Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

[mnoorani]

@mnoorani

Why are you bothered about something that we do not beleive in.

You may not believe in Zakat, but the Dawoodi Bohras do.
And the Proggies claim to follow Dawoodi Bohra texts, but it's very obvious that they do not practice it.

Summarising Fatimi/DB practice of Zakat. (Which they claim to follow).
1. There must be a leader to collect the Zakat in every age.
2. Only He can take the Zakat.
3. He will distribute it amoungst the 8 categories
4. Zakat given directly to anyone by not giving it to the leader is NOT acceptable, and is considered not giving Zakat.
(Sources - Daim ul Islam & Kitab al Himmah)

Concluding:
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

PROVE IT!
Prove it that dawoodi Bohras beleive in Zakaat and that Mola distributes it to the needy, Rasullallah used to do that but Mola distributes WAJEBAAT only to his immediate family. If you cannot prove it then keep quiet. If wajebaat was distributed amongst the poor bohras then you would not see the few families in dharavi or the entire town of bohras Mumbra in such pathetic conditions.!

[Adam]

Well, I was just curious about Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

I got the answer, crystal clear, so I'll rest my case.

Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

[mnoorani]

Well, I was just curious about Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

I got the answer, crystal clear, so I'll rest my case.

Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

Does MOLA give zakat as per FATEMI / DB beleifs ?
Or he and his family are exempted ,just like allowing his brothers to sell liquor at the Ambassador Hotel and also renting out their properties to wine shops?
" Mansoos karse su khataa,
Ehna sasra to daru vech ta hataa"

[Adam]

You can ask that on another relevant thread. I'll answer there.

I was just curious about Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?
I got the answer, crystal clear, so I'll rest my case.
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

[mnoorani]

" Chandi na maiz, sona na nal
Itlu aalishaan che saifee Mahal.
Kaash e bhai mumin ,tame
zakat tamaro aapo hame.
Ghana che apna ma miskeen.
kaash tamne bhi aave yakeen."

[Maqbool]

Adam is here only to ask questions and never reply to others who ask him a questions.

Now since he is trapped he is looking for safe passage to escape.

The bohras are never gives zakat they only give wazebat. For Wazebat there is no guide line issued by Allah and there fore Sayedna understand that he can use this forcefully collected fund for his and his family luxury. The muvasat is distributed only 5 to 10 percentage of what he gets as wazebat.

Adam the answer is given to you by many on this thread, and what the other asks you is in extensions to the subject. So don't try to run away by giving childish excuses. And please don't repeat your question like a parrot. you are making fun of yourself.

[anajmi]

4. Zakat given directly to anyone by not giving it to the leader is NOT acceptable, and is considered not giving Zakat.
(Sources - Daim ul Islam & Kitab al Himmah)

The irrelevance of these books is proven by the Quran in this ayah.

2:4 And who believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon thee, [O Prophet,] as well as in that which was bestowed before thy time: for it is they who in their innermost are certain of the life to come!

A muslim is not required to believe in anything that was revealed/created after the time of the prophet (saw). Daim and himmah can hence be rejected. They cannot replace the Quran.

[porus]

Summarising Fatimi/DB practice of Zakat. (Which they claim to follow).
1. There must be a leader to collect the Zakat in every age.
2. Only He can take the Zakat.
3. He will distribute it amoungst the 8 categories
4. Zakat given directly to anyone by not giving it to the leader is NOT acceptable, and is considered not giving Zakat.
(Sources - Daim ul Islam & Kitab al Himmah)

Concluding:
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

By 'Fatimi Practice', if you mean following the practices of the Fatimi Imams as described in Daim ul Islam, then that is clearly not the practice that is followed by DBs.

1. Daim states that Imam, not any leader, should be given the Zakaat. Bohra Imam does not exist anymore. Dai al-Mutlaq has not been appointed by the Imam. That office was not even a glimmer in Imam's eye. In short, Dai is not the Imam mentioned in Daimul Islam.

