This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

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fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#181

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:47 pm

SBM wrote:Admin
I am a Dawoodi Bohra with E Jamaat card and I did attend a Nikkah ceremony at in NJ Mosque and no one dared stop me. Since the event was paid by people who invited me it was not free loading as your Chamchas would jump to accuse me.
So I have full rights to go to any Mosque including Bohras as they are enjoying US Tax supported NON PROFIT Status.
I am not rear kisser of SMS like you. I decide on my own terms when I do go and what I do and I challenge you and your Kothari Masters to stop me if and when I do go to any Markaz or Masjid.
So you are an anti-Bohra. Sorry to call you an ex-Bohra. I thought that you had previously indicated that you no longer carry a card.

I agree that you have a perfect right, and I defend your right, to attend any place of worship including a Bohra masjid. If Bohra goondas stop you from entering a Bohra masjid, then you should sue them in a court of law. I will support you there.

Since you are also anajmi's a*$*-licker, I suggest that you entreat anajmi to follow you in your footsteps and no longer reply to my post.

Why should admin bow to your request to ban me if he does not take similar action against anajmi and AZ who say much the same thing in all their posts?

I appreciate that you are asking Admin to request anajmi to stop responding to my posts. But why should admin ask him because you do not like him responding to them? You do that. Or just stay away from the forum and you will have peace. But, if you stay, then learn to ignore my posts and anajmi's responses or fester within. Your choice.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#182

Unread post by abde53 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:27 pm

Fayyaz Bhai
You speak too much, you bark like dog. you said yo are aethist but you want to defend every one
who are you , Gandhiji or Nelson Mandela. Tell me your real name and where do yo live since many Burhani Goondas have threatened me and my family and I need you to defend me for harrassemnt. Can you do it or you are just a talker and talk is cheap.
Bhaashan Aaapwa maa tamney laage chey key Modi Saheb ghani madaad kari chey.
So I need you to defend me and my family physically and I need to know where do you live and your address-name and phone number.
I need defense because my son;s name is Khuzema which was given by Moula Burhanuddin and now every one gives laanat to him and want me to change his name but this name was given by Muqaddas Moula Burhanuddin and I need you to defend my right to keep the name and tell every one in Saify Mahal to stop giving laanat to my son. CAN YOU DO IT

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#183

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:36 pm

He will defend your right only on an anonymous forum.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#184

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:39 pm

Let me suggest a reason why one or two ex-Bohras and anti-Bohras want my head on the platter.

They accuse me of being, in SBM's words, "a rear kisser of SMS". But they ignore my constant rejoinder that I do not follow SMS or SKQ. In other words they believe that I am lying. They also accuse me of being an atheist, as if that is a crime. I would like to know if an atheist can be a follower of SMS. :lol:

The reason that they want me banned is the one I have alluded to many times. They only want ex-Bohras or anti-Bohras to participate because that confirms their bias and hatred for Bohras. They also want Bohras to participate so they can party by hounding them to silence. They have nothing new to say but they say the same things, admittedly, concerning new enfolding events and gossips.

I do not fall into any of those categories and they dream up accusations they can level against me, only tangentially, related to some words from my posts taken out of context. They are groping to pin me in the Bohra category, specially its fanatic subset. They simply do not like their comfort being disturbed.

There! Why don't they learn simply to ignore what I post? They are not losing any money over it. Maybe some sleep. :lol:
Last edited by fayyaaz on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#185

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:49 pm

abde53,

Do you live in the United States? Then, if you are physically threatened by Burhani goondas, you should inform the police and seek court order against the goonds. That recourse is available to you. You do not need me . However if you create an on-line petition for support against these goonds, I will gladly put my signature to it.

By the way, why did Burhani goonds threaten you? Did you openly express anti-Bohra or anti-SMS view in their presence? That was not wise. Do that here on this forum anonymously. Remember my example about going into gang-infested areas of Los Angeles. You do that at your own risk.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#186

Unread post by SBM » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:24 pm

I think in his earlier statement somewhere on this forum he had mentioned he lives in Mumbai and his son was going to one the Bohra School.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#187

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:58 pm

I believe that I need to add a further category of participants to my four. Those are Reformists who are members of the Udaipur Reformist Jamaat and other affiliated Reformist Jamaats around the globe.

