Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

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anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#61

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:11 am

I do not have a problem with combining prayers as a matter of convenience. Do not do it as a rule. The bohras have made combining of prayers a religious ruling. Try praying zuhr and asr separately in a bohra mosque and see what happens. So when you say,
Shias don't have an issue with praying separately and they often do.
you are being disingenous. Remember, I am a bohra, at least everyone else in my family still is, so I know what they believe.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#62

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:17 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
Originally posted by porus:
Agreed.
Q.E.D. ??
It is convenient, not that it is combined because of convenience. There is no compulsion to combine prayers.

QED means that this coversation proves that Bohra namaaz are in accordance with Quran and Prophet's sunna.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#63

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:20 am

anajmi, don't call Muslim dishonest. You look in the mirror. No one is forcing anyone to pray any namaaz. If you want to avoid imamat asr namaaz in a Bohra masjid, you can do so. No one will call you a kafir.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#64

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:40 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
Muslim,

Here is a paragraph from Daimul Islam as a final post on this topic. I think my point has been made.

The rule of action, however, based on what was witnessed by the people and according to the calls to prayer whereof the Imams were apprised, is that the call for the asr should be given at the beginning of the ninth hour [after sunrise], and this is two complete hours after midday. This closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad b. Ali [Imam al-Baqir] reported by us, and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al-Sadiq]. He, who offers his zuhr prayer in leisurely fashion--the compulsory, the sunna, and the supererogatory prayers--and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].

So please, next time you combine prayers, make sure that your zuhr is two hours long.
The guy wants desperately to win. OK you have won. Keep calling the Shia kafir. You have plenty of company. And let your family go through this thread so they can see what the Bohras really believe.

For what it is worth, I will give an opinion on this "rule of action" paragraph.

It appears to be a commentary by Qazi Noman and not a saying of Imam Jaafar al-Sadiq. Remember, majority of the subjects of the Fatimid Khilafa were Sunnis. And they did not change the traditional azan times prevailing there before the advent of the Fatimids.

Qazi Noman is saying that Muhammad a-Baqir took upto 2 hours to pray zuhr namaaz and would have found the asr azan two hours after zawaal to be just right for him. Thus, others who follow al-Baqir will also find the azan just right.

The paragraph is not saying that prayers cannot be combined.

I further speculate that if the majority were the Shia, asr azan would have begun immediately after completion of zuhr. In that case, those who wanted to wait, especially the Sunnis, could do so. Nothing in Shia belief will allow any quarrel with those who wanted to wait. Unlike fanatical Wahhabis, who want desperately to win, and condemn anyone who do not do what they do.

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#65

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:08 am

porus,
Keep calling the Shia kafir.
I am not sure why you keep saying that? More than me, it is you who keeps proving that shias are kafir. If they are like you then the might as well be, which I am hoping they are not.

Your explanation of Daimul Islam is nothing but spin, as always. I am not interested in your explanation of Daimul Islam. I think what it says is pretty clear for those that aren't conniving liars. There is a reason why the translator you chose, preferred to omit the paragraph from his translation.

Try praying asr separately from zuhr in a bohra mosque while the amil is watching and see what happens. Besides, I don't have to try desperately to win, I proved my point about 2 dozen posts ago. I am indulging you to make sure people who are reading this don't get affected by your spin.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#66

Unread post by Muslim » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:58 am

Do not do it as a rule.

It is not a rule.

The bohras have made combining of prayers a religious ruling

No such "ruling" exists outside the figment of your imagination. As stated many times before, Bohras pray separately on Laylatul Qadr. Not only that, in Ramadhan, depending on the region, Bohras pray maghrib, break their fast, listen to a sermon, and pray isha a good hour after maghrib at least. So where is this "ruling"? Can you quote any Bohra authority that you says you HAVE to pray combined?

What is disingenuous is for you to come on to this board and accuse Bohras of "innovation":

"combining prayers is not an interpretation of the quran, but an innovation."

and then 2 days later:

"I do not have a problem with combining prayers as a matter of convenience."

You seem confused and inconsistent. Do not worry too much about Da'aimul Islam - you are an ex-Bohra just a couple of years shy of 40 who has only just learn the correct way to say the Muslim greeting. Instead of schooling us about Bohra "innovation" start with the basics of Islam and learn some more about your adopted pseudo-Sunni doctrines.