2. Dai does not collect Zakaat. Nor does any Bohra calculate his Zakaat according to rules specified in Daimul Islam. Dai collects Waajebaat.

3. There is no evidence that waajebat is used for purposes required for zakaat by the Quran and Daimul Islam. In particular, zakaat cannot be used for Dai's expenses, his family's expenses, investing for profit, building tourist musafrakhanas, mausoleums for the dead or masjids.

4. Zakaat given knowingly to anyone who does not transparently use it for the purpose specified in the Quran cannot be considered zakaat.

[Humsafar]

Well, I was just curious about Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?
I got the answer, crystal clear, so I'll rest my case.
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

What is crystal clear is that you abdes do not even know how much zakat you pay (as it lumped with wajebat) - a violation of Quranic and Fatimi/DB beliefs.
What is crystal clear is that you pay unspecified and unaccounted zakat to people who do not spend it the way it should be - a violation of Quranic and Fatimi/DB beliefs.
What is crystal clear is that you abdes do not follow the Quran and Fatimi/DB beliefs.
What is crystal clear is that you abdes follow the dictates of a cult which has usurped the Dawat.

[anajmi]

Well, I was just curious about Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?
I got the answer, crystal clear, so I'll rest my case.
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

You got the answer allright and in the process you got slapped around by wahhabis, progressives, atheists and pretty much everyone else.

[think]

can the money collected for zakaat be used to pay big salaries to the kothar, its zadas, their children, bhaisahebs, amils, mullas, etc? I believe, a very little part of the zakaat collection can go towards the salaries of the people who are invoved in distribution of the zakaat to the poor and needy of the community but most of it should be used for the purpose intended by Rasullillah for zakaat .
Also, can zakaat be paid from money in banks that has accrued interest?
Many ,or almost all the times I have witnessed that that when you go to pay the wajebaats to your local amil, he never questions or asks you about where and how the money was earned, on the contarary he bargains with you to get the most zakaat or another word wajebaat out of you and you have to finally negotiate with him. Is this how islamic rules were practised in the time of Rasullillah?
Did he also keep haggling with his mumineen to get the most money out of them?

[anajmi]

I believe, a very little part of the zakaat collection can go towards the salaries of the people who are invoved in distribution of the zakaat

I've had many discussions with those knowledgeable in zakat (and that does not include any abde idiot) and they agree that not a single penny of zakat can go towards the salaries of the people responsible for its distribution. Their salaries have to be paid out of a separate fund. When I send zakat money to India using one of the money transfer options, the fees that I am charged comes out of a different account and not from the zakat fund. If those that are distributing your zakat money are themselves eligible for zakat (and the bohra Dai is definitely not) then you can give them a portion of your zakat as you wish.

[accountability]

adam bhai you wrote "(Oh Mohammed, take Sadaqah (Zakaat) from them)"

Ayah is "Oh Mohammed , take sadaqah " how did you come by that God means zakaat, Sadaqa and zakaat are two completely different things, which are specified in quran. this is what I have been arguing that just giving and attributing whatever meaning from the ayahs has become habit. how do you all come by when you extend or add things, which god himself doesnot.
Do you want to prove that god himself was not clear, when he was sending divine message to prophet, but you can clarify for him.
In quran no where has god specified anyone to collect zakat. Abu Bakar tried to collect it by force, but in it he was not abetted even by umer, who was his real mentor. and on top of all, there is no evidence that Ali has ever collected zakaat from anyone. mind it he was khalifat ul muslimeen. and we rever him as the only heir to prophet. but he did not collect zakat.
second of all, wajebat does not say it is zakat, what they do, they put an amount at the bottom, that's all.
As porus has said even according to daim, the conditions are not fulfilled for collection of zakat.
I have no objection giving zakat, or collecting zakat by bohra administration. My only contention is , it is not zakat we are paying, rather it seems like a tax to remain in bohra fold.

[think]

but the forms that are filled out list a number of different items on top of the zakaat. Also these other items are in arabic ,like hub, etc which i do not even know. some think it is money collected for hub ul watani. a tax since you are living in a country where you can earn your living.

