Dawoodi Bohra Forum

labbaikyaHussain wrote:
gaurantee of a person who thinks sadiq Ali sahab was kafir does not matters to any sane momeein.

And of course, when Quran prohibits sajda to anyone except Allah, it does not matter much to a Sayedna follower either.

I called Sadiq Ali a mushrik, not a kafir, for penning sentiments lauding sajda to Dai. That is what the Quran says too. And if the Dai allows sajda to himself, he also qualifies to be a mushrik, let alone Sadiq Ali.

And it does not matter what linguistic contortions of tawil Sayedna applies to Quran to wriggle himself out of Quran's commandment. The charge stands valid.

Maybe, Sayedna would want you to be his follower, after all!

@Porus,
Firstly whats your Aqeeda?
Only God ,Or Prophet and God or +++
Or a Wahabi??
,

Today Syedna tus Allows to do Sajada to him , So according to ur view ,he is a Mushrik? (hashalilla Naozobillh) Y/N

Do you know Arabic?
If Yes, Do you have studied Kitabul Himma of Syedna Qazi Noman, in which he explain Doctrin of Sajada,
(if you dont have i can give u that book)
Or u dont believe in Syedna Qazi Noman......


Which stanzas of Sadiq Ali Saheb are you referring? Can you quote??

for all the abdes rushing to proclaim their love for sadiqali, please note that up until some 15-20 years ago, the kothar had withdrawn raza and effectively banned the reading of the nasihats of sadiqali, as many of its verses were viewed with suspicion and seen as veiled but highly critical of the last 2 syednas.

i also have serious misgivings that some of the verses have been tampered with and/or new ones inserted extolling the dai, after the restrictions have been eased. the long gap during which the book was effectively out of circulation, has ensured that the newer generation of sabak attending abdes do not know the original version and now in a twist of masterful proportions are actually being indoctrinated with the perverted version.

so in effect, the hated villain has been resurrected and turned into a hero whose endorsement is seen as a prized feather in the cap of the kothari mafia.

perhaps bhai insaf can elaborate and add his comments.

murtaza2152 wrote:@Porus,
Firstly whats your Aqeeda?
Only God ,Or Prophet and God or +++
Or a Wahabi??
,

Today Syedna tus Allows to do Sajada to him , So according to ur view ,he is a Mushrik? (hashalilla Naozobillh) Y/N

Do you know Arabic?
If Yes, Do you have studied Kitabul Himma of Syedna Qazi Noman, in which he explain Doctrin of Sajada,
(if you dont have i can give u that book)
Or u dont believe in Syedna Qazi Noman......


Which stanzas of Sadiq Ali Saheb are you referring? Can you quote??

Which particular section of Kitab al-Himma is Qazi Noman's tafseer of Quranic ayat/ayats which allows him to develop a doctrine commanding sajda to other than Allah?

Scan the relevant Arabic section and paste it here or send it to me in a pm.

al Z,

There may be some truth in what you wrote about Sadiq Ali's naseehats being tempered with. As a child, I was not taught any of these naseehat about sajda to Dai, and about which I first became aware of on this forum. And as an adult I began to admire his writings.

And it is true, Sadiq Ali was banned for some time.

Unfortunately, I have only the naseehat's published during the current Dai's reign and cannot compare with earlier versions of them.

porus,

i have a copy of the naseehats published in 1987 by the 48'ers atbae humayun trust. since this trust or sect is/was not under syedna's or his father's control, i would expect it to be authentic.

it might be interesting to compare notes with your version and mine. unfortunately it is too bulky to be scanned. any ideas how we can do this?

it might also be interesting to see the abdes version from where they are so boldly quoting about sajda to dai etc.

Al Zulfiqar wrote:porus,

i have a copy of the naseehats published in 1987 by the 48'ers atbae humayun trust. since this trust or sect is/was not under syedna's or his father's control, i would expect it to be authentic.

it might be interesting to compare notes with your version and mine. unfortunately it is too bulky to be scanned. any ideas how we can do this?

it might also be interesting to see the abdes version from where they are so boldly quoting about sajda to dai etc.

al Z,

That is good. Let me dig out specific stanzas about sajda to Dai and post them here with Naseehat title and stanza number. You can then see if they are the same in 48'er's version. Please wait till tomorrow at least. Thanks.

@Porus
Also Quote the Stanzas Which reformists refers for the Proof of 47 nd as Dai Nazim,ie The actual ones written in Official copy....

Also quote Matlaa of Each Nasihat so for full version, we can search in our collections....

@Porus Az,
I have stanzas of Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb on Sujud to Dail Mutlaq in .Png image ,how can i post it here??

murtaza2152 wrote:@Porus Az,
I have stanzas of Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb on Sujud to Dail Mutlaq in .Png image ,how can i post it here??

