Just watching the closing ceremony for the Olympics, I see how the Russians are proudly show-casing their culture and I am wondering “what is Dawoodi Bohra culture? Do we have any literature, music, songs, soldiers, philosophers, adventurers, scientists, freedom fighters (for India), to be proud of? Yes we had some philanthropists like Karimjee Jivanjee family, Sir Adamjee Pirbhai and who else?
Agreed we are a very small community, but then how about Parsees|? Is it because we are afraid of the mullas (or shall i say we are cowards)?
Bohra culture
Re: Bohra culture
here is one of the answers to your why from Mr. abdul Kalam azad
The Hindu Archives Maulana Azad made extensive observations on the education system and syllabi in the context of his own education in the late 19th Century. Picture shows Azad (centre) with Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Sayed Mahmud, and Kailash Nath Katju in 1955.
TOPICS
human interest
people
religion and belief
islam
Maulana Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the contemporary rigid and combative Islam
It was on this day in 1958 that Maulana Abul Kalam Azad passed away. It was not merely the death of an extraordinary human being but also the death of an idea that sparkled for a few decades — the idea of an undivided India where Muslims could live happily with the Hindu majority. Muslims made India their home centuries ago, and according to Azad, they had a huge stake in the idea of India. However, Azad’s idea received a jolt in 1947 as the violence of partition ravaged India. Azad went on to live for another ten years, helping in healing and rebuilding the scarred and bruised new India.
Azad lived many lives. Some of them are well known, yet some have remained mysteriously unknown. Not much is known or written about them in public. There was a decade in his early days when he was disenchanted with the inherited faith and had to brazen out some difficult and uncomfortable questions about Islam.
Even before arriving at this situation, he was a rebel as a child who disagreed with his father’s faith, got enamoured of Sir Syed’s modernism that his father Maulvi Khairuddin hated, and decided to learn sitar on the quiet though his father did not approve of music. His dissent against the inherited belief went even further — he became an atheist (dehri) and reposed faith only in materialism and rationalism. Religion was reduced merely to a superstition. From the age of 14 to the mid-20s, he just put up a facade of belief in public but inwardly remained completely without faith.
A different Islam
This short phase in his life was ephemeral as he soon got back to Islam, yet his Islam remained qualitatively different. And it is on this count that Azad stands distinctly apart from everyone else. He was himself conscious of the fact that not many people went along with him when he said: “In religion, in literature, in politics, on the paths of philosophy, wherever I went, I went alone. The caravans of the times did not support me on any of my journeys.”
Azad emphasised all his life on the original spirit of engagement with the Quranic text, which was available to all believers of Islam. He refused to accept the canonised Islam; instead he called for independent reasoning or ijtihad to interpret the faith. He also warned against reading more than what was intended to be conveyed in the Quran. This sounds so prophetic in the contemporary context where Islam is invoked by many to speak what they want the Book to speak.
Ghubar-i-Khatir is a collection of letters written in the Ahmednagar Fort prison during three years of incarceration between 1942-45, where Maulana Azad opens his mind to some very unconventional and mundane issues. For example, one of the letters deals with his lifelong passion for tea. He began his day, he writes, with a freshly brewed cup of white Chinese jasmine tea that he consumed mostly alone as no one else could appreciate its taste. Most others were addicted to a concoction mixed with milk and sugar which the British had told them was tea. Only Jawaharlal Nehru, he wrote, used to have black tea, but not the real Chinese tea. In another letter he writes about happiness. He cites a Chinese person saying: “Who is the wisest man? The answer is: He who is the happiest.” Interestingly, he derides those who believe that men of religion and philosophy need to look serious and morose. This, he says, cannot be a pre-condition for respectability and learning.
Reforms in education
Azad also comments upon the education system and syllabi in the context of his own education in late 19th Century India, particularly the Islamic madrasas. He wrote: “It was an outdated system of education which had become barren from every point of view — teaching methods defective, worthless subjects of study, deficient in the selection of books, defective way of reading and calligraphy.” If this is what Azad felt about the Islamic madrasas more than hundred years ago, we can well imagine the urgency and necessity of radical reform in the contemporary system of education.
He is critical of even Al-Azhar University and calls its syllabus poor. Expressing a sense of relief at the fact that he did not have to depend on these madrasas for his early education, he writes: “Just imagine if I had stopped there and had not gone in search of new knowledge with a new curiosity, what would be my plight! Obviously my early education would not have given me anything except a stagnant mind, a total stranger to reality.”
The present day Islamic enthusiasts need to learn a lesson or two from the insights of a scholar like Azad — both from his writings against conformism and conservatism and his questioning of his own family’s intellectual and religious inheritance. He writes further in another letter: “Nothing is greater hindrance to the growth of a mind than its conservative beliefs. No other power binds it as do the shackles of conformity…At times so strong is the grip of inherited beliefs that education and environment also cannot loosen it. Education would give it a new paint but never enter the inner belief structure where the influence of race, family and centuries old traditions continue to operate.”
We need to reflect upon and recall Maulana Azad’s precious and mostly forgotten inheritance, which was based on free thinking and pluralism. In particular, Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the contemporary rigid and combative Islam.
That is why, at times like these, when religious fault lines threaten the very idea of India, we must pay heed to Azad’s inheritance.
(S. Irfan Habib holds the Maulana Abul Kalam Azad chair at Delhi’s National University of Educational Planning and Administration.)
Keywords: Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, Partition, Maulvi Khairuddin, Islamic ideologies, Quranic text, Ijtihad
View comments(16)Post CommentRELATED NEWS
‘The Great Akbar’ of Independence struggleNovember 8, 2013
A time to recall the stalwartsNovember 6, 2013
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It is noteworthy that India is home to one of the largest Islam
following population in the world, and the country holds the
uniqueness of holding the 'unity in diversity' thread so staunchly
that it is exemplary to the world today (barring few instances of self
interest induced unfortunate events).
An average Indian Muslim today, I believe, is one of the most secular,
tolerant, rational followers pursuing his daily life balancing the
world and 'hereafter'. His India is no different from what the
majority feels; the nation is his sweet home and he is proud indeed.
As put forth by Mr Habib, it is time that rationalism reign and that
Islam meaning 'Peace' in its true spirit is practiced and recognized,
and that no force should make the Muslim bereft of his 'belongingness'
and 'pride' for his country.
Kudos to the makers of the constituation and the spirit of Indians.
from: Danish Mohammad
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 15:51 IST
Vida: please read the book where the song Vandemataram
appears... The context is not really great!!!
from: sam
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 12:01 IST
Only when people use their reason and contemplate Islam "within" the manhaj of salaf, Islamic knowledge becomes worthwhile. Azad is and was the best example of this. Only then knowledge can change our lives. Otherwise we become more indifferent to Islamic knowledge and abide it as some form of rituals imposed upon us. This is against the core of Islam where reason and critical thinking goes hand in hand..
Kudos to the writer and Hindu to bring the oblivious roles of Azad to forefront!!
from: Beegum Raziya Sulthana
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 11:41 IST
" Muslims made India their home centuries ago" extremely controversial
statement and mother of all identity crisis. If they came and made
india their home (but how...forcefully?). Muslims should learn that
they are converted hindus and whatever liberal values they still
cherish is because of that inheritance. Azad was patriot and had the
foresight. Whatever he predicted about feudal quarrelling islamic
state known as pakistan came true. Today congress and all political
parties has alienated herself from Azad and because of vote bank
politics are reluctant to ban any education system and schools and
colleges based on religious names and orthodox irrelevant teaching.
Our political will to fight religious symbolism and fanaticism will
slowly talibanize our country.
from: Sukant
Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:54 IST
Abdul Kalam's importance and views have been pushed under the carpet
just like what happened to Patel, Bose, Gokhale,Rajaji etc, etc. After
independence Indians were brain washed into believing that only Gandhi,
Jinnah and Nehru were the freedom fighters. More books about the great
legends need to be published so that people can understand what the
quality and nature of these people were.
from: Sri
Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:39 IST
Very well written article. I hope people will understand the ideas of great man Maulana Azaad and will lift up intellectually . Kudos to the author and The Hindu.from: Manpinder Singh Saini Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:15 IST
Great man he was .An evidence to support the efforts of forefathers
,present and the future generation for the inclusion of secularism in
the constitution . But currently in India right wing forces want
Indian muslims to prove their patriotism and love for the nation ; if
we passed Subramaniam Swamy would want us indian muslims to sign on a
document mentioning that our previous faith was hinduism and congrats
we are Indian.
