Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

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Muslim First
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#31

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:35 pm

Br. IAMMUSLIM

AS

Kindly ignore posts from IAMNOTMUSLIM. He does not have curtsy even to call our prophet or our book with respect.

Wasalaam

Fatwa Banker
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#32

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:07 am

Aareef,

You missed one....it is said that the Quran was also responsible for the modern day Hot Stone massage therapy. Mary Hannigan learnt it while witnessing the Islamic act of death by stoning. The idea came to her when she noticed that the victims seemed to achieve therapeutic bliss just prior to their slow death.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:17 am

FB,

That was a fart wasn't it? ;)

Danish
Posts: 1106
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#34

Unread post by Danish » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:12 am

Originally posted by Fatwa Banker:
Hot Stone massage therapy. ...Islamic act of death by stoning.
LOL! ROFL! :)

Islamic ritualistic ideology is essentially holistic in adoring and venerating all sorts of stones. It is a stone worshipping religion similar to Hinduism and Judaism.

Thai
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#35

Unread post by Thai » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:11 am

IMMUSLIM

I have to agree with you that the bussiness and economic policies of the Quran make sense and are based on the principles of Justice. I have owned my own bussiness and so have had the oppurtunity to actually test these (bussiness)principles and they have worked extremely well. Based on this, I feel that the economic principles, if applied correctly, would also be far more successful than our present economic policies.

The Quran is a book of guidance. It would be nice if muslims were able to concentrate on just that---instead of things that only serve to divide? or is that being too naive and simplistic?

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#36

Unread post by Thai » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:44 am

Islam and stoning

I have heard some communities practice stoning (Africa?). I understand that stoning was a Judaic Law and was used for 4 types of crime, one was treason, the other adultery (I think), I don't remember the other two. Anyway, All Judaic law is supposed to be based on Humane and just treatment. As far as I know---in the Quran---The punishment for treason is not stoning anymore, instead, 4 options are given and the one that is the most lenient is the option of exile.(Surah 5, v33) For adultery, the Judaic punishment of stoning has been changed to caning(?) but under such stringent conditions of proof that such punishment would be almost impossible under the spirit of the Quran.

That leaves "cutting off of hand" I don't know where the Quran mentions this but I think it has to do with stealing? As Jesus explains in the bible (Mark chap9-verse43) "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire" (---I have not read the bible--got this off the internet chatting with a christian.)

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#37

Unread post by Thai » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:56 am

Whether or not the degree of punishment is "acceptable" or not---I think we all agree that punishments for crimes are necessary in order to uphold the ideals of Justice. However, the Quran tells us many times that Justice works best when tempered with compassion and mercy and that forgiveness is better for our souls. ---We can make of that what we want.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#38

Unread post by Danish » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:20 am

Originally posted by IMMUSLIM:
Our topic was “Why we do not call ourselves Muslims”. Irrespective of our interpretation of Quran if we start calling ourselves Muslims this will bring us together.
003.019 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.
042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).
Pickthall’s Transaltion
Quran says that there is only one religion that was ordained from Noah to Prophet Muhammad and also says that those before Prophet Muhammad differed afterwards. If we look at ourselves are we not doing the same thing that we started our differences after Prophet Muhammad. Regarding Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Aisha, please note that there is a period of unrecorded history, even today we do not get yesterday’s news correctly so why should we fight today for something that somebody wrote twelve or thirteen centuries ago. There may or may not be any rivalry between the Companions of Prophet and here we are killing each other based on assumptions.
Several injunctions of the Quran cannot possibly be applied today as they are not only outdated but meaningless (some of them severely harsh as viewed by today's standards/perspectives) and the Quran does profess reformation.
Brother Danish what is considered a norm today may not be considered as norm tomorrow, whatever sounds like outdated today may be the next generation will feel that it is correct but you and me will not be there. So the Quranic injunctions are for all times if applied correctly it will bring change in any society.
If what is considered norm today may not be considered norm tomorrow, then, with your "correct" analogy, what was considered norm yesterday may not be considered norm today; which negates yesterdays Quranic injunctions for todays and tomorrows, hence Quran is not for ALL TIMES AND FOR FOR ALL MANKIND. It was never meant to be in the first place as clearly upheld.

[QUOE]Another example is today’s oil crisis, how many people suffered around the world just for the benefit of the few. Again if the Islamic principles were applied this crisis would never have occurred.
How could somebody who did not even know how to write, came up with up such a complex yet simple economic system. Do you still feel it was all circumstantial?
[/QUOTE]How is oil crises related to Quranic injunctions BEATS ME, LOL! Were there any oil crises during Abu al Qassim's reign???