It may help you to understand what 'innovation' is according to Sunnism. Not all innovations are bad - tareweh prayers and Umar modifying the adhan are considered good innovations. Milad-an-nabi is also considered a good innovation (except by Salafis and Wahhabis).

A bad innovation according to Sunnism has to meet 2 conditions:
a) something new introduced into religion that didn't exist at the time of the Prophet
b) explicitly contradict the Quran or Sunnah

Sunnis often forget the second condition when accusing others of bad innovation.

Some Sunni views on innovation:

Al-Tirmidhi: "He who inaugurates a good practice (sanna fil-islam sunnatun hasana) in Islam earns the reward of it, and of all who perform it after him, without diminishing their own rewards in the least. "

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani: "Anything that did not exist during the Prophet's time is called innovation, but some are good while others are not."

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#67

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:06 am

Let me reiterate the important points. I promise you that this will be my final post on this topic on this thread.

There is no ruling in Islam that prayers need to combined.

The prophet prayed 5 times separately at the specified times far more often than he combined prayers.

Hazrat Ali in Nahjul Balagha specified 5 different times for the 5 prayers and does not mention anything about combining prayers, and that does not mean that you can combine prayers.

There is no ayat in the quran which talks about combining prayers, and that does not mean that you can combine prayers. For eg. there is no law that says that breakfast, lunch and dinner should be had separately. Doesn't mean that it is ok to have them together every day.

Fact - Bohras do not allow praying separately of zuhr and asr or maghrib and ishaa in their mosques. You can hide from the Amil and pray it individually but you will never be able to do it in a jama'a. Those who tell you otherwise are lying.

Fact - According to Daimul Islam it is ok to combine prayers as long as you offer zuhr as it should be offered and if offered properly, it would take a couple of hours to offer zuhr. Every thing else about sunni population and adhan times is spin and speculation.

Fact - According to Daimul Islam, the adhan for asr should be offered nine hours after sunrise. So if sunrise is at 6:00 in the morning then asr time will start at 3:00 pm in the afternoon. Pretty much the same as Sunni times.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#68

Unread post by Muslim » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:12 am

--There is no ruling in Islam that prayers need to combined.

Who said there was?

-- There is no ayat in the quran which talks about combining prayers
-- Nahjul Balagha ... does not mention anything about combining prayers


All irrelevant since
a) the Prophet combined prayers by your own admission, and
b) nobody is arguing one MUST combine prayers.

--- Anajmi fiction: Bohras do not allow praying separately of zuhr and asr or maghrib and ishaa in their mosques. You can hide from the Amil and pray it individually but you will never be able to do it in a jama'a. Those who tell you otherwise are lying.

I gave examples of Ramadhan and Laylatul Qadr that shows this is a lie. You chose to ignore that.

And explain this oxymoron to me, how do you pray differently to the Amil in jama? The fact that you are in jamaa in a Bohra mosque means you pray under the Amil at the same time.

-- Anajmi fiction: According to Daimul Islam it is ok to combine prayers ***as long as you offer zuhr as it should be offered*** and if offered properly, it would take a couple of hours to offer zuhr.

The condition highlighted is Anajmi's wishful thinking and a complete lie. Daimul Islam lays down no such condition before one can combine prayers, in fact the opposite.

--- Anajmi fiction: ***According to Daimul Islam,*** the adhan for asr should be offered nine hours after sunrise

Not according to Daimul Islam, but according to commentary in Anajmi's copy.

Nice try at fabricating a meaning that doesn't actually exist.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#69

Unread post by Muslim » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:38 am

To clarify the second last point, the condition that you need to offer zuhr for 2 hours before you can combine it with asr, is a lie.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#70

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:13 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:

The prophet prayed 5 times separately at the specified times far more often than he combined prayers.
And what proof can you offer from Hadith or Seerat that this assertion of yours is true?

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#71

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:00 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:

Hazrat Ali in Nahjul Balagha specified 5 different times for the 5 prayers and does not mention anything about combining prayers, and that does not mean that you can combine prayers.
I reproduce here the original of anajmi's post from nahjul balagha:
Originally posted by anajmi:
Here is an English translation (God save me from the wrath of porus) letter written by Hazrat Ali as recorded in the Nahjul Balagha

Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.


http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter52 .htm#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52[/URL][/URL]

Let us analyze the letter of Ali.

