How is this forum significant?

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Critical_Thinker
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:22 pm

How is this forum significant?

#1

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:49 pm

Its funny how a casual passing comment has created such a storm.

I mentioned that internet forums will never change the world.
Especially if they have hardly any active members like we do here.
Therefore in my opinion, this forum is insignificant to the big scheme of things.
The truth is that real change will only happen if people take real action in the real world.
Just like we did in udaipur.

This notion seems to infuriate many people here which is fascinating to say the least.

If people do genuinely believe this forum is so very significant, please explain why.
Please offer some concrete evidence to prove this claim.
Please show how the forum has made a major impact.

If possible, please also explain why there are hardly any people here, if as you say, the place is so important.

If I see enough evidence, then I will gladly change my opinion.
If there is no evidence, then certain non-progressive members here should admit they are wrong.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:56 pm

I mentioned that internet forums will never change the world.
Internet itself has changed the world. Internet forums are a part of what caused that change. Even with big words, a statement can really be stupid as you have displayed so admirably.

No one said that this forum is significant enough to change the world. It is simply significant enough for people to come and post over here. And that is all that a forum needs to achieve. The fact that you come and spend your time over here in itself makes it significant. A forum would be insignificant if no one were on it. in fact with every new participant, the significance of this forum increases even if only by a tiny fraction. Hence your participation over here has helped this forum become a little bit more significant, even though the average IQ of the forum has probably dropped by you being here!!

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#3

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:30 pm

Friend Critical_Thinker,

Before one can determine the significance of something, we must define what one means by significance. For example, Facebook being used by half the population of the planet may be insignificant to me personally, if I do not actually use it. It may be insignificant even if I use it, if I consider it to be a place to do "chit-chat". Now, someone else may consider it highly significant, as it allows them to connect with people who they would not otherwise. Now, to you, this may still be insignificant, as even after connecting, one only ends up doing "chit-chat" or timepass. So, what is significant to one person, may not be to another.

Hence, as obviously you think you have something very significant to contribute, i.e. to prove the insignificance of this forum, you should outline precisely what you consider significant, and how you would measure significance of something. After all, before we can measure something, we need a measuring tape. Please enlighten us poor insignificant fools on the standards a wise person like you uses.

Now, you mentioned about Udapur jamaat having done something significant. Actually, I want to counter that, for the sake of argument. Please tell me what Udaipur jamaat (UJ for short) has achieved which is significant? How does it effect my life, or the life of an average Bohra. In fact, 99% of Bohras don't give a damn about UJ and consider it to be a terrible blight on the community. How has UJ changed the world? Lets be realistic. What fraction of Bohras belong to that jamaat? What has it done to change the world? Has 99.999999% of humanity even heard of UJ? So, I submit that UJ is a totally insignificant thing, a place to do chit-chat and timepass. As an UJ member (as you claim to be) you are just a terrible insignificant person, wasting your time in it, without doing anything of significance. So sad.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#4

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:35 pm

anajmi wrote:....even though the average IQ of the forum has probably dropped by you being here!!
:mrgreen: :P :lol:

q: ct must be in the habit of ordering the worst dish from the crappiest restaurant. why??
a: because that cockroach infested restt is so insignificant and irrelevant on the restt scene that no one ever goes there.

q: why does ct go and see the worst movie in the dirtiest theatre in town?
a: because that theatre is derelict, haunted and stinking, totally insignificant, useless and irrelevant.

q. why does ct visit this site to pass her time and indulge in chit chat?
a; because this site is so utterly insignificant, useless and irrelevant.

q. what does ct hope to accomplish by doing such stupid things?
a: prove it to herself and the world that she is stupid, irrelevant and insignificant.

q. what does this disturbing behaviour signify?
a: it displays psychopathic behaviour, which if left unchecked, could lead to self-destructive acts like slashing of the wrists, ligatures, ingestions of poisons and acid, ultimately resulting in suicide.



fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#5

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:49 pm

A measure of this site's significance is two-fold:

1. Primarily, it allows Bohras a freedom to express their views about their community without someone watching over their back.

