Evil Deeds

[Conscíous]

Truth, Lies and Self-Deception

None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves.
Published on November 30, 2008 by Dr. Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D.

Folie a deux is an idiomatic French expression meaning "craziness of two." This fascinating syndrome is referred to diagnostically in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV-TR as Shared Psychotic Disorder, one of several types of psychosis. How common is this condition, what causes it, and what can it teach us about the nature and perils of self-deception?

A delusion is, by definition, a psychotic symptom: a fixed, false, irrational conviction not comporting with objective reality but clung to vehemently nonetheless. Shared Psychotic Disorder refers to the onset of such a delusional state of mind in someone as a consequence of close relationship with another person already suffering from psychosis. Yes, in this sense, psychosis can be communicable. This relatively rare mental disorder illustrates two vital truths: Psychosis--contrary to the conventional mainstream view--is most often not merely the manifestation of biochemical aberration or a "broken brain," but a fundamentally psychological phenomenon. And, as such, it demonstrates the dangerous degree to which the human mind is capable of massive self-deception. It proves the awesome power of psychology.

None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves. Such self-deception, which in its most extreme and pathological forms we deem delusional, is much more pervasive than most imagine. Consider the ordinary example of some heated conflict with a spouse, lover, relative or close friend. How is it that after the fact, each participant can have a completely contradictory version of what happened? Objectively speaking, first A happened, then B occurred, then C was said, D followed, etc. But what if the objective facts or our own behavior don't comport well with how we see ourselves? We distort the facts to support our particular point of view and to sustain our beliefs about the kind of person we are or want to be. When the objective facts threaten the ego and its integrity, we experience what social psychologists call "confirmation bias," a kind of cognitive dissonance known more recently as "Morton's Demon." We dismiss certain facts incompatible with our myth of ourselves in favor of other less threatening and more corroborative ones. We twist the truth. And we become convinced of the veracity of this twisted truth. And we do all this unconsciously. We don't even know we're doing it. This goes beyond mere "cognitive distortion," resulting in a radical rewriting of history and reality for the purpose of preserving our precious self-image or persona. In its most extreme form, such self-deception can lead to certain delusional beliefs symptomatic of psychosis. This illustrates clearly the powerful unconscious cognitive component of psychotic disorders of various kinds.

Take the current Casey Anthony case (see my previous post). Casey Anthony is charged with the first-degree murder of her missing two-year-old daughter, Caylee. From the start, Casey has denied any culpability, claiming steadfastly that her daughter was abducted by her babysitter. Is this the objective truth? Or is it a lie? If it is a lie, is it a conscious lie or an unconscious one? In other words, does Casey know she's lying? Or does she actually believe the lie? If she turns out to be completely convinced that the lie is true, is she really lying? Or is she telling the truth as she sees it? If the latter turns out to be the case, then Casey could be considered delusional. From a forensic psychology perspective, this could conceivably become a key component of her legal defense.

But what of Casey's parents, especially her mother, Cindy Anthony? Both seem convinced that Casey did not harm their granddaughter and is telling authorities the truth. Is this a conscious show of support and solidarity for their daughter, an effort to protect her from abandonment and prosecution? Are they lying? Do they speak of Casey's innocence outwardly but inwardly believe in her guilt? Or are they lying to themselves? Denial is a potent form of self-deception, an unconscious psychological defense mechanism designed to ward off unacceptable or inconvenient truths. Could Casey Anthony's parents be, perhaps like her, so deeply in denial that they have introjected their daughter's delusional belief about what happened, becoming enmeshed in a folie a trois?

While such cases are extreme, this sort of symbiotic dynamic is present in most relationships to some extent, with partners regularly entering into and supporting the subjective reality of the other. Even when that necessitates deceiving themselves to do it. Evidence of this can be commonly seen in co-dependent relationships in which the severity of abusive behavior or substance abuse or mental illness in one person is minimized by the other. This insidious self-deception occurs not only in couples, but in families, friendships, groups, religious cults, political parties and entire countries. Cognitive dissonance leads us to disregard or negate all that could contradict our cherished self-image or insult our personal or collective narcissism. So the truth we see is highly selective, serving to reinforce primarily our experience of ourselves as good, kind, honest, religious, spiritual, loving, etc. Or, in some cases, confirmation bias or Morton's Demon can even lead to the rejection of positive qualities which seem incompatible with one's deeply entrenched negative view of oneself, thus destructively perpetuating it.

Interestingly, when the individuals in a folie a deux are eventually separated, the person who adopted the other's delusional beliefs typically no longer exhibits psychotic symptoms, while the original and more dominant delusional partner (the "inducer" or "primary case") remains psychotic. Why is that? It is due partially to the fact that the person who takes on another's delusional system is somewhat more psychologically intact compared to the inducer to begin with. Therefore, when removed from the delusional inducer's direct influence, they no longer fully partake in nor endorse his or her distorted subjective reality. Indeed, they may have passively or even lovingly joined with the other for the sake of solidarity and support in his or her delusional version of reality precisely so as not to abandon or be abandoned by the other. A concrete illustration of this dynamic can be seen in cults of various kinds, in which passive followers fanatically internalize the charismatic leader's grandiose and paranoid delusions. Think Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden and others. If and when susceptible followers leave the cult, these symptoms tend to diminish over time.