Aarif
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#39

Unread post by Aarif » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:39 pm

If what is considered norm today may not be considered norm tomorrow, then, with your "correct" analogy, what was considered norm yesterday may not be considered norm today; which negates yesterdays Quranic injunctions for todays and tomorrows, hence Quran is not for ALL TIMES AND FOR FOR ALL MANKIND. It was never meant to be in the first place as clearly upheld.
What are the basis of your above-mentioned conclusion? How did you concluded that Quran is no longer valid? The usual suspect is google.com ;)

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#40

Unread post by Danish » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:49 pm

I did not say that Quran is not valid but rather many of its injunctions such as distribution of wealth, punishments, marriage laws, jizya, to name a few. Inadvertently as claimed, it is neither for ALL TIMES nor for ALL MANKIND.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#41

Unread post by Danish » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:31 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
I did not say that Quran is not valid but rather many of its injunctions such as distribution of wealth, punishments, marriage laws, jizya, to name a few. Inadvertently as claimed, it is neither for ALL TIMES nor for ALL MANKIND.
...and specially certain unprecedented and unrealistic phenomenon that I do no believe in such as a stick turning into serpent, virgin birth, sea being splitted in half by a human, Jews and Christians being transformed into pigs and apes, moon being splitted, and so forth. Perhaps all the above are flagrantly misunderstood and must be trashed onto laughing stocks.

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:52 pm

There are people who believe in it and people who don't. You don't believe in it and that is fine. Do not insist that others should believe as you do, otherwise there is no difference between you and the Arabs who "created this religion called Islam".

IMMUSLIM
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#43

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:31 pm

[QUOE]Another example is today’s oil crisis, how many people suffered around the world just for the benefit of the few. Again if the Islamic principles were applied this crisis would never have occurred.
How could somebody who did not even know how to write, came up with up such a complex yet simple economic system. Do you still feel it was all circumstantial?[/QUOTE]How is oil crises related to Quranic injunctions BEATS ME, LOL! Were there any oil crises during Abu al Qassim's reign???

Muslims are not only supposed to read Quran but to think about what is in it. Danish, you seem to be a very smart person, I am sure you know the reason why the oil prices went up, if you don’t know you can always do some research and figure it out. Also read the interview of Saudi Oil Minister he gave after OPEC Summit and his response to a question about increasing the oil production.
This is what Quarn says about hoarding
009.034 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

009.035 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.
070.018 And hoarded (wealth) and withheld it.

Pickthall’s Translation

Wikipedia defines hoarding as
"On a larger scale hoarding can be a business strategy similar to monopolisation, where an individual or organization attempts to temporarily control all available supplies of a given good in order to artificially increase the price. "
Islam believes in fair distribution of resources. Any attempt to create artificial shortage is not right.
Brother connect the dots and find the answer. Do not read Quran just to criticize it but think about what is in it.
"023.068 Have they not pondered the Word, or hath that come unto them which came not unto their fathers of old? "
Pickthall’s Translation
"023.068 Do they not ponder over the Word (of God), or has anything (new) come to them that did not come to their fathers of old? "
Yousuf Ali’s Translation

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#44

Unread post by Thai » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:10 am

As I understand it---Quran is based on the principles of Justice and Fairness, Compassion and Mercy.

Distribution of wealth---Those who have been given wealth (by Allah) have the responsibility to use it for good.

Punishments--Surah 16, v126---And if you punish, let your punishment be porpotionate to the wrong that has been done to you. But if you show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient.

Marriage laws---Marriage is a contract between two consenting adults. The contract is mutually agreed upon and written. An agreed upon asset is given to the woman/wife which becomes her property.

Jizya---Tax on able bodied men (of other faiths) to give them exemption from military service, it guarantees them protection.

I don't see any problems with these "laws" being implemented today in the form they are presented in the Quran.

In fact, my country has a draft system (boys) which can be avoided if a "donation" is made to the military.----similar concept to Jizya--except in my opinion, Jizya is more fair because it is open, and can be monitored and is based on fair rules.

Thai
Posts: 182
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#45

Unread post by Thai » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:18 am

unrealistic phenomenon--

I can understand the difficulty in believing "unrealistic" phenomenon but what exactly is "unrealistic"? Isn't the idea of a whole universe beginning from a tiny singularity "unrealistic"? or that after the big bang explosion---everything should fall into place in harmony ---according to "laws" --that is pretty "unrealistic" too---after all if you were to set off a bomb---you would only create a mess. Or even the phenomenon of human conception---that from the combination of two simple cells, an egg and a sperm---a complex being is created. ---Yet for some reason, we have no problems believing in such "unrealistic" ideas!!!