2. Secondarily, it has the potential to blaze the trail of Reform.

Udaipur Jamaat is significant because it has shown the way how Bohras could bring Reform without having to ditch the Dai as UJ has done.

Point 1 has been achieved admirably. Downside is that point 2 can only be a faint hope because the forum is the mainstay of anti-Bohras who are not interested in Reform. They just want to bitch. Free for all participation specially by Wahhabi ex-Bohra, a major contributor, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc by this Wahhabi ex-Bohra. He derails most threads and normally has the last word on any thread, because eventually most participants tire of him except some die-hard followers of his. Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7.

If you need a metric, then it will be the level of local democracy which will enable Jamaat committees to set the dues and be accountable for expenditure.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:05 pm

fayyaaz has 213 posts in 35 days which is an average of over 6 posts per day. anajmi has an average of 2.43 posts per day. Go figure!!
Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7.
Sorry. reverse psychology doesn't work on a highly developed brain.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#7

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:22 pm

fayyaaz wrote:, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc
fayyaz,

are you just plain stupid or acting like one? what do you call doing sajdas to the dai, calling him haqiqi kaaba, naatiqe quran, ilah ul ardh, mojiza na saheb, hunting wild animals for pleasure, calling his mongrels shezaadas and zaadis? is it islamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship or just fine and dandy from the islamic point of view?

if the money and power hungry dai and his cohorts are themselves playing into the hands of non-bohra muslims with their unislamic behaviour, then why blame just one specific person for exposing these acts of kufr, tyranny and exploitation?

and why does it bother you whether anyone points it out? as an avowed atheist, religions hold no significance for you because they all talk of a god or gods. why do you want to reform a cult which chooses to worship their dai as their god on earth? let them enjoy their kufr, let those opposing them indulge in calling them kafirs and munafekeens. they are all ok as per the laws of united states.

all you need to do is to provide both sides their freedoms without taking sides. your tendency to allow cult members to practise their kufr whilst objecting to those opposed to it (whether they are bohras or non-bohras), is defeating your own defense of free speech.


fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#8

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:35 pm

AZ,

Cult members have the freedom to practice their religion. I do not object to Yazid-loving, Wahhabi ex-Bohra pointing out those things, He is not relevant. He is counter-productive for Bohras. He serves your purpose but that too is irrelevant in the wider scheme of Reform.

Cult members, some on this forum, have expressed the wish for Reform. They will not achieve their goal if they go in with all guns blazing with a Yazid-loving Wahhabi leading the charge. Anti-Kothar Bohras, and I do not include you among them as you are an anti-Bohra or perhaps an ex-Bohra, will need to make this forum significant for a far larger number of Bohras than currently participate here.

Most Bohras on this forum are put off by you but you are a hero for the majority here who are anti-Bohras.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:43 pm

Cult members, some on this forum, have expressed the wish for Reform. They will not achieve their goal if they go in with all guns blazing with a Yazid-loving Wahhabi leading the charge
Whoever those cult members are, they are a bunch of cowards and nincompoops. Instead of whining about a wahhabi yazid lover taking charge, maybe they should try and take charge themselves. Are they waiting for Santa to deliver reform for them? Don't they know that they will have to do the work. And they need to go in with guns blazing. And hypocrites like you aren't going to aid them. And reform isn't going to be delivered on a silver platter to these undeserving cowards on www.dawoodi-bohras.com. This will have to be taken in Saifee Mahal.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#10

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:01 pm

fayyaaz wrote:... with a Yazid-loving Wahhabi leading the charge.
then what do you suggest? a sworn atheist leading the charge while doing purjosh maatam?

