Authority?

[badrijanab]

Dear Sunni friends & brothers, please advise: Who authorized Hazrat Abu Bakr sahab, Hz. Umar sahab and Hz. Usman sahab to represent Islam? What authority do they carry to speak on behalf of Islam? Or are they self-appointed or self-declared Islamic authority?

Dear Ithna Asheri friends & brothers, please advise: who authorized Ayatollah's, Marja, etc to represent Islam? Per Ithna Asheri their 12th Imam was suddenly disappeared leaving no authority behind him. So, who authorized these Ayatollah's to speak on behalf of Islam? Who authorized them to collect 'Khums' on behalf of Imam? Hazrat Ayatollah Khomeini sahab claimed Wilayat ul-Faqih and called himself Wilayat ul-Mutlaqa, meaning that Hazrat Khomeini sahab has absolute authority from Allah since he was the “representative” of the Imam in his absence - who granted and who validated this authority from Imam to Hazrat Khomeini sahab?

I am asking above to personally learn answers and my intention is not to be nasty. So, please do share your knowledge. Thanks.

[anajmi]

Who authorized Hazrat Abu Bakr sahab, Hz. Umar sahab and Hz. Usman sahab to represent Islam?

Hz. Ali authorized them when he served under their khilafat. Since Hz. Ali served under them (willingly or unwillingly), it is the duty of all his lovers and followers to follow his path and serve under the Sunni leaders within their community (willingly or unwillingly).

[badrijanab]

Who authorized Hazrat Abu Bakr sahab, Hz. Umar sahab and Hz. Usman sahab to represent Islam?

Hz. Ali authorized them when he served under their khilafat. Since Hz. Ali served under them (willingly or unwillingly), it is the duty of all his lovers and followers to follow his path and serve under the Sunni leaders within their community (willingly or unwillingly).

Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has also worked as contract labour in the farms/fields UNDER the command of the owners of those farms - thus that make those Muslims, Non-muslims farm owners as the authority of Islam? Because Mola Ali a.s. has served those farm owners thus that grant authority to those farm owners to speak on behalf of Islam or to represent Islam?

[anajmi]

Those farm owners were not khalifas who were succeeded by Hz Ali to tend to their farms!! Besides, if Hz Ali was working under those farm owners, we can safely say that those farm owners were honest people otherwise Hz Ali would've never worked for them right? Which also means that they were given authority by Hz Ali to tend to their farms!!

[think]

badri janab, read your interesting and knowledgeable treatise on the 7th. 8th and 9th. Imam . enlighten is more on the 10th, 11th. and 12th. Imam . All that transpired during those times and how the true Ias adopted the names of their Dai to avoid being killed by the abbaside Khalif Haroon Rashid is indeed interesting. Please continue..

[badrijanab]

Those farm owners were not khalifas who were succeeded by Hz Ali to tend to their farms!! Besides, if Hz Ali was working under those farm owners, we can safely say that those farm owners were honest people otherwise Hz Ali would've never worked for them right? Which also means that they were given authority by Hz Ali to tend to their farms!!

Sir, I didn't understand your point. Can you please elaborate - in the context of original post? Thanks.

[anajmi]

If Hz Ali worked under a farm owner, then the farm owner had Hz Ali's authorization to tend to farms. Similarly, if Hz Ali worked under a khalifa of Islam, then that means that the khalifa had Hz Ali's authorization to be a khalifa of Islam.

[badrijanab]

If Hz Ali worked under a farm owner, then the farm owner had Hz Ali's authorization to tend to farms. Similarly, if Hz Ali worked under a khalifa of Islam, then that means that the khalifa had Hz Ali's authorization to be a khalifa of Islam.

Thanks for explanation. Now I understood your point. Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has worked as labour under Jew's also - does that approve Jew faith to be correct for those employers of Mola Ali a.s.?

Mr. Anajmi bhai, has Islam authorized those three Hazraat to act as Khaleefa on behalf of Islam?

[anajmi]

you are mixing apples and oranges. He worked under jews, but was his jewish boss a Rabbi? or a religious leader? NO!! But the Khalifas were religious leaders and since Hz Ali worked under them under the faculty of Islam, they have his authorization.

Mr. Anajmi bhai, has Islam authorized those three Hazraat to act as Khaleefa on behalf of Islam?

So you don't think authority of Hz Ali is of any value right? And Hz Ali's authority doesn't mean authority of Islam right?

[badrijanab]

But the Khalifas were religious leaders...

Who made (authorized) Khaleefa to be religious leaders at first place?

[anajmi]

We have already established that everything happens with the will of Allah.

[badrijanab]

We have already established that everything happens with the will of Allah.

Where/when/how Allah has authorized those three Hazraat to be representing Allah, speak on beahalf of Allah?

