Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

The purpose of this Forum is to highlight and discuss issues pertaining to specific Jamats. Please use this space responsibly and report facts. We reserve the right to edit/delete posts that we find are irrelevant and based on gossip and hearsay.
Jamali
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#61

Unread post by Jamali » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:29 pm

Asalam Alaikum Bensaheba,

I thank you for your support with regard to my past.

I have read you post very diligently and I actually thank you for at least accepting that problems do exist in the jamat's all over the World. You portrayed the dilemma of many other bohri's who are in the community and in the same situation as you.

We all acknowledge a problem exists but currently not sure of how to handle the problem. There is no way you have the capacity to fight against an "organization" who have 'fanatics' at their disposal and as you correctly portrayed, accumulated a wealth that if accounted for can be "beyond anyone's dreams."

The question arises then what to do?
1. Do we keep quite and let things remain as they are, because it can only get worst not better. As you said if "Maula" is not aware of whats happening on the ground and I am sure you will agree without a doubt, that he is the "ONLY" one who can do justice to this problem if he comes to know; as the 'mini Dais and the rest of the Royal Family' have become "business minded" and its difficult to find a person like "Maula" amongst them. I cant comment on whether their exists a person or not but "Money and Power" have made the most Virtuous and Religious Corrupt and even if one does exist amongst his people, do you think the "bad lot" will allow it to be? For once anyone reading this post be it from both sides think about this...Let me put it in another context...what makes you think that a new person if he is such a good person, will also not be blinded by the very same people surrounding the Maula and keep him informed only of the good news??? please use "Allahs gift to us all!!!

2. A second point I want to make is...and please forgive me but your faith in "Maula" is slightly flawed. the reason I say this we all agree he is a Pious Man who has a wealth of Knowledge both of Deen and the World as per his intellect. I am sure he has met many of his followers during numerous occasions and in my personal opinion, if I am a true leader or a lover of his people I should be able to make out my followers feelings and connect with my followers. You agree that a mother or parent can detect the feelings of their children immediately based on the love they have for them??? So honestly tell me a man of such 'VIRTUES' really can be left in the dark??? If you truly believe he is a man of Allah, and you agree Allah loves his children, wouldn't Allah help his children through their leader? If he is a Dai sent by the Imam to take care of his flock, a man as 'virtuous' as him should be able to know the people surrounding him or taking care of his flock. We may argue he is aged and its difficult for him now, but then again such atrocities of the Amils and Goons were being carried out even in the 70's when he was very much in touch with the people!!!

3. The third point you made was of accumulation of luxury homes and all over the world by the royal family! This isn't an overnight miracle. This has occured over a number of years! Imagine if this is the result of the extortion that goes on, then whats gonna happen in 10 - 15 yrs down the line? If you consider the "Bhendi Bazaar" project you will realize that 80% of the Bohri Community live in that area. By carrying out such a project you are virtually taking control of the Bohri population (Their land, their home, their business) In Africa they start projects where they built houses whereby 2/3 of the cost was born by the Bohri sand 1/3 was Moulanas funds (Bohri funds also in the form of Sabeel and Wajeebaat accumulated). These "flats" were built in an estate and since Maula also contributed he owned it too (the land). The conditions: You can't sell to an outside. you can sell only to another Bohri. The property (Land) is not yours but the Jamats. You paid for the house but ideally you dont own it as you cant decide what to do with it. So what does that mean? Universal control and slavery? So my point is Who is going to suffer? You can survive now paying them but what about your children you leave behind? Is this what they will inherit from you? you want them to be slaves for the rest of their lives giving in to the extortions of these Amils based on the very same emotion that you were captured in..."Fear!" As parents we want the best for our children. We spent all our lives struggling trying to give them the best education and life so that they can be responsible human beings in the future.Why then in our own communities we just allow them to be sucked in as slaves to these Amils and goons???

4. I agree its difficult to fight them down . They business acumen is so advanced that they have started brainwashing children from the day they are born to get into a system where they empire will get sustained. They have pushed Bohris into doing "business" for the same reasons. They arent bothered about the few reformists that exist as long as they are able to sustain the "support" of the bensahebas like you (no offense meant) in the context of fear and suppression. There are many in the same boat as you and cant do much. People are afraid to fight the lone fight and in that context I agree.