"Sunni muslims take their orders from Saudis" What a stupid
allegation .I being a sunni muslim myself who loves india , has to
prove the braindead volunteers of Bhagwa Troll Army that i am not
their Muslim Counter Part .
Rise of Leaders like Owaisi is also responsible for fueling Made In
Rss conspiracy theories against muslims.Bhagwa fanboys support Togadia
and likes but will do their best to blur the lines between the
ideology of Owaisi and Mualana Hazrat Abul Kalam Azad.
He is very much a forgotten figure now and very few indians really
know about his work.from: AMIR Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 16:14 IST
The problem is that Muslims owe loyalty only to the Koran and their religion. Hence wherever they are in the minority they are not true loyalists. In India they refuse to sing or recognise 'Vande Mataram'. The same applies in the West where the sizeable Muslim minority despise the western culture and ethos even though this was their reason for migrating there. Radicalism and fundamentalism in the Muslims is increasing and has reached a dangerous level. from: Vida Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 15:41 IST
There is nothing called accomodative islam.The current day islam is guided by Saudi arabia projecting Sunni group and Iran projecting Shia group.Indian muslims come under one of these groups.While these two groups are forced to live peacefully in India, it is not the case in west asia where they kill each other.Worst is the case of Pakistan where Shias are ruthlessly eliminated.
People like Moulana Azad are rare and silent breed today and one should know all muslims follow only quran, whether you are moderate or fundamentalist.from: reddy Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 13:18 IST
It is not Azad's inheritance alone that the Congress and Indians have
forgotten. Indians seem to have forgotten the inheritance of Mahatmaji
and Jawaharlal -- why, the inheritance of our anti-imperialist movement.
And what is thrust upon the Indians is the culture of servility to
colonialism of the Sonia-Manmohan Singh Congress and of the Advani-Modi
BJP! What a fall, my countrymen!from: Mohanraj Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 11:46 IST
I wish there would have been more Azads than Bukharis in this country !from: Manish Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 10:48 IST
i think it would help the indian muslims, who carry the additional
burden of proving their loyalty to the nation, to take on the path of
the great Maulana Azad instead of giving in to the temptations of
radicalism in order to counter the growing influence of the right wing
groups, more crucially when religion is getting mixed with politics in
India in an unprecedented mannerfrom: nandhakumar Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 10:16 IST
Dear Readers
Need of the hour is not what Muslims do and follow in India its our
cities and corrupt political system getting worst day by day and
making us and future generations the most vulnerable in the World. The
traffic and the pollution levels have sky rocketed and politician's
faces on every wall and lamp post all over the Chennai city has added
an intolerable sight on our roads instead of posting their faces these
politicians should at least post some moral and healthy posters on
their behalf like follow the traffic laws that's patriotism and so
forth. from: nash Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 09:33 IST
This is really an unknown aspect of Maulana's personality. Undoubtedly,
his thoughts are not propagated what it should be. The concepts he put
forward to the community to ponder on could have brought the changes
that could improve the lives of muslims and upgrade the standard of
living. It is unfortunate that muslims in India are living in an
unexplainable state of confusion with mental block. The writings and
articles like this may help people to at least put some time aside to
think if we are really following what we are supposed to. from: Shamim Anwar Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 09:10 IST
Looks like Maulana was very apologetic for being a Muslim.from: Tipu Qaimkhani Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 05:56 IST
Habib says " In particular, Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the
contemporary rigid and combative Islam". As a layman I see only value of historical
commentary in what Habib says. The real question is what Azad must have done to make
his "more accommodative" Islam stick and decisively prevail over those who made and are
making the "contemporary rigid and combative Islam". Habib can lament about past but we
need pointers to what happened that should not have happened and how to prevent it from
continue to happen.from: Seshadri Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 05:03 IST
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The Hindu Archives Maulana Azad made extensive observations on the education system and syllabi in the context of his own education in the late 19th Century. Picture shows Azad (centre) with Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Sayed Mahmud, and Kailash Nath Katju in 1955.
TOPICS
human interest
people
religion and belief
islam
Maulana Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the contemporary rigid and combative Islam
It was on this day in 1958 that Maulana Abul Kalam Azad passed away. It was not merely the death of an extraordinary human being but also the death of an idea that sparkled for a few decades — the idea of an undivided India where Muslims could live happily with the Hindu majority. Muslims made India their home centuries ago, and according to Azad, they had a huge stake in the idea of India. However, Azad’s idea received a jolt in 1947 as the violence of partition ravaged India. Azad went on to live for another ten years, helping in healing and rebuilding the scarred and bruised new India.
Azad lived many lives. Some of them are well known, yet some have remained mysteriously unknown. Not much is known or written about them in public. There was a decade in his early days when he was disenchanted with the inherited faith and had to brazen out some difficult and uncomfortable questions about Islam.
Even before arriving at this situation, he was a rebel as a child who disagreed with his father’s faith, got enamoured of Sir Syed’s modernism that his father Maulvi Khairuddin hated, and decided to learn sitar on the quiet though his father did not approve of music. His dissent against the inherited belief went even further — he became an atheist (dehri) and reposed faith only in materialism and rationalism. Religion was reduced merely to a superstition. From the age of 14 to the mid-20s, he just put up a facade of belief in public but inwardly remained completely without faith.
A different Islam
This short phase in his life was ephemeral as he soon got back to Islam, yet his Islam remained qualitatively different. And it is on this count that Azad stands distinctly apart from everyone else. He was himself conscious of the fact that not many people went along with him when he said: “In religion, in literature, in politics, on the paths of philosophy, wherever I went, I went alone. The caravans of the times did not support me on any of my journeys.”
Azad emphasised all his life on the original spirit of engagement with the Quranic text, which was available to all believers of Islam. He refused to accept the canonised Islam; instead he called for independent reasoning or ijtihad to interpret the faith. He also warned against reading more than what was intended to be conveyed in the Quran. This sounds so prophetic in the contemporary context where Islam is invoked by many to speak what they want the Book to speak.
Ghubar-i-Khatir is a collection of letters written in the Ahmednagar Fort prison during three years of incarceration between 1942-45, where Maulana Azad opens his mind to some very unconventional and mundane issues. For example, one of the letters deals with his lifelong passion for tea. He began his day, he writes, with a freshly brewed cup of white Chinese jasmine tea that he consumed mostly alone as no one else could appreciate its taste. Most others were addicted to a concoction mixed with milk and sugar which the British had told them was tea. Only Jawaharlal Nehru, he wrote, used to have black tea, but not the real Chinese tea. In another letter he writes about happiness. He cites a Chinese person saying: “Who is the wisest man? The answer is: He who is the happiest.” Interestingly, he derides those who believe that men of religion and philosophy need to look serious and morose. This, he says, cannot be a pre-condition for respectability and learning.
Reforms in education
Azad also comments upon the education system and syllabi in the context of his own education in late 19th Century India, particularly the Islamic madrasas. He wrote: “It was an outdated system of education which had become barren from every point of view — teaching methods defective, worthless subjects of study, deficient in the selection of books, defective way of reading and calligraphy.” If this is what Azad felt about the Islamic madrasas more than hundred years ago, we can well imagine the urgency and necessity of radical reform in the contemporary system of education.
He is critical of even Al-Azhar University and calls its syllabus poor. Expressing a sense of relief at the fact that he did not have to depend on these madrasas for his early education, he writes: “Just imagine if I had stopped there and had not gone in search of new knowledge with a new curiosity, what would be my plight! Obviously my early education would not have given me anything except a stagnant mind, a total stranger to reality.”
The present day Islamic enthusiasts need to learn a lesson or two from the insights of a scholar like Azad — both from his writings against conformism and conservatism and his questioning of his own family’s intellectual and religious inheritance. He writes further in another letter: “Nothing is greater hindrance to the growth of a mind than its conservative beliefs. No other power binds it as do the shackles of conformity…At times so strong is the grip of inherited beliefs that education and environment also cannot loosen it. Education would give it a new paint but never enter the inner belief structure where the influence of race, family and centuries old traditions continue to operate.”