[anajmi]

Through the authority of Hz Ali who served under them.

[badrijanab]

Through the authority of Hz Ali who served under them.

Bhai Anajmi sahab,

Per your previos posts in this very thread. You said, those three Hazraat were religious khaleefa; because Ameer al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has worked for them that validated / attested their RELIGIOUS khilafat.

So, we are back to square-one: who made (AUTHORIZED) them to be "ISLAM RELIGION" khaleefa's at first place?

[anajmi]

I don't mind going back to square one. I have been going back to square one for the last 10 years. Let me start from square one. Everything happens with the will of Allah. Allah made them khalifa and Hz Ali accepted their khilafat.

I do not expect you to move from square one. We can stay on square one for as long as you like.

[badrijanab]

Allah made them khalifa and Hz Ali accepted their khilafat.

Every sane person will agree that Allah made those three Hazraat as khaleefa, there is not an iota doubt about it.

However those caliphs were caliphs/kings in same way like Ghori, Shiva Ji, Maharana Pratap, or others kings and monarchs were/are.

Dimension changes when you attach "religious" authority with them. I am trying to learn answer to simple question: Who made (authorized) those three caliphs to represent Islam, to speak on behalf of Islam?

(i) Your reply was, because Mola Ali a.s. has serviced them so their "Religious Caliphate" is validated.
(ii) I reminded, Mola Ali a.s. has also serviced as labour under Jew's and other non-Muslim employers; by same token (your logic) it will validate faith of Jew/Christians!!!
(iii) You said, "Farm owners were not religious Khaleefa, they were into farming; later Hz. Ali working for them; have attested their farming practice. Likewise, those were religious khaleefa and later Ali served them attest their authority as religious khaleefa."
(iv) I repeated, "Who at FIRST PLACE authorized/made those three as RELIGIOUS khaleefa? Who authorized them AT FIRST PLACE to speak on behalf of Islam? Who authorized AT FIRST PLACE them to represent Islam?
(v) You said all happen per Allah's will, so Allah made them Islam religion Khleefa.
(vi) I am inquiring, when/where/how have Allah athorized/made those three as religious Khaleefa? When/where/how have Allah made them authority to represent Allah or speak on behalf of Allah?
(vii) You say, "Through the authority of Hz Ali who served under them".
(viii)
(A) You do NOT have first hand proof to prove religious authority of those three Caliph hazraat. Do you?
(B) You are depending on second hand source of Mola Ali a.s. servicing under them to defend those khaleefa having religious authority! It is like, "Apni roti doosre ke chuleh per senkna".
(C) Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has served under Jews/non-muslim: that doesn't validate faith of their! Or it doesn't give religious authority to his Jew employers!
(D) Read following more carefully: How Mola Ali a.s. working under three caliphs gives those caliphs authority to speak on behalf of Islam or to represent Islam?
(E) Moos a.s. was employed under Firaun; does that attest the religious authority of Firaun (claiming to be God)?
(F) Moosa a.s. was employed under Hz. Shoib; does that make Hz. Shoib superior authority than Moosa a.s. himself?
(G) Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. worked UNDER his employer Khadeeja a.s. does that make Molatina Khadeeja a.s. a superior authority than Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. himself? No.
(I) When Angel Jibraeel recited dua of "Subbuhoon Kuddusoon" Prophet Ibraheem a.s. sold everything to him including himslef (pledging to work under him), does that make Angel Jibraeel superior than Prophet Ibraheem a.s.? Because Ibraheem a.s. will be working under Jibraeel does that attest in any way any "religious authority" of Jibraeel?! No.
(J) Likewise, Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. working for those three Caliphs doesn't attest for their religious authority.

Hence, in the light of above learning, lets learn: Dear Sunni friends & brothers, please advise: Who authorized Hazrat Abu Bakr sahab, Hz. Umar sahab and Hz. Usman sahab to represent Islam? What authority do they carry to speak on behalf of Islam? Or are they self-appointed or self-declared Islamic authority?

[anajmi]

You do NOT have first hand proof to prove religious authority of those three Caliph hazraat. Do you?

Hz Ali is my first hand proof. Hz Ali served under the khilafat of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman. They were religious authority. They passed many religious laws and Hz Ali hasn't overturned any law passed by them. So we can safely say that the first 3 khalifas were appointed by Allah to be religious authority of Islam and had the support of Hz Ali.

(E) Moos a.s. was employed under Firaun; does that attest the religious authority of Firaun (claiming to be God)?

Comparing apples and oranges. Moosa was not employed by Firaun, he was the adopted son of Firaun and fought with the Firaun after he became a prophet. Hz Ali never fought with the first 3 khalifas.

(F) Moosa a.s. was employed under Hz. Shoib; does that make Hz. Shoib superior authority than Moosa a.s. himself?

