Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

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IMMUSLIM
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Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#1

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:22 pm

Why do we call ourselves Sunnis, Shias, Bohras, Ismailis whereas Quran Says

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with God: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." 6.159

And

"But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself." 23.053
"But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time." 23.054

porus
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#2

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:27 pm

It is instructive to read Muhammad Asad's commentary on verse 6:159.

The ayat is in the past tense. Here is Asad's translation:

"Verily, as to those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God, and in time, He will make them understand what they were doing."

Now, obviously, none of the people born into any sect today is guilty of breaking the unity of their faith. They are in fact, for the most part, faithful followers of the faith they have been taught.

Therefore the interpretation of the above ayat is not so much about sects but about 'sectarianism' arising out of people's intolerant, mutually-exclusive claims to being "the only true exponents" of the Quranic teachings. Yet the ayat clearly states that their case rests with God alone.

Now think. There is a great diversity of dogma, doctrine and rituals within Islam. However there is an underlying unity of faith in one God. Sunnis and Shia will live together in celebration of this unity, except for those who want to inject "secterianism" in the world.

The ayat in arabic uses the words "wa kanoo, shi'an". The bigots interpret this to mean that the current Shia have broken the unity. But this could not have been true if you look at the reason for revelation of the ayat which was in the context of the 'other people of the book'.

It is useless to discuss this with bigots, because their arrogance is the prime reason for breaking the unity of the faith of Islam, and this ayat refers to them in the prophetic way. While the pronoun 'thou' refers to the Prophet, it also refers to all who understand that unity of faith primarily refers to being true to Islam in the way you have been taught. Most current sects are faithful to the unity of message of Islam.

Aarif
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#3

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 pm

"wa kanoo, shi'an".
Br. Porus,

Just to enhance my knowledge about Islam I had a question for you. I always thought that Quran was revealed to prophet before Islam was broken into different sects. Going by that this words in holy Quran could never have referred to Shia's as during the time of prophet there was only one united Islam. I.e. there was no concept of Shia-Sunni at that time. Am I right about this?? Please shed some light on it.

Thanks in advance..

porus
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#4

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:10 pm

You are right, aareef. The way we understand Sunni-Shia split today did not exist while Prophet was alive, at least not to the same degree.

However, the seed of discord always existed among companions who jockeyed for favor with Prophet. This is why Abu Hurayra, one of the companions, reported that the ayat 6:159 applied not only to Jews and Christians, but also, prophetically, to Muslims of that time.

The Shia-Sunni split that we understand today had its roots in the issue of Ali being passed over as Khalifa against the wishes of the Prophet. The split solidified with major doctrinaire differences on the interpretation of Quran. Despite that being the case, the basic unity of Islam has remained intact.

It is not the different sects that are the problem. That was bound to happen. In fact Prophet had prophesied it. In any case, that is a purely human cultural and sociological phenomena, which is completely natural in evolution of societies. The problem is 'sectarianism', when some sects claim exclusive superiority and try to co-opt others to their view by violence, harrassment etc.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#5

Unread post by Danish » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:29 pm

Neither the book titled Quran nor the religion named Islam were present during the time of Abu al Qasim (nicknamed ~ muhammad - the priased one).

He was ordained by his natural perceptions (figment of imaginations) due to the "unwise" and often erraneous circumstances/events that unfolded to bring about a 'just' and a 'blissfull system' for all during his times.

Several injunctions of the Quran cannot possibly be applied today as they are not only outdated but meaningless (some of them severely harsh as viewed by today's standards/perspectives) and the Quran does profess reformation.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:11 am

aareef,

Yes you are right. There was no Shia Sunni split during the time of the prophet. Specifically, there were no shias during the time of the prophet. During that time there were only those that believed in the quran and followed the sunnah of the prophet and those that rejected it.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:13 am

Most current sects are faithful to the unity of message of Islam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with porus. We should beware of those pretenders who would have you believe that Allah could be a female with three horns and a baritone voice!!

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:17 am

Why do we call ourselves Sunnis, Shias, Bohras, Ismailis whereas Quran Says
You should also ask why some choose to call others "wahhabis" even though they wouldn't prefer it?

