The Judge and the Imam

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anajmi
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The Judge and the Imam

#1

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:17 am

Admin,

Stop deleting my posts. What is wrong with you? I thought truth hurt only those who were on the side of falsehood. Why is it hurting you?

The bohra Nuss validity is going to be decided by a judge instead of the Imam so apparently, the judge is the bohra hidden Imam. That is what I said, and you decided to delete my post for that?

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#2

Unread post by maethist » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:39 am

anajmi wrote:Admin,

Stop deleting my posts. What is wrong with you? I thought truth hurt only those who were on the side of falsehood. Why is it hurting you?

The bohra Nuss validity is going to be decided by a judge instead of the Imam so apparently, the judge is the bohra hidden Imam. That is what I said, and you decided to delete my post for that?
52nd Dai made nuss through 'ilhaam' from Imam. That was the 'decision' from Imam.

Dispute is about who was the recipient of nuss since the two claim to be the recipients. This is the point of the court case.

Bringing Imam into it is irrelevant and clearly very mischievous. I read earlier comment which was full of malice and Admin is right to have deleted it.

anajmi
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:52 pm

Bringing Imam into it is irrelevant and clearly very mischievous.
Actually, the Imam is right in the center of it. What was the decision of the Imam? Obviously, no one knows. Hence we have to go a hindu judge. How would the judge know? Either he is receiving "ilhaam" from the Imam or he is the Imam. What if the judge makes the wrong decision? How would we know? Has either party agreed to merge with the other once the decision is made? If yes, then obviously, the judge has higher power than the Imam. So the judge is the Imam. If neither party agrees with the decision of the judge, then the question remains How do we know the decision of the Imam? Go to the supreme court and see if the Imam is sitting there?

haqniwaat
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#4

Unread post by haqniwaat » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 pm

Mr. Anajmi, I understand your confusion however, the reason for the case is related to duniya, not deen. No matter what the judge rules, true followers will still believe what they do now. Only the ones who are in it for duniya will change sides.

Remember, those who went with Husain Imam SA, most went with him because they thought he would create a state in Iraq. But when they found out that he was there for deen only, most of them returned back to their homeland.

I don't mean to belittle anyone, but before making statements, it might be a good idea to learn about our faith first.

anajmi
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:44 pm

Do you know that it was the "true believers" who brought the case in the first place? Or was it the "true believers" on the other side?

anajmi
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Remember, those who went with Husain Imam SA, most went with him because they thought he would create a state in Iraq. But when they found out that he was there for deen only, most of them returned back to their homeland.
You aren't that ignorant are you? He was there for deen and duniya both. You cannot separate one from the other. If he was interested in deen only, then he should've stayed home, done 5 times salaah and tasbeeh all day and he wouldn'tve died for people like you!!

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#7

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:30 pm

maethist wrote:
52nd Dai made nuss through 'ilhaam' from Imam. That was the 'decision' from Imam.
Dispute is about who was the recipient of nuss since the two claim to be the recipients. This is the point of the court case.
Bringing Imam into it is irrelevant and clearly very mischievous. I read earlier comment which was full of malice and Admin is right to have deleted it.
brother maethist,

to a certain extent I would have to agree with anajmi. perhaps his equating the judge's powers with the hidden imam would have outraged those for whom the 'concept' of hidden imam is absolutely sacrosanct and central to the dawoodi bohra faith, but let us consider this for a moment- if this issue of nass is so serious that both claimants have to seek justice from the govt's courts, then where is the hidden imam?? isn't this the right time for him to appear out in the open and intervene so that the bohra community can avoid the mockery and object of ridicule that it has become?

in fact where was the hidden imam when similar such disputes on succession occured several times in the chain of dais? heck, there have been several hotly contested disputes on the succession of imams themselves. so the obvious question which arises is this, if the living imams couldn't solve their own problems, then how will a 'hidden' imam solve the cat fights between 2 candidates to the 'throne', one of whom openly relishes the dirty fight and descends to gutter level to malign his opponent?

add to this the court recorded fact that the 51st dai categorically declared while under oath during cross-examination, that the hidden imam is merely a concept and that he has no proof of his existence.

now would you condemn the 51st for maligning your faith in this hidden imam, who chooses to remain hidden while his dai's fight shamelessly tooth and nail?

Munira_RV
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Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#8

Unread post by Munira_RV » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:39 pm

anajmi wrote:
Bringing Imam into it is irrelevant and clearly very mischievous.
Actually, the Imam is right in the center of it. What was the decision of the Imam? Obviously, no one knows. Hence we have to go a hindu judge. How would the judge know? Either he is receiving "ilhaam" from the Imam or he is the Imam. What if the judge makes the wrong decision? How would we know? Has either party agreed to merge with the other once the decision is made? If yes, then obviously, the judge has higher power than the Imam. So the judge is the Imam. If neither party agrees with the decision of the judge, then the question remains How do we know the decision of the Imam? Go to the supreme court and see if the Imam is sitting there?
As per inference from book 'Batshatul Kubra', the 'nai khutba' issued by Najmuddin sahib (47th as nazim dai), the chain of Dai stopped at 46th Dai Syyedna Badruddin a.q. like the chain of Prophet stopped at Mohamed PBUH. So neither of both are rightful Dai (not appointed by nuss of Imam-uz-zaman)

So all your gibberish above is gibberish.

Ummul Bani
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#9

Unread post by Ummul Bani » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:57 pm

I just think that its best to leave certain decisions to the Admin's discretion.
He is better equipped and qualified to do his job than any of us here. I am certain that his decisions will only be in the best interest of this forum.

Nothing personal, just my opinion.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:00 am

The fact that the Admin moved this piece to the "Lighter side" of this forum tells you that he agrees with me about this entire bohra nuss, court case, Imam business. It is a joke!!