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#11

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:11 pm

fayyaaz wrote:A measure of this site's significance is two-fold:

Udaipur Jamaat is significant because it has shown the way how Bohras could bring Reform without having to ditch the Dai as UJ has done.
Sorry. I claim UJ is only a place to do chit-chat and timepass. Its members have a inflated sense of importance. It is "insignificant to the big scheme of things". -- Critical_Thinker

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#12

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:00 am

fayyaaz wrote:Downside is that point 2 can only be a faint hope because the forum is the mainstay of anti-Bohras who are not interested in Reform. They just want to bitch. Free for all participation specially by Wahhabi ex-Bohra, a major contributor, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc by this Wahhabi ex-Bohra. He derails most threads and normally has the last word on any thread, because eventually most participants tire of him except some die-hard followers of his. Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7..
Please enlist your suggestions for reforms for the bohra community in live world out there !

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#13

Unread post by SBM » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:12 am

humanbeing wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Downside is that point 2 can only be a faint hope because the forum is the mainstay of anti-Bohras who are not interested in Reform. They just want to bitch. Free for all participation specially by Wahhabi ex-Bohra, a major contributor, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc by this Wahhabi ex-Bohra. He derails most threads and normally has the last word on any thread, because eventually most participants tire of him except some die-hard followers of his. Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7..
Please enlist your suggestions for reforms for the bohra community in live world out there !
That is the question we asked Resident Profiler but he has no answer except categorizing people
Soon he will have a new category for Humanbeing too

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#14

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:05 am

humanbeing wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Downside is that point 2 can only be a faint hope because the forum is the mainstay of anti-Bohras who are not interested in Reform. They just want to bitch. Free for all participation specially by Wahhabi ex-Bohra, a major contributor, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc by this Wahhabi ex-Bohra. He derails most threads and normally has the last word on any thread, because eventually most participants tire of him except some die-hard followers of his. Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7..
Please enlist your suggestions for reforms for the bohra community in live world out there !
Seriously? I said that in the context of 'significance' of this forum. Have you identified what Reforms you do want without destroying the fundamental character of the community? Let us do that first. I will help you. Once we have identified the goals then, we will develop a strategy for achieving those reforms in the wider Bohra world.

As far as this forum is concerned, it will have to become more significant for Bohras. Will ex-Bohra and anti-Bohras let you do that though? No.

Ex-Bohra wants total destruction of the community. Anti-Bohras, major contributors to this forum, constantly work to aid the ex-Bohra. Examples are their continued efforts to punish SMS and SKQ by wanting Muslim Governments to place restrictions against them and their followers. Anti-Bohra leaders like AZ support ex-Wahhabi in being takfiri against Bohras. They drown voices of a minority of Bohras on this forum. Consider the reaction of AZ, SBM and anajmi against Critical Thinker as an example. All that wipes out this forum's significance.

In a hostile atmosphere against Bohras in Pakistan and Wahhabilands, anti-Bohras feed venom of extremists. In this case, it becomes a matter for survival for Bohras, first and foremost. Luckily, Pakistan and Wahhabilands are countries with corrupt leaders with no rule of law as we understand it in the West. And Kothar is flush with money and bribing the corrupt ensures survival. Another unfortunate aspect of this survival is to make friends with the so-called enemies of Islam, mainly the United States. They help survival of tyrannies in Muslim lands and ensures the ease with which Bohras can bribe the corrupt leaders of those tyrannies.

You may ask why do I not argue against shirk, kufr, sajda to humans etc. My reply is that if they believe they are doing the right thing they should be left alone to practice their beliefs. Personally I do not care for such practices. They are just opinions. Every one is indoctrinated. There is no evidence for God, angels etc which Muslims believe in. They are not 'right'. They have their beliefs. Christians believe Jesus is Son of God. That is anti-Islamic. That is why Egyptian extremists, Nigerian Boko Haram and Somali al-Shabaab kill Christians as well as 'apostate' Muslims for holding different beliefs. That is the road along which the ex-Bohra and anti-Bohras are travelling.