So what do we do?
A few suggestions:
1. Create an air of Resistance. Bensaheba you are the very people who can help the future generations of the community. How do we create it? Many people are able to meet the demands hence are able to continue with the suppression. You are in the same boat. As the say : "Chali ka naam Gadi". As long as you can meet up with their demands lets continue. " However what if the demands increases beyond your capacity??? and what if it increases with many in the Jamaat and not a few??? Also most of the Bohris are in the middle class.. Push them to chuck out more then watch how people react when there is common injustice...if they demand 100 dollars, you will pay. However create a scenario where the Amils are made to feel a person can cough up 1000 dollars and let them try enforcing this on the people!!! then see the united reaction you get. The very chamchas or fanatics enjoy priviledges because of being friends with the amils and goons and lying to them about their situations. Most times people request for a review of Sabeel and Wajebat even though they can afford it. As they pay less they get away with it and to please the Amils they become their chamchas. My view is expose this... How? i know of family X who owns a business A and his wife is working in a huge company B. (9/10) the Amil and Bhaisaheb are kept unawares of the wifes income and the constant crying of Family X's Business not doing well. Every family knows or has an idea of approx. incomes of others based on their lifestyles....Expose that to the Amil. Family X bought a New Mercedes..Let the Amil / Bhai Saheb know of this through annonimous mails to them and see how his next Sabeel and Wajebaat goes up and let him try negotiating himself out of that when the goons know facts...9/10 u will see these people lamenting and abusing the same Amils and Bhaisahebs they were chamchas to....U cary on for some time then see how much support you get. Eventually you will kill 2 birds with one stone as somehow it will definately reach the higher authority!!

2: What stops people from highlighting the atrocities of the Amils to head office in Saifee Mahal? If we believe that this is the work of the local amils and if the royal family is innocent them maybe not the first letter but the 50th letter will definatley reach the right person??? Have we tried that approach? Isnt it better than sitting quiet? Lets not forget that being the follower of "Maula" we also uphold the duty to safeguard his prestige and Honour if we truly believe he is innocent so by keeping quiet how are you upholding that honour?? If he is a Dai and has done so much for us then deep down in our hearts is this how we pay him back? Corrupt officials abuse the very system he is supposed to protect and you guys stand back and watch the show???I am sorry but your respect for him is highly questionable.

Anyways once again i appologise if i have offended anyone but my aim is just simple...to request to each and every one of us to use our thought processes and follow the right path and do the right thing!!!Remember You only live once and there is a hereafter and your "Deeds" and "Amal" will depend on that. These "Deeds and Amal" are dependent on your actions and decisions and YOU and ONLY U will be able to chose your destiny in the hereafter!

bensaheba
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:01 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#62

Unread post by bensaheba » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:41 am

Dear Mr. Jamali: I don't feel the slightest offense in all you have said as I am with you 100% on all the problems within all our jamaats. I am kind to gharib momena behno and go out of my way to help them as much as I can, but being a woman my powers are limited, but financially I i help them the best I can or by giving my support to their petitions. I take salaam money from rich and give to the poor without hesitation of any kind.
In my opinion all the problems start with the most persecuting misaq document, which enslaves you and gives all your rights to Kothar. Misaq used to be for imam, but now they have included Dai in it with Imam. With inclusion of Dai by extention all Amils get included as they are his representatives. These Amils have created an atmosphere of FEAR in every ones heart by keeping goons and cronies and chamchas who jump at his ishara to insult anyone or throw anyone out. Also, these Amils have perfected the system of outright baraat into a social boycott which is enacted underground and the victim discovers little by little as he notices not getting invited to various private functions and feels very isolated and is forced to go to Amil and beg his forgiveness ( Please Notice Maola is not involved in any of this). Amil colors his actions as if the victim has acted against Maola. in other words, Amil projects that all his words and deeds are what Maola would do just in the same vein as we think all Maola's actions are what Imam would do. With such a powerful misaq in their pockets Amils terrorize the little people and create such tremendous amount of FEAR in their hearts that no one dares stand up to the Amil.
Women have told me that they had given written arzis to lot of higher ups many times, but they send it back to the Amil instead sending up to Maola, this aggravates amil more and he become harsher with them and their families, So talking to higher ups gets you now where but in more trouble.

I cry a lot listening to them and with them and my brain gets numb due to their pain and I have no solution. The Shahzadas and others Surrounding Maola are doing a disservice to dawat and maola by protecting him from knowing the ugly truth.

I don;t think there is any solution to all this untill this misaq thing removes dai's name from it which will also remove all amils from acting so obnoxious and haughty and project themself as mini Dais.