I am not clear whether they have an interest in Reform of Bohras, followers of SMS or SKQ. They already operate autonomously and may no longer desire association with Bohras. I cannot be certain if there are anti-Bohra participants on this forum from those Reformist Jamaats. Until I learn more about them I will assume that they are not participating here although I cannot rule them out from being mere browsers.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#188

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:14 pm

Things have reached to such a stage where every post communicated on the forum for the purpose of useful comments is hijaked to settle some old scores by the members among each other.

The Forum can boast of the credentials of its members. We are fortunate to have a very learned yet level headed Administrator also. There have been debates and useful suggestions made on various important and burning topics to make felt the existance of the Forum in the society. But for the past few days I am feeling that the better talents of the members are being used not for any constructive purpose ,instead either to promote oneself or to belittle other fellow members .Thereby not only wasting their own talents but also creating an unhealthy atmosphere. I am sure this may
not be the feelings of me alone . Every honourable member will also be carrying the same feeling ,

In the circumstances above will it be out of place to request all the members to consider only the subject matter for their comments. As has been seen recently an adverse remark leads to another adverse remarks, in reply similarly a good and appreciative remark will lead to even better appreciative remark in reply ,Then why not try ones upmanship in appreciating others talent, good virtues and knowledge on the subject matter here after. A resolution among themselves to not to indulge in future, passing irritative remarks against any member as a self imposed code of conduct will do lot of good service to the forum inturn to society, and human beings , which is in fact the aim of all the members. In this way one's talent can be re used perfectly .

Rebel
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:42 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#189

Unread post by Rebel » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:01 pm

abde53 wrote:Fayyaz Bhai
You speak too much, you bark like dog. you said yo are aethist but you want to defend every one
who are you , Gandhiji or Nelson Mandela. Tell me your real name and where do yo live since many Burhani Goondas have threatened me and my family and I need you to defend me for harrassemnt. Can you do it or you are just a talker and talk is cheap.
Bhaashan Aaapwa maa tamney laage chey key Modi Saheb ghani madaad kari chey.
So I need you to defend me and my family physically and I need to know where do you live and your address-name and phone number.
I need defense because my son;s name is Khuzema which was given by Moula Burhanuddin and now every one gives laanat to him and want me to change his name but this name was given by Muqaddas Moula Burhanuddin and I need you to defend my right to keep the name and tell every one in Saify Mahal to stop giving laanat to my son. CAN YOU DO IT
This clearly shows how horrific the members of our community are and their low intellectual capacity with which they denigrate and insult other community members. It is unethical to create mental commotion and distress in someone's life by saying lanat to the community member just because he has a certain name.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#190

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:02 pm

To return to my categorization of participants of this forum.

Ex-Bohras are not interested in Reform. They want Bohras to rid themselves of their religion altogether and join their version of 'Pure Islam'

Reformists (Udaipuris and similar groups) are already reforming themselves without currently thinking about reforming Bohras.

Bohras want to stay with SMS and SKQ and are not interested in talking about Reforms with Anti-Bohras and specially with Ex-Bohras.

That leaves anti-Bohras. This group has fundamental reservations not only about SMS and SKQ but also about the Fatimid doctrines themselves. They are hypocrites to a lesser or greater extent. This group stays within the community out of fear of not being left out in the cold during important rites of passage. This group has very little chance to reform the community.

As has been said, reform starts with the individual. An anti-Bohra should stare his hypocrisy in its face and learn to handle the fear of being left alone. In the West, I have seen several Bohras who have been married by non-Bohra Muslim officials in the presence of family and friends, Bohras and others. They have left the community. I have also seen several Bohras having their funerals conducted in a Muslim fashion by non-Bohra Muslim officials, similarly in the presence family and friends. All of them appear to be happily settled in their lives and religion plays almost no part in their lives. This is a clear choice for anti-Bohras in the West.