We need to reflect upon and recall Maulana Azad’s precious and mostly forgotten inheritance, which was based on free thinking and pluralism. In particular, Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the contemporary rigid and combative Islam.
That is why, at times like these, when religious fault lines threaten the very idea of India, we must pay heed to Azad’s inheritance.
(S. Irfan Habib holds the Maulana Abul Kalam Azad chair at Delhi’s National University of Educational Planning and Administration.)
Keywords: Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, Partition, Maulvi Khairuddin, Islamic ideologies, Quranic text, Ijtihad
View comments(16)Post CommentRELATED NEWS
‘The Great Akbar’ of Independence struggleNovember 8, 2013
A time to recall the stalwartsNovember 6, 2013
More In: Op-Ed | Opinion
67 Ads by Google
Top 10 No Contract Phones
Bestselling No Contract Phones Clearance Sale On Now!
dealhunter.us
Alzheimer's Trial
New research study for Alzheimer's Find out more here.
clinlife.com/Alzheimer's_research
Comments(16)
Recommended
Post a comment
It is noteworthy that India is home to one of the largest Islam
following population in the world, and the country holds the
uniqueness of holding the 'unity in diversity' thread so staunchly
that it is exemplary to the world today (barring few instances of self
interest induced unfortunate events).
An average Indian Muslim today, I believe, is one of the most secular,
tolerant, rational followers pursuing his daily life balancing the
world and 'hereafter'. His India is no different from what the
majority feels; the nation is his sweet home and he is proud indeed.
As put forth by Mr Habib, it is time that rationalism reign and that
Islam meaning 'Peace' in its true spirit is practiced and recognized,
and that no force should make the Muslim bereft of his 'belongingness'
and 'pride' for his country.
Kudos to the makers of the constituation and the spirit of Indians.
from: Danish Mohammad
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 15:51 IST
Vida: please read the book where the song Vandemataram
appears... The context is not really great!!!
from: sam
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 12:01 IST
Only when people use their reason and contemplate Islam "within" the manhaj of salaf, Islamic knowledge becomes worthwhile. Azad is and was the best example of this. Only then knowledge can change our lives. Otherwise we become more indifferent to Islamic knowledge and abide it as some form of rituals imposed upon us. This is against the core of Islam where reason and critical thinking goes hand in hand..
Kudos to the writer and Hindu to bring the oblivious roles of Azad to forefront!!
from: Beegum Raziya Sulthana
Posted on: Feb 23, 2014 at 11:41 IST
" Muslims made India their home centuries ago" extremely controversial
statement and mother of all identity crisis. If they came and made
india their home (but how...forcefully?). Muslims should learn that
they are converted hindus and whatever liberal values they still
cherish is because of that inheritance. Azad was patriot and had the
foresight. Whatever he predicted about feudal quarrelling islamic
state known as pakistan came true. Today congress and all political
parties has alienated herself from Azad and because of vote bank
politics are reluctant to ban any education system and schools and
colleges based on religious names and orthodox irrelevant teaching.
Our political will to fight religious symbolism and fanaticism will
slowly talibanize our country.
from: Sukant
Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:54 IST
Abdul Kalam's importance and views have been pushed under the carpet
just like what happened to Patel, Bose, Gokhale,Rajaji etc, etc. After
independence Indians were brain washed into believing that only Gandhi,
Jinnah and Nehru were the freedom fighters. More books about the great
legends need to be published so that people can understand what the
quality and nature of these people were.
from: Sri
Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:39 IST
Very well written article. I hope people will understand the ideas of great man Maulana Azaad and will lift up intellectually . Kudos to the author and The Hindu.from: Manpinder Singh Saini Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 17:15 IST
Great man he was .An evidence to support the efforts of forefathers
,present and the future generation for the inclusion of secularism in
the constitution . But currently in India right wing forces want
Indian muslims to prove their patriotism and love for the nation ; if
we passed Subramaniam Swamy would want us indian muslims to sign on a
document mentioning that our previous faith was hinduism and congrats
we are Indian.
"Sunni muslims take their orders from Saudis" What a stupid
allegation .I being a sunni muslim myself who loves india , has to
prove the braindead volunteers of Bhagwa Troll Army that i am not
their Muslim Counter Part .
Rise of Leaders like Owaisi is also responsible for fueling Made In
Rss conspiracy theories against muslims.Bhagwa fanboys support Togadia
and likes but will do their best to blur the lines between the
ideology of Owaisi and Mualana Hazrat Abul Kalam Azad.
He is very much a forgotten figure now and very few indians really
know about his work.from: AMIR Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 16:14 IST
The problem is that Muslims owe loyalty only to the Koran and their religion. Hence wherever they are in the minority they are not true loyalists. In India they refuse to sing or recognise 'Vande Mataram'. The same applies in the West where the sizeable Muslim minority despise the western culture and ethos even though this was their reason for migrating there. Radicalism and fundamentalism in the Muslims is increasing and has reached a dangerous level. from: Vida Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 15:41 IST
There is nothing called accomodative islam.The current day islam is guided by Saudi arabia projecting Sunni group and Iran projecting Shia group.Indian muslims come under one of these groups.While these two groups are forced to live peacefully in India, it is not the case in west asia where they kill each other.Worst is the case of Pakistan where Shias are ruthlessly eliminated.
People like Moulana Azad are rare and silent breed today and one should know all muslims follow only quran, whether you are moderate or fundamentalist.from: reddy Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 13:18 IST
It is not Azad's inheritance alone that the Congress and Indians have
forgotten. Indians seem to have forgotten the inheritance of Mahatmaji
and Jawaharlal -- why, the inheritance of our anti-imperialist movement.
And what is thrust upon the Indians is the culture of servility to
colonialism of the Sonia-Manmohan Singh Congress and of the Advani-Modi
BJP! What a fall, my countrymen!from: Mohanraj Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 11:46 IST
I wish there would have been more Azads than Bukharis in this country !from: Manish Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 10:48 IST
i think it would help the indian muslims, who carry the additional
burden of proving their loyalty to the nation, to take on the path of
the great Maulana Azad instead of giving in to the temptations of
radicalism in order to counter the growing influence of the right wing
groups, more crucially when religion is getting mixed with politics in
India in an unprecedented mannerfrom: nandhakumar Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 10:16 IST
Dear Readers
Need of the hour is not what Muslims do and follow in India its our
cities and corrupt political system getting worst day by day and
making us and future generations the most vulnerable in the World. The
traffic and the pollution levels have sky rocketed and politician's
faces on every wall and lamp post all over the Chennai city has added
an intolerable sight on our roads instead of posting their faces these
politicians should at least post some moral and healthy posters on
their behalf like follow the traffic laws that's patriotism and so
forth. from: nash Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 09:33 IST
This is really an unknown aspect of Maulana's personality. Undoubtedly,
his thoughts are not propagated what it should be. The concepts he put
forward to the community to ponder on could have brought the changes
that could improve the lives of muslims and upgrade the standard of
living. It is unfortunate that muslims in India are living in an
unexplainable state of confusion with mental block. The writings and
articles like this may help people to at least put some time aside to
think if we are really following what we are supposed to. from: Shamim Anwar Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 09:10 IST
Looks like Maulana was very apologetic for being a Muslim.from: Tipu Qaimkhani Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 05:56 IST
Habib says " In particular, Azad’s Islam was much more accommodative than the
contemporary rigid and combative Islam". As a layman I see only value of historical
commentary in what Habib says. The real question is what Azad must have done to make
his "more accommodative" Islam stick and decisively prevail over those who made and are
making the "contemporary rigid and combative Islam". Habib can lament about past but we
need pointers to what happened that should not have happened and how to prevent it from
continue to happen.from: Seshadri Posted on: Feb 22, 2014 at 05:03 IST
Show all comments
Your Name:
email:
Make a comment
characters left
Place Holder div!Do not Remove or captcha will break in ie7 ajax mode Type Here:
1. Comments will be moderated
2. Comments that are abusive, personal, incendiary or irrelevant cannot be published.
3. Please write complete sentences. Do not type comments in all capital letters,
or in all lower case letters, or using abbreviated text.
