Police investigating FGM in community

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New
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#91

Unread post by New » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:01 pm

In my opinion, this is the point where the Kothar is the most vulnerable. If we can show that the abdes are doing something, united, will make a dent leading to possibly a total break down. They are very clever with the money laundering. This crime however, can not be hidden. I live in the US and my 7 year old daughter was subjected to this in Surat. At that time I was too naive and immature. My permission was not even asked and the grand parents took this as routine.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#92

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:56 pm

Female Genital Mutilation Victims In England Could Sue Government For Not Protecting Them

Victims of female genital mutilation could sue the government for millions for failing to protect them from the barbaric practice, leading lawyers warned today. They said victims could get compensation after British authorities failed to bring a single prosecution despite FGM being criminalised three decades ago. The Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales believes the UK is in breach of its international law obligations to protect young women and girls from mutilation. Kirsty Brimelow QC, the committee’s chairwoman, said: “During the period of the UK’s breach, thousands of British girls and young women have been unnecessarily exposed to the risk of mutilation and have suffered irreparable physical and emotional damage. Many could — and should — have been saved.” The legal experts submitted a detailed report on the British authorities’ failures over FGM, including the lack of prosecution, guidance for health and social workers and education for pupils. Former Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell QC said: “This authoritative report raises fundamental questions about the government discharging its international obligations. “It may well be that victims would be entitled to sue the government.” Stephanie Harrison QC, from Garden Court Chambers, told The Standard: “There is obviously precedent for the State being sued where it has failed in its duty of care. “An obvious example is where children have been in the care of local authorities and have not been protected from physical or sexual abuse.” The final bill could run into millions if cases are successful. The Crown Prosecution Service is examining ten cases of alleged FGM with a view to bringing the first prosecution for the crime. Mayor of London Boris Johnson urged the authorities to explore further bringing a case where the victim does not have to go to court and perpetrators can be brought to justice based on evidence from health and other professionals. Campaigners against FGM today praised the Evening Standard for bringing the subject into the mainstream. Education Secretary Michael Gove has agreed to write to all schools in England about FGM and 250,000 people have signed a petition calling on him to ensure schools teach about FGM before the summer holidays — known as the “cutting season”, when girls are sent away to be mutilated. FGM survivor Nimko Ali, whose story was first revealed in the Evening Standard last February, said: “The Standard campaign started the ball rolling.”

http://ewallstreeter.com/female-genital ... them-8273/

Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#93

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:36 am

My apologies and sympathy for your situation . New are you the father or mother of your daughter. I think all fathers or mothers reading this need to know it is maTter of time when someone else gets caught out.

You may want to take legal advise around your personal circumstances but people don't understand how serious this issue is, it is within child abuse , it is not a small crime. Even after years you are obligated to report it as crime was committed in your family. Your daughter could report it anytime in the future and the case will reopen just as sexual abuse victims regularly do where wives report their husbands who have molested their children's or children accusing their parents. If you are a mother who took the child God help you if you get caught. Fathers are guilty of not reporting the mothers. Parents are guilty of not reporting the grandparents. I think people get the message it is not worth it for 21 years behind bars.

if you were in Australia , not reporting it is also a crime, a lawyer also needs to advise you to report it and then defend you from prosecution , a lawyer cannot advise you not to report it because he would become an accomplish.

Regarding SMS or a Zada and their involvement in acting aloof to the issue , the media are waiting for him to land in Australia any day to corner him to explain his lack of concern to fgm . Once the media trap them into making comments the politicians will run as far as they can so there goes photo selfies and VIP status . Bit then Bohras would be least concerned as they rarely read independent media !

M Taha
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#94

Unread post by M Taha » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:45 am

this is a personal thing, FGM has no compulsion in ISLAM neither in DAWAT, people can straight say no to these rituals if they are uncomfortable with it.

no one can push for it, its is understanding between husband and wife about what they chose for their kids.

Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#95

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:26 pm

M Taha wrote:this is a personal thing, FGM has no compulsion in ISLAM neither in DAWAT, people can straight say no to these rituals if they are uncomfortable with it.

no one can push for it, its is understanding between husband and wife about what they chose for their kids.
Can you clarify what you mean ..by what you just stated. It is not a personal choice, the parents have NO right to decide..it is a crime full stop. The decision is not based on comfort. And yes the authorities can push to stop it. The rest I will send you a PM .
.