Comparing apples and pineapples. Hz Shoib was the superior authority in the work that Moosa was employed for. Moosa was not employed by Hz. Shoib to assist him in his religious khilafat, but in his business.

(G) Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. worked UNDER his employer Khadeeja a.s. does that make Molatina Khadeeja a.s. a superior authority than Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. himself? No.

Comparing apples and watermelons. Prophet (saw) was employed by Khadeeja (ra) for business purposes and she was the authority in those business matters. She was not a khalifa and the prophet (saw) wasn't responsible for assisting her in her khilafat.

(I) When Angel Jibraeel recited dua of "Subbuhoon Kuddusoon" Prophet Ibraheem a.s. sold everything to him including himslef (pledging to work under him), does that make Angel Jibraeel superior than Prophet Ibraheem a.s.? Because Ibraheem a.s. will be working under Jibraeel does that attest in any way any "religious authority" of Jibraeel?! No.

Comparing apples to grapes. Did Jibraeel say that he was doing the job of a religious khalifa? Was Prophet Ibraheem employed to assist in religious khilafat? No!!

(J) Likewise, Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. working for those three Caliphs doesn't attest for their religious authority.

Ali was employed to assist in the religious khilafat of the first three khalifas who were khalifas of Islam after the prophet (saw) passed away. Hence Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman were appointed khalifa by the will of Allah and since Hz Ali supported their khilafat they had the authority of the greatest shia Imam!!

[think]

what authority? the clergy is busy in ziafats and money collections. They come to the mosque conduct prayers and go out the back. They are not aware of the bleeding nerves of the poor bohris. They do not know and do not want to share the problems of the poor bohri. The clergy and their children go first class and most of the amalats are given to them in the west. Where is islam in bohri's? All it is a charitable institution to grab money for their own personal use.

[anajmi]

The reason badrijanab keeps asking this same question over and over again is because he is an idol worshipper who worships human idols. He is not interested in the will of Allah or Allah's authority. He wants the first 3 khalifas to have human authority. Fortunately, sunnis are not in the business of twisting and turning ayahs and hadith to show that the prophet (saw) appointed them as khalifas. The will of Allah is sufficient. And since the will of Allah has superiority over the will of the prophet (saw), Hz Abu Bakr, Hz Umar and Hz Uthman became khalifa before Hz Ali. Unfortunately, this became impossible for the worshippers of Hz Ali to digest and so they created this concept of Imamat by twisting the quran and hadith of the prophet (saw), and then made Hz Ali the foundation of it!!

[progticide]

I don't mind going back to square one. I have been going back to square one for the last 10 years. Let me start from square one. Everything happens with the will of Allah. Allah made them khalifa and Hz Ali accepted their khilafat. .

Mushriq o Munafiq Finati,
Answer this.....Allah, the almighty and benevolent, made Adam his Khalifa on Earth. This is specifically mentioned in Ayat 2:30 and many other Ayats in the Holy Quran.
Allah made Prophet Muhammad(SAWW) as his Messenger, this also is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran.
The succession of Prophet Yusuf after Prophet Yaqub, Prophet Ismail and Prophet Ishaq after Prophet Ibrahim, and many other successions are also clearly documented in the Holy Quran.
The Shias (atleast for argument sake) have the historical event of Ghadir Khumm which is also documented and accepted by various Sunni authorities where Prophet(SAWW) said to the gathering "Man qunto maulaho fa haza Aliyun maula" and made Ali his successor and Maula of the Muslims after him.

Can you please quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas?

[zinger]

Superb Progticide bhai.

Anajmi ji, koi jawaab? or do you want to discard Ghadir Khum as another Shia fantasy?

[zinger]

Badri janab bhai,

you have made your point. leave it now.

Progticide has also shown that there is no answer for Anajmi to give or fall back on.

Suggest you leave it at this point.

nice observation though.

[Muslim First]

The Shias (atleast for argument sake) have the historical event of Ghadir Khumm which is also documented and accepted by various Sunni authorities where Prophet(SAWW) said to the gathering "Man qunto maulaho fa haza Aliyun maula" and made Ali his successor and Maula of the Muslims after him.

Brother read Sunni argument here.
Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... khumm.html

Imamat is not mentioned in Qur'an and 5 Namaaz are mentioned, how to do it is in various Ahadith, Hujj is there, Roza is there and Zakat is there but not the percentage. Most important part of wilayat is left to circular (Gol Gol) lengthy interpretation!
Why not a single Aya saying Muslims will need a guide from Prophets progeny.

And why so many splits of Imamat lines?
Is it credible that 12th imam is still living?
Why is imam Zaman hiding?
Why Aga khan can not ask some of his followers to perform proper Namaaz?
Why not all Shia say whatever we have is a Fanal Quran instead of creating doubts?
Those claim Imam or his appointed reps possess ilm of Tawil, why don't they put it on paper? Why secrete Sabak? Put it out. Those who have capacity to understand will do it. Simpletons will ignore it and go on with their life. Smart asses will argu on it forever.