He writes about the end time of zuhr, not the start time.
He writes about the end time of asr, not the start time
He write about the start time of the magharib prayer.
He writes about start time (when twighlight disappears) and end time of the ishaa prayer.

It does not say that you cannot start asr after completing zuhr, whenever that may be.
It says that the appropriate time for Isha is when twighlight disappears, which is about 20-30 minutes afetr sunset in most countries.

We can, therefore, conclude that this letter from Ali corroborates the Shia practice of namaaz and definitely does not, in any way, negate it.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#72

Unread post by porus » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:06 pm

Also, note the following paragraph from Ali's letter:

"While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained."

This slightly contradicts the "rule of action" paragraph in the Poonawala translation. It therefore is a commentary specifi to the practise of Imam al-Baqir as I have explained in the earlier post.

Gursevak
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#73

Unread post by Gursevak » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:16 pm

you are an ex-Bohra just a couple of years shy of 40
itne salon tak inke maa baap ne boj uthaya - why release him into society now. chalo koi ghum nahin do chaar sal me puttar belt pahenkar shaheed hojayenga

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#74

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:11 pm

Muslim,

Since you keep insisting I answer your questions, here is one more. If you need other answers, please start another thread.

You said,
I gave examples of Ramadhan and Laylatul Qadr that shows this is a lie. You chose to ignore that.
The bohras do this for what again? Not because the prophet prayed separately and they want to follow the sunna of the prophet. They do it because they want to squeeze in the "jaman" and the sermon before they get too tired saying maghrib and ishaa together.

As I said before, try saying zuhr and asr separately in a bohra mosque without any reason other than because the prophet did it, and on an ordinary day, in full view of the Amil and see what happens. You don't even need to do that, go ask an Amil if you can pray zuhr and asr separately, if you are not a coward, and post the response that you get over here.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#75

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:12 pm

Anajmi,

Again you're falling back on questioning intentions. For example, let's see, "Sunnis don't pray separately because are following the Prophet, they do it because they get tired easily and need to take breaks". Or, "Sunnis don't fast because they are following the Prophet, they fast because they want to lose their fat bellies".

That's not an answer. These arguments cannot be backed up, they are simply you passing judgment on a persons intentions.

Besides, your argument on "getting tired" does not make sense. If Bohras get tired combining prayers, why do they do it the rest of the year? And in Ramadhan, especially if its summer in the northern hemisphere, it is actually more tiring to sit through sermons rather than pray in quick succession. And regarding "jaman", in Ramadhan that mostly happens AFTER ishaa, not before. Many holes in your argument.

The fact is, regardless of intention, Bohras combine prayers and they pray separately, just like the Prophet. Sunnis don't.

When you accepted that the Prophet prayed combined, are you going to say he did it not because it was acceptable to God, but because he got tired?

go ask an Amil if you can pray zuhr and asr separately

Don't be lazy, this is a question you need the answer to. I already know the answer. So you should go to an "Amil" and ask this question, and maybe even show him the relevant page in Daaimul Islam (unless you are a coward, of course). Besides, questioning one "Amil" is not going to serve any purpose. Bohra beliefs are what's in their books and (for orthodox Bohras) what they generally practice. And both of these point to the fact that they consider it ok to pray in both a combined fashion as well as separately.

Just like the Prophet.

I'm not insisting you answer all questions, I couldn't care less. I'm insisting that by telling us that "this is my last post", not answering any questions posed to you, and then demanding answers on a different thread for the same topic, you are a coward. I'm insisting that by first saying "Combining prayers is an innovation", then saying "I accept the Prophet sometimes combined prayers" and then demanding to know where in Daaimul Islam the Prophet combined prayers, you have absolutely no clue or interest in Islam let alone Bohras and you solely interested in creating fitna.

And I'm not interested in new threads. You will stick to this thread and if I have the time and its worth my while, I will respond.
Originally posted by anajmi:
Here is a paragraph from Daimul Islam as a final post on this topic.
Originally posted by anajmi:
I promise you that this will be my final post on this topic on this thread.
Go one, promise us one more final, final, final post.. ?!

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#76

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:26 pm

Muslim,

Please, go and ask an Amil if you can pray zuhr and asr separately. I am sure you will get the response that I am about to give you, because I did ask. I was told that if I pray separately, I would be following the three shaitaan which is Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. Now please, do not ask me any more questions unless you get an answer from the Amil.