In truth, we deceive ourselves about a great many matters, from bad behavior, to how we feel, to the ever present existential fact of death. Such self-deception is fundamentally related to Freud's broad conception of the unconscious--the unknown aspects of our psyche--and specifically to Jung's notion of the shadow: those unacceptable traits and tendencies in ourselves we hide from both others and ourselves. This very capacity to deny our own selfishness, fears, cruelty and complicity in evil-- unconsciousness-- is itself a treacherous sort of self-deception. Which is why growing gradually more conscious during the course of psychotherapy can be a shocking, painful and sobering process. C. G. Jung noted the therapeutic importance of consciously tolerating the "tension of opposites" we today term "cognitive dissonance," and that such unadulterated confrontation with the truth about oneself is almost always initially experienced as an insult to the ego--a devastating blow to our narcissism. No wonder we so fervently resist this process. It takes considerable courage and commitment to be brutally honest with oneself. But it is precisely this willingness to stop our chronic self-deception and face the truth that finally sets us free.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evi ... -deception

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. boom.

can you please request your friend Dr. Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D, to conduct a similar study on abde dawoodi bohras?

i am willing to pay for his time and research.

[Conscíous]

I wish, I knew such people

The first thought that hit me after reading this was about all those abdes that come here to defend their master, at what degree, are they self-delusional and how much are they self-aware of this ??

[ghulam muhammed]

The first thought that hit me after reading this was about all those abdes that come here to defend their master, at what degree, are they self-delusional and how much are they self-aware of this ??

Is Stephen Diamond's work a part of the sabak curriculum ?? Then how will the abdes be aware of it ?

[Conscíous]

As Stephen Diamond's says;"It takes considerable courage and commitment to be brutally honest with oneself. But it is precisely this willingness to stop our chronic self-deception and face the truth that finally sets us free." and my guess is, not every bohra has that willingness

[Conscíous]

QUATTRONE & TVERSKY’S EXPERIMENT

People lie all the time even to themselves and surprisingly, it does work! This is the finding of the Quattrone and Tversky social psychology experiment that was published in the Journal of Personality and Psychology.

Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth or lack of truth so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception. (Wikipedia)

Everyone is guilty of self-deception especially in the occasion where we don’t end up getting what we wanted. We tend to rationalize ourselves and tell ourselves that what we instead got is better than what we originally wanted anyway and then we learn to settle. Sometimes it can be as obvious and direct as this, but there are also times when we do it to ourselves unknowingly and without even being aware of it.

Quattrone and Tversky further explored this phenomenon of self-deception in their classic social psychology experiment in 1984. It was then published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

Method

The researchers recruited a total of 38 student respondents who were informed that they were to participate in a study about the “psychological and medical aspects of athletics”.

The truth was, that the researchers were tricking the participants into thinking that the span of time that they will be able to submerge their arms in cold water tells them their current health status. This consequently allows researchers to find out how readily people deceive themselves to achieve more desirable results for themselves.

First, subjects were instructed to submerge their arms into cold water for as long as they could stand.

Next, the subjects were given some other tasks to do to make them think they were really involved in a study about athletics. They were asked to do some bike exercises, among others.

The subjects were then given a short lecture regarding life expectancy and how this relates to the type of heart each person has. They were informed of the two types of heart namely:

Type I heart which is associated with poorer health, shorter life expectancy and more vulnerable to heart disease.

Type II heart, which is associated with better heath, longer life expectancy and lower risk of contracting heart disease.

Half were told that people with Type II hearts are expected to have increased tolerance to cold water after exercise, while the remaining half were told it decreased tolerance to cold water. But these are not factually right anyway and were just made up lies to see whether participants will be deceiving themselves to think this way or not.

Subjects where then asked to submerge their arms again into the cold water for as long as they could stand.

Results

The results acquired by Quattrone and Tversky showed that the experimental manipulation was effective. For the first half whom was told that cold tolerance is healthy, subjects were able to submerge their arms in cold water much longer the second time compared to the first time they did. At first, they averaged at 35 seconds but during the second attempt, they lasted longer than 45 seconds.

On the contrary, the other half whom was told that cold tolerance is unhealthy, correspondingly lessened their submersion time. On the average, when they first submerged their arms in cold water, they lasted for around 45 seconds. But after being informed about their heart type, their time went down on an average of 35 seconds.

Apparently, as results show, when people thought higher cold tolerance meant healthier heart, they held their arms underwater much longer and those who believed the reverse did otherwise and felt they couldn’t any longer tolerate the cold.

To further test whether subjects were self-deceiving, they were asked whether they intentionally held their arms underwater longer or shorter as it indicates the health of their heart. Among the 38 subjects, 29 denied they did and 9 confessed indirectly. Those 9 justified that the water had changed temperature, thus explaining the change, but of course the water just had the same temperature all throughout the experiment.

They were then asked whether they really do believe that they had a healthy heart or not. More than half of the subjects that denied or 60% of them thought they had the healthier type of heart. While among the 9 confessors, only 20% thought they had the healthier heart. This only means that the deniers were more likely to be really deceiving themselves because they thought that the test was really telling them that they had a healthy heart.

The subjects confused diagnostic effect with a causal one. Submerging their arms for more or less time in the cold water is diagnostic of whether you have a healthy heart or not and does not cause a change in your heart’s type. With this in mind, the subjects behaved as if they can actually change their heart’s type.

Conclusion

The experiment shows the different graduations of self-deception. At the highest level, people tend to imbibe the deception and therefore think and act as though their incorrect belief is completely true, totally ignoring and rejecting any incoming hints from reality.

http://wikisum.com/w/Quattrone_and_Tver ... tingencies

http://www.experiment-resources.com/self-deception.html

[Conscíous]

The Total Perspective Vortex

Posted by Christopher S. Putnam on 14 June 2007

Most people think of the “mentally disordered” as a delusional lot, holding bizarre and irrational ideas about themselves and the world around them. Isn’t a mental disorder, after all, an impairment or a distortion in thought or perception? This is what we tend to think, and for most of modern psychology’s history, the experts have agreed; realistic perceptions have been considered essential to good mental health. More recently, however, research has arisen that challenges this common-sense notion.

