Where do they get these Amil Sahebs

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Shahzada = Son of King<p>Shahzadi = Daughter of King<p>This emphasis on Qubas and Zaris etc are a medieval chain-letter thing. You get money from people and build them, then they come and spend more money ad infinitum. That way people are strengthened in faith. Fools!!

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In Arabic, Shah is Malik.<br>So Shahzada is Ibn Malik.<br>And Shahzadi is Bint Malik.<p>Maula = Leader (Male)<br>Maula(t) = Leader (Female). That is 'ta marbuta' Like closed ha with two dots (nukta) on it.<p><br>Maula_na = our leader (male)<p>Maulat_na = our leader (female)<p>Mauala_ii = my leader (male)<p>Maulat_ii = my leader (female)

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Dear Porus,<br>thanks for clarifying. In your description, the emphasis is on Shah...not based on son or daughter. Thus to call someone shahzada (son of king) doesn't elevate the position of the person but describes the person in relations to the Shah. If I am wrong please correct my understanding.<p>Regarding the word mawla...mawla has several definitions in arabic: master, leader, patron, friend. It depends on the context that it is used.<p>I also find it strange that you would call a person who builds a tomb around a revered personage...and those that go there as fools. Did not the Prophet visit graves of his family daily and recommended people to at least go on Fridays. The qubas and zarihs are more for protection of the tombs. No one tells you to put money into the endeavor nor into any ghalas at these mazars.

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Dear Qiyam,<p>Shahzada/Shahzadi means Prince/Princess.<p>You may also call these Shazadas, Their Royal Highnesses. If you did not call them shazadas etc, they would be most upset. After all Allah himself has given them the privilege of being born to a King. And you can depend on an Amil to give you an explanation of their status from the Quran. Next time you will hear them connecting their names' 'adad' with Sura/Ayat.<p>Qiyam = Qaf + Ya + Mim = 100 + 10 + 40 = 150 or 151, if you add Alif. Look up Ayat 150 or 151 of any Sura which has it. But it only applies if you are Ibn Malik.<p>Those who build these Qubbas and Zaris are the clever ones. It is those who think their faith requires these that are the fools.<p>Hindus have been doing it for milleniums. Priest builds a temple and then expects people to come and put money on the altar. No prize for guessing how the priest uses the money. A miracle or two helps along the way of fleecing the stupid and credulous.<p>I recommend you see a Hindi movie called 'Parakh', that was made in the 1950's. The insightful movie depicts struggle of local dignitaries to obtain funds for their projects like school, hospital, mandir etc. Money would be given to only one project by a philanthropist. In a climactic scene, the priest engineers a miracle by burying boiling grams under the ground. On top of the grams, he put a murti of Krishna. When chana boiled and expanded, the murti broke through the ground. He got the money. And the mandir became a place for pilgrimage.<p>Christ Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within. Fools think he meant within the body of Jesus. Crap!!

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Dear Qiyam:<p>You are mixing different issues to justify your answers and then fell in your own trap.<p>Your answer regarding setting a precedence of fasting: why do you quote example of fasting while we are talking about monetary matter? Can you quote a single example where Syedna gave money to his followers from his own deep pocket? Please don’t quote examples of his false verbal commitments, which he makes every now and then to fool simple masses. Has something ever came out of his personal might for Ummah in general and for Bohras in particular?<br> <br>Perhaps it is not the written policy of jamaat to make amils from Bait-e-Zainee. But look at the list of amils posted at different lucrative stations. You will find most of them are from Bait-e-Zainee. This is how he maintains peace within his own family.<p>Where did in my post mentioned that Tamim Bhai Saheb was the amil of Jeddah Jamaat? I didn’t even mentioned about his departure from Jeddah what I mentioned was the forceful extradition of many noble bohras? I know quite a few of them. They paid the penalty of misdeeds of others?<p>In the same post I mentioned that Bangkok Jamaat officials closely scrutinized all submittals of Sheikh Saifuddin and ask him for explanation. Only after that he flee the country.<p>Regarding my first question: So you admitted that he acts and pretends as a King. This is why he distributes Khilats and Titles to his Chamchas and creates classes among his own people whom he call his children day in and day out. Otherwise he could have asked his followers to not use such titles at the first place.<p>Regarding question 2 & 3: It seems that your knowledge about Islamic history is pretty poor. Is that right?<p>Brother opens your eyes. Argue with reasons not with ignorance. If this is the case our ISLAF (insisters) could have been Mushriq and so do as well.<br>

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Dear Porus,<br>Your analysis of shazadas and shazadis is a bit more extrapolated then it deserves. The Qasre Ali is not renown for there birthrites...but their knowledge. You will rarely hear of them, other than by there accomplishment/knowledge or khidmat..others are a bit of academic trivia.<p>And regarding your analysis of the reality of the purpose of qubas and zarih...I think your the fool. Let see...I can either take your words of analysis (baseless as they are) or the Prophet's words..who said those that come to his qabar for with sincerity and make dua...will surely have there dua answered by Allah. You may remember the tradition of the Prophet I quoted regarding the barakat of visiting and saying salams on graves of the dead from other threads.