TBG
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:12 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#63

Unread post by TBG » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:36 am

Do not mean to barge in your conversation, but like bro Jamal said .. i find it really hard to believe that the Dai really has no idea what goes on ... he can apparently converse with the Imam after each prayer but he is totally unaware of the what goes on in the community ...

if he really is only concerned with religious teachings then why is it that he personally emphasis the people to pay their dues on time etc ... and no this is not zakat he is talking about ... even if its a small amount that he thinks they are collecting the point is that all the sabeel, and other collections are unislamic which he is asking everyone to pay ..

there are many other resevrations that i have but this is just a starter ...

if he is such a man of Allah(Swt) , RasulAllah(saw) and Imam .. can he not see the poverty around him wihle he continues to personally enjoy all the luxuries in the world ... im sure no imam and pious man would stand for this ??? if they want to enjoy that they would personally make sure as their own duty to personally see the upliftment of the soecity and his people ..

the doors of the leaders are open for thier people at all times .. then the numbers dont matter .. even if he cannot meet everyone individually .. he makes sure he spends enough time with them directly or indirectly ..

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#64

Unread post by profastian » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:40 am

bensaheba wrote:Dear Mr. Jamali: Welcome to the forum,I am only a couple of postings older than you here. I read your background of suffering over 3 generations at the hands of Amils and his goons. Sorry about that. I myself am a renegade bensaheba, very disgusted with what is going on in all our jamaats. If my husband the bhaisaheb found out that I visit here then I won't remain a bensaheba either.
The basic problem of Maola not doing anything about all the bad things is that the people surrounding him will not allow any bad news to reach his tender ear and more tender heart, he is given only fateh mubin news all the time and thats how you live to be 100 years old. All his tasks are delegated to his 7 sons and other close relatives(i.e,brothers). So, we have a lot of mini-dai(s). Even naming the baby duty is assigned to one of his sons. Since they are doing it with his raza then in the minds of bohras it is the same.
one time accidentally Maola found out that Shahzada saheb was asking people to do 5-7 lakhs salaams to Aqa Maola for misaq of their kids, Maola got very upset and cancelled the misaq that day. next day he took misaq with freedom to people to do salaams whatever they like. I heard that in LA the amil wanted each family to contribute $10,000 for Maola's arrival for masjid iftetah but after the visit of a shahzada saheb the amount was increased to $14,000 per family. This obviously shows the greed of the shahzadas not Aqa Maola. Hadiyat najwa is also under the control of shahzadas and Maola has no knowledge as to what is being asked for najwa, shahzada write $52,000 for some,@72,000for others and over $100,000 for other fat cats. Where does it all go????
it all goes in buying palatial homes in every country of the world in the most exclusive neighborhoods and in most touristy cities so that their youngster have a place to romp. all these properties and thousands of normal homes are bought in the name of Dawat-e-Hadiyah which is tax free organization. Every big city aamil has several home in their cities to oversee and take care of. The income from these rental places again goes into that tax free account, no one benefits except the royal family members from this income.If Maola knew how much property is owned by his organization or how much of the money is hiding in Swiss bank and how much money is hiding in interest bearing accounts he surely will have a heart attack. But like I said earlier he is kept unaware and only given the very sanitized news. None of us have any good solutions for this,but we must stay with Maola.
Bensaheba. After reading some of your posts, you sound to me confused and there is a lot of contradiction. On the one hand, you accept the DAI to be the vicegerent of the Imam and the 'Hijab' to Imam and a divine being (correct me if i am wrong). And on the other hand, you believe that the DAI is ignorant and doesn't know what is going on in his community.
Either the DAI is a complete fraud ( as some of the proggies believe) or he must be knowing whats going on. We Dbs believe that he is all knowing and the reason he doesn't do anything is again, 'politics'. When the time is ripe the system will be changed as it happened in the Jamia(in case of the 4)

Jamali
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#65

Unread post by Jamali » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:42 am

Asalam Alaikum Brothers and Sisters,

A comment I would like to make with regard to TBG and Profastian.

I agree with TBG that any leader needs to be in touch with his or her own people.A true leader ensures the well being of its people and is aware of his surroundings. Bensaheba proved that Maula has curbed certain wrong practices by his own Amils and corrected the situation so he should also be aware of the type of people around him. If he knows his own people cant be trusted then why isnt he on the ground with his followers or in the event of not being there choosing a younger assistant to help in do his job and serve his people so they dont suffer?