(example: u cannot substitute for you, d is not 'the', n is not 'and').
4. We may remove hyperlinks within comments.
5. Please use a genuine email ID and provide your name, to avoid rejection.
Re: Bohra culture
Thank you, bro. think. Very interesting article and also the readers' comments.
I think you have put your finger on our problem, narrow-mindedness, too much of ignorance in religion due to lack of proper, general education.
I think you have put your finger on our problem, narrow-mindedness, too much of ignorance in religion due to lack of proper, general education.
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ghulam muhammed
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Re: Bohra culture
Bohras are over 1 million and Parsees are not even 1 lakh in numbers yet we see them excel in almost ever field :canadian wrote:Agreed we are a very small community, but then how about Parsees|?
Eye Surgeon - Dr.Dastur.
Homeopath - Dr.Wadia.
Gynaecologist - Dr.Soonawala
Industrialist - Tatas, Godrej, Dubash.
Lawyers - Nani Palkhiwala, Fali Nariman, Soli Sorabji.
Army - General Sam Maneckshaw.
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There are many more.
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Qutbi-Hero
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- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
You're confusedcanadian wrote:Just watching the closing ceremony for the Olympics, I see how the Russians are proudly show-casing their culture and I am wondering “what is Dawoodi Bohra culture? Do we have any literature, music, songs, soldiers, philosophers, adventurers, scientists, freedom fighters (for India), to be proud of? Yes we had some philanthropists like Karimjee Jivanjee family, Sir Adamjee Pirbhai and who else?
Agreed we are a very small community, but then how about Parsees|? Is it because we are afraid of the mullas (or shall i say we are cowards)?
Firstly, you're mistaking National Culture with a specific Community Culture - for the most part Bohras are Indians, therefore our culture is based on our Indian roots... with Kothar modifications lol!
Secondly, Culture is a different thing to Achievement - as far as this goes, Bohras are among the most educated and prosperous communities on Earth, behind only the Ismailis and ofcourse the Jews.
Thirdly, apart from the great Mr Engineer... is there anybody exceptional within the Progressives worldwide? The answer is no.
Therefore, in your opinion... does this mean the even smaller Reformist Community are afraid (of what?) and cowards?
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
There are plenty of Bohras doing extremely well, all over the world!ghulam muhammed wrote:Bohras are over 1 million and Parsees are not even 1 lakh in numbers yet we see them excel in almost ever field :canadian wrote:Agreed we are a very small community, but then how about Parsees|?
Eye Surgeon - Dr.Dastur.
Homeopath - Dr.Wadia.
Gynaecologist - Dr.Soonawala
Industrialist - Tatas, Godrej, Dubash.
Lawyers - Nani Palkhiwala, Fali Nariman, Soli Sorabji.
Army - General Sam Maneckshaw.
Father of Civil Aviation - JRD Tata.
Music - Freddie Mercury.
Films - Sohrab Modi.
There are many more.
Here in London Jamaat, every thaal you sit on will be full of Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen.
We also have more than our fair share of Industrialists (the biggest of which has joined the Qutbis = Kickass!) and I'm sure there have even been some Bohras in Showbiz over the years too.
The idea that Bohras are not a highly successful community is laughable - as always, thank you for the hearty LOL!
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Actually it is you who has provided a hearty laugh ! There is no dearth of successful people in every community but show me a few bohras who can be actually compared to the likes of successful Parsees. Even 50 Khorakhiwalas cannot make 1 Tata or Godrej and the same goes well with people from other professions. BTW, don't compare apples with oranges because the number of internationally acclaimed people in Bohras are almost negligible as compared to Parsees although Parsees are not even 10% in numbers as compared to Bohras. lolQutbi-Hero wrote:The idea that Bohras are not a highly successful community is laughable - as always, thank you for the hearty LOL!
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Not just Parsees... like I said, other small communities like the Jews and the Ismailis are miles ahead of every other, including us! Aga Khan Zindabad!ghulam muhammed wrote:Actually it is you who has provided a hearty laugh ! There is no dearth of successful people in every community but show me a few bohras who can be actually compared to the likes of successful Parsees. Even 50 Khorakhiwalas cannot make 1 Tata or Godrej and the same goes well with people from other professions. BTW, don't compare apples with oranges because the number of internationally acclaimed people in Bohras are almost negligible as compared to Parsees although Parsees are not even 10% in numbers as compared to Bohras. lolQutbi-Hero wrote:The idea that Bohras are not a highly successful community is laughable - as always, thank you for the hearty LOL!
However, my point that Bohras are a highly successful community is true and accurate, especially in the West... what point are you trying to make exactly Bro?
That we should all become Parsi because they are even more successful than Bohras lol?
PS: Are you an internationally acclaimed industrialist GM? No... I guess that means you're the reason why Parsees beat Bohras! Man, it's all your fault lol!
PPS: Thankfully Mr Noon is making sure some Ghulams actually are internationally acclaimed industrialists - phew! I guess you're off the hook dude!
Re: Bohra culture
Qutbi-Hero wrote:You're confusedcanadian wrote:Just watching the closing ceremony for the Olympics, I see how the Russians are proudly show-casing their culture and I am wondering “what is Dawoodi Bohra culture? Do we have any literature, music, songs, soldiers, philosophers, adventurers, scientists, freedom fighters (for India), to be proud of? Yes we had some philanthropists like Karimjee Jivanjee family, Sir Adamjee Pirbhai and who else?
Agreed we are a very small community, but then how about Parsees|? Is it because we are afraid of the mullas (or shall i say we are cowards)?
Firstly, you're mistaking National Culture with a specific Community Culture - for the most part Bohras are Indians, therefore our culture is based on our Indian roots... with Kothar modifications lol!
Secondly, Culture is a different thing to Achievement - as far as this goes, Bohras are among the most educated and prosperous communities on Earth, behind only the Ismailis and ofcourse the Jews.
Thirdly, apart from the great Mr Engineer... is there anybody exceptional within the Progressives worldwide? The answer is no.
Therefore, in your opinion... does this mean the even smaller Reformist Community are afraid (of what?) and cowards?
Bhai Hero:
When you say “Bohras are among the most educated and prosperous communities on Earth”, why do I feel that you are repeating what the amils have been feeding us for ages. Please, please open your eyes and look for yourself and see how backward and poor our community is on the whole, especially in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa.
And yes, the Reformist community is small because we ARE cowards. For example, I have a very large extended family spread all over the world and I am the only one who has not given misaq to muffy camp and I have been bombarded by all of them with the same argument and same phrases, “aapne su karsu; su kaam aankhe awo chho; oonda paani ma shaa maate jawu, etc. etc. “ I have been told that because of my attitude, my siblings, my children, my nephews, nieces will have to suffer. No one has told me, “ yes, good, you should join the reformists or you are brave to ignore this stupid misaq”.
Yes, we have Indian roots but we think of ourselves as abde Syedna; we are not free Indians. In everything, we ask his permission. A son wants to be a musician, an actor, and we tell him it is not allowed in our community, what will people say. A girl wants to be an engineer and when her orthodox family asks maulana’s razaa, she is advised to take home science or to be a doctor –does not matter whether she has aptitude for it or not.
We cannot even give a name of our choice to our child. Every time a child is born in my family, my relatives and amils have asked us to get the name from aqa maula. I have been cursed for not asking maula to give names for my children and grandchildren- my answer has been ‘in my Gujarati culture, a faiji names the child’
We do not mix with other Indians, let alone other races and nationalities. We are so tied up with our majlises, darees and jamans that we do not think of outside world.
Re: Bohra culture
Who says we do not have successful and famous people among Bohra
Do you know Shaikh Shaukat Sarkar?
Do you know Shaikh Shaukat Sarkar?
Re: Bohra culture
You cannot call every tom dick and harry doctors, lawyers and other professionals as visionary, there are millions of other such professionals from other races/religions. Visionaries are like Tatas, Godrejs, Birlas etc. There were examples in Bohras earlier such as Adamjee peerbhoy, few families in Africa that I have read about (Karimjee, Jeevanjee n likes)
Qutbi-Hero wrote: Here in London Jamaat, every thaal you sit on will be full of Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen.
