over

[zinger]

This imam zaman story has evolved and we find innovative ways to explain it to make it credible...in our minds we know it does not make sense but we are too embarrassed to question it and we just accept it under the excuse to retain our identity, or ideology or doctrine or some fancy word to intellectually justify it.

The fear is if we try to ignore the concept the foundation of the faith collapses and we cannot justify so many of our ideological principles like Diai, history or rituals. It serves the Diais to remain the centre of the bohra faith.

that is your point of view. if you find it incredulous, then feel free to not believe it, but then, like i said before, you are question Shia doctrine itself.

[fayyaaz]

i infact countered Anajmi when he told me that science and religion cannot co-exist and i told him that THEY CAN, and that would perhaps explain the missing link, where one took a back seat and allowed the other to take over

Dichotomy is not between Science and Religion. It is actually between Philosophy and Religion. Let me explain.

Religion deals with death, the existential fear of every human being. Human fear death of self and of loved ones and they experience it a thousand times while they are alive. If your daughter/son does not call you or does not answer your call while they are away from you, you fear the worst and that is the fear of losing them. You pile up regrets for lost lover, lost childhood, and all those people and things which you know are gone forever.

Religion steps in to offer eternal life as long as you live your life in total trust in the Divine and in complete humility. They promise that you will encounter your loved once more after death and you will live in bliss forever united once more with them. Of course every Religion has its own brand for the life in the Hereafter. Christians will be with Christ who is the Way. Hindus will be with Paramatma and so on. Muslims will have their own Paradise so vividly described in the Quran and hadith.

Being Bohras, you have a problem. You do not want to end up with Christians, Hindus and non-Bohra Muslims. Yo do not want to be with Umar, Muawiya, Yazid and their modern followers. Remember they also offer Muslim Paradise to their followers. Just like you need Safai Chit to be in the company of Bohras during Hajj, where you get to experience being in Heaven at its climactic moment, you can guarantee your place among your loved ones in Paradise by taking Ruku Chit with you to your grave. Remember, follower of every religion must trust their teachers and have faith and humility in the face of the Divine.

Thus the whole system of Religion is to assuage the existential fear of death, either here or in the hereafter. You simply do not want to be alone and you want to be with those you love. If you are 'baarated out', that is like a living death. And you don't want that to happen in Heaven too.

Of course we will have Pure Muslims calling these things shirk, idol worship etc. That is OK. No one has the monopoly of truth except in the twisted minds of the Pure Muslims. We have a prominent one on this forum, a Pure Muslim.

Let us turn then to Philosophy. Its enterprise is total lack of trust in the Divine. They believe that they are better off looking within to seek happiness rather then look out to the other. They start out with nature and use reason to pursue knowledge of the Cosmos and they discovered what a marvelous thing it is. They created morals and ethics based on the harmony they observed in nature. To this day, Philosophers always look at Science and what they can learn from it. They stared death in its face but through reason and logic overcame their fear of death and offered many ways to organize societies. So, science is subsumed under philosophy. Newton's books on Physics are called Natural Philosophy.

Christian religious teachers were the first to condemn philosophy. They accused them of lack of trust (atheism) and gross arrogance and said, like Satan, they will be hurled into eternal fire. Modern day Kharijites, who call themselves the purest Muslims, have special hatred for most Muslim Philosophers. They have on many occasions persecuted them and burned their books.

The point is that Religions and Philosophies cannot co-exist. They are diametrically opposed. It is a misnomer to name religious speculations, philosophies. Thus Christian, Hindu, Muslim philosophies are contradictions in terms. The dichotomy is between 'No Reason to formulate the Divine' and 'Total Faith in the Divine'; Divine as understood by religions. Ancient Greek Philosophers used the word Divine for Observable Harmony in Nature.

Let us now see the Pure Muslims making hay. Quran as I alone can reveal to you, he will say, says 'this' and he will condemn similar sayings by Christians, Jews, Hindus etc. from their respective Holy Books. Like Chirst, he will say, I am the Truth, the Way and Gate to Eternal Salvation.