Kothar is not threatening United States or free and Western liberal democracies. They have freedom of religion and religion plays virtually bo part in Governance. Muslims do not want that and eventually they will threaten liberalism and democracy. When time come, Bohras should stand for freedom and take up arms against Muslim extremists.

Anti-Bohras like SBM are the worst form hypocrites. They feed Kothar by paying up dues and use this forum to vent their frustration against them.

So, is this forum going to be significant for Reform?
Last edited by fayyaaz on Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#15

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:07 pm

Fayyaz bhai
You did not offer anything concrete to reform all I can read is anti bohra, anti kothari bohra ex bohra and so on
I do not see any message or ideas in your post except repeating the same category again and again. can you make it simple for stupid people like me to understand how you are going to reform the community

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#16

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:17 pm

abde53 wrote:Fayyaz bhai
You did not offer anything concrete to reform all I can read is anti bohra, anti kothari bohra ex bohra and so on
I do not see any message or ideas in your post except repeating the same category again and again. can you make it simple for stupid people like me to understand how you are going to reform the community
All in good time, my friend. Have patience. Innallaha ma'a as-saabireen. :)

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#17

Unread post by SBM » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:30 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
abde53 wrote:Fayyaz bhai
You did not offer anything concrete to reform all I can read is anti bohra, anti kothari bohra ex bohra and so on
I do not see any message or ideas in your post except repeating the same category again and again. can you make it simple for stupid people like me to understand how you are going to reform the community
All in good time, my friend. Have patience. Innallaha ma'a as-saabireen. :)
And that is what exactly SMB told his followers Have patience and in good time I will do nuss and see what happened Do not wait too long and
it is funny to read Inshallaha from an Atheist :mrgreen: (Allaha willing some one who does not believe in Allaha)

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#18

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:40 pm

SBM wrote:
it is funny to read Inshallaha from an Atheist :mrgreen: (Allaha willing some one who does not believe in Allaha)[/b]
Funny eh? It was Innallaha not Inshallaha. you dimwit!

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#19

Unread post by SBM » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:47 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
SBM wrote:
it is funny to read Inshallaha from an Atheist :mrgreen: (Allaha willing some one who does not believe in Allaha)[/b]
Funny eh? It was Innallaha not Inshallaha. you dimwit!
But you did invoke Allaha regardless

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#20

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:13 pm

I do not want to see you banned. But if you did get banned, do not expect me to shed any tear.

Your presence on this forum is counter-productive to any progress of discussions of Reform within the Bohra community.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#21

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:09 pm

fayyaaz is making some very important points. First, I have pointed out before that those who ask for Saudis or other so-called Muslim leaders to intervene in Bohra affairs are the worst traitors, the most blighted fifth-columnists and deserve to burn in hell. S. Qutbuddin Shaeed was martyred due to the treachery of just such traitors. The community suffered greatly at the hands of the Mughals and many lost their lives, their properties and their means of living. Do we want this to happen to common, ordinary Bohras, most of who are hard-working and simple folk? Even if one hates the da'i and everything Bohras stands for, common humanity should prevent us from becoming traitors.

I can see that anti-Bohras are happy to see Bohras suffer. They have made it clear numerous times on this forum. Of course, they may just be a bit intellectually challenged and naive, and unable to understand what they are really rooting for. However, those who know better should be ashamed of themselves, specially when they support the extreme rhetoric of the mad-mullah Sunni types on this board. They deserve nothing but scorn and derision.

I also agree with fayyaaz about his point on beliefs which seem peculiar to the Bohras. Lets not forget that Bohras follow Islam. Now, some vocal terrorist types have subverted the egalitarian message of the Prophet and the Quran and use "Islam" to satisfy their lust for power, blood, loot and misogyny. These people do not follow Islam, but a depraved, bloodthirsty ideology which is mainly driven by Saudi/Salafi money and ideology. The fact that some former Bohras support such terrorists is very strange to me.