We also have more than our fair share of Industrialists (the biggest of which has joined the Qutbis = Kickass!) and I'm sure there have even been some Bohras in Showbiz over the years too.
The idea that Bohras are not a highly successful community is laughable - as always, thank you for the hearty LOL!
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Please give some specific examples.Qutbi-Hero wrote:However, my point that Bohras are a highly successful community is true and accurate, especially in the West...
So after a lengthy defence you could come up with only ONE name !! I wouldn't like to discuss Ghulam Noon here because if I do so then it will be highly comfortable for you (He must be your neighbour I guess lol). I know him since he was a partner in "Royal Sweet Meat Mart" at Crawford Market, Mumbai and he has a Bohri wife in India (I think he has 2 daughters from her) and another English lady in UK !!Qutbi-Hero wrote:PPS: Thankfully Mr Noon is making sure some Ghulams actually are internationally acclaimed industrialists - phew! I guess you're off the hook dude!
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Please read as "uncomfortable"...... a typing error.ghulam muhammed wrote:comfortable
Re: Bohra culture
Cry Bohris. Why bohris always cry?
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Bhai Hero! I love it lol!canadian wrote:Bhai Hero:
In the UK Bohras are way ahead of the Sunnis and even the Brits themselves in comparison. Elsewhere in the world... Bohras as a whole, are way above average overall.When you say “Bohras are among the most educated and prosperous communities on Earth”, why do I feel that you are repeating what the amils have been feeding us for ages. Please, please open your eyes and look for yourself and see how backward and poor our community is on the whole, especially in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa.
There will always be poverty in every community, even amongst white people in mighty America which is the richest country on the planet. Even when Britain ruled half the world, it had it's fair share of poverty amongst the prosperity. In fact during the Golden Era of Islam in Arabia, they still had poverty... so judging Bohras negatively due to a small percentage being poor is pretty dumb,,, you really need to stop acting like a poor and backward person yourself dude.
Dang! Here was me thinking you guys were just lacking in ambition and aptitude lol!And yes, the Reformist community is small because we ARE cowards.
This may be happening in the Developing World but it certainly isn't in the West.Yes, we have Indian roots but we think of ourselves as abde Syedna; we are not free Indians. In everything, we ask his permission. A son wants to be a musician, an actor, and we tell him it is not allowed in our community, what will people say. A girl wants to be an engineer and when her orthodox family asks maulana’s razaa, she is advised to take home science or to be a doctor –does not matter whether she has aptitude for it or not.
In that case your family and relatives are hardcore abdes - most of us in the UK choose the names we want for our kids.We cannot even give a name of our choice to our child. Every time a child is born in my family, my relatives and amils have asked us to get the name from aqa maula.
I think they curse you because you have so many confused and distorted ideas about Islam - like praying Namaaz in English etc. Maybe they treat you like this because they've lost all respect for you.I have been cursed for not asking maula to give names for my children and grandchildren- my answer has been ‘in my Gujarati culture, a faiji names the child’
Why not? How come I mix with everyone, yet you don't? What's stopping you exactly?We do not mix with other Indians, let alone other races and nationalities.
How much influence the Kothar has on a person is entirely up to the individual - I do whatever I please, as do most of the Bohras I know... the only time they have any control is when I step in to the Masjid.We are so tied up with our majlises, darees and jamans that we do not think of outside world.
It seems the real "coward" here is you, isn't it dude... why not try and grow some balls like the Bohras in London... and also try praying Namaaz properly too as it will help you in every aspect of your life.
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Qutbi-Hero
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- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Again, I ask what point are you making?wise_guy wrote:You cannot call every tom dick and harry doctors, lawyers and other professionals as visionary, there are millions of other such professionals from other races/religions. Visionaries are like Tatas, Godrejs, Birlas etc. There were examples in Bohras earlier such as Adamjee peerbhoy, few families in Africa that I have read about (Karimjee, Jeevanjee n likes)
Just because you hate Bohras and want to believe we are uneducated losers/loosers... doesn't mean it's true (no matter how much you wish lol!)
We may not be up to the level of the Jews, Ismailis and Parsees today - but we are not far behind... and as time passes, we will easily catch up... well, the Qutbi Bohras will if not the Muffy Mob!
Also, just like I asked Bro GM... are you in any way exceptional? Are you a visionary like the magnificent Tatas? If not, why not?
It's very foolish to complain about the lack of achievement in others, when you have achieved very little yourself... don't you think dude?
Ya see, if Ratan Tata joined the forum (lol!) and said Bohras should have hundreds of Billionaire Industrialists, instead of just a few - then it would make sense and he has every right... however when any Tom, Dick, Harry like you comes along and says the same... you're actually making a criticism of yourself and how unsuccessful you are - why do that to yourself?
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Qutbi-Hero
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- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Okay, lets play a game shall we GM - I'll give an example... then you give one from your Reformist side...ghulam muhammed wrote:Please give some specific examples.
One of my fave comics is this kickass dude!
What's that GM - you don't want to play because apart from the great Mr Engineer, you don't have anybody else?
Look, I know Reformists are only small in number but so are the Parsees - in fact, according to Wikipedia, there will be only 23,000 Parsees in India by 2020. Now Humsafar says there are 5,000 Reformists in Udaipur and there must be many thousands more across India. So for sake of argument, lets say there are half as many Reformists as Parsees, therefore you guys must have half as many truly exceptional people, right? Where are they dude?
Ya know GM, I think the problem you have is that you're not particularly successful yourself and are surrounded by people who are the same... this creates deep jealousy and gives you almost tunnel-vision, as you can't see (or do your best to deny!) the brighter side of life and Bohra'ism... you need to get out of that environment so you can see the complete picture instead of just a small part...
Therefore let me give you a remedy for your affliction... get some plane tickets and travel around the world, come to the UK, then go across Europe and America etc... in fact, if you can't afford to do that, why not just go to the upmarket areas of Mumbai and count the number of Bohras you see there lol... (By the way, Saifee Mahal is in Malabar, which naturally has plenty of Bohras - I'm sure you know how expensive it is to live in that area, although I'm sure they are all losers/loosers lol!)
So, once again dude - I'm gonna ask you what point you're trying to make here... please clarify because if it's the idea that Bohras are all uneducated and penniless... then where exactly do you think the Kothar got their Billions from eh!
That's right baby... they stole it from all of us! They are rich because so many of us are doing well!
(And also because the money they steal from us should be used to help the poor Bohras we have (like every community does!) but instead is (ab)used by the Kothar to give themselves a lavish lifestyle akin to Royalty!)
What now GM... are you gonna say the Kothar have worked hard and earned all those Billions by themselves LOL!
Say whatever "uncomfortable" stuff you want about the groovy Noonster... I know he's cooler than you could ever be... and I also know, he doesn't give a shit about what you think lol!So after a lengthy defence you could come up with only ONE name !! I wouldn't like to discuss Ghulam Noon here because if I do so then it will be highly uncomfortable for you (He must be your neighbour I guess lol). I know him since he was a partner in "Royal Sweet Meat Mart" at Crawford Market, Mumbai and he has a Bohri wife in India (I think he has 2 daughters from her) and another English lady in UK !!
Oh, and his wife in the UK is Sikh, not English... a very accomplished woman in her own right, and pretty hot too when she was younger = Go Gulam!
By the way, even if she was English... why does that matter? Is racism part of the Reform Movement?
(I don't think so dude, looking at how many Samma Pux kids in the UK have run off with black and white people!)
Ya see, this is the problem with you guys when you try to criticise Bohras... you get things half right, and half wrong lol!
Why not quit talking crap about Bohras, and stay focused on crapping on the Kothar - then you'll become a Hero just like me GM!
(I know you have the potential because you are Pro-Khuzzy! This means you're not the dumbass I thought you were = the feud is over baby! Welcome to sanity my fellow Qutbi Brother lol!)
Anyway, don't duck the question dude because I'm very curious to hear your answer... why are you not a person as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata?