M Taha
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#96

Unread post by M Taha » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:32 pm

Ozdundee wrote:
M Taha wrote:this is a personal thing, FGM has no compulsion in ISLAM neither in DAWAT, people can straight say no to these rituals if they are uncomfortable with it.

no one can push for it, its is understanding between husband and wife about what they chose for their kids.
Can you clarify what you mean ..by what you just stated. It is not a personal choice, the parents have NO right to decide..it is a crime full stop. The decision is not based on comfort. And yes the authorities can push to stop it. The rest I will send you a PM .
.
I was saying no one can force people to go for FGM, it is personal choice, people can decide to go for it, or refrain from it.


parents have full control over it, me and my wife have decided we wont go for FGM and no power in world can force this upon us.

FGM is not forced upon people by bohras or ISLAM in general, this is personal choice, it is same like how million teens in Australia are taking drugs and alcohol by their free will, and no one is forcing them.

M Taha
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#97

Unread post by M Taha » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:38 pm

Quraan is our text, and there is no mention of FGM what so ever, people do it for personal beliefs and may be because of lack of knowledge.

it is not compulsion in Islaam nor in bohra faith.

qutbiranglaya
Posts: 47
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#98

Unread post by qutbiranglaya » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:02 am

Tahabhai you are absolutely correct. Khatanat in Islam is not compulsory. In fact Muffi’s mother has published a book in which she clearly states that Khatanat is Rasulullah’s sunnat. Like in prayers where Faraz is compulsory but sunnat is not.

I remember my grandmother when she talked about Khatanat, the word she used was sunnat. For example she would say “ we have performed sunnat for xyz “ never Khatanat.

The Amil in Australia was wrong to force the Mumineen to perform Khatanat as if it was compulsory in Islam. This person Shabbirbhai Vaziri is now in deep trouble. Ozdundee is right the case continues and the actual hearing date is 23 May 2014 not March. This Amil follows instructions from Muffi thus if Muffi ever visits Australia then he should be should also be tried for FGM performed in Sydney.

So Australians get ready and do all the groundwork. As soon as Muffi lands he should be put behind bars for forcing Mumineen to perform FGM.

Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#99

Unread post by Ozdundee » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:28 pm

In fact Muffi’s mother has published a book in which she clearly states that Khatanat is Rasulullah’s sunnat. Like in prayers where Faraz is compulsory but sunnat is not.
The point here is by publishing it as sunnat one is promoting it, especially the position of the author in the community.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#100

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:48 pm

The present day Bohtra clergy is more concerned about 'Sunnats' rather then 'Fard'........... Khatna, FGM, Dadhi ! It helps them in subjugating the clan but when it comes to namaz they are pretty OK in skipping the Sunnats in their Masjids !

New
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#101

Unread post by New » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:34 pm

I am very much in agreement here about sunnah vs. farizat. Jagwani raat, dasmi moharram, mattam, deedar of dai, etc. etc. When I look at 3 times prayers, I laugh. Why 5 salat bundeled in to 3? If the Prophet wanted it that way, he would have done so.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#102

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:24 pm

Opposition to FGM must not lead to prejudice

We need to integrate those at risk of female genital mutilation into the existing child protection framework

The Guardian's campaign has put female genital mutilation firmly on the political agenda, with Michael Gove, Ban Ki-Moon and Malala Yousafzai throwing their weight behind it. I am heartened that the physical autonomy of young African and Asian girls is being taken seriously, and I hope that concrete assistance will be given to those at risk: the physical, psychological and social harm of FGM fails women, and whatever justifications kept it alive for millennia, have no weight against the idea that a child's body is perfect and healthy the way it is made.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -prejudice

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#103

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:13 pm

Egypt doctor faces trial over fatal female genital mutilation

The practice, although banned in 2008, has been common among both Muslims and minority Christians


Cairo: A doctor in Egypt will face trial for performing a female circumcision operation that killed a teenage girl, a judicial official said on Tuesday.

The 14-year-old girl’s father who took her to the doctor for the procedure will also face trial, the official said.

Although banned in 2008, female genital mutilation is still rampant in Egypt, especially in rural areas where many believe it is part of their faith.

