Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

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Umreti
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:05 pm

Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#1

Unread post by Umreti » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:00 am


SBM
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#2

Unread post by SBM » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:00 am

What a shameful act and they call themselves Muslims.

Umreti
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:05 pm

Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#3

Unread post by Umreti » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:48 am

Although they are a bit overzealous young people, It is under their control and they are only implementing what the prophet pbuh asked Ali AS to do. They certainly not disrespecting the saints in the grave as they had not asked to violate the prophetic hadith. Even Daimul Islam forbids making concrete graves. They are just Islam's much needed iconoclasts. Those who get upset do so in ignorance and we know that ignorance is no excuse in Islam. A lot of Shirkia activities take place at Raudat Tahera ,millions are spent in the upkeep and construction of such useless structures at the cost of violating the commandment of the prophets.

think
Posts: 1835
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#4

Unread post by think » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:02 am

if bohri mullas had their way they would make dargahs as much as possible, because that is income for them. why do you think local jamaats insist mumineen to go to india for ziarat and visit all dargahs.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#5

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:33 pm

I wonder as to where the quranic verse "lakum deenakum wal yadeen" fits in their ideology ! There was not a single instance wherein Prophet (s.a.w.) razed the churches and synagogues or even demolished idols in hindu temples. The idols were demolished in Kaaba because it were installed in an Islamic place of worship. He (s.a.w.) had clearly stated that there is no compulsion in religion ! BTW, has the ISIS chief been accepted as a Caliph by the Muslim world that he goes on imposing his dictats on other muslims ?

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#6

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:44 am

Generally, visiting graves is mustahab (recommended) for men and permissible for women. Visiting the graves of saintly people, parents and close relatives is considered mandoob (desirable). It is permissible and possible for women to visit graves as long as they do not cry out, wail, behave hysterically and respect graves too much, which can cause mischief. This is because the Prophet advised a woman who was wailing at her child’s grave to endure; yet he did not forbid her to visit the grave. (Bukhari, Janaiz, 2, Ahkam II; Muslim, Janaiz, 15). The Prophet prohibited visiting graves during a period of time when belief in fate was not yet settled and traditions of the era of ignorance were still being practiced. However, later he permitted it. The following is stated in a hadith:

“I had prohibited visiting graves for you. From now on you can visit graves”. (Muslim, Janaiz, 106; Adahi, 37; Abu Dawud janaiz, 77; Ashriba, 7; Tirmidhi, Janaiz, 7; Nasai, Janaiz, 100; Ibn Majah, Janaiz, 47; Ahmad b. Hanbal, I, 147, 452, III, 38, 63, 237, 250, V, 35, 355, 357).It has been observed in the stream of history that graves were also visited to ask for help from the dead and even to worship them.

This is the reason why visiting the Prophet’s grave was prohibited in the early years of Islam. Jews and Christians made the graves of people, whom they considered saints, place of worship for themselves. In the Era of Ignorance, people used to prostrate before graves and worship idols. Idolatry started with respect and revering to eminent people’s graves and eventually, that respect turned into worshipping idols. The aim of Islam was to place the principle of tawhid (accepting Allah as the unique Creator and worshipping to Him only) in people’s hearts. Previously, Prophet Muhammad had prohibited visiting graves because he found it risky for this reason. However, when the creed of tawhid was settled in people’s hearts and well comprehended by Muslims, he permitted people to visit graves.

As a matter of fact, there are benefits in visiting graves both for the living and the dead. When the Messenger of Allah was on the expedition to Makkah, he visited his mother Amina’s grave and cried, and made the people around him cry too, and he permitted Muslims to visit graves. (Ibn Majah, Janaiz, 48; Nasai, Janaiz, 101; Muslim, Janaiz, 36; Abu Dawud, Janaiz, 77). That permission and also encouragement of visiting graves are available in well-known hadiths. (Ibn Majah, Janaiz, 47; Tirmidhi, Janaiz, 60).