In 1988, psychologists Shelly Taylor and Jonathon Brown published an article making the somewhat disturbing claim that positive self-deception is a normal and beneficial part of most people’s everyday outlook. They suggested that average people hold cognitive biases in three key areas: a) viewing themselves in unrealistically positive terms; b) believing they have more control over their environment than they actually do; and c) holding views about the future that are more positive than the evidence can justify. The typical person, it seems, depends on these happy delusions for the self-esteem needed to function through a normal day. It’s when the fantasies start to unravel that problems arise.

Consider eating disorders, for instance. It’s generally been believed that an unrealistically negative body image is an important factor in the self-abuse that characterizes anorexia and bulimia. A 2006 study at the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands, however, came to a very different conclusion. Here, groups of normal and eating disordered women were asked to rate the attractiveness of their own bodies. They were then photographed from the neck down, and panels of volunteers were brought in to view the photos and rate the women’s appearances objectively. The normal women, as it turned out, evaluated themselves much more positively than the panels did, while the self-ratings of the eating disordered women were in close agreement with the objective ratings. The eating disordered subjects, in other words, had a more realistic body image than the normal women. However, it is important to note that the study was based upon the broad concept of “attractiveness” rather than body weight specifically—while the eating disordered women may have rated themselves poorly because they felt “fat,” their weight was a controlled variable and not the basis of the volunteers’ assessments.

Studies into clinical depression have yielded similar findings, leading to the development of an intriguing, but still controversial, concept known as depressive realism. This theory puts forward the notion that depressed individuals actually have more realistic perceptions of their own image, importance, and abilities than the average person. While it’s still generally accepted that depressed people can be negatively biased in their interpretation of events and information, depressive realism suggests that they are often merely responding rationally to realities that the average person cheerfully denies.

Those with paranoid disorders can sometimes possess a certain unusual insight as well. It has often been asserted that within every delusional system, there exists a core of truth—and in their pursuit of imagined conspiracies against them, these individuals often show an exceptionally keen eye for the real thing. People who interact with them may be taken aback as they find themselves accused of harboring some negative opinion of the person which, secretly, they actually do hold. Complicating the issue, of course, is the fact that if the supposed aversion didn’t exist before, it likely does after such an unpleasant encounter.

As one might imagine, these issues present some problems when it comes to treatment. How does one convince a depressed person that “everything is all right” when her life really does suck? How does one convince an obsessive-compulsive patient to stop religiously washing his hands when the truth of what gets left behind after “normal” washing should be enough to make any sane person cringe? These problems put therapists in the curious position of teaching patients to develop irrational patterns of thinking—patterns that help them view the world as a rosier place than it really is. Counterintuitive as it sounds, it’s justified because what defines a mental disorder is not unreasonable or illogical thought, but abnormal behaviour that causes significant distress and impairs normal functioning in society. Treatment is about restoring a person to that level of normal functioning and satisfaction, even if it means building cognitions that aren’t precisely “rational” or “realistic.”

It’s a disconcerting concept. It’s certainly easier to think of the mentally disordered as lunatics running about with bizarre, inexplicable beliefs than to imagine them coping with a piece of reality that a “normal” person can’t handle. The notion that we routinely hide from the truth about ourselves and our world is not an appealing one, though it may help to explain the human tendency to ostracize the abnormal. Perhaps the reason we are so eager to reject any departure from this fiction we call “normality” is because we have grown dependent on our comfortable delusions; without them, there is nothing to insulate us from the harsh cold of reality.

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-tota ... ve-vortex/

[tml87]

Question: Why is this post titled "Evil Deeds?" I'm interested to know.

[Conscíous]

The author of the first article, Dr Stephen Diamond has a blog called "Evil Deeds", hpp:/.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/truth-lies-and-self-deception..
Author of Evil Deeds
Evil Deeds began almost four years ago as a blog about forensic psychology, anger, violence and the destructiveness of human evil. It has since evolved to more broadly include other related and relevant topics such as mental health, spirituality, psychotherapy, psychopathology, depth psychology, existential therapy, creativity, and the archetypal quest for meaning and purpose.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds

If you can think of better title, then please do go ahead.. I'm sure Admin is open for suggestion and I surely don't mind

[tml87]

Thanks

I was not questioning the suitability of the title, merely its origin. Although I will confess that I originally thought you were going to start a discussion on the nature of sinfulness.

[humanbeing]

Hi Boom

An Insightful article you have shared. Very good read!

In spite of visible wrongdoings of leadership, bohra mumin who have realized the fallacy of the system are helpless to raise their objection at family levels. Objecting at community level is far fetched courage.

Many bohra mumins get helpless at the hands of their own family members. Struggle against such organized system becomes very difficult as the basic family emotional support gets shaken and disoriented. We live a small ordinary life with caring family attached to the ritual and routine of this system.

One need not be a rocket scientist or religious pundit to recognize or realize the fallacy and deceit in the system. I always had this hunch that all is not right as projected until recently when I discovered wrong doings with obvious facts, logic and reasoning. But when such logic or reasoning I shared with my family, I m labelled non believer, cursed and disoriented. I have come under hawk’s eye. My family is worried at my attitude towards community. This has caused pain and negative environment in my house. Hostility and non acceptance of my thoughts. I may be young and strong enough to face such resistance, but my parents are not. We are product of our experiences. My parents may not have been reasonable or logical to understand the fallacies of the system and accept to live in delusional justifications.

Many a times, its love which binds us from speaking up. Life becomes a hell for one and his / her family who speaks up. I stopped debating and arguing with my family members over issues in our community. Today even my silence is not accepted and I m labelled as cold deceiver.