Since Aqa Moula is a religious leader, Mr Profastian, the issue of "Politics" doesn't even arise. By virtue of him being a religious leader and "all knowing and pious" as you described him to be, why does he have to wait for change to come, as being a Dai he is a "keeper of his Flock" so he doesnt need to wait for anybody or anyone to tell him what to do. He brings in the change he wants for his people. Since "Momineen" like you and many in the community have so much love for him, why does he make his own people suffer?

Bensaheba also confirmed that written Urzi's have been written to Saifee Mahal but have been returned to the Amils instead of being forwarded to Maula. That totally indicates that the community is being lead by people other than the true followers of "Maula". Consider this: A letter meant for the Boss is sent to me to be delivered to him but i decide against giving it to him then either:
1. I have no respect for the Boss.
2. I am the Boss.

Thirdly Mr. Profastian. I personally admire your love for the "Maula". He is truly blessed to have followers like you. However in my opinion I truly believe your love for him is a "falsehood". The reason I say this is that you acknowledge indirectly that there are certain elements within the system that are spoiling the image of our Aqa Maula yet you do not do anything about it? Honestly speaking, a 'pious and virtous man like him would not think about making his own people suffer yet within your own Jamaats, u see people coming and requesting for Sabeel and Wajebaat reductions and witness the Baraat and Social Boycott that occurs for non payment. Remember the Amils are personal representatives of the "Maula" so their actions reflect those of his. So in that context if a man you so dearly love is being mis represented, u look the other way and still say you are a follower and you have undying love for Maula????

Please forgive me but my intentions are not to question your faith but to question the fact that whether you are doing justice to the same faith that you strongly believe in? Every Human being on this planet has been given a Brain to assess and do right or wrong. We as human society protect the ones we love and Mr. Profastian you can not deny that fact if you have a family. In addition you are true believer of Aqa Maula or claim to be so what happens when his esteemed name and honour is being put to test and maligned by the very same people who he has delegated to lead you? Bensaheba pointed out various instances where Aqa Maula himself has corrected wrongful practices of his Amils and brought justice to his people. Isnt it your duty to curb those same practices that he is against or is it "Partisian Believe" that you practice? This question is being put out to all the followers....... Honestly deep down in your heart...the man you truly admire and love and who has done so much for you is being misrepresented by the Amils and Local Goons, What are you doing for his name and honour?????
**** Did Aqa Maula make Sabeel and Wajebaat compulsory and mentioned that you had to pay whatever was demanded of you or did he say that pay what ever you are able to????? ****
**** Did Aqa Maula say that Dadhi, Topi and RIda are our identity and I WOULD BE HAPPY if you could keep it or did he say that it is compulsory????******
**** A Man of such stature and Virtues like Aqa Maula whose love for his people is endless would ever think of BARAAT or SOCIAL BOYCOTT or is this a misrepresentation of the Amils*** If its the later why are the followers allowing Maula to be mis-represented ?????????

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#66

Unread post by profastian » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:49 am

Jamali wrote:Asalam Alaikum Brothers and Sisters,

A comment I would like to make with regard to TBG and Profastian.

I agree with TBG that any leader needs to be in touch with his or her own people.A true leader ensures the well being of its people and is aware of his surroundings. Bensaheba proved that Maula has curbed certain wrong practices by his own Amils and corrected the situation so he should also be aware of the type of people around him. If he knows his own people cant be trusted then why isnt he on the ground with his followers or in the event of not being there choosing a younger assistant to help in do his job and serve his people so they dont suffer?

Since Aqa Moula is a religious leader, Mr Profastian, the issue of "Politics" doesn't even arise. By virtue of him being a religious leader and "all knowing and pious" as you described him to be, why does he have to wait for change to come, as being a Dai he is a "keeper of his Flock" so he doesnt need to wait for anybody or anyone to tell him what to do. He brings in the change he wants for his people. Since "Momineen" like you and many in the community have so much love for him, why does he make his own people suffer?
Dear Mr. Jamali. Policitics is an essential, in fact the essential lesson taught by the Imam to the DAI. and it has everthing.. everthing to do with religion. You can't
live in a vacuum in this world. You have to adapt with the changes of time and circumstances. When the circumstances would change, the wrongs would be
righted. But evil can't be put to rest completely( as it is within not without). So some problems will be there always(especially as it is Daur-us-Satr, there will be lots of problems. The test
is to remain with the DAI, despite the problems. that is what Daur-us-Satr is for).