a) It reminds one of death and afterlife, and makes him draw a lesson from it for his afterlife. (Muslim, Janaiz, 108; Tirmidhi, Janaiz, 59; Ibn Majah, Janaiz 47-48; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, I, 145).
b) It directs one to asceticism and taqwa (God-Consciousness). It prevents over-ambitiousness for worldly life and committing harams. It directs one to commit good deeds. (Ibn Majah, Janaiz, 47).
c) Visiting graves of saintly people - especially that of our Prophet’s - refreshes one’s soul and helps to evoke supreme feelings in them. It is mandoob to travel to the graves of our Prophet and Allah’s saintly slaves in order to visit them. The Prophet states in a hadith: “Whoever visits me after I die, it is as if he visited me when I was alive.” (Mansur Ali Nasif, at-Taj, al-Jamiu’l Usul, II, 190).
d) Visiting graves helps the strengthening of one’s relations with his past, religious culture and history.

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#7

Unread post by thinkagain » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:43 am

there is a world difference between visiting graves and visiting dargahs, grave is a simple grave of mud which is not made concrete. A dargah is a mausoleum , what they have done is demolished dargahs not graves. Even in Baqi you will find nice graves which really make you remember the hereafter unlike those pompous structure where you have "feel good" feelings. In all of the dargahs I visited , people come there and to mannat , tie thread etc. They do directly invoke the saint and certainly they dont feel to remember the hereafter rather they come to get their wishes fulfilled.

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#8

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:02 am

Building Tombs and Masjids near a grave of a holy person is nowhere wrong and not even objected by the Quran. Infact building one is suggested by the people and described in the Quran as well. You are right, tombs and good structure doesnt remind us of the afterlife, but does make us realize about those who gave their lives for Islam. its again a person to person opinion. Its not wrong to build one thats all.

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#9

Unread post by thinkagain » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:35 am

There are clear commands in both shia\sunni to not make graves concrete . A grave should only be made up of dirt\Mud\Sand with an optional stone marker. And the one you mention about Surah Kahf is not about building Shrines and does not apply to Sharia of Muhammad pbuh

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#10

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:30 am

Quran states:

Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said,"Let us surely build a place of worship over them." (Quran 18:21)
Tafsir Number 1

Qadhi Thana Ullah Panipatti (Rahimuhullah) writes in his great Tafsir al Mazhari: After the death of Ashaab al Kahf a dispute occurred between Muslims and non-muslims, The Muslims said that they will make a Masjid over them because they were of our faith whereas the disbelievers said they will build other buildings on it where people will live….This Ayah is proving that Mosques could be made near graves of Awliya in order to say salaat in them, Tabarruk is also attained through the tombs of Awliya [Tafsir al Mazhari Volume No.7, Page No. 123-124]




Tafsir Number 2

Tafsir by Imam Bayzawi (rah) says: "From this it is understood that to erect a Mausoleum for the special people, i.e. Pious Saints and Ulema, is permissible".

Tafsir Number 3

Some people said that the door of the cave should be closed so that nobody can enter it and the Ahwaal (of Ashab e Kahf) are kept hidden. Some people said that It is better to build a mosque at the door, this saying proves that these people were “ARIFEEN OF ALLAH WHO BELIEVED IN WORSHIPPING AND PRAYER”[Tafsir al Kabeer, Volume No. 5, Page No. 475]

Dont judge the Sharia of Nabi Mohammed p.b.u.h. by your personal choices. Thousands of references are in favor of building shrines of holy and pious people. Just you dont believe doesnt mean its wrong and shouldnt be there..

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#11

Unread post by thinkagain » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:59 am

It's well known and established fact that prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) forbid to us to build structures upon the graves. Ahadeth with such meaning were narrated from words of Aisha, ibn Abbas, Jundub, Abu Hurayra, and Jabir. These ahadeth could be easily find in sahihayn. Even the Shia Isna Ashari and Ismaili narrations have such commands.

However grave worshippers are raising objection and basing it upon the verse of Quran.