Let me guess what they will say about me. Fayyaaz/Maethist has an episode of verbal diarrhea. We are so comfortable here sitting at the feet of a Great Muslim and benefiting from his eternal wisdom. We do not want anyone like him. Let him go jump in a lake. Let him go fly a kite etc. etc.

[fayyaaz]

Truth always shines out whatever it is !

Nothing is further from truth.

TRUTH is always Hidden. If it shined everyone would be a Saint. Unfortunately, a lot of effort is needed in the quest for the TRUTH. Most miss it.

[zinger]

Fayyaz,

i didnt quite understand all that you wrote, but never mind, that is my limited education.

anyways, i was debating with anajmi on religion v/s science. theory of evolution v/s theory of creation, not religion v/s philosophy

and i wouldnt care too much what other people think or say about your post if i was you.

i used to get worked up when people attacked my pov but over time i realised that just as i have a POV, they have a POV and if i can accept theirs and they refuse to accept mine, then thats their prerogative

[anajmi]

i didnt quite understand all that you wrote, but never mind, that is my limited education.

That was the point behind it. As biradar would say, hit the library and spend a few months there.

[anajmi]

i infact countered Anajmi when he told me that science and religion cannot co-exist

That tells us how much you would've really understood had I actually debated with you.

[fayyaaz]

Pre-Socratic philosophers brought true enlightenment in learning with Reason paramount in establishing free inquiring societies and freed them from superstitious religions.

Then it was all downhill with Socrates' brilliant pupil Plato establishing an academy which was the founder of Fascistic and Absolutist societies. Plato's mantle was picked up by Aristotle but he re-introduced enlightening ideas and taught them to Alexander, who never learned any Philosophy but took to bashing the heads of half the known world. For this he is given the epithet, Alexander the Great. Plato's school was finally closed by the Roman Emperor Justinian who had become a Christian and that unleashed the European Dark Ages when Religion reigned supreme, and book burning was taken to its zenith.

Luckily, Arabs, many Muslims among them, who had learned about Greek philosophy, preserved these ancient works for the posterity. They even reinterpreted their scripture in the light of that knowledge. With weakening of the Church, Europeans retrieved their ancient learning from the Arabs and unleashed an age of Enlightenment with unparalleled progress in thought. Europeans and Americans still benefit from this and have lived through the most prosperous and knowledge-filled centuries ever witnessed. They also manged to establish humane societies with concepts of human rights and justice unknown in the Arab or Muslim world. Unfortunate byproduct of European success was that they brought non-Europeans under their hegemony.

Muslims look upon their condition in despair. There arose among them Pure Muslims who decided that the root cause of the Muslim malaise was their deviation from Scripture and they decided to purify Muslims based on the teachings of a fanatical Arab from Najd. Where they succeeded, they unleashed a reign of terror killing Muslims who were considered not to be following their interpretation of the Scripture. This process is on-going.

In the West no one bothers about your beliefs. But if you are Pure Muslim, it is imperative that you learn only the Quran and the teachings of a Najdi fanatic. You must sport a beard or face death. You must not educate your girls except how to recite the Quran. You must cover them up completely and not let anyone set eyes on them. This came into effect in Talibanist Afghanistan and in areas under ISIS control.

Pakistan is another case where Pure Muslims have much success. If you want a passport or an identity card, you must first swear under oath that you will have nothing to do with Ahmadiyyas. You will not employ them or be one of them or learn from them. This has to be declared on the application forms. You can actually download them from Pakistani Embassy website.

Imagine a Western Government asking you to declare that you are not a Muslim before getting a passport.

Now you know why Muslims in Muslim countries want to emigrate to the United States. Many Pure Muslims are in the USA and Europe and are actively engaged in promoting the Pure Muslim ideology. No wonder they are under suspicion and they drag the rest of Muslims down with them.

I suggest Pure Muslims on this forum to emigrate to Afghanistan, Pakistan or Najd if they have courage of their convictions. But they will not. They are the scum of Islam and the world.

[anajmi]

The most important duty of every pure muslim is to purify others. The most in need of purification are the bohras because of their idol worshipping ways.

[SBM]

The most important duty of every pure muslim is to purify others. The most in need of purification are the bohras because of their idol worshipping ways.