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#77

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:40 pm

And I don't think you are the right person to be calling me a coward. You are the one that ran the last time we had a discussion and stayed hidden like your Imam for a few months. The reason I didn't want to post anymore over here is because I got tired of the spin and stupidity displayed over here. Now, if you don't want things to get to a point where you have to run and hide again, please do not force me into replying to your idiotic posts.

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#78

Unread post by porus » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:55 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
I did ask [the Amil]. I was told that if I pray separately, I would be following the three shaitaan which is Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. Now please, do not ask me any more questions unless you get an answer from the Amil.
This shows you got your match of an Amil in intelligence. There are plenty of amils who are as stupid as you.

Let me ask you. Say you are in the haram at Makka and you have just finished your magharib. There will be a congregational isha prayer in about one and half to two hours. Would you pray your isha before that time because Prophet sometimes prayed it, and because you fancy following the Prophet just this once?

Or would you wait to pray in congrgation? And why would you do it? And why woyuldn't a BIhra have the same reason for praying in congrgation?

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#79

Unread post by porus » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:57 pm

Correction

And why wouldn't a Bohra have the same reason for praying in congrgation?

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#80

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:03 pm

Anajmi,

Scroll up and read, I already answered you.

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#81

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:19 pm

There are plenty of amils who are as stupid as you.
But none as stupid as you. ;)

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:25 pm

Actually, the congregation prayers raises a very valid point. Is there a hadith which says that the prophet combined prayers in a congregation, other than when he had a valid reason, like being at war? Or was he always alone when he combined prayers without any reason?

Muslim,

There, I think I just answered your 'innovation' question.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#83

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:26 pm

You are the one that ran the last time we had a discussion

Oh, aren't you a cry baby. Really? What "discussion" was that? Kindly remind me. By the way, don't be offended, I normally ignore you. I normally find you boring and repetitive, and I'll probably ignore you quite a lot.

and stayed hidden like your Imam for a few months.

Really? Please educate me which imam is that? What is wrong with staying away from this message board for a few months? Its known as getting a life, you should try it some time. And remember, I was gone from this board, not creating new threads for the same topic when the going gets tough. Learn the difference.

The reason I didn't want to post anymore over here is because I got tired of the spin and stupidity displayed over here.

And moving your spin and stupidity to a different thread would make a difference exactly how?

please do not force me into replying to your idiotic posts.

Its entirely up to you if you want to post or not. How am I forcing you exactly?

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#84

Unread post by porus » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:28 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
Actually, the congregation prayers raises a very valid point. Is there a hadith which says that the prophet combined prayers in a congregation, other than when he had a valid reason, like being at war? Or was he always alone when he combined prayers without any reason?

Muslim,

There, I think I just answered your 'innovation' question.
Another stupidity. Why would a witness to prophet reporting a hadith of him praying choose not to pray with him? If some one saw him , it was always a congregational prayer.

Muslim
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#85

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:36 pm

Hmm, maybe, according to Bukhari, a few of the 'honorable' companions were standing next to the Prophet and dutifully recording his actions while he was praying on his own. Then when the Prophet was done, they appointed one of their own and formed their own "jamaa" to finish the prayer.

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#86

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:50 pm

Hmm, maybe the question I asked was not answered as always.

Hmm, the fact that these congregational prayers at times of war have been recorded probably did not occur to either of these idiots.

Hmm....

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#87

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:52 pm

Oh, aren't you a cry baby. Really? What "discussion" was that? Kindly remind me. By the way, don't be offended, I normally ignore you. I normally find you boring and repetitive, and I'll probably ignore you quite a lot.
I would really love for you to do that right now. Please.. pretty please??

anajmi
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#88

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:56 pm

By the way, can the tag team please post the hadith of the prophet (all of them if possible) about combining prayers?

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#89

Unread post by porus » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:59 pm

anajmi,

Do you know of a hadith in which Prophet is asked why he combined prayers. And what was his answer?

And you did not answer. How do you know that Prophet Ali prayed separate prayers more often than they combined them?

Do you also know when the times for the prayers of ahl-al-sunna wereactually fixed as they are now?

porus
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Re: Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

#90

Unread post by porus » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:00 am

I meant Prophet and Ali.