What is the reason for you being a mediocre nobody... like (in your opinion!) me and the rest of us good-for-nothing Bohras are lol?
Please explain in detail...
PS: The Peerbhai family could well have reached the heights of the Tata family today... if they hadn't been sabotaged by the Kothar, wouldn't you agree?
Re: Bohra culture
Qutbi-Hero wrote:
Brother Qutbi
do you really think being a Shia muslim you want to Progress up to the level of Jews Specifically ?
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Wait - you need a lot more education Mr General Motors... time for a man-to-man conversation dude...
Ya see... from what you have been recently posting, and from what you haven't been posting (ie Sunni propaganda)... it seems clear that you want to be part of the Cool Qutbi Crew - this makes sense as a Non-Abde guy like you, shouldn't be hanging out with the Mad Muffy Mob...
Therefore you need to consider a few things my friend... firstly, are you worthy of being a Cool Qutbi... secondly, would you fit in with the Cool Qutbis... which basically means, thirdly, would the Cool Qutbis want you?
Unfortunately you are filled with bitterness and resentment against Bohras, aren't you dude. You also have all kinds of Sunni sympathies, which thankfully you've curtailed now, but I'm sure still exist deep down...
Bro, you know as well as I do... none of the above will be welcomed by Kickass Khuzzy!
Nor will it be welcomed by other Cool Qutbis - because they will be just like me baby!
That's right dude... Qutbis will be intelligent and educated... courageous and forward-thinking... devotedly Bohra... and staunchly Shia!
(As well as being good looking with a great sense of humour!)
We ain't gonna put up with any retarded simpletons... with negativity against the Bohra Community (although being against the Kothar is fine, indeed encouraged lol!)... and definitely won't tolerate any Anti-Shia bullshit!
So, if you wanna be Cool instead of a Fool... if you wanna be a Hero instead of a Zero... you're gonna have to re-evaluate your thinking and behaviour... otherwise you're better of staying as you are right now... a clueless nobody, who achieves absolutely nothing, by spending all day whining on the internet,.. while clutching on to his E-Jamaat Card!
You have the potential to be much more than this sad and pathetic creature you've become... the question is... are you willing to change? If so... how will you change?
I don't know baby, that is for you to figure out if you really want to be a Qutbi Hero - but I do have an idea you might like to try, to help you adjust to this brave new Bohra world.
Take a long break from everything (especially the internet!) by going away for a groovy holiday out in the middle of nowhere... cut yourself off from the world completely... then spend time meditating... refresh your mind... purge yourself of all the bullshit you've let build up inside you... let go of the bitterness and hatred... rejuvenate your character... cleanse your soul... open your eyes to a new and beautiful future!
At the same time, learn from your mistakes of the past... think about what made you the way you are today... quantify what you have achieved in your life so far... contemplate what you wish to accomplish going forward... consider if your present course will get you there... or whether you need to find a new direction...
After all this internal reflection... you may decide that becoming a Sunni is the way to go - in which case be a Man and go do it... don't hesitate and don't look back.
If however, you decide that being a Qutbi is what's best for you and your family - then you're gonna have to elevate your mentality... and your perception of life, the universe and everything!
I mean look at this thread and what you've posted in it - anybody else would be proud of the Khorakhiwalas - but in your present mindset, you'd rather demean them by saying they are nothing compared to other bigger business families!
Would you compare your kids in this way? If they came home with A grades in school - would you laugh at them because they didn't get an A+ like a couple of other kids did?
Would you compare your Doctor in this way? If you go see him tomorrow for treatment - will you mock his ability because he hasn't won the Nobel Prize in Medicine?
Would you compare RasulAllah this way? If someone said he was a great Prophet with over a 1.5 Billion followers - would you say he is nothing compared to Jesus Christ who has over 2 Billion followers?
What is wrong with you dude? Your frame of mind is all wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself for becoming this way - it's time for you to snap out of it, and I sincerely hope you do asap.
Anyway, getting back on topic... you're not in the league of Ratan Tata yourself... but your children and grandchildren could be in the future. We both know they will have a far better chance if they grow up with Khuzzy as opposed to Muffy... therefore I suggest you do your best to join the Cool Qutbi Crew... and do whatever it takes gain entry and remain within their fold... even if it means completely reinventing yourself.
Here endeth the lesson baby! Now I wonder what you're reply is going to be... I think I can guess
Ya see... from what you have been recently posting, and from what you haven't been posting (ie Sunni propaganda)... it seems clear that you want to be part of the Cool Qutbi Crew - this makes sense as a Non-Abde guy like you, shouldn't be hanging out with the Mad Muffy Mob...
Therefore you need to consider a few things my friend... firstly, are you worthy of being a Cool Qutbi... secondly, would you fit in with the Cool Qutbis... which basically means, thirdly, would the Cool Qutbis want you?
Unfortunately you are filled with bitterness and resentment against Bohras, aren't you dude. You also have all kinds of Sunni sympathies, which thankfully you've curtailed now, but I'm sure still exist deep down...
Bro, you know as well as I do... none of the above will be welcomed by Kickass Khuzzy!
Nor will it be welcomed by other Cool Qutbis - because they will be just like me baby!
That's right dude... Qutbis will be intelligent and educated... courageous and forward-thinking... devotedly Bohra... and staunchly Shia!
(As well as being good looking with a great sense of humour!)
We ain't gonna put up with any retarded simpletons... with negativity against the Bohra Community (although being against the Kothar is fine, indeed encouraged lol!)... and definitely won't tolerate any Anti-Shia bullshit!
So, if you wanna be Cool instead of a Fool... if you wanna be a Hero instead of a Zero... you're gonna have to re-evaluate your thinking and behaviour... otherwise you're better of staying as you are right now... a clueless nobody, who achieves absolutely nothing, by spending all day whining on the internet,.. while clutching on to his E-Jamaat Card!
You have the potential to be much more than this sad and pathetic creature you've become... the question is... are you willing to change? If so... how will you change?
I don't know baby, that is for you to figure out if you really want to be a Qutbi Hero - but I do have an idea you might like to try, to help you adjust to this brave new Bohra world.
Take a long break from everything (especially the internet!) by going away for a groovy holiday out in the middle of nowhere... cut yourself off from the world completely... then spend time meditating... refresh your mind... purge yourself of all the bullshit you've let build up inside you... let go of the bitterness and hatred... rejuvenate your character... cleanse your soul... open your eyes to a new and beautiful future!
At the same time, learn from your mistakes of the past... think about what made you the way you are today... quantify what you have achieved in your life so far... contemplate what you wish to accomplish going forward... consider if your present course will get you there... or whether you need to find a new direction...
After all this internal reflection... you may decide that becoming a Sunni is the way to go - in which case be a Man and go do it... don't hesitate and don't look back.
If however, you decide that being a Qutbi is what's best for you and your family - then you're gonna have to elevate your mentality... and your perception of life, the universe and everything!
I mean look at this thread and what you've posted in it - anybody else would be proud of the Khorakhiwalas - but in your present mindset, you'd rather demean them by saying they are nothing compared to other bigger business families!
Would you compare your kids in this way? If they came home with A grades in school - would you laugh at them because they didn't get an A+ like a couple of other kids did?
Would you compare your Doctor in this way? If you go see him tomorrow for treatment - will you mock his ability because he hasn't won the Nobel Prize in Medicine?
Would you compare RasulAllah this way? If someone said he was a great Prophet with over a 1.5 Billion followers - would you say he is nothing compared to Jesus Christ who has over 2 Billion followers?
What is wrong with you dude? Your frame of mind is all wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself for becoming this way - it's time for you to snap out of it, and I sincerely hope you do asap.
Anyway, getting back on topic... you're not in the league of Ratan Tata yourself... but your children and grandchildren could be in the future. We both know they will have a far better chance if they grow up with Khuzzy as opposed to Muffy... therefore I suggest you do your best to join the Cool Qutbi Crew... and do whatever it takes gain entry and remain within their fold... even if it means completely reinventing yourself.
Here endeth the lesson baby! Now I wonder what you're reply is going to be... I think I can guess
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
The Jews are highly educated, extremely prosperous and have among them countless exceptional people - what is wrong in aspiring to be the same?AMAFHH wrote:Brother Qutbi
do you really think being a Shia muslim you want to Progress up to the level of Jews Specifically ?