The doctor in the Nile Delta city of Mansoura performed the dangerous procedure at a private clinic.

A survey in 2000 said the procedure had been carried out on 97 per cent of the country’s married women.

The fight against the practice was dealt a setback by Islamists after president Hosni Mubarak’s overthrow in 2011, who argued women’s rights laws were vestiges of the dictator’s regime, Nehad said.

The World Health Organisation estimates that between 100 million and 140 million women have been victims of genital mutilation worldwide.

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/e ... -1.1302868

Bohra spring
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#104

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:01 pm

Malala vs Mufadal

Malala in the blue corner against FGM
Muffs in the red corner for fgm
Referee from Oz
Bench judge Ban Ki Moon,
Cheerleader Jim ..equal opportunity

VIP are GM and AZ, MC is SBM , Admin is crowd control

Malala is experienced in fighting talibans, she survives bullets
Muffy is experienced in killing helpless wildlife, he fires bullets
Betting is now open...

Ozdundee
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#105

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:03 pm

i am a biased referee , it not fair for SMS

but happy to put my bets on Malala, but to make sure i get my money back I will put some on SMS because we know by now he will not play by the rules and may win somehow.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#106

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:35 pm

Britain to prosecute first female genital mutilation cases

A London doctor and another man will become the first people to be charged in Britain over female genital mutilation, state prosecutors announced on Friday.

Dr Dhanoun Dharmasena is accused of re-performing an FGM procedure on a woman who gave birth at his hospital in November 2012 following damage caused by labour.

Another man, Hasan Mohamed, is accused of intentionally encouraging an offence of FGM, and of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring Dharmasena to commit the offence.

It was not immediately clear what Mohamed's relationship to the victim was, but he is not a healthcare professional.

"It was alleged that following a patient giving birth in November 2012, a doctor at the Whittington Hospital, in London, repaired FGM that had previously been performed on the patient, allegedly carrying out FGM himself," said Alison Saunders, director of public prosecutions.

"Having carefully considered all the available evidence, I have determined there is sufficient evidence and it would be in the public interest to prosecute Dr Dhanoun Dharmasena."

Both Dharmasena and Mohamed will appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court on April 15.

Some 100 to 140 million girls and women globally are thought to have undergone FGM, which ranges from removal of the clitoris to more widespread mutilation, and can lead to infection and long-term severe pain.

FGM has been illegal in Britain since 1985 but no-one has ever been prosecuted.

There have been increasing calls on police and the government to act, and last month ministers introduced a new requirement on British hospitals to keep a record of patients who have been subjected to FGM.

The latest Department of Health figures from 2007 suggest that 66,000 women in England and Wales are living with the consequences of FGM, and a further 23,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk every year.

FGM was first made illegal in Britain under a 1985 law, which was extended in 2003 to make it an offence for British nationals or permanent residents to carry out FGM abroad or seek FGM abroad, even where it is legal.

The maximum penalty is 14 years in jail.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 433405.cms

Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#107

Unread post by Ozdundee » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:26 pm

If you suspect a girl is at risk of FGM...

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is prohibited by law in NSW and throughout Australia. The legislation applies to anyone who is usually a resident in NSW, whether or not FGM is performed within NSW or overseas.

Download our leaflet on FGM legislation in NSW.

FGM threatens the health and welfare of children and young people and is an abuse of human rights.

Reporting your concerns can help to protect the health and welfare of girls at risk of FGM. Child Protection is a community responsibility.

The belief that FGM is a traditional religious or cultural practice should not stop you from taking action.


If you are concerned that someone you know is at risk of FGM report it immediately to;
The Child Protection Helpline on 132 111 (TTY 1800 212 936) for the cost of a local call, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Click here for further child protection contacts

You should also contact the Child Protection Helpline and the NSW Education Program on FGM if you know of someone who has already undergone the procedure. They may require specialist health care and support and other girls in their family may be at risk.

If you are a community organisation, government agency or health or welfare professional interested in receiving training on FGM click HERE

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#108

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:24 pm

“A Tiny Cut”: Female Circumcision in South East Asia

http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/a-tiny ... east-asia/

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#109

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:39 pm

I am an Indian woman living in Mumbai and I attended a seminar in the United States recently where you spoke on the subject of Female Genital Cutting in Africa. That day, I know I was the most intent of all listeners, the most interested in what you had to say. Why, you might ask?