At present, the reform movement seems to me to be stuck. They are unable to follow either DMMS or S. Qutbuddin. Sadly, this means that very soon they will be their own sect, with no clear direction on which da'i they follow. Now, following a da'i does not mean unconditionally agreeing with what he does. However, the concept of continued divine guidance is a central part of Islamic and Shia belief. Without such, one can be a cultural bohra, wear their clothes, eat their food, but one will eventually be unable to call oneself Bohra.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#22

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:04 pm

fayyaaz wrote: 1. .... if they believe they are doing the right thing they should be left alone to practice their beliefs.

2. When time come, Bohras should stand for freedom and take up arms against Muslim extremists.

3. Anti-Bohras like SBM are the worst form hypocrites. They feed Kothar by paying up dues and use this forum to vent their frustration against them.
fayyaz,

all you do is lecture and pontificate without any concrete plan of action or what YOU are doing to contribute your little bit. now dont ask me what i have done or doing. you dont know me nor my background.

now to address the points above.
1. on the one hand you propagate a laissez faire attitude. live and let live, let the bohras indulge in shirk, kufr and idol worship. on the other hand we too have a right to object to what is going on. the only problem you have is when an ex-bohra objects to it. then you call him derogatory names like yazid lover, anti-bohra, bohra hater, shia hater etc and if any of us object to the same things, then we are supporters of wahabism?? tails you win, heads i lose? even i give a damn what bohras do inside their markaz/masjid and even publicly for that matter. they should know that they will bear the consequences for their recklessness borne out of arrogance and money power. my only objection is that do not hoodwink other muslims and non-muslims into believing that bohras are the purest muslims, the greatest, and their dai is a veritable angel and an ambassador of peace when he unleashes a goonda force on those who oppose him.
2. now you advocate bohras taking up arms against extremists? what happened to your 'do whatever you want as long as its within the law' schtik? so bohras should get as violent and jaahil as the other jaahils, as if the bohras are not jaahil already? its also another matter whether bohras have the gumption to take a warlike stance. the only belligerence they display is whilst safely doing purjosh maatam inside their kufrkhanas or internally in the cult against the perceived dai's dushmans.
3. i know bhai sbm very well. he does not pay a single penny to the jamaat, but inspite of that they have provided him an ejamaat card because inspite of his well-known disgust at their extortionary and tyrannical practices, he still stands tall and strong to help them during a crisis. whether its financial help for dealing with a leaking roof, to replace the carpets, or liaise with the govt, he can be counted on. far from deriding him and displaying your abysmal ignorance about people or subjects, you should be acknowledging him for not letting his distaste of the abde jamaat's kufr and injustices against the average momin cloud his judgement. bhai sbm is a person who can be depended on when in need, whether its this forum or any bohra in trouble anywhere worldwide. he donates generously whilst himself leading a very simple and undemanding life. i can say much more, but its no use as you have amply demonstrated that inspite of all your highbrow neutral detached stance, you are a most prejudiced, judgemental and arrogant person with no real contributions to this forum or to the cause of reform.

as for the argument that those who side with known dushmans of shia/bohras and thus deliberately betraying them etc are the biggest traitors and back-stabbers, then pray what recourse do they have? take up arms against the dai and his henchmen, as you propose bohras do against their enemies? the kothar is a mighty entity with huge money, political and goonda power at its disposal, while on the other hand you have a puny little, ill-resourced group fighting for principles. in their desperation it would be but natural and excusable for them to turn to a power which is bigger than the dastardly kothar. inspite of all the anger, resentment and frustration, none of the reformists living in the gulf and middle-east have actually fingered the dai and his establishment. there are many who are well-connected there with the govt and the ruling families. it is their decency that they have not resorted to using the ultimate weapon against the dai. i too have high level connections there and i could activate a series of events that would lead to a complete ban on the dai, his family, and eventually the bohra community. but considering the repurcussions on the poor, simple bohras carving out an existence there at great toil and hardship, we desist. bhai hussain_ksa is well-placed to give the dai a taste of his own medicine - baraat - from saudi authorities and thus from all agcc countries. but he too keeps his peace and on the contrary helps any bohra, abde or otherwise who needs help in saudi arabia.