It may be thoughtful to fight the system. One is struggling against wrongdoing strangers, courage & determination may increase to seek justice and accountability. But when the struggle is against your own family member; an aging father, worried mother or angered siblings it gets difficult to face this emotional trauma. We don’t spend our lives fighting with wrongdoers’ everyday. But we live with love and acceptance of our family members.

More I find about the corruption in the system, more apprehensive I m getting to be a part of it. My isolation from objectionable practices causes worry and grief to my family members. I’m stuck in this vicious cycle of pretend and truth, love and hate.

To see them suffer and worry within themselves makes this struggle more difficult and painful. Not everyone is smart, intellectual and convincing specially when one is talking against such organized and well established system.


A platform such as this forum gives an opportunity to speak up and share the corrupt practices of the system, hoping that it initiates some reform. But its reach is limited to few.

[asad]

Human Being,

Dilemma of Bohra cant be written in better words, you have written it from heart it will surely resonate in hearts of all of us who feel it day in and day out. Its very tough almost impossible to even talk about anything against clergy its almost talking against the faith, you cease to exist as a mumin or even a muslim. a very simple word for anyone who talks a little bit agaist Clergy is Muddai or Anti. One word and you are a pariah for society and even your family. Your close friends and life time acquaintances will either shun you completely or will make it a point not to be seen with you in public. Family members dont have a choice but seeing their pleas one will go back to usual bohra way of life. Clergy knows this very very well and plays on the weakness of us.

[DMY]

I fully share ur predicament HB. Not everybody can do what anajmi did and i respect him for that.

[Conscíous]

Hey HB,,,
It's good to see you back I totally agree with your sentiment about how helpless we towards our own familymembers and the emotional suffering and distress it causes.. But what I fail to understand is you seem to be so aware of the corruption within the community but so naive and ignorant about those small things as "white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida, beard" which is creating division, not only amongst ourself but also from the rest of the human race.. When you can't see your own delusion, how will mange to make others be aware of those getting deceived ??

[Conscíous]

Not everybody can do what anajmi did and i respect him for that.

Haha.. yes, it takes alot of courage to runaway

[DMY]

I fully share ur predicament HB. Not everybody can do what anajmi did and i respect him for that.

Haha.. yes, it takes alot of courage to runaway

I dont't think he ran away, probably stood up to it and was/would have been eventually "excommunicated". In that case what choice would one have? Either suck it up and get back in line or show the finger and leave. The establishment is too powerful to be challenged by one or a couple of individuals.

[Conscíous]

Haha.. So he stood up, got kicked and turned into a Sunni right ??

please stop, because this is starting to get hilarious

[humanbeing]

Hi Boom
With reference to your opinion :

But what I fail to understand is you seem to be so aware of the corruption within the community but so naive and ignorant about those small things as "white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida, beard" which is creating division, not only amongst ourself but also from the rest of the human race.. When you can't see your own delusion, how will mange to make others be aware of those getting deceived ??

According to my POV I take "white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida” as an uniform to be worn when one attends religious gatherings, prayers in masjids etc. I have expressed this POV earlier on another thread. My explanation for accepting such attire is optimistic uniformity amongst bohra mumins at religious occasions of bohra traditions. Personally I don’t wear this attire everywhere I go. I dress accordingly to the place and occasion I m attending.

At the same time, I believe in freedom of choice. Let individual decide what he / she wishes to wear or present themselves in. There are variety of people walking the streets representing their culture, fashion, taste or obligation. Divisions are created in our minds and not by attire we present.

When I dress in Saya Kurta, I don’t become super human. I remain a mortal. Its just a dress like any other apparel, meant for specific purpose.

Also "white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida” is not copyright property of Kothar, anyone is free to wear it or not wear it as per their choice. But with regards to compulsory attire at Dargahs, masjids, religious gatherings. I don’t see anything wrong in it. Just like we have school uniforms, factory uniforms, corporate professionals have dress code, doctors have aprons, cooks have chef hat etc which is acceptable and causes no harm, then why not embrace the idea of saya kurta rida topi.

The idea of white saya kurta rida topi is liked by masses. Its liked so people have accepted it heartily. Some object some don’t, part of life. No big deal, no corruption of faith, no deceit intended.

There are more serious issues plaguing the community than worry over dress code. Issues such as misuse of funds, discriminatory treatment of people, glorification of “royal family”, etc.

We “commoners” across all religions are subjugated / oppressed / manipulated in various ways by anyone who is in power be it political, religious, social or emotional. There is injustice everywhere. Some we fight, some we resent, some we accept, some we give up !!

[anajmi]

"running away" isn't the term I would choose, unless my backside is itching for a kick from anajmi. "running away" doesn't mean anything. According to this idiotic logic, every person who refuses to do sajda to the Dai is running away. Boom is a coward who will moan and whine to bend before the Dai just like he did when he was kicked out of this board. Now he is everywhere and causes me to puke everytime I read his idiotic posts.