It is because I, an Indian woman who has been to University, have myself experienced the practice of FGC. I know this may surprise you, but it is true. Did you know that FGC also exists in India? Many people do not, not even many Indians!

I hail from the Dawoodi Bohra community, whose head is called the Syedna – we are a sect of the Shias, which came to India from Yemen some centuries ago.

http://breakthesilencespeakthetruth.wordpress.com/

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#110

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed May 07, 2014 4:55 pm

Female genital mutilation parties rampant in UK

London, May 7 (ANI): Girls are being cut at female genital mutilation 'parties' is rampant in Britain, healthcare experts have told MPs.

The Commons home affairs select committee heard that 'cutters' - often older women - are flown into Britain for the events.

According to the Guardian, Janet Fyle, of the Royal College of Midwives, said that by the time the authorities could be alerted, the cutter would have left.

Professor Janice Rymer, of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, shared Fyle's belief that FGM was happening in Britain at a massive scale, the report said.

The MPs also heard evidence that 75 to 80 women were undergoing FGM reversal operations in Britain each year.

According to the report, Scotland Yard has launched a campaign to prevent girls being flown abroad to be mutilated, senior officers told the select committee.

They also blamed the lack of prosecutions over the past 20 years on healthcare professionals for failing to report cases to the police, the report added. (ANI)

https://in.news.yahoo.com/female-genita ... 44668.html

Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#111

Unread post by Ozdundee » Fri May 23, 2014 3:42 am

Hot from the press with photos of Amil and his son.

Note trial will by Jury.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/female-genita ... zrm6i.html


The first three people ever charged with female genital mutilation in Australia were committed to stand trial at a Sydney court on Friday.

The court heard one of the victims had talked about how she had been cut on a ‘‘private part’’, while another little girl had said in an interview that she was hurt on her ‘‘bottom’’.

Auburn Sheikh Shabbir Vaziri (Amil) , 56, had his bail continued after he was committed to stand trial on two counts of being an accessory after the fact to female genital mutilation and with hindering the police investigation.

The mother (Bohra) accused of allowing her two daughters to be "cut" stood before Parramatta Local Court clutching a crying baby girl.

The retired nurse (Bohra) charged with performing the procedure remained silent in court but hit the shoulder of a journalist with her hand outside court as she covered her head.


Ozdundee
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Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#113

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat May 24, 2014 5:29 pm

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/n ... 6929222733
Photos more clearer.

The prosecution will largely rely on a police interview and a phone intercept between the mother and Ms Magennis.

Dr Brown said the oldest girl, known as C1 to protect her identity, had told police that, “she suffered a cut to her private parts”.

Her sister, C2, said she had been “hurt in the bottom”.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... ting-girls

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/stor ... al/?cs=300

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news ... 38ti1.html


as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#115

Unread post by as2153 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:14 am

I am strongly against fgm and would never allow it in my own family but this case brings up major concerns for me.

Fgm is a really serious problem in many immigrant populations and often severe enough that it causes psychological damage, disfigurement and death but the type of fgm ranges from community to community. I worry that the mild bohras who pinprick or nick as part of their tradition are being held as a scapegoat/example for the more serious types of fgm that happen in other communities.

The case reeks of civil liberties violations. If MGM is allowable because dominant cultures have said it is ok, then targeting a minority community for,following their customs has a racial discrimination component to it. It's widely known that Australia has gone right wing and anti-immigration and this is clearly driving some of a case that is otherwise very circumstantial and weak in terms of real evidence.

A nurse was involved in the procedure ( allegedly)? If this is true then it strikes me her participation was to avoid back alley practicers from performing a procedure that was not sterile and ensuring that if the parents insisted it be done, then it be done in a sterile medically relevant setting. This type of case will drive those who by virtue of their beliefs insist this must be done back to the underground where sterility and safety is not paramount. I don't think that's a good thing. It's akin to the ultra right and religious Christians that banned abortions and forced the abortions to be carried out underground in unsanitary conditions by non-medical professionals.