fayyaz, all that you are good for is categorisation. that is your speciality, pray continue classifying and sub-classifying all the people you come across, but just talking about reform and actually implementing a workable plan with insignificant resources is something you should desist from. its way out of your immature league. like rajiv gandhi, you too are mocked for '' hame yeh karna chhahiye, aisa hona chhaihiye, hum waisa karenge, yeh karo, woh karo etc"
khud se hota kuch nahi, bas dusre ko bhashan dete raho. whats the difference between you then and the useless, humbug godmen of india?

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#23

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:00 pm

To the ones who say that this forum is insignificant (but still continue to participate in it like hypocrites), can they show any other forum which is MORE significant and where Bohras can express their views so openly and unabashedly ? The only other forums concerning Bohras are zeninfosys, malumat and mumenin.org and the less said about them the better.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#24

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:45 pm

GM,

You should read my first post on this thread. It is the 5th one from top. In it I wrote about how freedom for Bohras to to express their opinions has been admirably achieved. However, I wrote that the significance of the forum is diminished by the type of participants mainly ex-Bohra and anti-Bohras. I also proposed a metric for measure of its significance.

AZ,

Shirk, Kufr, Idol-worship are matters of opinion. Even if Bohras indulge in all that from your point of view, why should they be prevented to do so in a free society? I have repeatedly pointed out that in the United States and India freedom of religion is respected and guaranteed under law. I agree they are a cult and display some of cult's worst characteristics like extortion and slavery to leaders. They are not imposing their views on anyone. My view is that those who are born into the cult and cannot stand it have the freedom to leave. Let the Reform come from within. Wahhabis should not interfere like they do against Ahmadiyyas in Pakistan.

I asked you and others why anajmi was called Yazid-lover. You refused to reply but anajmi himself responded and agreed that he was a Yazid-lover. I think that it is important to highlight that fact as much as possible on this forum if he chooses to use the forum for his intended purpose of destroying the fundamental basis of this community.

I am very happy with the secular nature of the United States Government and similar liberal governments elsewhere in the world. It allows freedom of worship for all, monotheists, idol-worshipers, animists, atheists etc. I would like to see that government defended against threats of Extremist Theocracies whether they are Christian, Wahhabi, or Iranian. I suggested that Bohras take up arms against extremists if they came close to destroying these democracies.

Unlike you, I do not know SBM personally nor anyone else participating on this forum. I deduce their 'personalities' from their postings on this forum. They may be the greatest people in reality. I am not concerned with that. I am responding to their thoughts as they themselves present them here.

My categories are useful because they identify starkly the stand that various participants take on this forum. The fact that there is so much opposition to it from people like yourself points ironically to its effectiveness. Now we know who is who and where in the scheme of things Bohra. My categories accurately describe each participant and they are broad enough to cover everyone.

Take you as an example. You are clearly not a non-Bohra because you were born to Bohra parents. You are either an ex-Bohra because you no longer carry an e-Jamaat card out of personal preference or if you do carry one, you are clearly an anti-Bohra. If, like SBM, you got the card without paying your dues, then you are an exception. You are not a follower of SMS or SKQ. That means you are not a Bohra in my definition. And you do not belong to any Reformist/Progressive Jamaat. You are therefore not a Progressive. That exhausts my five categories. Very useful.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#25

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:42 pm

Caustic wit from AZ against me has convinced me that this thread is important. It helps identify who and who is not contributing to make this forum significant. I think it should stay where it is. Not that I do not enjoy the satisfaction of being opposed by stalwarts, but clearly, they would not respond if what is being said here is not important to them. :wink:

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#26

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:51 pm

fayyaaz wrote:...It helps identify who and who is not contributing to make this forum significant. :
99.999% of respondents here have identified that you are totally unimportant to this forum, that your contributions are zero as far as reforms are concerned, and that you are an empty loudmouth who has so far only demonstrated his stupidity, prejudice and confused thinking.

admin, this thread has no relevance to reform, please shift it.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#27

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:46 pm

Biradar wrote:... Imam Mohammad bin Ismail and a three of his descendants went into seclusion. Imam Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah did zuhur, but then again in a relatively short while, Imam Tayyeb when into seclusion.
it is time that this thread too goes into seclusion in dawoodi bohra rituals, customs etc forum, never to do zuhur again on bohras and reform section.