Don't be so focussed on politics dude
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Bro Qutbi Hero,
I don't know whether to call you a hero or zero lol !! Your lengthy post actually doesn't make any sense and is only diverting the issue........... I didn't say that Bohras are not successful, I only said that as compared to Parsees, the percentage of successful Bohras are far far less !! BTW Why don't we have a single Bohra who can match a Tata or Godrej who come from a miniscule community which is no where near Bohras in population ?
Abdul Rehman st, Nagdevi st, Sutar Chawl in Mumbai were once dominated by Bohras who had virtual monopoly in Hardware, Machinery, Plywood and Glass trade but now they have been dwarfed by businessmen from other communities. Bohras were mostly petty traders and shopkeepers although they were leaders in their own fields but sadly that too is no more. We had Bagasrawalas and Upletawalas in Darukhana who were leaders in ship breaking business, now they are nowhere near to businessmen from other communities. So please think before you write because you seem to be having an uncanny habit of ridiculing people although you don't realise that you are at the receiving end !!
As regards Noon, I know him much better then you do, just by living in London doesn't make you a mouthpiece of Londoners ! I know how he came up from scratch and I appreciate his business acumen. The English/Sikh wife quote was an error which I admit, I forgot to mention her religion and only stated her citizenship.
And being jealous !! That's the biggest joke you have cracked so far. And please don't worry about my success, I know what Iam and how many continents I have travelled, I don't need to blow my own trumpet. Just keep guessing lol !!
I don't know whether to call you a hero or zero lol !! Your lengthy post actually doesn't make any sense and is only diverting the issue........... I didn't say that Bohras are not successful, I only said that as compared to Parsees, the percentage of successful Bohras are far far less !! BTW Why don't we have a single Bohra who can match a Tata or Godrej who come from a miniscule community which is no where near Bohras in population ?
Abdul Rehman st, Nagdevi st, Sutar Chawl in Mumbai were once dominated by Bohras who had virtual monopoly in Hardware, Machinery, Plywood and Glass trade but now they have been dwarfed by businessmen from other communities. Bohras were mostly petty traders and shopkeepers although they were leaders in their own fields but sadly that too is no more. We had Bagasrawalas and Upletawalas in Darukhana who were leaders in ship breaking business, now they are nowhere near to businessmen from other communities. So please think before you write because you seem to be having an uncanny habit of ridiculing people although you don't realise that you are at the receiving end !!
As regards Noon, I know him much better then you do, just by living in London doesn't make you a mouthpiece of Londoners ! I know how he came up from scratch and I appreciate his business acumen. The English/Sikh wife quote was an error which I admit, I forgot to mention her religion and only stated her citizenship.
And being jealous !! That's the biggest joke you have cracked so far. And please don't worry about my success, I know what Iam and how many continents I have travelled, I don't need to blow my own trumpet. Just keep guessing lol !!
Re: Bohra culture
Qutbi-Hero sounds like doodhwala dude, I wonder which uni has granted him doctorate, must be the same one like Qaid johar.
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Being confused about things is your trademark dude - let me clarify for you... call me Hero!ghulam muhammed wrote:I don't know whether to call you a hero or zero lol !!
(However if I ever become a Wahhabi... then you can call me a Zero
)My post makes perfect sense and is precisely on point - which is more likely dude... that my English is poor or that your English is poor?Your lengthy post actually doesn't make any sense and is only diverting the issue
Tell me what parts you didn't understand, and I'll happily explain them to you again in Hinglish...
That was your implication and intention - however it's good to see you back-peddling now as it means I've got my point across... hopefully you'll drop this bullshit criticism of the Bohra Community, and focus your energy on crapping on the Bohra Kothar from now onwards BroI didn't say that Bohras are not successful
I agree... but then EVERYBODY is less successful than the mighty Parsees!I only said that as compared to Parsees, the percentage of successful Bohras are far far less !!
Guess what GM, you have less money than Bill Gates - what's the big surprise about that... and what exactly does it prove as EVERYBODY has less money than Badass Bill!
We have had them in the past, and we will have more in the future. Are you going to complain about how no Bohras have landed on the Moon now too lol?BTW Why don't we have a single Bohra who can match a Tata or Godrej who come from a miniscule community which is no where near Bohras in population ?
This same question you can ask of countless other small and large communities - what do you think the answer is?
In the UK 95% of Muslims are Sunni - yet the 5% of Shia outclass them in every aspect... so much so that Brits now call us the Real Muslims and call Sunnis the Fake Muslims (they also say this behind closed doors in Government and Courts of Law - yep even outsiders know the truth now
) Once again baby - what point are you making here?Abdul Rehman st, Nagdevi st, Sutar Chawl in Mumbai were once dominated by Bohras who had virtual monopoly in Hardware, Machinery, Plywood and Glass trade but now they have been dwarfed by businessmen from other communities. Bohras were mostly petty traders and shopkeepers although they were leaders in their own fields but sadly that too is no more. We had Bagasrawalas and Upletawalas in Darukhana who were leaders in ship breaking business, now they are nowhere near to businessmen from other communities.
Are you in business... have you been overtaken by other people? If so - why?
Don't kid yourself playa - your embarrassment at how I destroyed every point you made is crystal clear lol!So please think before you write because you seem to be having an uncanny habit of ridiculing people although you don't realise that you are at the receiving end !!
PM me your real name GM - I can ask him if he does actually know you... I'd bet my Topi that he doesn't lol!As regards Noon, I know him much better then you do, just by living in London doesn't make you a mouthpiece of Londoners !
Oh... so now you want to praise him? What happened to all the uncomfortable "gossip" you've apparently heard about him - please do spill the beans dude... I'm sure it will change the world lol!I know how he came up from scratch and I appreciate his business acumen.
Why do lie so much (like Anajmi)?The English/Sikh wife quote was an error which I admit, I forgot to mention her religion and only stated her citizenship.
You thought she was White because when you Googled her... you saw her surname is Kent lol!
Not at all... you and many others on this forum are very jealous of high flying people - it's not healthy and it will hold you all back (which it most certainly has so far!).And being jealous !! That's the biggest joke you have cracked so far.
Learn to admire people instead of envying them - respect hard-word and talent instead of demean it... then you may see success yourself my friend.
The world is full of nobodies who sit around all day belittling those you have achieved something - you are one of those nobodies right now... please do try to change if you can
We've all travelled dude, there's nothing special about that in this day and age... my question to you (which you keep avoiding!) is why are you not a person as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata? Also, more importantly, why are there no Reformists who are the same?And please don't worry about my success, I know what Iam and how many continents I have travelled, I don't need to blow my own trumpet. Just keep guessing lol !!
What is your answer to these two questions GM?
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
What the hell dude! Have you not created another account by now?Sequence wrote:Qutbi-Hero sounds like doodhwala dude, I wonder which uni has granted him doctorate, must be the same one like Qaid johar.
Please go ahead and do so immediately - otherwise the forum will get boring... because we can't play our hilarious "Spot The Faker" game anymore lol!
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Final observations on your senseless and useless posts:-Qutbi-Hero wrote: Being confused about things is your trademark dude - let me clarify for you... call me Hero! (However if I ever become a Wahhabi... then you can call me a Zero )
Actually the one who is really confused is YOU dude because you just keep on making an issue out of a non issue, you keep on stretching it like a rubber band !! Its senseless debating with someone like you because you are just bent upon blowing your own trumpet and that of the Britishers and bohras/shias without understanding the actual context in which certain observations were made. None of your posts are complete without 'Wahabi' diatribes which reminds me of a famous shayri "Rafiqo se Rakib acche, JAL KAR sahi, yaad to karte hain, naam to lete hai"
I rest my case !
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
You also never forget to raise the "Jealousy" issue although there is no substance in it. It seems that your oft repeated quote smacks of the actual "Jealousy" YOU have for the wahabis (I am no wahabi fan and I don't subscribe to their ideology)...... Is it your utter failure in the field of medicine which compels you to vent your frustrations on the filthy rich wahabis who are no match to you and your brothers in religion ?? Come on, grow up...... No matter how cruel they are but still Allah has bestowed upon them the wealth and no amount of your jealousy can change the fact that they are the guardians of the most sacred places in Islam and you are at their mercy when you go to Haj !!