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Dear Sajid,<p>"Your answer regarding setting a precedence of fasting: why do you quote example of fasting while we are talking about monetary matter?"<p>--If you read the first paragraph of your post your were not talking money specifically but in general: "When leader himself never set precedence how these Amils could set such precedence." In addition, there are thousands of occassion where Sayedna gave money to the muminin. Ever heard of Qarza Hasana trust at the local jamat. Every jamat that has this, was first given money by Maulana (tus) to start it...typically from US$100,000 to larger amounts in India/Pakistan.<p>"Perhaps it is not the written policy of jamaat to make amils from Bait-e-Zainee. But look at the list of amils posted at different lucrative stations. You will find most of them are from Bait-e-Zainee. This is how he maintains peace within his own family."<p>---Apparently the list you see is very incomplete. In fact, not one shahzada is an amil. They mainly hold positions in institutions like Director of the Jamia, Head of the Mahad al'Zahra, etc. Please read a little more.<p>"Where did in my post mentioned that Tamim Bhai Saheb was the amil of Jeddah Jamaat?"<p>--I apologize, I assumed since your were talking about amils that he was the one in Jeddah/Mecca. I didn't remember the name of the amil in Jeddah/Mecca...but I do know he was removed from that position within the past 2-3 years, which is why I replyed so.<p>"Regarding my first question: So you admitted that he acts and pretends as a King. This is why he distributes Khilats and Titles to his Chamchas and creates classes among his own people whom he call his children day in and day out. Otherwise he could have asked his followers to not use such titles at the first place."<p>---He is only refered to properly as Maula or Aqa Maula or Sayedna. None of which mean king. Secondly, to call him Shah is the context that it is typically used is meant in the manner of Mawla or Sayedna. Imam Husayn is refered to in some marithyas as Shahenshah as'Sayyida. I would think the writer was not eluding to Imam Husayn as king (although he may deserve that title).<p>"Regarding question 2 & 3: It seems that your knowledge about Islamic history is pretty poor. Is that right?"<p>---No...actually it is very concise...I responded so to evaluate your knowledge. I don't accept people blanket statement as truth. On this board..most have this habit of making blanket statement, with little if any truth to them. Please don't make general statements like that. Please provide some evidence to that statements you've made. I will remind you as a background that the official coins at the time were gold/silver dinars.<p>"Brother opens your eyes. Argue with reasons not with ignorance. If this is the case our ISLAF (insisters) could have been Mushriq and so do as well."<p>---My eyes are very open...I neither accept your arguements nor that of the amil/bhaisahab/mullah without proper support. Your accusing them and Maulana of something...prove your accusations are based on something. In the two examples of person over stretching their limits that you gave...both were reprimanded. And as you stated regarding the Khotar was heresay or guess.

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Qiyam,<p>"Ever heard of Qarza Hasana trust at the local jamat. Every jamat that has this, was first given money by Maulana (tus) to start it...typically from US$100,000 to larger amounts in India/Pakistan."<p>You are completely wrong on this. The money was first given to the Maulana by the Jamaat. He is merely giving some of it back, and based on his lavish lifestyle and less deservedly, that of several generations of his extended family, obviously a very small portion is given back (you do the math).<p>He does not have the courtesy to say that the jamaan is from the Jamaat, instead it is "Maula na taraf see".<p>All the donations from the Jamaat should be spent on the betterment of the community, after paying for his reasonable and comfortable upkeep.<p>That is if this community is a religious entity, and not a cult.<br>

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Dear Believer,<p>Am I wrong? Based on what am I wrong? What info do you have...beside your guesses and hypothesises of what actually happens?<p>Before making claims based on rumors..get some facts.