And also Atheist like Maethist aka Fayyaz as well as Muinra RV aka Badrijanab,

[fayyaaz]

The most important duty of every pure muslim is to purify others. The most in need of purification are the bohras because of their idol worshipping ways.

Words straight from the mouth Of God! Didn't I tell you guys? And who immediately followed this God with his comment?

[SBM]

Atleast I do follow a GOD unlike you who calls himself an Atheist and cannot defend Atheism but does butt in everyone else's beliefs of religion

[anajmi]

fayyaaz,

By calling me a god, you are committing shirk and kufr, ergo, you are a kafir.

[SBM]

fayyaaz,

By calling me a god, you are committing shirk and kufr, ergo, you are a kafir.

He is an Atheist does not believe in GOD just defends Kothari Goons (ilah ul Ard) and their supporter (

[fayyaaz]

God and the Son of God

[anajmi]

SBM,

He is not an atheist, he is a kothari goon in disguise, here to protect the right of the bohras to get screwed from whomever they see fit. If we were to convince the bohras of not getting screwed, fayyaaz will be out of the weekly share of the loot. And by the way, this is evident from the doxtractixquixote matrix.

[abde53]

Admin Bhai
can you lock this thread as this is now useless thread

[fayyaaz]

SBM,

He is not an atheist, he is a kothari goon in disguise, here to protect the right of the bohras to get screwed from whomever they see fit. If we were to convince the bohras of not getting screwed, fayyaaz will be out of the weekly share of the loot. And by the way, this is evident from the doxtractixquixote matrix.

doxtractixquixote matrix

A veritable tawil from God. It is like Alif, Lam, Meem. No one but God knows its secrets.

[fayyaaz]

Admin Bhai
can you lock this thread as this is now useless thread

Why? Don't like God's Words of Wisdom?

[fayyaaz]

So, the Pure Muslims on this forum, led by the irrepressible anajmi, vociferously utter their rallying cry, "Quran and Sunna". Which Quran and which Sunna? Pure Muslims counter there is only one Quran and there is only one Sunna.

If you ask the Pure Muslims if they know Arabic and can interpret the words of the Quran and Sunna for themselves. They will say it has already been done. There is only One pure interpretation, that by an Eighteenth Century Najdi Fanatic.

If you ask them about the contributions of Medieval Muslim Scholars of various shades of belief and views, they will simply say they were deviants and will readily consign their works to fire.

They will do the same to other historical relics like shrines and objects and buildings associated with great Muslims, like those of the Prophet himself.

Had it not been for the Western technological wizardry which enabled the followers of the Najdi fanatic, their oil would have remained in the ground and they would still be living with pre-historic mindsets. In fact they still do. They just have modern architecture and modern apparatus to tyrannize their population.

Despite the fact the Najdi Rulers share crumbs of the largess of nature that they have appropriated for themselves, Saudis have begun to realize how unequal their share actually is and are beginning to protest only to be met with an iron hand of suppression. Arab Oil Sheikhs' money allows them to employ a highly tiered class of foreigners to keep their power going. At the bottom rung of these foreigners are Pakistanis, Sri Lankans and Filipinos. They have no rights and live in a brutal police state. Foreigners from Western countries fare better only in monetary terms but they have no rights either and woe betide any of them if they fell foul of officials.

These Najdis claim to be the Purest of Muslims and are able to export their brand of Pure Islam to susceptible foreigners in Pakistan and the would-be Pure Muslims in the rest of the world, their rallying cry "Quran and Sunna' ringing louder every day. Westerners are all for this and support the Najdis implicitly. Like the Najdi Rulers, Westerners are not concerned with the rights in or the development of Muslim peoples as long as they are comfortable, thank you very much.

And non-Najdi Pure Muslims fall for this lie hook, line and sinker and seek to destroy all else. Destruction of the faith of the Bohras is the avowed aim of Pure Muslims on this forum.

[fayyaaz]

Hey SBM,

Did you finally learn the difference between Ashura and Ashara?

When transliterated, the words look identical except for 4th letter; u for Ashura and a for Ashara. But in Arabic they look totally different.

Since you are intellectually challenged and still may not know the difference, let me write them out here in the original Arabic.