[Al Zulfiqar]

on the one hand, it is enlightening to read the candid account of struggles and challenges faced when any bohra decides not to accept blindly all the diktats of the dai's establishment, on the other hand it is painful to see how people back down on the pretext of various excuses: family, parents, routine and the comfort it brings, society, friends, traditions, beliefs, fear of isolation and humiliation, fear of the unknown, fear of becoming a sinner with unseen consequences, etc etc.

these very same conditions and scenarios prevailed at the time of the prophet muhammad and every prophet before him. did they back down? did they compromise in the face of extreme persecution, abuse, violence, cruelty and degradation? agreed, we are not prophets and do not have their divine purpose or resolve. but yes, we all share the same emotions and fears and psychology of the so-called ignorants and jaahils of their age, inspite of our superior education, awareness and technology. basically we remain the same inside, cowards who take comfort by huddling in masses, waiting for someone else, some reckless but brave fool, to make the first move. if that daring fool succeeds, we will look hither and thither, left and right, and if we see some signs of positive movement from others making bold to join him, then we will cautiously take a step too deriving comfort in numbers.

but if that brave hero is immediately picked off like a sitting duck and shot down, then we thank our lucky stars that we were wise not to link our destinies with his, and deep in our hearts praise ourselves for our discretion and common sense. then we gloat over our good fortune for not having been rash and joining such an idiot.

despite the tremendous advancements in human civilisation and knowledge, we still remain under the skin, the same creatures as our ignorant ancestors when it comes to confronting dilemmas and dogmas of the type that bohras face now. this applies not just to bohras unfortunately, but to any grouping or community, whether based on religion, culture, race, nationality or beliefs.

it will always remain an universal truth and reality that anyone who dares to act and think differently from the group will be reviled, isolated and spurned, not because that person is hated and hateful in himself, but because he dares to be different and thus somehow belittles the beliefs held so dearly by the majority. it is like confronting a most ugly monster with a mirror and forcing him to see his despised visage.

[Muslim First]

I fully share ur predicament HB. Not everybody can do what anajmi did and i respect him for that.

Br Anajmi reverted to Islam. He can tell us if his extended family is still in fold or not. What sort of social pressure they are going thru? What does he do for social life. He hinted that he still have some Bohra friends.

I know a Bohra ph d who has reverted and brings his family to Islamic center, They socialize with local Muslims, I see him some events at my Bohra friends house
.

[Conscíous]

My explanation for accepting such attire is
optimistic uniformity amongst bohra mumins at religious occasions of bohra traditions.

It is obvious you are not aware of this, but this is how cultish people think and I really liked how you managed to combine religious occasions and bohra traditions to justify your delusion ...
It is your optimism which is deceiving you my friend and it's so doleful, that you can't see beyond the little cult, that subsist within you

At the same time, I believe in freedom of choice. Let individual decide what he / she wishes to wear or present themselves in. There are variety of people walking the streets representing their culture, fashion, taste or obligation.

You are just deceiving yourself because WE both know, such freedom does not exist in our community..

Divisions are created in our minds and not by attire we present.

Here is another of those twisted and false statements, which is there to only deceive yourself and your kind.. Divisions are created in our mind and influenced by attire we present.. and I can even backup my statement with literature and studies that is widely accepted by most psychologist .. Can you replicate?? I don't think so..

Also "white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida” is not copyright property of Kothar, anyone is free to wear it or not wear it as per their choice.

Have you purposively forgotten to mention beard in your equation??

But with regards to compulsory attire at Dargahs, masjids, religious gatherings. I don’t see anything wrong in it.

It's because you can't see the bigger picture beyond your cultist thoughts.. Do you agree, that the mosque ( house of Allah (swt) should be open to ANYONE.?? and that includes ( progressive bohra, christians, jews, hindus etc)
If you disagree, than you are just another cult member and are not aware of it and if you agree, then tell me, how will this people manage to get in the mosque if they don't have a beard, white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida?? And since Allah (swt) has not mentioned any of those in the holy Quran, then why do you want to implement such foolish rules??

Just like we have school uniforms, factory uniforms, corporate professionals have dress code, doctors have aprons, cooks have chef hat etc which is acceptable and causes no harm, then why not embrace the idea of saya kurta rida topi.

I'm seriously starting to doubt your intelligence bro.. I've told you this before and I'll repeat it again.. In my part of the world children don't have school uniforms so I can't understand why I have to be forced to dress up for others, when I'm only there to reinforce my faith??
-Factory workers = So they don't destroy there private clothes at work..
-Aprons doctor's wear don't count but the nurses on the other hand have a uniform, but that is so they don't care contagious disease out side the hospital..
-Cooks and chef hat = It's because if the hygiene..
None of your reasons can justify your delusion my friend.. And the more you try, the more ridiculous it sounds..

The idea of white saya kurta rida topi is liked by masses. Its liked so people have accepted it heartily. Some object some don’t, part of life. No big deal, no corruption of faith, no deceit intended.

"For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances, as though they were realities, and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are."~ Niccolo Machiavelli

There are more serious issues plaguing the community than worry over dress code. Issues such as misuse of funds, discriminatory treatment of people, glorification of “royal family”, etc.

I find nothing more serious then having my identity and freedom taken away and those issues that you are so concerned about, are secondary problems that have little value in my life..

[Conscíous]

"running away" isn't the term I would choose, unless my backside is itching for a kick from anajmi. "running away" doesn't mean anything.

DMY,
Look at your friend has problems explaining his terms of running-away

I wonder what "term" would suit his special case ??

[anajmi]

"kicking butt" would be appropriate. Atleast that is pretty easy in your case.

[humanbeing]

Dear Boom
I don’t wish to make it a personal argument, however I will respond to your accusations of me being delusional.

It is obvious you are not aware of this, but this is how cultish people think and I really liked how you managed to combine religious occasions and bohra traditions to justify your delusion ...
It is your optimism which is deceiving you my friend and it's so doleful, that you can't see beyond the little cult, that subsist within you

It’s a blunt accusation you have thrown towards me. Which I humbly do not accept. With regards to combining religious occasions with bohra traditions. The attire is not objectionable as per tenets of Islam. There are many bohra mumins who wear Saya Kurta Rida Topi and Beard and still object to wrong practices in the community, not raising their voice publicly is another argument on another thread. I don’t see or feel any exploitation wearing such attire to such occasion or events which are bohra centric.

You are just deceiving yourself because WE both know, such freedom does not exist in our community..