What I have noticed is that most "Sunnis" would be preferred to be called Muslims. Shias however, prefer to be called shias, infact Bohras actually deny being muslims. Same is the case with the Ismailis.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#9

Unread post by Danish » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:19 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
During that time there were only those that believed in the quran and followed the sunnah of the prophet and those that rejected it.
There was no book called "Quran" during "muhammad's" times. As a matter of historical fact, there were NO BOOKS AT ALL. 'Sunnah' of 'muhammad' came centuries AFTER his death instigated by the unscrupulous Bukhari & Co.

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#10

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:33 am

There is only one God, so regardless of our different understanding or ways of worship---we all ultimately worship the "one" God/divine/creator ---whatever name we may call it.

Making judgements against others based on a premise that you/your beliefs/your God is "superior" to all others is the cause of divisions and disunity.

Al-Gazzali, a scholar of the 10/11th century came up with the idea of "Satanic Logic" based on the story of Iblis in the Quran. He said that Iblis refused to bow to Adam because of a "false" assumption that fire was better than clay. Since this assumption was based on faulty logic---one that assumed a false value of fire vs clay---he called it "satanic logic"

If Allah is "unity" then satan is disunity, and when we try to use satanic logic to create disunity, we move away from Allah's path.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:48 am

Danish,

The quran is a book only to those that are ignorant about the religion of Islam. The quran is a message of Allah. The book didn't exist, but the message did, and there were those who believed in it.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#12

Unread post by Danish » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:51 am

I'm afraid I do not WORSHIP any GOD, gods or goddesses and neither do I bow down and submit to any man or man-made tangibles. I only SERVE what NATURE/REALITY dictates me by its very signs and circumstances of contemplation.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:13 am

Well, thanks for pointing out that you belong to the category of those who rejected the message.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#14

Unread post by Danish » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:59 am

The Message is categorically disoriented, disdainful and distasteful when Bukhara & Co. is injected and taken undue advantage to support 'quran'. In that pretext, I reject all loud noises.

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#15

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:07 am

anjami

Your post about the Quran not being a book was interesting. It is my understanding that the Quran has no biginning and no end? A book normally has a biginning a middle and an end. It is also interesting to note that the verses (ayah) are "signs". ---signs that show the way perhaps?

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#16

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:09 am

anajmi--I typed wrong, I apologise for the spelling mistake.

porus
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#17

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:11 am

If Quran is not a book, why does Quran refer to itself as a book and swear by itself, like wal-quranil hakeem?

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#18

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:19 am

Torah in hebrew apparently means "guide" Bible apparently comes from the greek word biblios which means "book" and Quran (I think) means "recite" or "recitation".

I guess the easiest definition of all these would be "revelation"?

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:26 am

Thai,

The quran is a book as per the quran itself as pointed out by porus. I was simply responding to Danish's post about the quran not being a book during the time of the prophet - which is correct. When someone refers to the quran during the time of the prophet, even though they may not know it, they are simply referring to the message of Allah and not a book per se. Surah Bakara talks about the kitaab in its 2nd ayah.

So when a person like Danish tries to mislead, he needs to be corrected in a way that he would understand. If I were to give him those ayahs about the quran being a book, he would start shouting again that there was no book and that the quran is lie. People need to be handled as per the number of horns on their head.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#20

Unread post by Danish » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:32 am

It's a Petrified Tree of information that got recorded of the events that happened in the PAST. The Quranic verses were collected, compiled, revamped and garlanded (of language and sound) by the later scribes. The book titled Quran was never there during 'muhammad's' time to begin with. The "paper book", as we have it today, did not fall from the sky in 'muhammad's' hands out of thin air from above.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#21

Unread post by Danish » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:37 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
The quran is a book as per the quran itself as pointed out by porus.
It's a non-sequitur, non-sensical & circular argument Muslims thoughtlessly front-line.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:42 am

Thai,

Read Danish's response and see what I said!! You need to respond to people based upon the number of horns on their heads!!