Those anti-Bohras and non-participants of this forum including the majority of Bohras who live in Asia and Africa, who have liberal spiritual tendencies may opt for another Muslim sect or another religion, the one which just prays together and occasionally eats together. This has a danger of leaving a lingering hypocrisy within themselves. So, who wants to be brave and be completely free of hypocritical living altogether?

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#191

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:26 pm

fayyaaz wrote:To return to my categorization of participants of this forum.
since you seem to be so obsessed with categorisation of forum members and have displayed exemplary passion in your careful study and scholarly analysis of their various species and sub-species, i suggest you enrol yrself in any of the jameas run by the kothar in karachi, mumbai or east africa and complete your erudite dissertation on this highly interesting subject for which there is a crying need in the bohra universe.

with your superior intellect and extraordinary powers of observation, it should not take you longer than 1 year to complete this doctoral thesis. once complete, please post the thesis here so we can enjoy its fruits (2 lemons, 1 banana). we wait with bated breath...

Ozdundee
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#192

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:48 am

There are those who leave and take refuge in new societies and then there are those few lion hearts that stand back to resist oppression and fight for freedom and self respect...the later are usually few in numbers but big in resolve.

Just imagine how cruel life would be if those pioneers of reform turned a blind eye...how extreme some rules and oppressive measures would have been..can only imagine.

SMS is very cautious and alert...he fears reformists as much he does SKQ

reformist may not create an opposing community..but it gives a voice and conscience ..when none is offered

It is sometimes a thankless task...but someone got to do it.

I wonder if the moderates realize the fruits of choice they enjoy was not given on a silver plate but hard fought by reformists and snatched from the teeth of Kothar

This anti Bohra accusation is BS it is the weak attack on reformists credibility. I have stated we can leave side by side we express our freedom of speech and faith and they can express their freedom by insulting anyone who disagrees with them...but to go as far as threaten and excommunicate crosses the line of attributes of civilized society

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#193

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:47 am

There are many on this forum who advises to leave the community if not happy with its functioning. It is useless advise and harmful suggestion. Kothar does not spare any dissent or withdrawal from the community. Even if one wants to leave peacefully, quietly without causing any troubles, they will be taught a lesson, and along with that person, his/her family will be made to suffer emotionally. Kothar is not only shrewd and insecure, but egoistic and amply free for vindictive revenge.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#194

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:57 pm

qutub_mamajiwala wrote:actually and generally put, there are 49 percent abdes and 51 percent not happy with the system.
if this 51 percent individually start opposing or stop paying money, kothar will go into dust.
it is this very silent 51 percent who is making kothar more powerful.
I believe that the percentage unhappy with the 'system' is much larger than 51.

The split is between Bohras and anti-Kothar Bohras among the vast majority of Bohras who do not participate on this forum.

It is these anti-Kothar Bohras who would be most amenable to Reformist agenda. They need a leader who can inspire action.

The leader could emerge from Bohra participants on this site. He would unlikely be from among anti-Bohras. The latter could have AZ or GM as leader. They would benefit with assistance from the Reformist Humsafar who could bring the lessons of Udaipur to the table. These 3 clearly have the motivation to bring changes to the community. They would need to transform themselves into anti-Kothar Bohras rather than anti-Kothar anti-Bohras.

While they may not be able to influence Bohras at large, they could influence the direction of discussions here and make it more attractive for anti-Kothar Bohras to come to this site and help spread the Reformist agenda.

The leader cannot obviously remain anonymous for long. Unless of course he wants to emulate the Imam and remain hidden. Even then he will need emissaries. That role is open to Bohras and anti-Bohras on this forum. Let us see if someone with courage takes up the challenge.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#195

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:00 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
The split is between Bohras and anti-Kothar Bohras among the vast majority of Bohras who do not participate on this forum.

It is these anti-Kothar Bohras who would be most amenable to Reformist agenda. They need a leader who can inspire action.