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> Imam Husayn is refered to in some marithyas as Shahenshah as'Sayyida. I would think the writer was not eluding to Imam Husayn as king<p>So, I think there is a difference in quality between bestowing an honorary title on someone such as Emperor of Lords (never heard that one before) and being given a title due to a blood relation.<p>Therein, I would say, lies the objection. The term "prince" or "princess" as applies to syedna's kin has absolutely nothing to do with the individual's personal accomplishments. That does not mean that none of these people have done anything worthwhile (I'm sure at least some must bear significant jamaat-related responsibilities), but no layman who rivalled such accomplishments would ever be a "Shahzada". It is therefore specifically a term denoting royalty and familial proximity to syedna. Correct me if I am wrong about this.<p>Islam is, and should be, a Way of equality and fraternity. I see no reason why a great scholar cannot or should not be showered with praise and respect, but that is a far cry from being accorded respect because of who you are related to.<p>Stepping away from the royal family, of whom I have no personal experience, I can say that I have witnessed this phenomenon at lower levels; small children receive salaams and what I can only call obeisance from much older individuals just by virtue of being the bhaisaheb's son. Under no circumstances can that be reasonable. While I would agree that there is no solicitation of such behaviour, I do feel that it is, by virtue of not being discouraged, tacitly encouraged.<p>Why is a young boy who has not lived long enough to accomplish anything of note accorded the same regard and respect as an accomplished scholar?<br>Salaam

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Qiyam,<p>Before you lose whatever credibility you may have left on this board, please confirm this.<p>Are you really saying that the Dai's money is not coming from the community ? You need proof ! How about the FACT that the guy was never gainfully employed other than as a Dai ? Better yet, show me proof that anyone in two generations of his immediate family has ?<p>This is getting ludicrous...<p>

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Br Qiyam always had the most foolish story to tell. <p>I think he should stop lying on this board and end his stupid story/reasoning. He only fools himself. <p>I am sure Br Qiyam has more things in his life then spending time making up story that are simple unbelievable to believe. <p>Every bohra Knows very well what Moula, Mullahs, amils and haramzada are doing.<p>NO ONE IS BLIND, Qiyam. YOU can talk anything you want. But At the end of day, we are still going to see these people looting our community.

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Dear Khairan,<br>It is an assumed denotation that you would refer to them as prince or princess..in the matter of the royalty of Europe; a function of mere translation. Maulatena Sherabanu, the wife of Imam Husayn, was the shahzadi of the Shah of Persia. Note the stark contrast between being a wife of an Imam and mother of an Imam versus that status of shahzadi (as a princess).<p>"So, I think there is a difference in quality between bestowing an honorary title on someone such as Emperor of Lords (never heard that one before) and being given a title due to a blood relation."<p>---The crux of the thing is...are these royal titles or signatures of relations. They are not royalty in the sense of European monarchs are regarded. This is why I gave the example of Imam Husayn. He was regarded as the Imam of Islam not a Shah...though in some elogies..the term Shah is used.<p>"Therein, I would say, lies the objection. The term "prince" or "princess" as applies to syedna's kin has absolutely nothing to do with the individual's personal accomplishments. That does not mean that none of these people have done anything worthwhile (I'm sure at least some must bear significant jamaat-related responsibilities), but no layman who rivalled such accomplishments would ever be a "Shahzada". It is therefore specifically a term denoting royalty and familial proximity to syedna. Correct me if I am wrong about this."<p>Is Sayedna typically called Shah? No. So what automatic recognition should I give to some using the reference title of shahzada. No more than I would give to any bhaisahib. The term shahzada means son of shah...so even the least educated member of Sayedna's family would have this reference. It is some persons that give this reference an automatic "royal" status.<p><br>"Islam is, and should be, a Way of equality and fraternity. I see no reason why a great scholar cannot or should not be showered with praise and respect, but that is a far cry from being accorded respect because of who you are related to."<p>---This statement is very thin. Very few persons accord respect just by being related to Sayedna. If a survey were taken...how many know of more than three members of Sayedna's family. I say three, because three members are very accomplished..as so most will know of them.<p>"..I can say that I have witnessed this phenomenon at lower levels; small children receive salaams and what I can only call obeisance from much older individuals just by virtue of being the bhaisaheb's son."<p>---It is not reasonable..and it happens in specific jamats for specific reasons. In the jamats I have be to in India...I did not see it happen. This leads me to believe it is not the norm or a custom.