[Adam]

It's pretty obvious that none can answer the simple question when asked about what the Proggies really do, and justify it.

If you say Daim says you can only give to the Imam. Let's say we accept it.
So..... What do the PROGGIES do? There's no Imam for them! confusion confusion.

Concluding:
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

[think]

what is fatimi belief? if it means give zakaat to fatimi dai ,but fatimi dai has no relationship whatsoever with the fatimi family of rasulillah.

[ghulam muhammed]

Adam wrote:This in order will be distributed by the Prophet (leader) to the 8 Categories mentioned in 9:60.

Bro Adam,

Although it is mentioned that ONLY the "Prophet (s.a.w.)" can distribute zakat but you have added "Leader" in brackets out of your own will but then too is it permissible to give it to the leader even if he fails to distribute it to the 8 Categories as mentioned in 9:60 ?

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro Adam,

Before playing the same record again and again please answer my above mentioned query and also counter Bro porus' observations because he too has quoted from the daimul islam, the same book that you chose hence it is actually YOU who are confused and not the progressives as you are UNABLE to counter his observations.

You have been consistently putting your foot in the mouth time and again !!

[someone]

I think most people here are confusing zakaat and vajebaat or using them interchangeably. Vajebaat, from vajib, means compulsory or ones duty or responsibility to do / fulfill. As such, zakaat is part of the vajebaat, but does not constitute the total amount of vajebaat. One needs to clearly state on the form what amount is for which part of 'vajebaat', i.e. zakaat, upkeep of masjid, etc. Zakaat is for the poor and other categories as prescribed. Other funds collected as part of the vajebaat forms have their own use.

[accountability]

So, if my above post is correct, because it is not refuted, then no bohra is paying zakat, progressive or orthodox, as the amount collected has no mention of zakat in it. at the bottom you put a figure, never asked how much is zakat. payer is 100 percent sure that it is the tax to retain an active membership of this club. you are right, no one is paying zakat according to shia, ismaili, fatimi, dawoodi doctorine. because no one is paying zakat at all. it is anything but zakat.

[someone]

So, if my above post is correct, because it is not refuted, then no bohra is paying zakat, progressive or orthodox, as the amount collected has no mention of zakat in it. at the bottom you put a figure, never asked how much is zakat. payer is 100 percent sure that it is the tax to retain an active membership of this club. you are right, no one is paying zakat according to shia, ismaili, fatimi, dawoodi doctorine. because no one is paying zakat at all. it is anything but zakat.

The vajebaat forms list the different types of collections. The person submitting the vajebaat puts down on the form how much is for each type of collection.

[accountability]

no, wajebat form does have entry for zakat, but no one asks how much is zakat, nor the payer specifies it, because amil wants to extract as much amount as he could and payer wants to bargain for less, dont tell me this is not the norm, so where does zakat come in. zakat is paid two and half percent of accumulated wealth, most of the households have hundered of thousand rupees worth of gold, on which zakat is levied, but does any one pay accordingly. because as i said, it is not zakat, it is a kind of fee or tax to retain active membership of the club. what if a poor man has nothing left, is he exempt, you know he is not, he will have to pay no matter what, i have seen people asking for help, not for themselves, but just to pay wajebat. I can vouch for that.

[Fateh]

no, wajebat form does have entry for zakat, but no one asks how much is zakat, nor the payer specifies it, because amil wants to extract as much amount as he could and payer wants to bargain for less, dont tell me this is not the norm, so where does zakat come in. zakat is paid two and half percent of accumulated wealth, most of the households have hundered of thousand rupees worth of gold, on which zakat is levied, but does any one pay accordingly. because as i said, it is not zakat, it is a kind of fee or tax to retain active membership of the club. what if a poor man has nothing left, is he exempt, you know he is not, he will have to pay no matter what, i have seen people asking for help, not for themselves, but just to pay wajebat. I can vouch for that.