Allah said:
[Shakir 18:19] And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city, then let him see which of them has purest food, so let him bring you provision from it, and let him behave with gentleness, and by no means make your case known to any one:
[Shakir 18:20] For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.
[Shakir 18:21] And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them.
In this verses talk is about people of cave. I seen grave worshippers saying that in Quran mentioned building upon grave, so we would do that.

On this claim we would answer:

1) In ilmul-usul there is a rule that shariah of previous nations isn't shariah for us. There are many examples of this, it's enough mention here that in our shariah permited war spoils, and they were forbidden in previous shariahs.
In shariah of Adam (alaihi salam) were permitted kind of marriage which is not permitted now. And etc.

2) For the sake of the argument we would say that shariah of previous nations could be a shariah for us, but it could be only if it's not contradicting our shariah. And here it's clear that such act is forbidden in our shariah. So, if this verse is a proof that building upon graves permitted, it would refer only to shariah of that nation, and such act was forbidden in our shariah by mutawatir narrations.

3) We don't accept from the outward appearance of this verse, that building upon graves was permitted in shariah of those people. In the verse simply stated: Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them.

It's not clear who were they? Heretics? Or faithful muslims of their time.

Ibn Kathir in commentary of this verse said:
(those who won their point said: "We verily, shall build a place of worship over them.'') Those who said this were the people of power and influence, but were they good people or not There is some debate on this point, because the Prophet said:
«لَعَنَ اللهُ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى اتَّخَذُوا قُبُورَ أَنْبِيَائِهِمْ وَصَالِحِيهِمْ مَسَاجِد»
(Allah has cursed the Jews and the Christians who took the graves of their Prophets and righteous people as places of worship) Warning against what they did. We have reported about the Commander of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab that when he found the grave of Danyal (Daniel) in Iraq during his period of rule, he gave orders that news of this grave should be withheld from the people, and that the inscription containing mention of battles etc., that they found there should be buried.
4) In the verse is also not clear was that mosque build or not. It simply indicated the wish of people who won their point.

5) As we mentioned in these verses talk is about people of cave, which found their last abode in the cave. So even if that mosque was build, it was build upon a mountain, hill or anything else, but not exactly upon their graves. Because in such case it should be build in the cave.

Allah knows best.

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#12

Unread post by silvertongue » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:13 am

So there are two hadiths. One which does not objects on building masjid or tombs on graves, and the one which does. So which one to follow then?

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#13

Unread post by thinkagain » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:45 am

Which two hadith? no sahih hadith encourages building tombs , infact many sahih hadith from both shia\sunni prohibit it.

And existence of one sahih hadith is enough to discourage it but we have many

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#14

Unread post by thinkagain » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:49 am

Shia:

IMAM JAFIR SADIQ (as) DECLARES TAKFEER ON PEOPLE WHO RENOVATE GRAVES IN SHIA HADITH
=========================
Muhammad b. al-Hasan al-Hurr al-`Amuli in al-Fusul al-Muhimma vol 2, Book of Tahara, Chapters on the rules of the dead, wrote:
(1212) 2 – وقال عليه السلام: من جدد قبرا أو مثل مثالا فقد خرج من الاسلام.
2 – And he عليه السلام said: Whoever renovates a grave or fashions an image, then he has exited from Islam.
Chapter 18
(1210) 1 – قال الصادق عليه السلام: كل ما جعل على القبر من غير تراب القبر فهو ثقل على الميت.
1 – as-Sadiq عليه السلام said: All that is put upon the grave other than the dirt of the grave, then it is a weight upon the deceased.
Chapter 19
(1211) 1 – قال علي عليه السلام: بعثني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إلى المدينة فقال: لا تدع صورة إلا محوتها ولا قبرا إلا سويته ولا كلبا إلا قتلته.
1 – `Ali عليه السلام said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله sent me to Madina, and he said: Do not leave any image but that you have erased it and no grave but that you have leveled it and no dog but that you have killed it.
(1212) 2 – وقال عليه السلام: من جدد قبرا أو مثل مثالا فقد خرج من الاسلام.
2 – And he عليه السلام said: Whoever renovates a grave or fashions an image, then he has exited from Islam.
What kind of fiqh rulings, important in our times, can we achieve from these ahadeth?
1) It’s prohibited to put on the grave dirt, more than from itself! Let alone to build shrines upon them. As imaam as-Sadiq said: (Everything except dirt from grave itself ) it is a weight upon the deceased”. Also we seen words of Ali (r.a), that prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) ordered him to level graves. Similar hadith also exist in sunni books. Also we see imaam making takfir upon people who are renovating graves. SubhanAllah! What about millions which spend on the shrines, and their maintenance?!