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Dear Believer,<p>"Are you really saying that the Dai's money is not coming from the community?"<p>---No I did not say this. But this money (Nadhir Maqam and part of the Khums) is also the rightfully the Imam az'Zaman; in his ghaybat..it would go to his rep. the Dai.<p>Qiyam,<br>Before you lose whatever credibility you may have left on this board, please confirm this.<p>"How about the FACT that the guy was never gainfully employed other than as a Dai? Better yet, show me proof that anyone in two generations of his immediate family has?"<p>---Did you read my point that no member of the family is an amil of a jamat. Each one is appointed to position based on their qualification..such as director of Jamia, director of Mahad al'Zahra, etc. Pray tell me what you think the director of Al'Azhar makes a year???<br>

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Dear Jinx,<br>Again I take issue with your statement of me lying. I have asked before to quote me lying on this boards. If I have made a incorrect statement..I am more than willing to be corrected. Either do this or stop instinuating libel.

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Br Qiyam: I read your postings for the past two days & I just can't help supporting sister Jinx- Your answers don't make any sense at all=Well you are getting some more corrupt Amils added on your list!

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Qiyam,<p>Oh, your story now is that the money is "rightfully the Imam az'Zaman's". So when he comes back from hiding it goes back to him right ? Who is keeping account in the meantime, the Enron accountant's ?<p>Well I am making progress, you did finally agree that it is the community's money.<p>One small step at a time......

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"Pray tell me what you think the director of Al'Azhar makes a year???"<p>Not enough to go to Safaris in Africa or travel to Europe, and the US with family & Daddy.

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> So what automatic recognition should I give to some using the reference title of shahzada. No more than I would give to any bhaisahib. <p>Note that "bhaisaheb" also is a term having directly to do with relation to Syedna, again a practice I find problematic.<p>>The term shahzada means son of shah...so even the least educated member of Sayedna's family would have this reference. <p>Exactly. Why does someone deserve an honorific just because of who they are related to? I am not conviced that it is purely a descriptive term and nothing more - I'm sure many descriptive terms that do not imply royalty and nobility could be used but are not.<p>>It is some persons that give this reference an automatic "royal" status.<p>As has been pointed out, shahzada literally means prince. Thus, the royal status of the term is explicit in the meaning, it is not wrongfully assumed by some mistaken few. If it was not the intention to imply royal status, why use the term at all? <p>My point is that language is a powerful thing -- one cannot argue that the pointed use of titles of nobility to refer to Syedna's family is simply an innocuous matter which some people take too seriously. In common parlance, sydena's family is the royal family, his brothers and sons, sisters and daughters, are princes and princesses. <br>Such language implies class distinction and social heirarchy in a society which eschews such things, and accords status for what seems like no good reason at all.<p>You've said that you don't feel these terms accord any undue status and are in fact purely descriptive. Why, then, the specific terms? If syedna is not a king, why are his relations princes and princesses? <p>Salaams

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Royal associations also go with:<p>Qasr Aali = High Palace (As high as God, of course)<p>Bayt Zaini = Ornate House = Palace<p>Sayedna is also known as Sultan al-Bohra, another Royal denomination.<br>

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This is an old (seventies) story of an Amil in Dar es Salaam, related to me by someone who was there at the time.<p>There was a custom to hold auction of items donated by community members shortly after Aashura. A woman from Mitahiwala family's last wish, before she died, was to donate all her jewellery for auction. She had requested her family members to buy back the jewellery at the highest bidding. The money would then be put in Imam Husain's galla, a box for donations.<p>Mitahiwala gave the jewellery to Soneilwala, the amil for safe custody until the auction was held. Amil was also told of the dying person's wish to buy the jewellery back at the auction.<p>When the items did not appear at the auction, Mithaiwala asked the Amil as to what had happened to the jewellery. Amil replied that his wife had liked the jewellery so much that she had decided to keep it and instead had already deposited an appropriate sum in Imam Hussain's galla.<p>Mithaiwala was not satisfied and started legal proceedings against the Amil, who absconded before the matter came to court and jewellery is still missing.<p>Soneilwala was succeeded by another tyrannical amil, who was nicknamed Fu Manchu.<p>Anyone from DaresSalaam, please corroborate this story.

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I am told that London's Amil, called Idris, has been nicknamed Iblis for his corrupt and tyrannical ways. I have heard nasty stories about him but am not able to verify. Anyone know any anecdote?

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Dear Believer,<br>"Oh, your story now is that the money is "rightfully the Imam az'Zaman's". So when he comes back from hiding it goes back to him right ? Who is keeping account in the meantime, the Enron accountant's ?"<p>---If you followed any of my post from before regarding these types of topics...I have always stated the money is for Imam az'Zaman...and as the Dai is his representative...he uses as he wishes in the same manner the Imam would. The accounting you ask for is none of your business. He is not an elected public official responsible to you.<p>"Well I am making progress, you did finally agree that it is the community's money."<p>---I have agreed to nothing you've stated. It is rightful money that the Dai receives...and it is his choice to use in the manner he does.<p>Maybe this example will open your eyes to see the difference: Your paycheck is not your employer's money after giving to you.<p>It is you who needs to "bone up" on religious practice and historical practice.<p>And your comment regarding Al'Azhar is a total guess..which fall in line with most of your understanding of religion.