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
My posts are awesome and kickass! Hell Yeah!ghulam muhammed wrote:Final observations on your senseless and useless posts:-
Your posts are mostly useless copy/paste jobs... with the rest being senseless fabrications which I've cut to shreds more times than I can remember lol!
I agree... your notion that Bohras are losers/loosers is entirely incorrect... therefore is a non-issue!Actually the one who is really confused is YOU dude because you just keep on making an issue out of a non issue
Now be a good little E-Jamaat Card Holder and don't mention this non-issue again... unless you want me to make a fool of you once more lol!
Are you frikkin kidding me! You are the KING of stretching things to infinity (and beyond) lol!you keep on stretching it like a rubber band !!
You haven't been able to shut up about Modi for years lol! You can't let go of Honorary Doctorates lol! Man, you even keep going on about some harmless photo with an Air Stewardess lol!
Dude, you've have been stretching and stretching the same lines of boring and nonsensical drivel, since you joined this place!
Please try and come up with something new because your rubber-band snapped ages ago lol!
I win every time lol!Its senseless debating with someone like you because
Also, you don't actually know how to debate do you GM - you've never been able to refute any post, point by point... all you do is follow in the footsteps of your big brother Anajmi... by trying to divert the subject to avoid answering the pertinent questions lol! It's highly entertaining to watch, so please keep it up dude!
Please go ahead and copy/paste the posts you mean - as you know (from experience!) GM... I rarely talk about myself because I'm too busy making fun of people like you and your buddies lol!you are just bent upon blowing your own trumpet
Britishers? LOL! just because I reminded you that my grasp of the English language is naturally going to be better than yours... doesn't mean I'm blowing the trumpet of Britain! You need to stop being so embarrassed when I destroy an idiotic post you make - just thank me for educating you, instead of making yourself look retarded by bleating that my perfectly logical and accurate replies, don't make sense LOL!and that of the Britishers
Like I said, if my posts are at a level of English much higher than you're used to - I'll happily rephrase for you... you only need to ask! I'm here to help you dude lol!
However it's more likely that your level of intelligence is not up to standard - which unfortunately I cannot help you with - Sorry Bro lol!
Ah, now you're (finally!) getting somewhere... yes, Bohras/Shias are awesome! And Qutbis will become even more awesome!and bohras/shias
Now tell me... why do you (and quite a few others!) spend so much time saying Bohras/Shias are garbage? (While being a Bohra yourself lol!
) Your context is always negatively inaccurate and your observations are consistently flawed - but it's okay dude... I enjoy correcting you lol!without understanding the actual context in which certain observations were made.
As long as Wahhabis remain on this forum - I will remain against them... I wonder why that bothers you so much? (Although I'm so glad it does!None of your posts are complete without 'Wahabi'
) Nope! The case is still wide open until you answer the two main questions baby!I rest my case !
Why not give a reply like a MARD! (as SBM would say lol!)
1) Why are You not a person as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata?
2) Why are there no Reformists who are as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata?
Wait, one more question because I'm curious what ground-breaking nonsense you'll come up with (even though you don't know him at all lol!)
3) What is all this "uncomfortable" gossip you know about The Noonster? Be a MARD and spill the beans lol!
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
You are insanely jealous of every person who is smarter than you - which is pretty much everyone on the planet lol! (Well, except Anajmi of course!)ghulam muhammed wrote:You also never forget to raise the "Jealousy" issue although there is no substance in it.
Your previous post was one and a half hours before this one... after all that time (of stewing in your own juices lol!)... this was the best you could come up with... LOL!It seems that your oft repeated quote smacks of the actual "Jealousy" YOU have for the wahabis
So does this mean your years of criticism of the Kothar... are actually a sign of you being jealous of them? LOL!
What about all your scathing posts about Modi and Najmuddin - are you jealous of them too? LOL!
Bullshit! You love the Wahhabis! Just look at how you're best buddies with Anajmi and MF lol!(I am no wahabi fan and I don't subscribe to their ideology)
Dang! It seems you're not only jealous of The Noonster... you're also jealous of me too!Is it your utter failure in the field of medicine which compels you to vent your frustrations
Dude, if imagining I'm a failure helps you cope with your jealousy - and makes it easier to live with your own mediocrity... then go right ahead and knock yourself out baby lol!
(Personally speaking though - if I was in your shoes, I'd focus my attention on helping my children make something of themselves... so they don't end up being a nobody who spends each and every day, building up thousands of insignificant posts on the internet
)Double-Dang! Seems you're a fan of the Wahhabis after all! Hell, you pretty much worship them! (which explains a lot about you doesn't it GMon the filthy rich wahabis who are no match to you and your brothers in religion ?? Come on, grow up...... No matter how cruel they are but still Allah has bestowed upon them the wealth and no amount of your jealousy can change the fact that they are the guardians of the most sacred places in Islam and you are at their mercy when you go to Haj !!
)Dude, the whole world despises the Wahhabis... Muslims and Non-Muslims alike... because they are evil and spread hatred and violence and destruction, everywhere they go... but in your simple mind, this must mean the whole world is really just in envy of them LOL!
You really are desperate and deluded aren't you GM!
PS: Don't forget to stop criticising the Muffy Mob - otherwise people will think you're jealous of them too lol!
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Uff ! YaaaaaaaaaaaaaWN !!
"The Pot calling the kettle black" !! Now who goes on unending rants stretching like a rubber band ! No prize for guessing !
Instead of desperately trying to score points with senseless lengthy posts, why don't you answer the question which I asked long time back --
"The Pot calling the kettle black" !! Now who goes on unending rants stretching like a rubber band ! No prize for guessing !
Instead of desperately trying to score points with senseless lengthy posts, why don't you answer the question which I asked long time back --
Qutbi-Hero wrote:Here in London Jamaat, every thaal you sit on will be full of Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen.
Are there separate thaals for Bohra NASA scientists ?ghulam muhammed wrote:Please give some specific examples.
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Qutbi-Hero
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm
Re: Bohra culture
Dang! You refuted every point I made in my awesomely long posts!ghulam muhammed wrote:"The Pot calling the kettle black" !! Now who goes on unending rants stretching like a rubber band ! No prize for guessing !
Oh wait - no you didn't... you just ran away like usual lol!
You have got to be kidding me... again!Instead of desperately trying to score points with senseless lengthy posts, why don't you answer the question which I asked long time back --Qutbi-Hero wrote:Here in London Jamaat, every thaal you sit on will be full of Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen.ghulam muhammed wrote:Please give some specific examples.
A few posts above you replied "I didn't say that Bohras are not successful" - now you're back to saying they are lol! Just how big a moron are you lol!
Are you honestly trying to imply that there are no Bohra "Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen" = LOL!
Dude, just because you are a nobody... doesn't mean everybody else is GM!
Listen, be honest baby - you haven't travelled anywhere really have you... and certainly not to London! If you had been here, you'd know London is one of the most expensive cities in the world... and how difficult it is to survive if you are not qualified and earning a good income... in fact it's impossible to survive, when you also have to pay all the Bohra Taxes lol!
I think it's best for you to stay in your little Ghamru my friend - I'm sure everybody there is a Rickshaw Driver like you... who simply cannot believe that other people have studied hard and become Professionals! I mean it just can't be true... LOL!
No, the Bohras who work for NASA... sit on the same Thaals as all the other " "Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers etc and ofcourse Businessmen" - you'd already know this if you had ever been to America lol!Are there separate thaals for Bohra NASA scientists ?
Now tell me:
How many Reformists work for NASA? LOL!
How many Wahhabis work for NASA? Double-LOL!
Have you ever worked for NASA? Triple-LOL!
Anyway, where were we GM... ah yes:
1) Why are You not a person as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata?
2) Why are there no Reformists who are as exceptionally successful and acclaimed as Tata?
3) What is all this "uncomfortable" gossip you know about The Noonster? Be a MARD and spill the beans lol!