Badrijanab and porgie bhai saheb, this are points to ponder and need clear explainations.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

Can you please quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas?

There is no need of it.
We believe Quran to be final authority. Simple straight itransations or interpretations are sufficient for us.
Muhammad is our final prophet.
There is clear mention of Namaaz, Roza Hujj and zakat in Quran and we accept it.
And that is our religion.
And guess what, 85% of Muslims are with it. Ever wonder?

[progticide]

Can you please quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas?

There is no need of it.
We believe Quran to be final authority. Simple straight itransations or interpretations are sufficient for us.
Muhammad is our final prophet.
There is clear mention of Namaaz, Roza Hujj and zakat in Quran and we accept it.
And that is our religion.
And guess what, 85% of Muslims are with it. Ever wonder?

Murdood,
Quran mein Namaz, Roza, Hajj, zakat ke baare mein pada aur Ahle Zikr ke baare mein nahin pada? Quran 21:7 aur Quran 16:43; kabhi pada in Ayat ko ya koi aisi kitaab tere mullaon ne tujhe thamaai he jisme ye Ayat aur ye alfaaz hi nahin he?

Baat ko gol gol ghuma raha he naalayak....Tu aur tera mushriq o munafiq bhai anajmi sidhe sidhe jawaab do....Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

[Muslim First]

There is no need of it.
We believe Quran to be final authority. Simple straight itransations or interpretations are sufficient for us.
Muhammad is our final prophet.
There is clear mention of Namaaz, Roza Hujj and zakat in Quran and we accept it.
And that is our religion.
And guess what, 85% of Muslims are with it. Ever wonder?

Murdood,
Quran mein Namaz, Roza, Hajj, zakat ke baare mein pada aur Ahle Zikr ke baare mein nahin pada? Quran 21:7 aur Quran 16:43; kabhi pada in Ayat ko ya koi aisi kitaab tere mullaon ne tujhe thamaai he jisme ye Ayat aur ye alfaaz hi nahin he?

Baat ko gol gol ghuma raha he naalayak....Tu aur tera mushriq o munafiq bhai anajmi sidhe sidhe jawaab do....Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

Brother
You have some problems. You must belong to elite class in your religion and that shows up the way you call names. If I had used this kind of language Doctor Saheb would have reprimanded me.

Anyway read my last 2 posts. That is sufficient for intelligent DB of all persuasions.

Wasalaam

BTW
Where is Br porus?

Br Fateh
Did you liked Br progticide's name calling. Dumb abdes always learn from their leaders.

[zinger]

progiticde bhai, others have requested you to do this, and so do i.

do get into arguments, we will support you, but do not degrade yourself and our bawasaab by using such foul language. otherwise there is no difference between us and...

[Fateh]

Salam bhai MF,
Yes progicide should not use this type of language.Any kind of debate should be in a polite manner ,we all should have control our emotions when writing.Its also my mistake for liking this type of post in which this type of words used.I dislike your belief not you.

[anajmi]

Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Khilafat of your khalifas as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

There are many ayahs that establish this. Look at ayah 21:7 and 16:43. You can also look at ayah 5:55. If these do not convince you then here is the easiest approach known as pesticide approach.

Take this ayah from the Quran - وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً . Khalifa is clearly mentioned over here. Who is it referring to? Adam? But Adam was a prophet and not khalifa. Hence this ayah is referring to the 4 khalifa of Islam (May Allah forgive me for doing to the Quran what the pesticide has done to it. I am doing this only for demonstration purposes).

If this does not convince you, then you can take the time tested shia approach to the Quran. Take three words from ayah 2:2, 5 words from 2:34, 7 words from 33:33, 11 words from 11:22, take 5 words from hadith 253 from book 3 of Bukhari, and 3 words and a "wow" (arabic "and" - ataf) from hadith 45 from book 2 of Muslim. Combine these words with hadith 775 from book 4 of Abu Dawood and then add the definite Arabic article "AL" and then read it all as one sentence. You will get the proof that Allah made them khalifa.

One question for pesticide that will give him sleepless nights, unless he chooses to use the time tested shia approach.

Can you quote a single Ayat from the Holy Quran or an authentic Hadith which establishes the Daawat of your Dai as the will of Allah or the will of the Prophet(SAWW)?

[anajmi]

One other thing, if khilafat is such a big problem, why did Hz Ali become a khalifa? Didn't he know that khilafat cannot be proven from Quran or Sunnah? Shouldn't he have changed his title from Khalifa to Imam and the rule from khilafat to Imamat? He did no such thing. So I think we should all accept khilafat and become one Ummah.