Jamali
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#67

Unread post by Jamali » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:06 pm

Dear Mr. Jamali. Policitics is an essential, in fact the essential lesson taught by the Imam to the DAI. and it has everthing.. everthing to do with religion. You can't
live in a vacuum in this world. You have to adapt with the changes of time and circumstances. When the circumstances would change, the wrongs would be
righted. But evil can't be put to rest completely( as it is within not without). So some problems will be there always(especially as it is Daur-us-Satr, there will be lots of problems. The test
is to remain with the DAI, despite the problems. that is what Daur-us-Satr is for).


Dear Mr. Profastian,

Thank you for admitting Politics Exist in the Community :) However does it have place in this world and Religion? I doubt. True Islam I believe, is devoid of such. Again what is Politics? Isnt it a human creation? Isnt it a means of self interest?
Within the religious settings, I dont think any of the Prophets and Imams practiced Politics. Politics was created by the people around them. If Dai has been appointed by the Imam, I dont believe "Aqa Maula" was taught of such a thing. These are Pious and Virtous people whose service is for Almighty Allah and a person who follows these virtues as such doesnt need Knowledge or Use of Politics :) It is only human beings like us who have incorporated this vice.

You also mention that "You have to adapt with the changes of time and circumstances. When the circumstances would change, the wrongs would be
righted. But evil can't be put to rest completely( as it is within not without). So some problems will be there always"


So you rightfully agree with "Evils" existing within the community:) You also adapt with the changes of time and circumstances to accept this Evil till the time it gets to rest completely by "Someone / something but you" because you yourself are just "adapting" to it so wont do much about it :) Isnt that being abit self-centered and selfish? Isnt that partisian beliefs?

Also Your Dai is all knowing and Just..Why does he let this happen to a secluded part of the community? I mean for those in the place of Amils and his Chamchas who are considered "Evil", they get away ripping the fellow community members and these members cant say anything because of "Fear" and because fellow members like you prefer to "Adapt" to the current Enviroment.

Lastly Mr. Profastian isnt it Hypocracy to the "Highest Order" that you are ready to fight for the honour and name of the "Aqa Maula" against so called "Reformists" who some I agree abuse Maula which should not be the case or others who prefer to stay out of the community then bow down to such injustices but when it comes to fighting for the honour and name of the Aqa Maula "within" the community you just adapt to the Enviroment and circumstances and wait for change to come? How appropriate your beliefs are that the true enemies of Aqa Maula are those who use his name to enhance their self interests yet you chose to support that????

Mr.Profastian, the truth of the matter at hand is this...The so called change you are waiting for has not occurred for years and will not occur in the coming years too. These atrocities and demands have existed since 70's and beyond that and it only gets worst. Its a known fact that "Money and Power" have made even the "rightous" corrupt and you see that in every aspect of life, in every society. Change can only be brought by the Leader or the People. In the case of "Aqa Maula" unless a true miracle occurs, I doubt that happening as since Seventies he has been at the helm of things and things have just gotten worst. When it comes to the people, well when "Adaptation of the Enviroment" and "FEAR" becomes their way of life, we can only expect the worst.

With this i leave you to think of the future of yourself, your family and children and Community at large but foremost on your "faith and love" for your Aqa Maula and whether indeed you are a true follower!

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#68

Unread post by mumin » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:04 pm

behn saheba and Jamali; Salams. it gives me an inner satisfaction of knowing that there are people like youselves in the community that are aware of the corruption. To fight for the truth is individual. why don't you start a movement to workfor honesty.
it is a tough climb, but some one has to take the first step and lead the way for our future generation.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#69

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:33 am

mumin wrote: why don't you start a movement to workfor honesty.
it is a tough climb, but some one has to take the first step and lead the way for our future generation.
Aao movement movement khailain (Lets play movement movement) :D :o :lol: :mrgreen: You guys are a joke.
And psuedo-bensehaba i hope you get your butt kicked out of the community soon. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#70

Unread post by incredible » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:23 am

profastian wrote:
mumin wrote: why don't you start a movement to workfor honesty.
it is a tough climb, but some one has to take the first step and lead the way for our future generation.
Aao movement movement khailain (Lets play movement movement) :D :o :lol: :mrgreen: You guys are a joke.
And psuedo-bensehaba i hope you get your butt kicked out of the community soon. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

getting butt kicked out of community is not the solution for the problem,there is some serious issues in DB community but to which level it has extended is still to be found out.