Who introduce this word wajebat?Any Immam or Dai ?When?You are correct my dear friend i also never know how much zakat i am paying & if we try then nothing will happen ,trust Allah as we give in the name of Allah & Allah is better to take answer from responsive.

[profastian]

I believe, a very little part of the zakaat collection can go towards the salaries of the people who are invoved in distribution of the zakaat

I've had many discussions with those knowledgeable in zakat (and that does not include any abde idiot)You mean that idiot wahabi mulla of yours and they agree that not a single penny of zakat can go towards the salaries of the people responsible for its distribution. Their salaries have to be paid out of a separate fund. When I send zakat money to India using one of the money transfer options, the fees that I am charged comes out of a different account and not from the zakat fund. If those that are distributing your zakat money are themselves eligible for zakat (and the bohra Dai is definitely not) then you can give them a portion of your zakat as you wish.

[anajmi]

not a bigger idiot than your mulla. Atleast he is not a conman!!

[profastian]

not a bigger idiot than your mulla. Atleast he is not a conman!!

So he is an idiot. Good.

[Maqbool]

It's pretty obvious that none can answer the simple question when asked about what the Proggies really do, and justify it.

If you say Daim says you can only give to the Imam. Let's say we accept it.
So..... What do the PROGGIES do? There's no Imam for them! confusion confusion.

Concluding:
Proggies don't give their Zakat in accordance to Fatimi/DB beliefs.

I think Adam is playing. He is not serious or he is idiot. Even most of the participant in this thread has clarified how and who they are giving Wazebat and Zakat, he is parroting the same thing.

Adam if you are serious, Humsafar has given you answer which is clear and he is from the progressive. now you give answer to all here that " Accepting a Wazebat in black is justified?"

[Maqbool]

I think most people here are confusing zakaat and vajebaat or using them interchangeably. Vajebaat, from vajib, means compulsory or ones duty or responsibility to do / fulfill. As such, zakaat is part of the vajebaat, but does not constitute the total amount of vajebaat. One needs to clearly state on the form what amount is for which part of 'vajebaat', i.e. zakaat, upkeep of masjid, etc. Zakaat is for the poor and other categories as prescribed. Other funds collected as part of the vajebaat forms have their own use.

Please clarify is the other funds collected in Wajebat like hub, Jiyarat fund, Haj fund, Salams etc. are vajib?

[Adam]

On request of GM, the answer to Porus opinions:

Daim states that Imam, not any leader, should be given the Zakaat.

ohra Imam does not exist anymore. Dai al-Mutlaq has not been appointed by the Imam.

It all comes down to the true authority. (Dawoodi Bohras have, others don't)
This is probably the problem in Porus s argument. He accepts that the Imam should collect(ie Zakaat CANNOT be distributed directly to the 8 categories, it must be given to the Imam).
He doesn't believe the Dai Muthlaq was appointed by the Imam.
Dawoodi Bohras do. Therefore, the Dai Muthlaq is the representative of the Imam, and carries out these responsibilities of collecting Zakat.
There must be a leader in every age to carry out the duties of Shariat.

The Daim and Himmah also mention that it is the peoples responsibility to give the Zakat to the leader, not anywhere else, and the leader will distribute it.

GM

Although it is mentioned that ONLY the "Prophet (s.a.w.)" can distribute zakat but you have added "Leader" in brackets out of your own will but then too is it permissible to give it to the leader even if he fails to distribute it to the 8 Categories as mentioned in 9:60 ?

I haven't added "leader" by my own. This is the Fatimi belief in accordance to the Quran (Daim and Himmah), that the Quran is universal and its practices are for every day and age. This is what the DBs believe and the Proggies CLAIM to follow (but they don't).

According to Daim, every Muslim must give it to their own leader. Unfortunately Muslims don't have a leader, and thus their practices of Islam are incomplete.

Proggies don't practice according to DB/Fatimi belief.

[zulfikar123]

Daim is the book of Bohra and Qur'an is the book for the muslim. Therefore bohra do what they do and muslims do what they do.