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#23

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:47 am

:D ;)

porus
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#24

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:53 am

Maybe, the book that Quran refers to is not the book of Quran, we are familiar with; the one consisting of paper and ink.

Knowlegeable Ismailies and Bohras are probably familiar with the equation kitab mubeen = imam mubeen which comes from Haqaaiq.

Unfortunately, this subject cannot be discussed on this board with the 3 bigots, Danish, anajmi and Muslim First ridiculing everything that could be discussed. If there is forum of like-minded people I could join, where bigots would not derail discussion and fruitful exchange of ideas, please let me know.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:12 am

Knowlegeable Ismailies and Bohras
:D :D

The same kind of knowledge that shows them a female god with three horns and a baritone voice in their dreams? Now, I know you will say that you were only joking, but you were ridiculing the beliefs of others, you bigot!!

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:23 am

Knowlegeable Ismailies and Bohras are probably familiar with the equation kitab mubeen = imam mubeen which comes from Haqaaiq.
The fact that the Bohra Imam has been hidden for centuries and the quran is right there, should send the bohras back to school.

And how many times have I asked the Ismailis for their Hazar Imam's interpretation of the quran? If this is knowledge then no wonder conmen are ruling these sects!!

Muslim First
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#27

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:58 am

Unfortunately, this subject cannot be discussed on this board with the 3 bigots, Danish, anajmi and Muslim First ridiculing everything that could be discussed.
I am trying to stay out of it but it looks like Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus wants to discuss "kitab mubeen = imam mubeen which comes from Haqaaiq" with himself.

Wasalaam

Muslim First
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#28

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:18 am

As suggestion Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus can go to Ismaili.net and discuss "kitab mubeen = imam mubeen which comes from Haqaaiq" and 2 Bigots and other guy would not be permitted there. He would find many knowledgeable Ismailis.

To start with he can join this forum.


IMMUSLIM
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#29

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:10 pm

Our topic was “Why we do not call ourselves Muslims”. Irrespective of our interpretation of Quran if we start calling ourselves Muslims this will bring us together.
003.019 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.
042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).
Pickthall’s Transaltion
Quran says that there is only one religion that was ordained from Noah to Prophet Muhammad and also says that those before Prophet Muhammad differed afterwards. If we look at ourselves are we not doing the same thing that we started our differences after Prophet Muhammad. Regarding Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Aisha, please note that there is a period of unrecorded history, even today we do not get yesterday’s news correctly so why should we fight today for something that somebody wrote twelve or thirteen centuries ago. There may or may not be any rivalry between the Companions of Prophet and here we are killing each other based on assumptions.
Several injunctions of the Quran cannot possibly be applied today as they are not only outdated but meaningless (some of them severely harsh as viewed by today's standards/perspectives) and the Quran does profess reformation.
Brother Danish what is considered a norm today may not be considered as norm tomorrow, whatever sounds like outdated today may be the next generation will feel that it is correct but you and me will not be there. So the Quranic injunctions are for all times if applied correctly it will bring change in any society.
Today Bill Gates is advocating Creative Capitalism where capitalism should not only work for selected fews but every segment of the society should take the benefit of it. This is what Islam has ordained centuries ago. Creative Capitalism says keep some profit and spend some on under privileged whereas Islam says spend as much as you can in Charity. Imagine a society where multiplier rate is infinite. What economist are trying to achieve today was ordained centuries ago.

Another example is today’s oil crisis, how many people suffered around the world just for the benefit of the few. Again if the Islamic principles were applied this crisis would never have occurred.
How could somebody who did not even know how to write, came up with up such a complex yet simple economic system. Do you still feel it was all circumstantial?

Aarif
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#30

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:18 pm

IMMUSLIM,

Good post... I agree with you. In fact there are many things like "Plants have life" mentioned in Quran which was discovered by science just a few centuries back. Some yogis have acknowledged that most of the body movements in namaz represent one or the other yoga asanaas... There are many such logical facts. Circumcision for men results in much healthier form of life. It is sheer ignorance to reject the entire ocean of knowledge based on the understanding of just one glass of water...