Critical_Thinker
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#28

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:59 pm

Biradar wrote:Friend Critical_Thinker,

Before one can determine the significance of something, we must define what one means by significance. For example, Facebook being used by half the population of the planet may be insignificant to me personally, if I do not actually use it. It may be insignificant even if I use it, if I consider it to be a place to do "chit-chat". Now, someone else may consider it highly significant, as it allows them to connect with people who they would not otherwise. Now, to you, this may still be insignificant, as even after connecting, one only ends up doing "chit-chat" or timepass. So, what is significant to one person, may not be to another.

Hence, as obviously you think you have something very significant to contribute, i.e. to prove the insignificance of this forum, you should outline precisely what you consider significant, and how you would measure significance of something. After all, before we can measure something, we need a measuring tape. Please enlighten us poor insignificant fools on the standards a wise person like you uses.

Now, you mentioned about Udapur jamaat having done something significant. Actually, I want to counter that, for the sake of argument. Please tell me what Udaipur jamaat (UJ for short) has achieved which is significant? How does it effect my life, or the life of an average Bohra. In fact, 99% of Bohras don't give a damn about UJ and consider it to be a terrible blight on the community. How has UJ changed the world? Lets be realistic. What fraction of Bohras belong to that jamaat? What has it done to change the world? Has 99.999999% of humanity even heard of UJ? So, I submit that UJ is a totally insignificant thing, a place to do chit-chat and timepass. As an UJ member (as you claim to be) you are just a terrible insignificant person, wasting your time in it, without doing anything of significance. So sad.
Before one can determine the significance of something, we must define what one means by significance.
I have many times already, but will repeat again to clarify.
The premise of the forum is to 'reform' the bohra community.
At least that is what the main posters here espouse.
Therefore to be significant, the forum must have evidence to show that this goal is being achieved.
Ozdundee explains it another way near the bottom of his post on the second page of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10423&start=30#p150669
'The way one can calibrate is the impact and outcome it has on society'
The society in question is of course the bohra community.
Please tell me how the traditional jamaat is becoming reformed due to the impact of this forum?
There is nothing that I can see.
In fact according to many posters here, life in the traditional jamaat is getting worse not better.

you think you have something very significant to contribute, i.e. to prove the insignificance of this forum,
I am merely a bored housewife who posts here inbetween changing the diapers of my newborn.
The only thing I contribute is my opinion, just like everybody else, including yourself.
Im sure youve heard the funny saying about opinions and how we all have them.
The reason I started this topic is because so many people here bring it up against me.
Therefore I thought it best to have a separate thread so they dont derail other topics like they do so often.

Please tell me what Udaipur jamaat (UJ for short) has achieved which is significant?
We showed the traditional jamaat that the kothar can be beaten.
Something that most thought was impossible.
That freedom can be had if you genuinely want it.
We have inspired many to follow in our footsteps and have progressive jamaats all over the world now.
Indeed this forum itself exists thanks to the revolution in udaipur, doesnt it biradar.
Still if you do feel that UJ is insignificant, that is your prerogative and you are free to do so.
It doesnt matter to me in the slightest, nor will I start insulting and abusing you like so many do to me here.

you are just a terrible insignificant person, wasting your time in it, without doing anything of significance.
Indeed I am, and so are the rest of us here.
Why is it so bad to be insignificant?
Why is it so bad to waste time doing insignificant things?
As fayaaz bhai might say, its not against the law!
Hopefully you wont mind if play candy crush on my phone later today?