The leader could emerge from Bohra participants on this site. He would unlikely be from among anti-Bohras. They would need to transform themselves into anti-Kothar Bohras rather than anti-Kothar anti-Bohras.

While they may not be able to influence Bohras at large, they could influence the direction of discussions here and make it more attractive for anti-Kothar Bohras to come to this site and help spread the Reformist agenda.

The leader cannot obviously remain anonymous for long. Unless of course he wants to emulate the Imam and remain hidden. Even then he will need emissaries. That role is open to Bohras and anti-Bohras on this forum.
fayyaz,

seriously, i need to know if it is the food you eat or some hypnotic/hallucinatory/psychotropic susbtances that you are in the habit of imbibing that makes you come up with such mind-numbing and convoluted theories. i would like to know so that i can reach that same state of elevated consciousness, serendipity and blissful calm that you have achieved.


as for electing/selecting a leader, have you considered yourself? an atheist with a passion for espousing the freedom of haramkhors to propagate their kufr, exploitation and tyranny?
[/color]

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#196

Unread post by SBM » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:47 pm

Br AZ
Fayyaz is already a leader of Wolfpak known as Kothari Goons. Did you notice he has no opinion about SMS riding A/C horses while Mehfuza ben dies on the Jamatkhana ootla.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#197

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:44 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote: fayyaz,

as for electing/selecting a leader, have you considered yourself? an atheist with a passion for espousing the freedom of haramkhors to propagate their kufr, exploitation and tyranny?
No. I am not proposing/selecting a leader but suggesting that you, GM and Humsafar could offer yourselves as leaders. Me, I do not have the leadership qualities which the three of you display on this forum incontrovertibly.

I will certainly not take away the freedom of
haramkhors to propagate their kufr, exploitation and tyranny.

I would let them and those that they attract to their cause alone within a closed cult as long as they respect the law. You have the freedom to dissuade them from forming and joining the cult.

However, if they are found to advocate violent overthrow of an elected Government of free peoples or advocate violence against former cult members and others, then the full force of law should be brought to bear upon them.

I have made the above clear on many occasions. I will continue to clarify it till you get that simple message or until I get tired of repeating the message.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#198

Unread post by SBM » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:51 am

Fayyaz
haramkhors to propagate their kufr, exploitation and tyranny.


I would let them and those that they attract to their cause alone within a closed cult as long as they respect the law. You have the freedom to dissuade them from forming and joining the cult.
SO you have no problem of corruption in Dawat and you will defend the rights of Kothari Goons to loot the community.
You do not feel that it is your duty to warn the community people while exposing the corrupt practices.
That is what we call a COWARD or a Co-Conspirator in the crimes.

DisillusionedDB
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:20 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#199

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:27 am

SBM wrote: SO you have no problem of corruption in Dawat and you will defend the rights of Kothari Goons to loot the community.
You do not feel that it is your duty to warn the community people while exposing the corrupt practices.
That is what we call a COWARD or a Co-Conspirator in the crimes.
Correct SBM, Fayyaz is a rights-defender.
To sum it up in brief :- He defends the rights of the oppressor to oppress AND he also defends the right of the oppressed to either remain oppressed or fight the oppressor.
And Fayyaz will fight for and on both sides :lol:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#200

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:11 am

I do not defend the right of anyone to loot the community. If you feel that what they are doing is illegal, then in this country you have a recourse to bring legal action against them. Let me elaborate.

Let me again emphasize. I do not defend
haramkhors or kufr, exploitation and tyranny.

As long as they practice their activities within the bounds of the Law, I would let them alone.

Let me handle this issue under 3 different titles, SMS & Kothar, Adam, and the intellectually-challenged SBM and his friend, equally intellectually-challenged DisillusionedDB.

1. SMS & Kothar.

If you feel that they are
haramkhors propagating their kufr, exploitation and tyranny,

then you can do one of two things.

a. Prove that they are acting illegally. Take them to court.

b. Get your congressman to enact a bill to be presented to the House of Representatives to declare their organization illegal and their members to have their rights restricted under the Constitution. Personally, I would not support you nor would any American as what you propose is clearly Un-American. I would advise you to migrate to Pakistan or Wahhabiland where similar actions are taken against Ahmadiyyahs and the Shia.