I agree with you, such freedom does not exist in our community. And in my POV I have a valid explanation. Earlier when compulsory attire was not in place. I used to observe bohra mumins visitng masjids and dargahs in any dress they were into. Be it men or women, there was no conformity in dressing, Shabby shirts, ragged trousers, messily dressed or inappropriate attire. Intentionally or unintentionally. Now don’t jump to generalized conclusions. It’s a subjective situation.

Here is another of those twisted and false statements, which is there to only deceive yourself and your kind.. Divisions are created in our mind and influenced by attire we present.. and I can even backup my statement with literature and studies that is widely accepted by most psychologist .. Can you replicate?? I don't think so..

Our dressing sense or attire does not fully represent our thoughts or prejudices we cultivate in our hearts. Don’t make life so complicated! dear boom ! relax. You make your own identity ! don’t be so vunerable and scared. Prejudice, fear, discrimination, hatred dwells in our minds. Doesn’t matter what we wear, we still end up practicing such evil thoughts. To reduce or eradicate such evil is in power of our minds, not in our attire !

Have you purposively forgotten to mention beard in your equation??

Yes ! I intended to keep the beard out of this arguments, as one who wishes to keep it, carries the beard everywhere all the time as long as one keeps it. So its more like a permanent fixture.

It's because you can't see the bigger picture beyond your cultist thoughts.. Do you agree, that the mosque ( house of Allah (swt) should be open to ANYONE.?? and that includes ( progressive bohra, christians, jews, hindus etc)
If you disagree, than you are just another cult member and are not aware of it and if you agree, then tell me, how will this people manage to get in the mosque if they don't have a beard, white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida?? And since Allah (swt) has not mentioned any of those in the holy Quran, then why do you want to implement such foolish rules??

Yes Boom ! Masjid shall be open to anyone who wish to pray to Allah / God / Parmeshwar / Rab / Khuda. Be it Muslim or non muslims, does that happen in real world ? your world or my world ?
Hey Boom, you are making absolute and generalized statements. Compulsory attire to visit masjids and dargahs is made for the members of the community who also enjoy other facilities provided by organized system against a payment. But its about bringing in uniformity amongst bohra mumins.
Dear Boom, does Quran object from dressing in such attire ! is this attire inappropriate or objectionable ? Do you really follow Holy Quran to the absolute perfection? When certain arrangement or agreement does not suit to your taste, you are all worked up and ready to use Quran as per your taste and fashion (please note my argument revolves around topic of attire only)

I'm seriously starting to doubt your intelligence bro.. I've told you this before and I'll repeat it again.. In my part of the world children don't have school uniforms so I can't understand why I have to be forced to dress up for others, when I'm only there to reinforce my faith??
-Factory workers = So they don't destroy there private clothes at work..
-Aprons doctor's wear don't count but the nurses on the other hand have a uniform, but that is so they don't care contagious disease out side the hospital..
-Cooks and chef hat = It's because if the hygiene..
None of your reasons can justify your delusion my friend.. And the more you try, the more ridiculous it sounds..

Ahha ! dear boom, now I understand your POV, you mentioned your part of world !! So all your POVs are subject to what you have experienced perceived through your upbringing, environment, culture and peers around you. Well you are not wrong then.
However this forum is not meant exclusively for your part of world ! It’s a wonderful forum where people from all parts of world come and express their POV and learn more about DBs and other issues. So dear Boom may be we can learn a lot about each other’s world and then make generalized statements.
F Y I ; In my part of world, we have school uniforms up till high school / even in higher studies in some cases.
I have stated earlier reasons, logic and idea for compulsory attire for masjids, dargahs or any common socio-religious gathering. I can summarize into following :
To bring positive uniformity amongst bohra mumins
To discourage messily, shabbily dressing
To discourage inappropriate / provocative dressing
This attire is not obligated on non bohras visitors to dargahs and social gatherings as they are not willing members of the community or system. However such numbers are very less to be regulated.
Rules are made and they are broken, rules are made for good and are misused too. We cannot take mindset, prejudice of few and term it as subjugation or oppression of masses.
I conveniently dress into saya kurta and topi when I visit masjids, dargahs or religio-social gatherings, and conveniently change into another attire appropriate to another occasion such as party, meeting or cultural event.
I wear gujrati dress when I go for gujju festivals, I wear shorts when I go to beach, I wear smart casual when I hangout with friends. I wear business suit when I go to office as prescribed in the dress code policy of the firm. And I wear saya kurta topi when I go to masjids. I don’t feel subjugated, I don’t feel oppressed. Because I carry my identity in my personality, in my speech, in my behvaior, in my nature. I m a good human being no matter what I wear !

"For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances, as though they were realities, and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are."~ Niccolo Machiavelli

A wonderful quote !! what do you learn from it !! try and read it from different POV.

I find nothing more serious then having my identity and freedom taken away and those issues that you are so concerned about, are secondary problems that have little value in my life..

Exactly ! Attire is a secondary non issue you shall not worry about. You make your identity, not your attire ! your attire is temporary. No one is taking your freedom away. No one is taking your identity. Your identity in larger context, the big picture of your identity, is what you are made of !! your thoughts, your attitude towards life, your capability to make a difference to this world, your qualification, your job, business, your achievements, your goals, your conduct is your identity.

[Maqbool]

Earlier when compulsory attire was not in place. I used to observe bohra mumins visitng masjids and dargahs in any dress they were into. Be it men or women, there was no conformity in dressing, Shabby shirts, ragged trousers, messily dressed or inappropriate attire. Intentionally or unintentionally. Now don’t jump to generalized conclusions. It’s a subjective situation.