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Dear Khairan,<br>"Note that "bhaisaheb" also is a term having directly to do with relation to Syedna, again a practice I find problematic."<p>---Actually, no. Vast majority of bhaisahibs are not related to Sayedna.<p>"Exactly. Why does someone deserve an honorific just because of who they are related to? I am not conviced that it is purely a descriptive term and nothing more - I'm sure many descriptive terms that do not imply royalty and nobility could be used but are not."<p>---This is useless argument. You have accepted the notion of shahzada being a honorific title..though it is not.<p>As has been pointed out, shahzada literally means prince.<p>---No it doesn't...it means son of a king. To be a prince is also a given title.<p>"Thus, the royal status of the term is explicit in the meaning, it is not wrongfully assumed by some mistaken few. If it was not the intention to imply royal status, why use the term at all?"<p>---It is more of a destintive term...not as a status.<p>"My point is that language is a powerful thing -- one cannot argue that the pointed use of titles of nobility to refer to Syedna's family is simply an innocuous matter which some people take too seriously.<p>---The Imam's were called Shah's, in India..Raja. In you mind set, his family would be royal. Were they?

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Brother Qiyam,<p>You are exactly right. The money that goes to the Dai is his paycheck to do what he pleases. <p>That is all the kothar has to say.<p>Only problem is that, I cannot threaten my employer to pay up.

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Brother Qiyam,<p>The only person who does not realize thatyour spin is extremely easy to see through is you yourself.<p>According to the MSN Encarta definition of a prince, a prince can be..<p>1. son of monarch: a man or boy in a royal family, especially the son of a reigning king or queen<p> <br>2. man ruler: a man who rules a principality<p> <br>3. European nobleman: a nobleman in some European countries, usually ranked below a duke<p> <br>4. highly regarded man: a man or boy who is ranked highly in his field Robin Hood was the prince of thieves.<p> <br>5. generous, kind man: a man who is extremely nice, especially in a generous or chivalrous way ( informal ) <br> <br>Kindly tell me which one applies to the person in question. If none do, I would appreciate a mail from you to the encarta guys to change the definition of prince.

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Qiyam,<p>"I have always stated the money is for Imam az'Zaman...he uses as he wishes "<p>If ethics ever come in to play in your blind faith (and common sense of course) you will eventually learn that if the money is for someone else, it is not yours. <p>"I have agreed to nothing you've stated"..... so what is his source of income ? Again, you are contradicting yourself.<p>"Your paycheck is not your employer's money after giving to you"<p>So it IS A BUSINESS and not a religious charity, ...time to call the IRS ! I was merely suggesting that he account for the donations, but per your admission he is liable for quite a bit more, since he has an "employee, employer" relationship with his followers !<p><br>You are digging a VERY DEEP hole my friend

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Jinx,<p>Friends in TO inform that Zohair ex aamil, was kicked off his return flight on 911.<p>

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Dear Anajmi,<br>"Only problem is that, I cannot threaten my employer to pay up."<p>---Firstly, we don't employee the Dai...for us to "pay-up". If you wish not to adhere to him as a leader...don't! But don't use this as the excuse. God requires of us to pay zakat and khums. You can argue what you want about it..but argue with God. Regarding sabil..if you don't want to pay sabil..you cannot be a member of the jamat. This your choice. No forces you to do anything...unless you originally said you would. To go to majalis and then not assist in the running of the jamat is in fact freeloading.<p>Regarding your definition...did you read what you presented. Every definition is one created by a western idiology..which don't reflect an islamic one. The Prophet refered to Imams Hassan and Husayn as his little princes. Were they treated like princes??? I hope you see the difference and my point of view.<br>

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Brother Qiyam,<p>I am using this as an excuse for what???<p>God required us to pay zakat and khums, dai requires us to pay it to him. And to top it all, he calls it his paycheck so that he can do what he wants to with it!!<p>Its a good thing that you clarified that Sabil has nothing religious about it.<p>All defintions I wrote were created by western ideology so we need to reject them, but definitions created by your ideology?? we need to accept them.<p>I refer to my little daughter as my little princess, however I do not expect anyone else to refer to her the same way unless I believe that she actually is a princess!!!