Ummul Bani
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#11

Unread post by Ummul Bani » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:17 am

Different perception. My perception is your comment no longer fits rest of the important forums and therefore it is moved here.

SBM
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#12

Unread post by SBM » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:16 am

anajmi wrote:The fact that the Admin moved this piece to the "Lighter side" of this forum tells you that he agrees with me about this entire bohra nuss, court case, Imam business. It is a joke!!
Or may be Admin thinks that your postings in this regard are jokes too :mrgreen: :D

maethist
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#13

Unread post by maethist » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:17 am

For all practical purposes, Bohra belief in hidden Imam is akin to a Muslim's belief in angels. They are both requirements of their respective faith and both irrelevant when in comes to administering justice.

For example, if in Wahabistan a thief is sentenced to have his hands cut off, his defense pointing out that there are no angels and therefore Shariah is false or demanding proof of angels' existence would be irrelevant. Judge would be interested only in establishing the evidence of crime.

Similarly, court case is concerned with establishing the truth of evidence from the two claimants of nuss. Whether there is Imam or whether he communicated with the previous Dai is not an issue. The case is about ownership of 'Title Deeds' of real estate. No matter who wins the case, Judge is unlikely to dent the beliefs and views of dedicated followers of either claimant.

Imam is not relevant to the issue and bringing him into it is mischievous and malicious, and a tangential but transparent attempt at ridiculing the faith of Bohras.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:13 am

You are absolutely right. The Imam is completely irrelevant as far as the bohra Dais and his abdes are concerned!!

maethist
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#15

Unread post by maethist » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:25 am

anajmi wrote:You are absolutely right. The Imam is completely irrelevant as far as the bohra Dais and his abdes are concerned!!
No. Imam is irrelevant to the court case. Not more not less. The court has nothing to do with whether Imam is relevant or irrelevant to the faith of Bohras.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:49 am

We are going around in circles. It is the Imam who decides who the next Dai is going to be. The Dai is chosen by the Imam. Hence the judge will be the Imam. Of course, the bohra and their respective Dais will chose not to believe the judge. And that is expected. As Al Zulfikar clearly articulated, if the Imam had been relevant or existant, we wouldn'tve had so many versions and representatives of him claiming to be the only ones. The judge's decision is going to be just as irrelevant as the Imam!!

My point is simple, which according to the Admin, isn't terribly original and that is that there is no Imam giving ilhaam to these imposters. Never has been. And if that point had been driven home, we wouldn't be in this constant idol worshipping mode that we are in. Unfortunately, this has to be repeated again and again. And it is even more unfortunate, that it has to be done in the "lighter side"!!

maethist
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#17

Unread post by maethist » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:57 am

anajmi wrote:We are going around in circles. It is the Imam who decides who the next Dai is going to be. The Dai is chosen by the Imam. Hence the judge will be the Imam. Of course, the bohra and their respective Dais will chose not to believe the judge. And that is expected. As Al Zulfikar clearly articulated, if the Imam had been relevant or existant, we wouldn'tve had so many versions and representatives of him claiming to be the only ones. The judge's decision is going to be just as irrelevant as the Imam!!

My point is simple, which according to the Admin, isn't terribly original and that is that there is no Imam giving ilhaam to these imposters. Never has been. And if that point had been driven home, we wouldn't be in this constant idol worshipping mode that we are in. Unfortunately, this has to be repeated again and again. And it is even more unfortunate, that it has to be done in the "lighter side"!!
Yes. There are no angels and Muhammad lied through his teeth and when he said that the angels delivered Quran to him. If that point is driven home, we would not have Islam and no ISIS!

Good-bye.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:04 am

Whenever someone mentions ISIS like you have, consider them to have been beaten in the argument.

There aren't multiple versions of the Quran claiming to be the correct one. There is only one. Hence your analogy is idiotic and a sign of desperation. Do not get desperate. Instead of becoming a kafir by making these idiotic statements, think a little bit.

maethist
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#19

Unread post by maethist » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:22 am

The claimants are not saying that there are two different Imam Tayyabs either.

And prove that there are angels, if you dare.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:29 am

And prove that there are angels, if you dare.
I cannot. You are welcome to become a kafir!!
The claimants are not saying that there are two different Imam Tayyabs either.
But since the Imam is telling different things to them, they now have to seek clarification from a judge. Hence, the Imam is actually talking more clearly to the judge. So either the judge is the Imam or he is receiving clearer ilhaam from the Imam. So at best, the judge should be your next Dai. Now, this post definitely belongs in the lighter side.

maethist
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#21

Unread post by maethist » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:46 am

Imam said just one thing and Dai has complied by declaring it. What did the Dai say and when did he say it and to whom is the question and that is what the court is there to decide. Neither claimant is asking Imam to appear or 52nd Dai to be revived and brought before the judge.

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:21 pm

Isn't the Imam supposed to be now talking to the living Dai? Do you know which one? Does the judge know? How will you know that the judge has made the right decision? You said that the bohras are going to ignore the decision of the judge. Doesn't that mean they will be ignoring the decision of the Imam? At least one group will definitely be ignoring the Imam. Which group is that? If we keep going back in history, what if the first Dawoodi Bohra Dai and his followers were the ones who ignored the decision of the Imam and the true Dai is actually the Alavi Bohra Dai?

bohrikaka
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#23

Unread post by bohrikaka » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:43 am

The conduct and actions of the dai would make it evident. There are clear qualities spelt out in aqaid books which can be taken as reference to distinguish whether any person claiming to to true dai is indeed one. isnt it ?

anajmi
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Re: The Judge and the Imam

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:00 am

Then what the heck is a nuss needed for? Appoint a Dai based upon conduct and actions!!