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#71

Unread post by mumin » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:51 pm

from the writings of behen saheba we know for sure that the zadas are the filth of our bohra society. what surprizes me the utmost is that young girls and married women flock to these zadas to kiss their hands and feet and give away money in salams. I wonder what is going through the mind of the zadas wife i.e. the zadi's.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#72

Unread post by incredible » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:28 am

mumin wrote:from the writings of behen saheba we know for sure that the zadas are the filth of our bohra society. what surprizes me the utmost is that young girls and married women flock to these zadas to kiss their hands and feet and give away money in salams. I wonder what is going through the mind of the zadas wife i.e. the zadi's.

may be this bhensahaba is one of those tortured "zadis"

bensaheba
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:01 pm

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#73

Unread post by bensaheba » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:21 pm

Dear Incredible: Thanks for your support. I am not a tortured Zadi but I am torturing myself with grief about what is going on in the name of religion. We have far transgressed from the path of religion that was practiced by our forefathers & mothers. It seems to me that our religion has evolved in last 100 years so drastically that even the 50th dai would not recognize it as his own let alone the 3rd Dai Syedna Hatim AQ. The cancer that has crept in is the slave mentality instilled in public's mind by the clergy at the behest of the hierarchy of the religion. Syedna in his vaez calls us his dosto, farzando but the hierarch insists that we call ourselves Abdes and Amtes. There is no way to access Aqa Maola directly even for us let alone regular mumin, my granfather used to tell us that he remembers sitting knee to knee with Syedna Abdullah Badruddin Saheb (50th dai), Can you do that now? Impossible. I only hope and pray that this evolution stops and somewhat reverses soon.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#74

Unread post by accountability » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:40 pm

Bensahiba: Let me welcome you on this forum, I have been reading your posts since last month, do forgive me for my skepticism, If you are from baite zaini or royal family, you would know them from inside. All bhaisahebs are not that intimate or infuential so are the bensahebas.
I do appreciate your compassion and philanthropy, which has been so deliberately wiped from amongst us, that you would never find one philanthropist in our bohra community.
we have been made so selfish and self centered that our families, friends and near ones mean nothing to us. we would robotically give to jamat though we couldn't afford it, but would seldom lend a helping hand to our loved and near ones in direst of circumtances.
As I say that religions do not and can not stand the test of truthfulness, therefore to find any truth and honesty in a cult seems impossible. But mind it, cults do not survive without cult personality. If you do concur that bohra religion has become a cult, which in fact exhibits the literal meaning of the cult, then the cult has to have a cult personality.
Syedna Saheb in his sermons has never denounced the activities of his sons, nephews, brothers or even kothar.
look when the other day on zikra, a poor lady died, tens injured, why didn't he instruct his deewan to atleast send some condolence message to berieved family. The only thing mumineen.org displayed was bushra, khushi. Burhani Gaurds who were responsible for arrangements were not taken to task, rather there is a headline from bgi with same rhetorical overtunes.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#75

Unread post by profastian » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:14 am

bensaheba wrote:Dear Incredible: Thanks for your support. I am not a tortured Zadi but I am torturing myself with grief about what is going on in the name of religion. We have far transgressed from the path of religion that was practiced by our forefathers & mothers. It seems to me that our religion has evolved in last 100 years so drastically that even the 50th dai would not recognize it as his own let alone the 3rd Dai Syedna Hatim AQ. The cancer that has crept in is the slave mentality instilled in public's mind by the clergy at the behest of the hierarchy of the religion. Syedna in his vaez calls us his dosto, farzando but the hierarch insists that we call ourselves Abdes and Amtes. There is no way to access Aqa Maola directly even for us let alone regular mumin, my granfather used to tell us that he remembers sitting knee to knee with Syedna Abdullah Badruddin Saheb (50th dai), Can you do that now? Impossible. I only hope and pray that this evolution stops and somewhat reverses soon.
There are more than half a million mumineen out there. Please give me a way how maula can sit knee to knee with everyone of them.
Religion has not evolved one bit, only the means of practicing it have evolved, as they should with the passage of time and changes of circumstances.
As maula said
'Jewa hata, aawaaj aawi gaya'

Think about it.

accountability
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#76

Unread post by accountability » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:08 pm

You are right, syedna saheb cannot reach directly to a million or so followers. We dont expect him to, with all super divinity claims, it is not possible. But the issue can be easily addressed by having elected jamats to the level of secretaries. Amil understandably appointed by dai as his representative.
Elected jamats will neither be unislamic, nor against sahria. The only thing it will do is to bring accountability to office bearer. They will be obliged to work for the benefit of electrorate, and all this money grabing, corruption, rowdiness and arrogance will be gone. Even amil will be real representative of syedna saheb and in his service for his follower.
Since last 100 years, the centeralized power structure as bensaheba put it, has changed the nomenclature of our religion. Only God can be God, none other can on this earth or in heaven above.