Again I want to reiterate that i am personally strongly against this act in any form but I see several problems with the developing case including the non conclusive circumstantial evidence, the underlying racial prejudice that is likely driving this case and the precedent this sets for violations of civil liberties and freedom to practice religious customs any time the government decides that the particular religious belief is not one that they agree with. I also think that the danger in equating real fgm with what bohras do is similar to equating groping with assault and rape and does a disservice to women who have truly experienced disfiguritive fgm. Both are unacceptable in today's society but they are not the same.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#116

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun May 25, 2014 9:12 am

Groping is sexual abuse so there is no excuse to commit it. Bohra style fgm is fgm

I think laws represent public and scientific opinion

There is sufficient non political basis to abolish it

Immigrants need to decide that if they are not wanting to live behind their destructive traditions they should not move to western countries do so , I don't mean refugees but economic migrants like Bohras

Also your comment the west is stereotyping is not fair

Western society are quite tolerant to Islamic practises which are civilised like building mosques, halal meat, dress code, religious practises which are spiritual in nature . Fgm is destructive and done on girls who cannot say no and is to reduce their sexuality.

MGM is promoted for hygiene reasons and does not affect sexuality as much as fgm

Ozdundee
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#117

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sun May 25, 2014 9:30 am

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sydney ... 6929222733
The girls’ father, a GP, and four other female relatives, who can’t be named to protect the girls, were also charged over the circumcision but their charges were dismissed at earlier court appearances.


A lawyer has been committed to stand trial with perverting the course of justice over the ritual circumcisions.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/201 ... mutilation

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/23765502/th ... ing-girls/

as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#118

Unread post by as2153 » Sun May 25, 2014 8:42 pm

"Groping is sexual abuse so there is no excuse to commit it. Bohra style fgm is fgm"

Reply: I agree that groping is wrong. I am appalled that you consider groping and rape the same - that is a disgraceful opinion to have for any person. There are degrees for fgm too and targeting bohras is going for the wrong end of the spectrum for a problem that truly needs to be dealt with.

"I think laws represent public and scientific opinion "

Reply: Wrong. Being gay is legal in europe and america and illegal in saudia arabia and iran. Laws represent the dominant majority of any country. Consider this: ear or nose piercing or collagen hole punching or ear/nose mutilation has no medical benefit, is painful, can lead to infection, irritation and worse and is done on baby girls all over the world with no outcry because it is widely accepted practise. Why is that? I think its because the dominant majority also carry out this activity aswell. Consider this: for many years, abortion was and is illegal in catholic dominated countries and essentially impossible to do for non-medical reasons but hundreds of thousands of girls got them done nonetheless. The political laws of those countries forced those girls to go to back alley butchers to carry out procedures in non-sterile conditions by non-licensed and non-regulated practitioners. This still happens. Progressive countries allow abortion in a regulated and medical setting even when there is no medical basis for carrying it out, This case, if it is true, would be attacking individuals who tried to perform the prick in sterile medical conditions, when it would otherwise have been done underground in non-sterile dank conditions. I say "if it is true" because there is actually no evidence that anything happened in this case.

"There is sufficient non political basis to abolish it"

Reply: You are getting to the crux of the issue. There is a political will to see this happen because the voting majority find this practise abhorrent to their own sensibilities and expect immigrants to conform to their beliefs and standards if they are immigrating. I agree with that to an extent and with respect to fgm but this is also a civil liberties issue and a freedom to practise individual religion issue that you are ignoring. If you believe that Islam is politically popular in western countries, then you truly are naive and given your past desires to initiate revolution and bring the whole bohra structure crashing down, this does not really surprise me.

"Immigrants need to decide that if they are not wanting to live behind their destructive traditions they should not move to western countries do so , I don't mean refugees but economic migrants like Bohras
Also your comment the west is stereotyping is not fair"

Reply: Ok so I understand. Like many westerners you believe immigrants should conform to western beliefs and standards. I believe in freedom to practice individual beliefs. We can agree to disagree.

"Western society are quite tolerant to Islamic practises which are civilised like building mosques, halal meat, dress code, religious practises which are spiritual in nature . Fgm is destructive and done on girls who cannot say no and is to reduce their sexuality."