2. Adam. He is an example of the follower of SMS and represents a significant portion, even a majority of the community. They clearly do not feel they are 'kafirs, or being exploited or living under tyranny'. It is a matter of perception for them and you. I say that Adam has a right to follow SMS if he wants to. Outsiders could write, like you do on this forum, and expose their stupidity for belonging to such cult. That is where you should leave it. If you use violence against them or harass them, then expect full force of Law to operate against you.

3. SBM and his equally intellectual anti-Bohra friends. These are hypocrites. They feel that by belonging to the community they are being 'kafirs, being exploited and are living under tyranny'. They know they have the right to leave the community but they will not do it. They want to remain there and bitch about their condition on an ineffective forum like this. What do you call people like that? Dumb and Stupid.

I made the point that opposition to SMS and Kothar will need a Leader. We have one in SKQ. He is putting up a good fight and he has some following. He is able to carry his followers along. But clearly, anti-Bohras do not want him as the Leader as he represents more of the same. They need someone like AZ, GM or Humsafar.

Some anti-Bohras on this forum say they are 'culturally' Bohras and would wish to remain that way without the baggage of wajebaat, maatam, salaam, bowing down and praying tawassul for the Dais etc. Fine. Why can't they do it on their own without wanting to be part of the community that wants to do all those things.

What is 'cultural' about Bohras without their religion that anti-Bohras can carry on doing?

Cuisine? You can most assuredly carry on doing it in your own homes. Hell, you can learn to cook almost any cuisine in the world without adopting a different religion. You can learn to cook Chinese, Italian, French, Caribbean and so on.

Dress? Who will stop you from wearing STD or Rida.

Lisan-e-Dawat? Is anyone taking away your right to speak that if you left the cult? No.

What else can't you do without being in the cult. Now think about it and be and let be.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#201

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:58 am

fayyaaz wrote:... as long as they respect the law....
seriously? are you that immature and flippant by design or just plain stupid? yeda banke pedha khane ka?

have you read the archives on this forum in detail? the scathing reports of the 2 different commissions of supreme court ex-judges appointed by the indian govt to investigate the atrocities, tyranny and systemic intimidation by the kothar and the bohra dai against his opponents? look them up under justice nathwani and justice tarkunde/tewatia reports which clearly shows the monstrous extra-judicial and illegal powers expropriated by the dai's and his hired lackeys. impartial reports which were brutally honest and wide ranging in their in-depth investigations. reports which lie gathering dust because of the haramkhor daawat's money power.

read also the comprehensive case histories of the burhanpur hakimiya high school case and the chandabhai galla case, both cases where the dai's were proven to have blatantly violated the law, threatened witnesses and even brutally and mercilessly assaulted them later.

you would still want to defend the rights of such haramkhors from propagating their murderous cult, achieved with the force of black money and political connections? thugs who dig out the corpses of their dushmano and throw them naked and desecrated on the streets in full public view?

and then you have the bloody impudence and infernal gall to say that people should proceed against such tyrants in a court of law? are you that naive or just plain retarded??

have you even bothered to read how the high and mighty kothar has harassed and vilified a simple bohra lady zehraben cyclewala, making her life a living hell? the story is right here on the forum. do you still have the moral right to allow free speech for such goondas and their stupid jaahil followers?

this is my last post to you on this subject. if you continue to defend the rights of such low-lifes than i have only one TERM for you, ACCESSORY IN CRIME.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#202

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:12 pm

And I have one question for you. If the Indian Judicial System has condemned the Dais, the Kothar and all that they represent, why are they still thriving? Even the Prime Minister of India and the Dai mutually felicitate one another.

Maybe you should target the Indian Judicial System. Or perhaps the Indian Judiciary thinks that people have a right to be exploited if they want to remain stupid. They will perhaps not legislate against stupidity. In this, American and Indian Judiciaries are alike.