Dear HB
Have you ever noticed the conditions of some mumenins who wear saya, kurta and topi? There are people who does not care to dress clean. Some mumenins wear kurta, Saya and topi is so dirty you will not like to seat next to him.. Like wise the trouser or shirts worn by good mannered persons will always be good and cleaned.

The rule is made in our community is only to keep ego of the ali vakar class, wants to show their power and nothing else.

[Conscíous]

Yo HB,
I have a very aggressive way of debating just to eliminate all the sweet talk and the all bullshit and try to stay to the point.. I apologize if this is getting to personal and you don't have to answer me back.. But if you do, than answer them all.. thanks

It is obvious you are not aware of this, but this is how cultish people think and I really liked how you managed to combine religious occasions and bohra traditions to justify your delusion ...
It is your optimism which is deceiving you my friend and it's so doleful, that you can't see beyond the little cult, that subsist within you

t’s a blunt accusation you have thrown towards me. Which I humbly do not accept. With regards to combining religious occasions with bohra traditions. The attire is not objectionable as per tenets of Islam.

That doesn't mean people have the right innovate and implement such bizarre attire on others?? But if one is cult-material like you, they wouldn't mind to follow this innovation and force them upon others.. You are just another cult-member my friend who has no concept on human rights..
I wonder, what the Quran has to say about ; "forcing upon others, against their own will"?? And if you think I using the Quran for my own benefit then tell me what does the law of your country say about " forcing upon others, against their own will??

There are many bohra mumins who wear Saya Kurta Rida Topi and Beard and still object to wrong practices in the community, not raising their voice publicly. I don’t see or feel any exploitation wearing such attire to such occasion or events which are bohra centric.

Those people you have described above are in the same boat as you,,,. They have given away their freedom and identity and become chickens running around, with no head, pointing fingers everywhere, when we all know, who is to be blamed for all our misery..

You are just deceiving yourself because WE both know, such freedom does not exist in our community..

I agree with you, such freedom does not exist in our community. And in my POV I have a valid explanation. Earlier when compulsory attire was not in place. I used to observe bohra mumins visitng masjids and dargahs in any dress they were into. Be it men or women, there was no conformity in dressing, Shabby shirts, ragged trousers, messily dressed or inappropriate attire. Intentionally or unintentionally. Now don’t jump to generalized conclusions. It’s a subjective situation.

You should careless what impression they leave on your mind, because those people are NOT there for YOU and you have NO right to judge others and implement those ridiculous attire on others .. They are there for the sack of Almighty Allah (swt)..And If it's so painful for you to accept others coming to the mosque, dressed in differently, then why don't you stop this suffering by pocking your own eyes for a start, since the problem lies within you and not us??

Here is another of those twisted and false statements, which is there to only deceive yourself and your kind.. Divisions are created in our mind and influenced by attire we present.. and I can even backup my statement with literature and studies that is widely accepted by most psychologist .. Can you replicate?? I don't think so..

Our dressing sense or attire does not fully represent our thoughts or prejudices we cultivate in our hearts.

So nice of you to look-away from your original statement which was ; "Divisions are created in our minds and not by attire we present" and come with a modified one huh?? You can't hide from whom you are and you are only deceiving yourself

Don’t make life so complicated!

It's your kind of thinking and those cultish rules you want to implement which is complicating life..

Have you purposively forgotten to mention beard in your equation??

Yes ! I intended to keep the beard out of this arguments, as one who wishes to keep it, carries the beard everywhere all the time as long as one keeps it. So its more like a permanent fixture.

Whom are you kidding with " one who wishes to keep it" huh?? We know such wishes of choice are not the true reality in our community because we have people like you sitting high above, imposing on others how they should live, behave, eat, wear etc.. (cult mentality )

It's because you can't see the bigger picture beyond your cultist thoughts.. Do you agree, that the mosque ( house of Allah (swt) should be open to ANYONE.?? and that includes ( progressive bohra, christians, jews, hindus etc)
If you disagree, than you are just another cult member and are not aware of it and if you agree, then tell me, how will this people manage to get in the mosque if they don't have a beard, white saya kurta, pehran, topi, feta, paagri, rida?? And since Allah (swt) has not mentioned any of those in the holy Quran, then why do you want to implement such foolish rules??

Yes Boom ! Masjid shall be open to anyone who wish to pray to Allah / God / Parmeshwar / Rab / Khuda. Be it Muslim or non muslims, does that happen in real world ? your world or my world ?

Yes it does, but not in our bohra cult, which is your world..

Hey Boom, you are making absolute and generalized statements. Compulsory attire to visit masjids and dargahs is made for the members of the community who also enjoy other facilities provided by organized system against a payment. But its about bringing in uniformity amongst bohra mumins.

Oh like a members-club huh?? I hope you know, this is how cult's operate..

Dear Boom, does Quran object from dressing in such attire ! is this attire inappropriate or objectionable ? Do you really follow Holy Quran to the absolute perfection? When certain arrangement or agreement does not suit to your taste, you are all worked up and ready to use Quran as per your taste and fashion (please note my argument revolves around topic of attire only)

What I follow should not your concern because that is between Him and Me,, but rather who has given you the authority to tell me how to dress, in the mosque, when I'm their to reinforce my faith in Him ?? And you have still not answered my original question about how will those non muslim enter the bohra Mosque since they don't meet the requirements?? And if you say that we have a different set of rules for them, then you just another hypocrite like the rest of those brainwashed abdes..

I'm seriously starting to doubt your intelligence bro.. I've told you this before and I'll repeat it again.. In my part of the world children don't have school uniforms so I can't understand why I have to be forced to dress up for others, when I'm only there to reinforce my faith??
-Factory workers = So they don't destroy there private clothes at work..
-Aprons doctor's wear don't count but the nurses on the other hand have a uniform, but that is so they don't care contagious disease out side the hospital..
-Cooks and chef hat = It's because if the hygiene..
None of your reasons can justify your delusion my friend.. And the more you try, the more ridiculous it sounds..