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#46

Unread post by Danish » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:21 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
There are people who believe in it and people who don't.
Majority of world population do not and that includes portion of Muslims as well (specially liberals and culturals now that they wisely know and ofcourse the ex-Muslims). Thus Quran has never been nor will be for ALL MANKIND and neither for ALL TIMES. Those who do exalt, revere and worship their holier-than-thou man-made idol book are truely the fundamentalists, extremists, terrorists and the illeterates. Now don't get me wrong, the Quran surely has a lot of good to offer incessantly but so do gazillion others.

The True Furqan (a challenge to Quran), far supercedes any ancient holy books in every respect and without having holy shmoly garbage. The following is the Amazon editorial review (also notice that majority of customer reviews are written by the drum/chest beating Muslims ~ obviously. :D ):

Book Description
Arabic and English side-by-side on every page. Prose and poetry of the highest caliber in classical Arabic with English interpretation. It contains 77 surahs (chapters) dealing with as many subjects which are beautifully written and easily understood. Love, Light, Peace, Truth, Repentance, Women, Marriage, Fasting, Prayer, Abrogation, The Sacrifice, Inspiration, Paradise, The Scale and The Excellent Names are some of the chapters written in the unique style of the Quran.
http://www.amazon.com/True-Furqan-Al-Sa ... 749&sr=8-1

anajmi
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:23 am

Fortunately, there are probably not more than 3 people who follow your interpretation of the quran.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#48

Unread post by Danish » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:32 am

IMMUSLIM,

First off, hoarding simply means accumulation and depends on rightful or illicit acquisition. I believe hoarding of wealth is neither a crime nor a sin UNLESS acquired illicitly/cunningly (like the Bohra priesthood & Kotharies).

I don't think that our current oil crises is entirely due to hoarding of wealth via cunning business practices of OPEC but more to do with supply and demand along with politics & war, though I do content that you are right.

Aarif
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#49

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:12 pm

I don't think that our current oil crises is entirely due to hoarding of wealth via cunning business practices of OPEC but more to do with supply and demand along with politics & war,
As usual you are viewing this from the wrong side of the fence. No one blames OPEC for oil crisis.. The ones to be blamed are the ones who are buying raw oil from them and selling it for huge profits. They are the greedy ones.. Bush had a family business of oil in Texas. So does Exxon and Mobil and Shell etc. These are the culprits. And remember they are the richest companies in the world. Also, demand and supply is a loose term. There is always enough oil available to meet the needs.. But why would somebody disclose that. If they do than you would not be paying $4.5 per gallon...

IMMUSLIM
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#50

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:17 pm

Any attempt to control supplies of oil to increase the price is considered hoarding in modern terms. These individuals or companies invest their money to purchase oil for future delivery thereby creating artificial price increase so that they can sell it for higher price.
This is the reason why hoarding is unlawful in Islam, because Islam believes resources or products should reach consumers fairly. Any profit thus made in this process of fair distribution is lawful.
Now think about food crisis, all of a sudden food consumption increased. I am not denying that demand for oil or food did not increase but attempts were made to control the supply of basic commodities in order to increase the prices.
Think again how could somebody 14 centuries ago who could not even write came up with this idea that hoarding should be unlawful. This law was good then and it is good now if applied.

I believe hoarding of wealth is neither a crime nor a sin UNLESS acquired illicitly/cunningly

Danish, the more money circulates in the system the more it is beneficial for the society. Hoarding of wealth decreases the circulation of wealth. That is why charity is so much encouraged.

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#51

Unread post by Thai » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:53 pm

circulation of money through charity--

You make an excellent point. I was talking about global economics with someone---Today, in countries like the U.S. for example, the well-being of their economy depends on "consumer spending"---that is, the more money circulated in the economy through purchases, the better the economy. This has unfortunately created a "consumer oriented" society where people mindlessly purchase things they neither want nor use and end up renting warehouses to house their "junk" for years and years.---That is why (I think)the circulation of money through charity is a better way to simulate the economy. It is good for the spirit and good for the society as well as the economy. I think that compared to its population, the U.S. consumes more than other countries.

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#52

Unread post by Danish » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:07 am

Once again, the correct definition of hoarding is simply accumulation; nothing wrong there. Your definition is stretched out towards price hikes by unlawful means and it has nothing to do with religion and Islam is not exclusive.

As a matter of fact, the Arabized Islam has too many illicit gains to mention in comparison to business-cum-religious tactics. One of the major business gains Islam makes is built into halal this and halal that, second to the most silliest money making machine at Mecca. Then there are several religious thithes exhorbitantly and forceably charged, among others.