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#15

Unread post by silvertongue » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:29 am

Well no matter what, unless you dont worship any of those its fine.. Quran doesnt prohibit it. If it would have been that important there would have a verse of it in Quran. But we find nothing there. Even if you post all these authentic hadiths today we find tombs in Karbala, Medina and India. So point is unless you dont worship it you are safe.

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#16

Unread post by thinkagain » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:32 am

Here worship is a secondary issue as in hadith, it goes beyond that and does not even allow constructing "pakki kabar" in the first place. Hence it does not matter whether someone worships\or not what matters is that qabar should always be made of dirt and mud. It cannot be whitewashed or made of concrete\marble

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#17

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:40 am

And if Made, Whats the AZAAB if you can explain brother.

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#18

Unread post by thinkagain » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:44 am

Curse of Allah as per some sahih hadith, Jews and Christians also did the same thing for which they were cursed.

Curse means "some ill will befell" either here or in the hereafter

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#19

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:00 am

Hadiths are fabricated brother. Thats why we have hadiths that shows Nabi Mohammed p.b.u.h going to the graves for dua or Imams sayings on Ziyarat, and on the other hand we have hadiths which doesnt allow it. So forget hadiths if you can show anything from the Quran about this then we can talk. Coz as u say this is a very important matter and something has to be there in the Quran. Allah did mention everything what he Cursed so if this has a curse to it then it should be ther. Take ur time brother.. :-)

thinkagain
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#20

Unread post by thinkagain » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:20 am

No brother , fabricated hadith do exist , but they are already labelled so , the prophet pbuh every saying is preserved well not just the Quran.

Ofcourse ziyarat is sunnah, who objects to it? Ziyarat on legal "kacchi" kabar is sunnah.

But making tombs \dargah is prohibited in sahih hadith and there are no contradictory sahih hadith.

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#21

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:29 am

So what about the Tombs and Mazars at Karbala and Najaf or Medina. They are one of the most holiest places in Islam. Ofcourse people like us dont go there for worshipping our Maula but rather pay a visit to the most beloved personalities of Allah swt. Id say it depends on a person to person how one takes things.

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#22

Unread post by silvertongue » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:22 am

I fear they dont start making it a Hajj spot. Zameen ke khuda to aa gaye hai.. Ab yehi baaki hai bas.

garibmumin
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#23

Unread post by garibmumin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:26 am

hope so, but these dargahs are great money minting weapons.

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#24

Unread post by silvertongue » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:03 am

They have even introduced Tawaaf thing.

morela
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#25

Unread post by morela » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:46 am

Yes. these innovations had to be stopped

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#26

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:20 am

No ones gonna stop them unless they decide on their own man.. Who will stop? please answer.

morela
Posts: 183
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#27

Unread post by morela » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:45 pm

Yes , people can be stopped by creating awareness and not just suppressing our inner iconoclastic urges. Get your hands dirty!

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#28

Unread post by silvertongue » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:42 am

Creating Awareness? HOW? by preaching?.. I dont think thats gonna work pal. Or else it would ev been taken into effect a very long time ago. And doing hands dirty?... Where did this come from?.. You want to force someone to follow whatever u follow?.. thats not Islam man.

morela
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#29

Unread post by morela » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:52 am

Yes awareness by preaching is no wrong

silvertongue
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Re: Dargahs have been demolished in Iraq

#30

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:09 am

Awareness reaches to those who really thinks rationally and wise. But i agree that even if there is 1 in 1000 it does make a difference.