profastian
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#77

Unread post by profastian » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:20 am

accountability wrote: Since last 100 years, the centeralized power structure as bensaheba put it, has changed the nomenclature of our religion. Only God can be God, none other can on this earth or in heaven above.
Our god is the same God, as 100 years ago. Only the level of "marefat' has increased.

accountability
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#78

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:22 am

What about elected jamaats, do you concur if not why.

profastian
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#79

Unread post by profastian » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:17 am

accountability wrote:What about elected jamaats, do you concur if not why.
An elected jamaat to do what? Can u give me a detailed picture of what their rights and responsibilities would be?

accountability
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#80

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:44 am

Exactly the same as jamaat are doing today, running day to day affairs of that jamaat, taking care of collection of sabil and disbursements. They will not have any say in religious affairs, as that be the prerogative of amil being the representative of Syedna.
Helping jamaat members in various functions.

Humsafar
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#81

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:02 pm

Just want to add to accnty's post: all reformist jamaats have elected managing committee which is responsible for collecting funds, keeping the accounts, running of jamaat affaris, organising functions and other events. What is most important is that the managing committee acts within the purview of the jamaat constitution and is accountable to the public. The jamaat accounts are made public every year, everything is transparent. A new managing committee is elected every few years.

profastian
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#82

Unread post by profastian » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:09 am

accountability wrote:Exactly the same as jamaat are doing today, running day to day affairs of that jamaat, taking care of collection of sabil and disbursements. They will not have any say in religious affairs, as that be the prerogative of amil being the representative of Syedna.
Helping jamaat members in various functions.
Do you consider the collection of Zakat and other Wajebats as religious activities? I certainly do. So then these activities should be conducted by the Amil as they are done today.

accountability
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#83

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:18 am

I did not say that elected jamat will collect zakat, it will be bait ul maal who will collect. But sabeel is not religious, it is administrative expenditure, right now every jamat collects it in their own name, and they spend it as they wish. Because there is no accountability or transparency sabeel is not spent properly. If we were to have elected jamat then sabeel will first not rise every year, because most of our jamats are charitable organizations, who do not pay taxes, so tax increase is not an excuse, in canada utilities are subsidized for charities so there is no justification in raising sabeel almost every year.

I hope this will clarify, my proposal is very innocent, will not interfere in religious hegemony of dawat, yet will give some voice to masses and ordinary bohras. I tell you, every monarchy has survived by ceding power to masses, the ones which stuck to totaliterianism were gone, latest is Nepal.

Even in iran, where they have similar to our administration, (they have wilayat e faqih) they have elections on all levels, city, provincial, and federal.

Humsafar
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#84

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:03 am

profastian wrote:Do you consider the collection of Zakat and other Wajebats as religious activities? I certainly do. So then these activities should be conducted by the Amil as they are done today.
The Amil has no right or justification to collect zakat. As a religious duty it up to individual Muslim to distribute zakat as they see fit. Ideally, money ought to be kept at a safe distance from mullahs, but in our idyllic world of Dawat, mullahs eat, drink and breathe money. Religion is a big, bloody scam to make it all possible and make it look halal. And abdes don't have a clue.

candela
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#85

Unread post by candela » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:08 pm

Humsafar wrote:The Amil has no right or justification to collect zakat. As a religious duty it up to individual Muslim to distribute zakat as they see fit. Ideally, money ought to be kept at a safe distance from mullahs, but in our idyllic world of Dawat, mullahs eat, drink and breathe money. Religion is a big, bloody scam to make it all possible and make it look halal. And abdes don't have a clue.
I suspect that some Bohris (like some of my relatives) believe that you can incur sin if your zakat gets distributed to the wrong hands, thus it must go to the Amils, who would get the zakat to Dr. B or to the right hands. The irony is that paper bills might be better off being composted than entering the hands of those clerics who take the money and do whatnot with it offering no account of how it's being used!

mumin
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#86

Unread post by mumin » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:31 am

that money and much more is used to better themselves and their children. Their chidren study in schools in switzerland ,and they have beautiful homes in France, germany,Italay, England, switzerland etc. one should visit the Dai's bangalow in cairo. This fancy bangalow is kept locked all of the year accept when the Dai visits Cairo. but several Egyptian servants are on the pay roll all year round.