Ashara means Ten. It is written عشرة. It is spelt ain, sheen, ra, ta marbuta. Ta marbuta signifies that it is considered a feminine word.

Ashura means the 10th of Muharram. It is written عاشوراء. It is spelt ain, alif, sheen, waaw, ra, alif, hamza. The alif-hamza combination at the end of this word is called alif mamdudah. In this case it is an honorific feminine plural word used for the 10th Muharram, it being the holy day for both the Sunnis and the Shia.

Next time, ask a knowledgeable Bohra before shooting your mouth er...keyboard with an ignorant claim.

[fayyaaz]

lol " knowledgeable bohra" that's an oxymoron

This ignorant anajmi a*$*-licker must be an embarrassment even to anajmi. He has nothing to contribute to the forum but I suppose he must be kept here to display the type of brain-dead morons that anajmi attracts.

[anajmi]

Actually, this is from bro Biradar

Friend fayyaaz, you are mostly correct in your observation. The problem really is that. in many ways, the words "knowledgeable Bohra" is an oxymoron.

So either Biradar is an ignorant anajmi a*$*-licker or, jockey is as smart as Biradar and you are the moron.

[fayyaaz]

Actually, this is from bro Biradar

Friend fayyaaz, you are mostly correct in your observation. The problem really is that. in many ways, the words "knowledgeable Bohra" is an oxymoron.

So either Biradar is an ignorant anajmi a*$*-licker or, jockey is as smart as Biradar and you are the moron.

OK then, you love your ignorant a*$*-lickers and are not a tiny bit embarrassed by them.

[zinger]

i infact countered Anajmi when he told me that science and religion cannot co-exist

That tells us how much you would've really understood had I actually debated with you.

Why did you stop then, my friend?

[anajmi]

Cause you don't even know what it was that we were "debating".

[zinger]

i knew very well what we were. you in your hurry to discredit anything anyone else says diverted the topic and twisted it around

[humanbeing]

Fayyaz


Wow ! Your posts are all over, you got some serious issues with everyone ! specially wahabi/salafi/najdi or any other name you would like to add with your profound understanding of world religions ! Although you have a lot of soft corner for fatimid bohra beleifs. May I ask what other beliefs are fine and acceptable in your realms of knowledge ?



I don’t have any problems with anyone’s beleifs . I m open to discussions, correction, agreement and disagreements. Be it Fatimid, wahabi, Christian or hindu beleifs ! for me all of these are theories, philosophies, beliefs from the past or present created to direct human behavior, be it good or bad, which can be discussed.


It is very clear you are dead against wahabi belief, due to its purist or perfectionist outlook and violent extremist application. There are other beliefs too which more or less are same, such as Christians, hindus, and even Fatimid beleifs. Every faith is out there in the world condemning the other to be false and creating violence against each other. History is well known to you. So you may see that, All these religious philosophies have a bloody past, including Fatimid belief which you defend religiously. Please do correct me, wherever I am insufficient in my understanding.


Is it the people who are mis-using the belief system ? or is it the belief in its content wrong ?


Please clarify your religious outlook ? only for the sake of discussion !


Please put forward your views, how does Fatimid belief differ or better from other purist/perfectionist religious beliefs.

[fayyaaz]

humanbeing,

I am not strictly for or against any statement of belief or faith. And here I confine my comments to religious beliefs held by large numbers of people ranging from a million upwards. Ultimately they are man-made and people should be free to practice those beliefs without attacks from those whose beliefs differ. No belief or faith is better than or worse than any other belief

I am against those who would consider their beliefs to be the only valid ones and then unleash terror on those who do not share those beliefs. They assume they have God-given responsibility to force their beliefs on everyone. The case in point are the followers of the Najdi fanatic who hate anyone who calls himself a Muslim if they do not subscribe to their interpretation of scripture.

Because this is a Bohra forum, I defend their liberty. If I was on an Ahmadiyya forum, I would defend their rights against attack too.

[SBM]

I am against those who would consider their beliefs to be the only valid ones

Is not that what Fatimid Dai tells everyone in the Waiz that only Mumin who follow Dai are going to Jannat and they are the only one who are on right path and righteous
And you have no problem defending them