I am aware of that stanza. I am more interested in you uploading, as per your claim, sections of Kitab al-himma where Qazi Noman provides justification of sujood to other than Allah.

To upload here:

1. Scan the page and save it in jpg format.
2. Upload to a global site like google or flickr using anonymous id
3. Provide the link to the site in your post here using the [IMG] button

These are some stanzas from Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat on Topic Sajada to Dail Mutlaq

Admin please attach the images which I have sent to you,
ThankYou...

Porus/ Al Zulifiqar

Do you have Sadiq Ali's full nasihat, I used to read it, but i have lost it. Sometimes I crave to read it, can you guys post it here or send me please.

@Accountability
There is software made by Hadi Ashar 11 Jamea Farig Students named Al Jawahir on Al Inkwan.net, which consists of All Nasihats of Hudud and Doat ra Especially Sadiq Ali Saheb,
Download it and it needs serial key to activate it,
If interested reply me...!

murtaza2152 wrote:@Accountability
There is software made by Hadi Ashar 11 Jamea Farig Students named Al Jawahir on Al Inkwan.net, which consists of All Nasihats of Hudud and Doat ra Especially Sadiq Ali Saheb,
Download it and it needs serial key to activate it,
If interested reply me...!

Its Al Manzoom Softwares Ekhwan.net

indeed syedi sadikali saheb was a great scholar and his kalemaat are shifa to those who seek. And fountain of knowledge are flowing from each and every verse of his worthy creations. Khuda ta'ala apne afzalul jazaa ata karjo.
Thanks bhai murtaza for starting such a constructive post, i wish all will contribute to it and further post such knowledgable stanzas.

Meavi milad mubarak.

murtaza2152 wrote:These are some stanzas from Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat on Topic Sajada to Dail Mutlaq

*********
al-matla'a : Ek pal tu mat khuda-ne ae banda visarje

Dai chhe pan ganaai chhe goya imam ma
chhe muqtada azal-thi salaat-o-siyam ma

mazmoon hikmato-na chhe je-na kalaam ma
arwah-ni haj yaqeen chhe je-na salaam ma

sayf ul-huda na chehra ma hi rab no chhe namud
karje jhuki ne tu Sadiq Ali sujood

------------------------------

(Opening line of naseehat): Not for a moment, O Slave, forget God

He is a Dai, but we consider him to be Imam
From the beginning of time, he is our leader in namaaz and roza

His speech is wisdom guaranteed
For all souls, Haj is certain in his salutation (salaam)

Rab (Allah) is displayed in the face of Sayf ul-Huda
Lower yourself in prostration (sujood) to him, O Sadiq Ali.

****************

The above is the last of the verses posted by Murtaza. Would others please care to transcribe and translate the rest?

This stanza is full of shirk. Tawheed is violated by projecting Allah's sifat on to a human. And Sadiq Ali violates Allah's command by teaching sajda to a human.

We have heard a lot about wishing the Dai to live until Qayamat. In the second line, this stanza also states that the Dai has been followed since eternity in salaat and roza!!

For God's sake, who are Muslims supposed to be following in salaat and roza? I thought that they were following the Quran and Prophet.

For God's sake, who are Muslims supposed to be following in salaat and roza?

Only Allah SWT

porus wrote:

murtaza2152 wrote:These are some stanzas from Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat on Topic Sajada to Dail Mutlaq

*********
al-matla'a : Ek pal tu mat khuda-ne ae banda visarje

Dai chhe pan ganaai chhe goya imam ma
chhe muqtada azal-thi salaat-o-siyam ma

mazmoon hikmato-na chhe je-na kalaam ma
arwah-ni haj yaqeen chhe je-na salaam ma

sayf ul-huda na chehra ma hi rab no chhe namud
karje jhuki ne tu Sadiq Ali sujood

------------------------------

(Opening line of naseehat): Not for a moment, O Slave, forget God

He is a Dai, but we consider him to be Imam
From the beginning of time, he is our leader in namaaz and roza

His speech is wisdom guaranteed
For all souls, Haj is certain in his salutation (salaam)

Rab (Allah) is displayed in the face of Sayf ul-Huda
Lower yourself in prostration (sujood) to him, O Sadiq Ali.

****************

The above is the last of the verses posted by Murtaza. Would others please care to transcribe and translate the rest?

This stanza is full of shirk. Tawheed is violated by projecting Allah's sifat on to a human. And Sadiq Ali violates Allah's command by teaching sajda to a human.

We have heard a lot about wishing the Dai to live until Qayamat. In the second line, this stanza also states that the Dai has been followed since eternity in salaat and roza!!