MuffadalMK
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#87

Unread post by MuffadalMK » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:30 am

I agree with guy_sam2005 cause i have experienced it, 5 years back my whole Family used to live in Makkah we were thr for almost 15 years and my father for 20 he was in Khidmat actually our whole family was in Khidmat at that time even at the time of Hajj my dad and i we both use to perform our khidmat in Mawaeed and in transportation as he had his coaster van thr we use to have our own shop thr but a local Arab took everything and we even didn't had money to buy some breads at that time my mom and dad went to Rubaat to seek some help we asked them to help us with some money so that we can go back to India but they would say that we have to write an application to Kothar. after writing application we received help but the amil refused and said that they haven't receive any reply frm Kothar...we came to know all this from a local Shaikh he told us that the Amil is having Reply form kothar ...later some how my father arranged to come to India alone here in India he came to a small village near Ratlam M.P where my grand parents used to live so thr he started his business later after a year we came to India...after coming here we found that my dad is going in Hindu Mandirs and he even went to amarnath yatraa, we came to know this form a neighbor and one day some of the Jamat Members came to our home and told my father that amil is calling him i also went with my dad to amil he told him that he have to leave all this practice or otherwise he would Boycott (Barat) our whole family my father said that he is not practicing all this cause he is one of them he said that his doing this all because he is with BJP a (Political Party) (he was working with them and he was Nagar Mantri), and he said that this nothing to do with my family they haven't done any thing wrong so why would they suffer, and during the Ramadan when we went in musjit no one would talk to us and when we went in jamatkhana no one would offer us food and all the Thaal members refused us to be sited with them so for almost one year my whole family was going under the same than we decided to go to Mumbai to talk in Badri Mahal there we mat Ali Asger Bhai Sahab he is in-charge of M.P we told him about this and he said that the member of jamat has given him an application in which it is written that our family is performing poojas and going to Mandir and he showed my father a photo as a proof the photo was of my dad Standing near Amarnath so he said if all the Members give a new application in which they take all their accusations we came back in our village we went to members and they refused they said that my dad have to write an application to in which he should apologize disobeying all the members and Amil my dad was ok with this application so written an application and went to Amil all the members were there than they said he have to pay all the wajebats which are not given by my grand parents and uncles (grand parents couldn’t pay wajebat cause they had no business and they died after they died all uncles went away and left the house), my dad didn’t had that much money and he said that he would pay it in installments and they refused my father became angry he quarreled with them and he also abused the whole system after and this turned in to fighting they started beating him and told us that never come to us now u n ur family have to leave this village after this my father started to practice more and more he use to do poojas and never would pray and he said that we should all convert our religion but we refused …later 2 years now we r in Indore M.P and my dad lives in the Village we had to separate from our dad cause started acting like hindu…now I don’t perform any khidmat in any occasion I just go to musjit and than back to home cause we got nothing from this Bhohra Samaj but still there are some good people in this Samaj all I would say is that Mola doesn’t know any thing about all this wrong things which are taking place all the amils and members have made it all dirty and no one can reform it …..

mumineen
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#88

Unread post by mumineen » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Last week, on one of the eves of the Eid-ul-Fitar, families who had NOT yet paid their Waajebaats, were urgently summoned by the Toronto/Mississauga Ontario Canada Amils or their sidekick chamchas, to go immediately to the respective Darulimaarats to pay up with "or else... warnings."

People from as far as St. Catharines and Hamilton (which are approximately 100 kms or so proximity). One of them was an old disabled widow living by herself in Hamilton. We understand that she had to take an expensive cab ride at night to reach the extortionsits to frantically to pay up, despite the khotharis knowing about her condition. There were also other victims from St. Catharines, Hamilton and other areas who had fallen preys to the cruel and inhuman extortion fatwas from the
so-called khidmatguzaars and ayaans during the Holy Month of Ramzaan - and after Ishaa at late night.

There is a limit to the greed and oppression. May Allah punish these inhuman brutes for their brutal acts on the gullible here on this earth and in aakhiraat..Ameen.

Aarif
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#89

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:16 pm

This year in Mumbai in Santacruz and Khar masjids where my family members go they were asked to show the proof of whether they have paid all their dues or not. If someone had not paid his\her dues he\she was not allowed inside the masjid. It seems that the state of affairs in our community is getting worst by each passing day.

mumineen
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Re: Problems in USA,Canada and UK jamaats

#90

Unread post by mumineen » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:26 pm

The Kothari Bohris' new motto: "PAY US BEFORE YOU PRAY"