Reply: I dont agree with fgm but as I said, I think targeting bohras who may be on the mild end of this spectrum of activities is going for the wrong group. For someone who desires to see the whole system come crashing down, it works for you. I think its the wrong target. Saying western society is tolerant of islamic practises when france has banned hijabs, far right groups are winning elections all over europe on a platform of islamaphobia and its popular to attack sharia law in the us (which does not even exist) to win elections would suggest again that you are naive about the realities we live in. Now - lets talk about girls that strongly believe that it is their birthright and want to follow in thier mothers and grandmothers step in completing the tradition - should they be banned from having process/pin prick? Is that a violation of civil liberties? This is sketchy territory.

"MGM is promoted for hygiene reasons and does not affect sexuality as much as fgm."

Reply: This is highly controversial. Many studies have suggested mgm does effect sexual performance and is not as medically relevant as other studies have suggested. For that reason, it remains an elective procedure that can be done on babies at the discretion of parents but is not mandated for any medical reason. MGM will never go away because a far more powerful group and faith than bohras also practises it and would never let a government or politics interfere with their religious beliefs or practises. I personally believe khatna/mgm is hygienic and Im aligned with studies showing it reduces vd transmission but its still my choice to believe that - not a medical or legal mandate.

Reply: These are hypothetical responses if this case was true. As it stands, there is no evidence that any procedure ever took place. Any google search on fgm would show you that if it did happen as the traditional form of fgm does, the evidence would be unambiguous. What they do have is some hearsay and circumstancial non-material evidence that a procedure was carried out. In the UK, such a case would never proceed due to lack of evidence. The push to pursue it in australia smacks of racial prejudice and popularised islamaphobia using an easy target rather than the real perpetrators of this horrific crime.

Reply: I dont understand fgm and I am not going to defend or advocate for a practise that makes no sense to me but at the same time, Im deeply concerned about the trampling of civil liberty issues at play here. Lets pray that true fgm becomes a practice that goes away forever and that the true perpetrators of this horrific crime are targeted and stopped rather than mild, meek and easy targets that may have been trying to do the right thing from a religious directive they have no control over but believe in.

Ozdundee
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#119

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon May 26, 2014 6:57 am

As2153 , you have your right to express your views. Unfortunately your views are minority in the public arena and not recognised when laws are made. Your statements imply that Bohras are targeted and they should be allowed to continue the pin prick because our ancestors did so .

The law and science is not naive that they do not know the difference between extreme form of mutilation and pin prick. It is not bigoted religious bodies which are targeting the banning of this practise but women's group trying to librate women, child protection groups, civil liberty and human rights groups. So trying to distract this as a religious battle is untrue. I think in the end the law will prevail. It is forbidden and Bohras can play cat and mouse game but sooner or later some will get caught and then there will be no lineancy.

Your kind of thinking want to imply that the claim of your civil liberty is superior reason to continue when you very we'll know that the Ismaili traditions in a self contradiction way has stated in traditions , literature and ideology it is either for hygiene or cleanliness reasons , but it is a way to cleanse the psychological process and to avoid our women becoming sexually active , to keep them subjugated to their husbands where the pin prick interferes with the sensory nerves that arouse sexuality.

Talking of distractions , how is it that your type of orthodox Bohras selectively apply SMBs guidance to comply with local laws, in what cases does he expect Bohras to comply and when should they have the raza to break laws, are they sincere advise or whitewash for publicity. In the beginning you claimed civil liberties yet those same civil liberties are denied to reformists, SKQ or liberal SMS Bohras in other practises and yet very few activist fighting for their liberties. Why this inconsistent application of freedoms . What about the freedom of the girl child who undergoes this trauma when she can remember , unlike a male child who is an infant so no psychological impact. You very well know the clitoris will be non existent in a infant so we are targeting the clitoris , the purpose being sexual function of a perfect woman created naturally . Without going into intimate details why are not men also bothered what the consequences of this practise are ? ! With modern hygiene practises and abundance of water and education the hygiene issue is non existent so wonder who would justify this practise on that basis.

Now regarding the particular case if you took time to read the media report the courts report states the following "The prosecution will largely rely on a police interview and a phone intercept between ........ ........had told police that, .....suffered a cut to her private parts”.

Now unless you are an expert legal professional I don't know how you can comment that the court process is unfair in Australia compared to elsewhere and rely of stereotypical factors that it is a racist country at an institutional level and this is a form of national level discrimination and selectively targeting Bohras . If it was so bad a place why would refugees risk boat rides where many drown in the process to illegally come here, or migrants wait for years in a queue to migrate some even corruptly try to gain qualifications, come over as highly qualified and rather do taxi , security and cleaning jobs than go back. This is not relevant to the topic but such comments may mislead others that fgm is an issue only in Australia , most western countries have made it illegal too.