For God's sake, who are Muslims supposed to be following in salaat and roza? I thought that they were following the Quran and Prophet.

What sifaat of Allah? You can't attribute Sifaat to Allah. Oh my god , you have committed shirk

porus wrote:In the second line, this stanza also states that the Dai has been followed since eternity in salaat and roza!!

For God's sake, who are Muslims supposed to be following in salaat and roza? I thought that they were following the Quran and Prophet.

Don't comment on things that are above your intellect you himmar.

porus wrote: *********
sayf ul-huda na chehra ma hi rab no chhe namud
karje jhuki ne tu Sadiq Ali sujood
------------------------------
Rab (Allah) is displayed in the face of Sayf ul-Huda
Lower yourself in prostration (sujood) to him, O Sadiq Ali.

****************
(

This part of the verse refers to Sayedna Taher Sayfuddin, 51st Dai. Sadiq Ali was long dead when 51st Dai took over.

This suggests that the verse is doctored to serve any Dai. This is commonly done for most madehs and qaseedas for the Dai.

--------------

Al Zulfiqar wrote:porus,

i have a copy of the naseehats published in 1987 by the 48'ers atbae humayun trust.

it might be interesting to compare notes with your version and mine. unfortunately it is too bulky to be scanned. any ideas how we can do this?

al Z,

When you find time, please compare the verses posted by Murtaza in the following thread with the 48er's rendition. This will give us some idea. You will most likely find 49 to 51 not mentioned. Sadiq Ali last wrote in the time of the 44th Dai.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5917

accountability wrote:Porus/ Al Zulifiqar

Do you have Sadiq Ali's full nasihat, I used to read it, but i have lost it. Sometimes I crave to read it, can you guys post it here or send me please.

I have only one copy of the compilation published in 1399 Hijri. It is a 440 page book and cannot be copied or sent out. Alternatively, you may try the website suggested by Murtaza.

If you are in India or Pakistan, it should not be difficult to buy a copy.

My copy was bought from:

Kayzar Book Depot
149/151 Dhabbu Streeet, Dahinwala Chaal
2nd Floor, Near Rauda at-Tahira
Mumbai, 400 003

porus wrote:

porus wrote: *********
sayf ul-huda na chehra ma hi rab no chhe namud
karje jhuki ne tu Sadiq Ali sujood
------------------------------
Rab (Allah) is displayed in the face of Sayf ul-Huda
Lower yourself in prostration (sujood) to him, O Sadiq Ali.

****************
(

This part of the verse refers to Sayedna Taher Sayfuddin, 51st Dai. Sadiq Ali was long dead when 51st Dai took over.

This suggests that the verse is doctored to serve any Dai. This is commonly done for most madehs and qaseedas for the Dai.

--------------

Al Zulfiqar wrote:porus,

i have a copy of the naseehats published in 1987 by the 48'ers atbae humayun trust.

it might be interesting to compare notes with your version and mine. unfortunately it is too bulky to be scanned. any ideas how we can do this?

al Z,

When you find time, please compare the verses posted by Murtaza in the following thread with the 48er's rendition. This will give us some idea. You will most likely find 49 to 51 not mentioned. Sadiq Ali last wrote in the time of the 44th Dai.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5917

The Part of verse (saiful Huda) was written for 43rd Dai ul Mutlaq Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin and most of the syedi sadiq Ali's naseehats were written in that period only. Syedna Abdealil Saifuddin was himself was very good poet and every body can remember his master piece which he written for his son (46th Dai Syedna Mohammed Badruddin) "Apne Mulla si daro Kika Bhai Jaldi Parho".

However I agree with Brother Porus that most of his naseehat can be taken for any dai.

Hussain_KSA wrote:
The Part of verse (saiful Huda) was written for 43rd Dai ul Mutlaq Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin and most of the syedi sadiq Ali's naseehats were written in that period only.

Thank you for pointing that out.

profastian wrote:

porus wrote: *********
al-matla'a : Ek pal tu mat khuda-ne ae banda visarje

Dai chhe pan ganaai chhe goya imam ma
chhe muqtada azal-thi salaat-o-siyam ma

mazmoon hikmato-na chhe je-na kalaam ma
arwah-ni haj yaqeen chhe je-na salaam ma

sayf ul-huda na chehra ma hi rab no chhe namud
karje jhuki ne tu Sadiq Ali sujood

------------------------------

(Opening line of naseehat): Not for a moment, O Slave, forget God

He is a Dai, but we consider him to be Imam
From the beginning of time, he is our leader in namaaz and roza

His speech is wisdom guaranteed
For all souls, Haj is certain in his salutation (salaam)

Rab (Allah) is displayed in the face of Sayf ul-Huda
Lower yourself in prostration (sujood) to him, O Sadiq Ali.