I am curious about something which I hope you can explain biradar.
You have been on the forum almost 5 years and have made just under 300 posts so far.
That equates to about 60 posts a year.
Why do you contribute so little here if you think the forum is so significant?

I have been here only a couple of months and already have over 100 posts.
Most likely I will have over 300 posts within 5 months, never mind 5 years.
And I merely come here to chit-chat and pass the time.

Indeed, look at anajmi who makes about 1000 posts a year.
He most certainly thinks this forum is significant as he is here 247!
Why do you post here only about 6% as much as anajmi?

Does this mean that you feel the forum is significant, but only 'slightly' significant.
In other words 'almost' insignificant?

Critical_Thinker
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#29

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:33 pm

fayyaaz wrote:A measure of this site's significance is two-fold:

1. Primarily, it allows Bohras a freedom to express their views about their community without someone watching over their back.

2. Secondarily, it has the potential to blaze the trail of Reform.


Udaipur Jamaat is significant because it has shown the way how Bohras could bring Reform without having to ditch the Dai as UJ has done.

Point 1 has been achieved admirably. Downside is that point 2 can only be a faint hope because the forum is the mainstay of anti-Bohras who are not interested in Reform. They just want to bitch. Free for all participation specially by Wahhabi ex-Bohra, a major contributor, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc by this Wahhabi ex-Bohra. He derails most threads and normally has the last word on any thread, because eventually most participants tire of him except some die-hard followers of his. Expect instant response from him to this post. He is here 24/7.

If you need a metric, then it will be the level of local democracy which will enable Jamaat committees to set the dues and be accountable for expenditure.
1. This is quite possible for all bohras to do in the privacy of their own homes.
Perhaps this is why so few people come here, because for them, this forum is unnecessary?

2. Udaipur has already blazed this trail.
All the unhappy traditional bohras need to do now, is join us.
There are progressive jamaats are all over the world waiting to welcome them.

Critical_Thinker
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#30

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:56 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:, skews the forum away from any discussion of Reform by constant charge of unIslamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship, etc
fayyaz,

are you just plain stupid or acting like one? what do you call doing sajdas to the dai, calling him haqiqi kaaba, naatiqe quran, ilah ul ardh, mojiza na saheb, hunting wild animals for pleasure, calling his mongrels shezaadas and zaadis? is it islamic, kufr, shirk, idol worship or just fine and dandy from the islamic point of view?

if the money and power hungry dai and his cohorts are themselves playing into the hands of non-bohra muslims with their unislamic behaviour, then why blame just one specific person for exposing these acts of kufr, tyranny and exploitation?

and why does it bother you whether anyone points it out? as an avowed atheist, religions hold no significance for you because they all talk of a god or gods. why do you want to reform a cult which chooses to worship their dai as their god on earth? let them enjoy their kufr, let those opposing them indulge in calling them kafirs and munafekeens. they are all ok as per the laws of united states.

all you need to do is to provide both sides their freedoms without taking sides. your tendency to allow cult members to practise their kufr whilst objecting to those opposed to it (whether they are bohras or non-bohras), is defeating your own defense of free speech.

just fine and dandy from the islamic point of view?
According to their beliefs, yes, it is fine and dandy.
Who are you to question it as being otherwise?
Are you anybody important al zulfiqar?
It reminds me of the reply pope francis gave when questioned on homosexuality.
His response was simply 'who am I to judge'. What a great man he is. An inspiration to us all.
Why not focus on the corruption of the kothar, instead of pretending you are an islamic scholar with the final word on islam.

and why does it bother you whether anyone points it out?
What does 'pointing it out' achieve? Nothing.
Why does it bother you so much? Because you are still part of it.
Perhaps you should stop lying about leaving the traditional jamaat and actually go do it for real.
When you join the progressives, you wont care about the traditional jamaat anymore.
Your anger and belligerence will immediately melt away.