Attacking western society is like attacking them for leading the way to abolish human slavery in the 19th century , now according to you was that also unnecessary when in Islam we continuously discuss slaves of the Imams and Prophets saw when recalling historical events , who though he later released to be acceptable practise to keep slaves . I am not brainwashed to accept whatever west practise but as a beneficiary of western lifestyle and freedoms , I cannot stand back and watch people like you attack it to cover up your loss of rituals. If you consider the overall pros and cons of a western society you as a Shia Ismaili would understand one has more freedom to practise their faith and express it compared to being in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia , while as Muslim you have better rights and equal opportunities compared to Hindu dominated places in India, or as an Indian in Malaysia, Singapore, Africa or Middle East . So before you holistically right off the west , it deserves more credit than given. If the practise is so emotionally and spiritually dear, relocate to countries that allow it, FGM is known to be prevalent in 27 African countries, Yemen and Iraqi Kurdistan, Saudi Arabia,Jordan,Iraq,Syria,Oman, United Arab Emirates and Qatar.

At the end of the day I will not run an endless debate with you , I will not change my views on it, as far as I am concerned this is an illegal practise , anyone doing it knows the consequences of jail for 20 years , you risk doing then face up when get caught and then try to negotiate it was just a pin prick ! My personal issue regarding this FGM matter is many fold, it is a cruel practise that has no mainstream Islamic support in 2014, so we can drop it without feeling we are committing sin, secondly the children need to be spared this barbaric act, we should be ashamed that the society cares for our children's welfare more than we so called mumineen parents, fathers and guardians are , we are too busy fighting to protect the practise and disguising it as liberty issue , tradition and playing holier than thou, it also demonstrates how inflexible and cultish our practises are that in the face of global public outcry we are happy to further isolate ourselves to a state of pariah community, this isolation demonstrate a complete lack of competency and capability of the religious authority in the face of real world issues which has tested their claims of absolute authority to be weak , hollow and unsustainable.

as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Police investigating FGM in community

#120

Unread post by as2153 » Mon May 26, 2014 11:53 am

Ozdundee:

I am not an advocate for the prick in bohra girls so you have no grounds to argue me on this because I am not arguing in favor of the tradition. I am arguing in favor of freedom to practise our own individual beliefs. You have personal reasons for wanting this to stop and I can respect that but you also have to recognize this drive to stop this forces your position on others who have a differing position and you have utterly failed to address any of the civil liberties issues that I have brought up with respect to this. You distract the topic by referring to draconian rule from SMS/SKQ when I have not advocated for that either and have never mentioned either in my discussion. You argue that men should also be upset about having circumcision thereby placing it in a similar category of wishing it was outlawed but you are again forcing your position as the right one when many many people feel otherwise. You argue that I am criticising the west but that it is not what I am doing, I love the west and the freedom it gives me to practise my own beliefs but I also want to protect that freedom. I am bringing up the issue of prejudice and discrimination in the west that does exist whether you like it or not and your personal experiences are supporting that prejudice inadvertently whether you like it or not. Equating what the bohras might do (I dont know anything about the details on this or the reasons for it other than what some intha shri (similar to bohras I am told) girls have told me (and they were pleased to have followed their mothers traditions and it was a celebration in their families so you truly do not represent everyone) with real fgm is deeply unfair in my opinion and taints a beautiful people (the bohras) with a tarnish that really belongs to other groups that practise real fgm.

Now I learned about this topic from your own news postings and I will reiterate that what you have posted shows an interception of a phone call and a hurt bum/pain which sounds ambiguous at best and you have verified again that there is absolutely no "material" evidence in this case. I repeat therefore that in my opinion, it is prejudice and discrimination that is driving this case and that they are targeting the wrong group if they want to eliminate the abhorrent practise of real fgm which I am strongly against and for which there would be clear and unambiguous material evidence.

Nobody on this forum ever changes anybody elses mind on this forum and often end up just insulting either but it is an opportunity to express an alternate opinion to the one that is dominant right now on the forum and that is one point of having a forum.