****************

The above is the last of the verses posted by Murtaza. Would others please care to transcribe and translate the rest?

This stanza is full of shirk. Tawheed is violated by projecting Allah's sifat on to a human. And Sadiq Ali violates Allah's command by teaching sajda to a human.

We have heard a lot about wishing the Dai to live until Qayamat. In the second line, this stanza also states that the Dai has been followed since eternity in salaat and roza!!

For God's sake, who are Muslims supposed to be following in salaat and roza? I thought that they were following the Quran and Prophet.

What sifaat of Allah? You can't attribute Sifaat to Allah. Oh my god , you have committed shirk

What is Sifah of Allah?
Do you believe in giving sifat to Allah?

murtaza2152 wrote: What is Sifah of Allah?
Do you believe in giving sifat to Allah?

Truly, Allah is beyond all sifaaat. He cannot be contained within any of them.

However, Quran does use human attributes for Allah, such as compassion, mercy etc. These are His qualities (sifaat).

If you say "Allah is displayed only in Sayf al-Huda's face", then you are knowingly or unknowingly confining Allah in some way or elevating the person to exceptional heights.

mutala'a: taqdeer ni kamaan thi ame logo na gahaan

Izza al-Huda Muhammad Ali raunaq wujood
je shah-na chhe arz thi imlakiyo junood

je ni peshaani-paak ma rabbani chhe namood
dekhi ne namood ne de chhe saro sujood

taqwa ni bas zira'at na daana chhe Izza ad-Deen
tawheed na nuqoosh na paana chhe Izza ad-Deen

-------------------------------
The above is in praise of 44th Dai, Sayedna Muhammad Izza ad-Deen

Opening line of Naseehat: Our wounds from fate's bow (gahaan=wounds, I believe)

Muhammad and Ali's splendour is (exists) in Izza al-Huda
the Shah whose solicitation has brought forth an army of sovereign kings

On whose blessed brow is Godliness displayed
Observing this (Godly display) all offer prostration

Izza ad-Deen is the very grain of Taqwa's harvest
Izza ad-Deen is a page of Tawheed's illustration (calligraphy)

------------------------------

Bro Porus,
Your Ilm has drowned you.

You consider yourself more superior than Doats and Hududs, As you are claiming they did shirk.....
Like you only are one who understands Tawheed,
All Doats didnt understand what Tawheed was and just teaching people to worship them,

How can you deny virtues of Duat Mutlaqeen if you have Ilm?
Either your mind has turned to Wahabi thought or Ilm has turned you to Jahil....

Sorry for harsh words but they are true for you.

porus wrote:

murtaza2152 wrote: What is Sifah of Allah?
Do you believe in giving sifat to Allah?

Truly, Allah is beyond all sifaaat. He cannot be contained within any of them.

However, Quran does use human attributes for Allah, such as compassion, mercy etc. These are His qualities (sifaat).

If you say "Allah is displayed only in Sayf al-Huda's face", then you are knowingly or unknowingly confining Allah in some way or elevating the person to exceptional heights.

Yes,, Duat Mutlaqeens are at Exceptional heights,
You must have heard in Waaz of Mola tus, Imams words "Aasman ma nathi Magar Khuda,Ane Zamin ma nathi Magar Hame"

So it Implies in Satr of Imam , Duats are on Seat of Imams ie They are seated on Imams chair ie Hujjat of Imam as.
So "Zamin ma nathi magar Duat Mutlaqeen".

murtaza2152 wrote:Bro Porus,
Your Ilm has drowned you.

You consider yourself more superior than Doats and Hududs, As you are claiming they did shirk.....
Like you only are one who understands Tawheed,
All Doats didnt understand what Tawheed was and just teaching people to worship them,

How can you deny virtues of Duat Mutlaqeen if you have Ilm?
Either your mind has turned to Wahabi thought or Ilm has turned you to Jahil....

Sorry for harsh words but they are true for you.

We are not talking about ilm of Duaat al-Mutlaqeen. We are talking about Sadiq Ali's naseehat and sentiments expressed in them. I object to sujood for any entity except Allah and which violates the Quran.

If you wish to discuss Dai's ilm then produce some snippets from them and I will comment.

murtaza2152 wrote: You must have heard in Waaz of Mola tus, Imams words "Aasman ma nathi Magar Khuda,Ane Zamin ma nathi Magar Hame"

Murtaza,

That is just poetry and license is taken for much hyperbole. I would like you to present a doctrine and its origin in scholars of the past.