Ahha ! dear boom, now I understand your POV, you mentioned your part of world !! So all your POVs are subject to what you have experienced perceived through your upbringing, environment, culture and peers around you. Well you are not wrong then.
However this forum is not meant exclusively for your part of world ! It’s a wonderful forum where people from all parts of world come and express their POV and learn more about DBs and other issues. So dear Boom may be we can learn a lot about each other’s world and then make generalized statements.
F Y I ; In my part of world, we have school uniforms up till high school / even in higher studies in some cases.
I have stated earlier reasons, logic and idea for compulsory attire for masjids, dargahs or any common socio-religious gathering. I can summarize into following :
To bring positive uniformity amongst bohra mumins
To discourage messily, shabbily dressing
To discourage inappropriate / provocative dressing
This attire is not obligated on non bohras visitors to dargahs and social gatherings as they are not willing members of the community or system. However such numbers are very less to be regulated.
Rules are made and they are broken, rules are made for good and are misused too. We cannot take mindset, prejudice of few and term it as subjugation or oppression of masses.
I conveniently dress into saya kurta and topi when I visit masjids, dargahs or religio-social gatherings, and conveniently change into another attire appropriate to another occasion such as party, meeting or cultural event.
I wear gujrati dress when I go for gujju festivals, I wear shorts when I go to beach, I wear smart casual when I hangout with friends. I wear business suit when I go to office as prescribed in the dress code policy of the firm. And I wear saya kurta topi when I go to masjids. I don’t feel subjugated, I don’t feel oppressed. Because I carry my identity in my personality, in my speech, in my behvaior, in my nature. I m a good human being no matter what I wear !

So according to you, our dear prophet (pbuh) was ignorant for not to think of all this but our super intelligent Dai (tus) and people like you are good at filling all the gapes with this profound innovation of white saya kurta, rida and all the other bullshit which is dividing us from the rest of the human race??

Do you even know the social problem the bohras have in the western world?? This social differences is making it much harder to integrated in the western world. And in some parts of the world, bohras have become victim of theft, robberies and even murder because we're so easy identifiably.. In some parts of the world, bohra women can't even drive a car, because they get hassled by the police.. And this is just the tip of the iceberg my friend..

[humanbeing]

Dear Boom

Your response is aggressive, your language is brash and your mentality is self centered. I have expressed my POV as per my experience and understanding. I do not represent Kothar.

As you mentioned dilemmas in your part of world in dressing in such attire causes problem is due to biased perception of western media and its influence on people.

Even though I can express my POV to all the aggressive accusations you have thrown at me. I wish not to continue argue with you. I was looking forward to a good debate, not a brash argument.

Just on a parting note, please go through all your postings and observe your opinions, POVs and expression of thoughts.

[Conscíous]

HEy HB,
I apologize again but this is how I roll and stick by the diagnosis I've given you.. I know it can be a painful awakening to find out things about oneself and I have only good intentions for doing this to you.. I'll leave you with this thought ; Anyone who considers him/herself "humane" would never think of forcing upon others against their own free-will, which YOU are ready to do..

[Conscíous]

How to Spot Evil?

Catch evil before evil catches you.
Published on September 23, 2011 by Leon Pomeroy, Ph.D. in Beyond Good and Evil

You've learned your ABCs and 123s and now the time has come to think about values and what values strongly guide the direction you take in life. A basic value is to protect yourself against harm. A primary harm: Falling into the trap of evil. To protect yourself from evil, let's look into the mind of evil through the lenses of axiological science.

The new science of values is called axiological science (Greek, axios meaning value, ology meaning study of). By understanding the values between nice and nasty, right and wrong, and good and evil, you give yourself a cognitive chest of tools to look into the mind and brain of evil. This understanding is your best defense against evil.

The mind of evil often reflects an ideology with chameleon and destructive dimensions. You see the chameleon on the surface with oozing smiles, words of hope, and sometimes a projection of great things to come that stir a sense of pride for being part of a greater cause. The destructive values lie beneath the surface awaiting discovery.

Beneath the surface, there is no regard for the individual and his or her uniqueness. There is a devaluation of others, contempt, depersonalization and dehumanization. There is an absence of empathy.

Through the eyes of evil, the world is filled with fools to be manipulated and exploited. Thus, this person cannot afford to tell the truth about the underlying plan. Lies, deceptions, half-truths are presented as facts and reality to mask the destructive core.

To start your lessons on spotting and protecting yourself from evil, consider the following:

1. Our values apply to the perception of people, achievements, and ideologies and ideas. These categories of thinking with values blend and direct what we think, feel, and do. This is a values framework for understanding not only what makes you tick but what also gives you an important angle for understanding how other think, do, and feel.
2. Evil is a distortion of normal human desires and values. You'll commonly find this distortion expressed through an ideology that disguises no capacity to care for people. The connection to people is through an ideology that favors evil. People are seen as mere objects or things.
3. You gain clarity by paying close attention to those who would come at you armed with pure ideology. They may create an illusion of love and acceptance, but in the end the goal is to subvert the individuality and uniqueness of you by brainwashing you into thinking through the prism of their ideology.

In life it's often more important to ask the right questions than to get answers. When faced with a question of evil, there are three questions
(1) What is the ideology that this person peddles?
(2) What is the most realistic outcome?
(3) Who gains the most through executing the ideology?
(4) What is the worst-case scenario?

An evil outcome is the common result of buying into a depersonalizing ideology that is made far more important than people or achievements.

Dr. Leon Pomeroy

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bey ... tle-raw%5D