Look, there are thieves, murderers, exploiters, cults etc in the United States. Many are caught, convicted and punished by the Courts. Cults like Scientology escape such punishment. Why? Think on these things.

Whether you comment on my posts on this subject or not, I will continue to express my views until I am silenced or decide myself to shut up.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#203

Unread post by SBM » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:23 pm

Cults like Scientology escape such punishment. Why? Think on these things.
Because they have brain dead Abdes (followers) and they know how to contribute to Public officials Just like kothari Goons
Just surprised that an SMART person like you could not understand that connection so easily..

Biradar
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#204

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:30 pm

My friend fayyaaz: I agree with a lot of the things you say, however, I believe you are making a significant logical flaw here. You seemed obsessed about "legality" about the behavior of the Kothar and their opponents. So, yes, legally, what Kothar does is fine, in the sense that judicial systems in secular countries can not tell you not to follow a certain belief system simply because it appears stupid to a subset of people. So, as long as Kothar is not using illegal means (as defined by secular law in a country) to gain donations and respect of followers, the state will not and should not interfere.

However, what we are discussing is not a narrow legal issue. I realize that as an atheist, at least going from the views you express on this board, you have no standard for ethical judgment, but only look to secular law to fill in a gap which religions fill among a large bulk of the population. Hence, you are unable to distinguish between two sets of actions if they both legal. Thus, you have adopted a secular law (perhaps the US version) to take the place of religion. For you, this law is "sacred", just like religious law is sacred for believers.

Most people here, whatever spectrum they come from are not arguing about the secular legality of some actions, but the ethics, as they understand based on their interpretation of Islam. You seem to conflate the two, and hence are in a ethical paralysis.

Incidentally, you mis-classify Adam when you say he is "typical" or what majority people feel. In fact, majority people probably stick with status-quo because they do not want to loose the social relations they have developed in the community. Hence, majority of people will follow DMMS as otherwise they won't get invited to jamaans. Adam has some knowledge of Islam, which is missing in about 95% of bohras, so he can't be a typical example of all bohras.

Overall, I feel you contribute positively to this forum, so don't "shut up", just keep going, but please try and understand that legality is not the be-all and end-all of everything in a believers life.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#205

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:49 pm

Fayyaz,

Just a simple and hypothetical question : God forbid but if kothar digs up your mother's grave and throws the naked corpse on the pavement then what would you do ? Take recourse to "legal" action and allow the corrupt government machinery not to take any action against the powerful kothar which has all the money and muscle power at its disposal and which successfully buries the matter in government files ?

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#206

Unread post by SBM » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:01 pm

Fayyaz
They want to remain there and bitch about their condition on an ineffective forum like this. What do you call people like that? Dumb and Stupid
So by staying on this ineffective forum you proved yourself to be DUMB and STUPID too

Ozdundee
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#207

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:05 am

Fayaz I knew you will one day say something that will make our acquaintance

You said as long as they operate within law!

FGM: I don't know where you are from but in Africa , Europe , USA and Australia it is illegal , yet you guys practise it, your SMB in Muharram relay mentioned girls to perform Khafs

You mentioned this ineffective site ..why are kothar worried of posting their propaganda ..because they end up here. Really this site is ineffective in curbing their pomp , we have made their trumpets more difficult.

Talk about Canadian senate inquiry, Saudi raids, Malaysia raids, deportation from Tanzania, inquiries in india ..how would they all be possible if they were not breaching the laws.