Aarif
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#53

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:41 pm

As a matter of fact, the Arabized Islam has too many illicit gains to mention in comparison to business-cum-religious tactics.
You cannot blame the greed of Saudi govt on Islam. If they are charging exorbitant amount of money from people who want to go for haj than it is their problem. Islam has nothing to do with it. Also, if kothar is collecting huge amounts of illicit money from bohras than it is not Islam's fault. But than this is way too straight forward to understand unless you are playing devil's advocate or maybe devil himself ;)

IMMUSLIM
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#54

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:12 pm

Regarding halal this and halal that or tithes, they are all human addition to the religion over the period of centuries. That is why Allah has mentioned in Quran several times to recite, read and understand Quran. Our dilemma is we depend on clergy to explain us everything so they speak their language, whereas Quran has repeatedly emphasized on reading and understanding by each and every Muslim. On the contrary these very religious leaders tell us that we need somebody to explain us the meaning of Quran. First create a demand then offer your services.

Danish, please quote any verse from Quran regarding tithes to be given to any group or an individual. The practice of tithe exists before Islam.
Today, in countries like the U.S. for example, the well-being of their economy depends on "consumer spending"

Brother Thai, what encourages a person to spend freely? In US economy parents do not have to take care of children once they grow up so no need to save. Secondly they know they will get their social security or 401 K once they retire.(This generation will get it or not its a different story)

Where as Islam says

029.060 And how many an animal there is that beareth not its own provision! Allah provideth for it and for you. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Pickthall’s Translation

Muslims are supposed to have faith in Allah for tomorrow, which we say but do not believe. With this faith if a community spends freely in charity that economy will never see recession, on the other hand there will be no abnormal profits either. Result fair distribution wealth, no anxiety, no depression. As human beings we are focused on
102.001 Rivalry in worldly increase distracteth you

102.002 Until ye come to the graves

But Islam wants us to focus on other realties.

Thai
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#55

Unread post by Thai » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:56 pm

The problem with U.S.--as I understood it, was "debt-spending"---that is, one of the tools that a government uses to regulate "spending" is interest rates and when interest rates are reduced, spending is encouraged with easy access loans---particularly "plastic". ---so people spend what they do not have--rather than living within their means.

I don't know if this is accurate but some say that the U.S. alone consumes about half the worlds resources!!!

Charity is important in Islam--but I think the Quran also mentions that before charity, one must take care of one's obligations/responsibilities, that of parents and family and relatives in need. To have faith in Allah is indeed a good thing, but not at the expense of relinquishing one's (god-given) responsibilities.

Thai
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#56

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:02 am

I find "halal" labels useful. The Jews also have their "Kosher" stuff. For example, in Japan, muslims cannot eat cereal because breakfast cereals are fortified with vitamins and vitamin A is made out of pig!!! The muslim association of Japan found this out and warned the muslim community. The reason is probably so the cereal companies can use low grade ingredients to make more profits which they keep for themselves.---greed. In another instance, a drug company made medicine out of horses urine!!!---needless to say, it caused problems in humans who consumed it (cancer--I think)

Today, companies are increasingly motivated by greed and very willing to screw consumers for their own gains. That is why having standards such as Halal and kosher are more important today.

IMMUSLIM
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#57

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:56 pm

The question still remained unanswered. I will rephrase my question. Should we call ourselves Muslims or Shia, Sunni, Bohra, Ismaili ?

042.013 “He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him). “
Pickthall’s Translation

Allah has ordained one religion. He did not ordained Shiaism, Sunnism, Bohraism or Ismailism. Calling us Muslims will bring us together otherwise will remain divided forever.

Muslim First
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#58

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:20 pm

Those who Islam as per Qur'an and way Prophet SAW did should call themselves MUSLIM.

I am proud to be plain MUSLIM.

turbocanuck
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#59

Unread post by turbocanuck » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:05 pm

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Those who Islam as per Qur'an and way Prophet SAW did should call themselves MUSLIM.

I am proud to be plain STUPID.
As per the Sunnah, The Holy prophet molested a little girl and also killed, have you partaken in any of these filthy acts? and The Paak rasool lived in Mecca and Medina, why are you here in the USA? oh i know why....... free handouts and ability to speak your mind...(an oxymoron)

Danish
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Re: Why we do not call ourselves Muslims

#60

Unread post by Danish » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:52 am

IMMUSLIM, if charity was the only solution to economic prosperity, then why are Islamic countries under severe poverty, at least a century backward and beggars in every corner of their streets, in spite of duress and aritficial prowess? Muslims talk more and act less and Islam is a ficticious Arabized religion. Can you name an Islamic country that abides strictly by Quranic injunctions alone?

Did you know that the US carries the most and highest charitable organizations in the world, ever ready to help and support even their staunchest enemies? Islamic countries hardly even help each other.

In our time and age, charity will neither help nor boost economic and social structure, though it may temporarily help towards meagre level. It is simply the supply and demand. This is not 7th century, mind you.