It is the reformists who are fighting within legal limits and demanding their freedom within constitutional obligations.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#208

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:39 am

Biradar wrote: However, what we are discussing is not a narrow legal issue. I realize that as an atheist, at least going from the views you express on this board, you have no standard for ethical judgment, but only look to secular law to fill in a gap which religions fill among a large bulk of the population. Hence, you are unable to distinguish between two sets of actions if they both legal. Thus, you have adopted a secular law (perhaps the US version) to take the place of religion. For you, this law is "sacred", just like religious law is sacred for believers.
Thank you Biradar for raising an interesting issue. I will have more to say in response later. It would not be correct to say that I do not have a standard for 'ethical judgment' except what is considered legal or illegal. There are a number of issues that I consider unethical and yet are not illegal. This ethical/non-ethical judgment comes from my education, upbringing and the knowledge of history and philosophy, both religious and secular. Humanist tradition appeals to me a lot but I cannot point out a Scripture or a specific document which I take to be the sole basis of my legal, moral or ethical authority.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#209

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:02 am

It looks like this guy is a liar, I mean a lawyer, representing kothar and advising it on how to screw the bohras and still remain within the law. This can be easily done for those not worried about the punishment in the hereafter. For example, lying in the US is not a crime unless to a federal officer. So the kothari goons lie all day to the bohras. Having multiple sexual partners is also not illegal, so the kothar [DELETED] in the back all day. So, for these crimes of the kothar there is no recourse in the law. This forum is the perfect court to expose these legal crimes of the kothar. Ignore the kothari liar, I mean kothari lawyer, and continue the good fight. If he manages to shut even one of us up, the kothar criminals will have succeeded.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum

#210

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:19 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:Fayyaz,

Just a simple and hypothetical question : God forbid but if kothar digs up your mother's grave and throws the naked corpse on the pavement then what would you do ? Take recourse to "legal" action and allow the corrupt government machinery not to take any action against the powerful kothar which has all the money and muscle power at its disposal and which successfully buries the matter in government files ?
Trying to rouse the faithful against me, eh GM?

Of course there are laws against disturbing the sanctity of graves. You have two problems.

1. Lack of legal basis on which to prosecute the 'identified' criminals who perpetrate such acts. Then you will need to be a 'Leader' to get legislation on the statute books of your country.

2. If such a legislation exists, then you have to deal with unwillingness or ineffectiveness of the Law Enforcement Agencies to pursue 'identified' or 'unidentified' criminals.

There are thousands of instances where clearly criminals go scot-free because they are not identified and even if identified, legal process against them is thwarted by abstruse technical legality. Earlier this month, I walked along the Mission district in San Francisco joining the parade to mark 'Dia de los Muertos'. One young person being commemorated was a young man murdered in the Mission District. His murderers are still not identified or apprehended. This was clearly an instance of criminals evading the Law, not that there is something wrong either with the Judiciary or Law Enforcement. They did their best.

You are clearly implicating the Dai and Kothar against desecrating a grave that happened sometime ago. If you believe that to do this is an article of faith of modern Bohras and that they would use it, you are going to have to show leadership and remain vigilant and bring to bear full the force of Law against perpetrators of such dastardly acts.

You are not going to be able to criminalize religion for what is in the Scripture. Quran advocates killing of apostates and cutting off of hands of thieves. Both are illegal in the United States. Islam cannot be criminalized for what is in the Scripture until the United States turns itself into a nasty Theocracy. Similarly, some sects approve 'honor killing'. The sect cannot be criminalized but any identified act of 'honor killing' will face the full force of law.

Similarly, FGM is widely practiced by Bohras in the United States. Bohra women are in the forefront of carrying on this abuse. Many Bohras know the identity of 'nurses' who carry out this act and yet hardly anyone reports them to the Authorities. Having FGM as a 'statute' in religious books is not enough to criminalize the community that holds them sacred. The act has to be identified and prosecuted. If this site is effective, then why is this practice not stopped among Bohras in the United States? This is in response to Ozdundee.

Another issue raised by Ozdundee about the effectiveness of this site is that he gives credit to this site for getting Sayedna banned from Saudi Arabia, deportation of Sayedna from Tanzania and some criminal Mullas or Sheikhs being caught performing illegal activities. I am not sure that this site had anything to do with those incidents but clearly Law operated in those cases.

If powerful forces of Religion and Government conspire to exploit and tyrannize people then they will eventually have a revolution in their hands. However among Bohras, a vast majority, happy or unhappy with their lot, do not feel they need to anything about their religious situation. That is a pity but true.