Why do the DBs do sajda to Dai and kiss everyone's feet

[Kaka Akela]

The best bad example of bowing, prostrating and kissing the feet (not touching) of a human being, a landlord, is in the following video link. Is it the highest level of love and respect, worship, or surrender to a proud human devil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GvELvMi ... etailpagee

The original meaning of prostration (submit one's-self before another) in the heaven before coming to the Planet Earth was known by all three intelligent spices (angels, jinn and humans) of God and that meaning is still in our electronic mind atlas. "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam". And they prostrated except Iblîs (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allâh)(The Quran, Chapter 2: 34).

All human beings living on this planet Earth since beginning are created from Allah SWT and they received 315 divine books and 124,000 prophets (Pl. Refer. Hadith # 21257; Musnad Ahmed Bin Hanbal) in different regions of the world. In old commandments of Allah SWT, the practice of prostration was not forbidden. For example, Prophet Yousuf’s (PBUH) brothers and parents fell down in prostration before him. That means, the prostration for paying respect was permissible at the time, but with the advent of Islam, a complete and final revelation from Allah SWT, prostration before anyone other than Allah is strictly prohibited. Bowing (bending backs), prostrating, tawaaf (circling), animal sacrifice, etc. are all acts of worship, which are the rights of Allah SWT alone.

The best gesture to express love, honor, and tenderness to parents, elders or opponents (especially to get things done or to cool down) is to kiss hands, foreheads or shoulders. All these acts of gestures do not make any confusion in their meanings and simultaneously not against human nafs (inner self) or not against Islamic point of view.

[porus]

The best bad example of bowing, prostrating and kissing the feet (not touching) of a human being, a landlord, is in the following video link. Is it the highest level of love and respect, worship, or surrender to a proud human devil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GvELvMi ... etailpagee

Mushriks, one and all!

Prophet Yousuf’s (PBUH) brothers and parents fell down in prostration before him.

This interpretation is incorrect. The pronoun him should be HIM with upper case H. It refers to Allah.

In ayat 12:100, it states that "Yusuf honored his parents." Following that there is Arabic 'waaw' which translators simply translate as 'and'. It could equally be 'waaw haaliya". In that case, it would mean that Yusuf honored his parents while, or immediately after, they prostrated to Allah in gratitude.

Yaqub was the father of Yusuf and also a Nabi. Thus while they were equal in nubuwwat, it is Yusuf who honored him. It is inconceivable that one Nabi would prostrate to another and especially the father to a son. In any case, if you read the 'Stories of the Prophets', Yaqub appeared to have had the foresight about what would happen to Yusuf.

As far as angels prostrating to Adam is concerned, we must remember that we are not angels and the command to prostrate to Adam is not for human beings.

[Al Zulfiqar]

WHY DO THE DB'S DO SAJDA TO DAI AND KISS HIS FEET?

because they have been systematically led astray by the last 2 dai's into believing that they are divine and equal to allah in status. the bohras have been deliberately dumbed down and turned into donkeys, subtly brainwashed and indoctrinated to the extent that bohras kiss the photo of the dai and even teach their little innocent kids to do the same. all these periodically released stories of miracles of the dai are part of a sinister plan to elevate his status to allah and drum into gullible and simpleton abde minds that their dai is superhuman and divine. the conclusion is that for bohras now all that matters in their world is the dai, to the exclusion of allah, muhammed, ali and everyone else.

in a curious turn of events, the divinity of the dai is somehow transferred in part to his family. so now his mongrel sons and daughters too are divine and have to be treated on par, as those of 'exalted blood'. elderly bohras are forced to bow, scrape and grovel in front of 10-12 year old pre-pubescents and shower them with money laden envelopes.

an entire community of intelligent, educated and sensible people have been reduced to retards and donkeys who deserve only kicks, blows and abuse. a point has come where if the spit, p*** and sh## of the dai are packaged, the abdes will even line up to pay for the same!!!

su eni niraali shaan chhe!

[genesis]

Its a most appalling sight to see mansoos perched on a pedestal offering his two feet to be kissed by the masses in a stream while he goes about multi-tasking with his other routine work of signing papers, issuing instructions to his chamchas,etc. without most of the time even casting a glance at his herd who have lined up below to kiss his feet. There is no precedence of this kind of baithaks in the heydays of his father aqa moula except perhaps after he became infirm and exceedingly old. But mansoos is in his prime so why is there such an early onset of decaying sensitivities and conscience ? What exactly transpires in his mind while seated in that state ? Why dont the Abdes realise the monstrosity of all this ?

[humanbeing]

It is human mind’s dependence on tanglible god. Ones who do not believe in Unseen God. They need Idols to project their worship.

Idols can be of people, stones, legends etc.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Its a most appalling sight to see mansoos perched on a pedestal offering his two feet to be kissed by the masses in a stream while he goes about multi-tasking with his other routine work of signing papers, issuing instructions to his chamchas,etc. without most of the time even casting a glance at his herd who have lined up below to kiss his feet.

i suggest that in order to maximise the income from sheep and donkeys, mansoos should also allow kissing of his feet while asleep at night. he can get his forty winks and the idiots their 'bosa's'.

[Adam]

@ PORUS

Prophet Yousuf’s (PBUH) brothers and parents fell down in prostration before him.

Yaqub was the father of Yusuf and also a Nabi. Thus while they were equal in nubuwwat, it is Yusuf who honored him. It is inconceivable that one Nabi would prostrate to another and especially the father to a son. In any case, if you read the 'Stories of the Prophets', Yaqub appeared to have had the foresight about what would happen to Yusuf.

As far as angels prostrating to Adam is concerned, we must remember that we are not angels and the command to prostrate to Adam is not for human beings.

@ PORUS
You are already aware of my beliefs (Dawoodi Bohra beliefs) in Sujood, as also ordered in Kitab al Himmah by Syedna Qazi Noman RA, and other Fatemi Books.
Only Since you are an academic and are well versed in Arabic am I discussing this with you. Others, I may choose ignore.

You said:

This interpretation is incorrect. The pronoun him should be HIM with upper case H. It refers to Allah.
In ayat 12:100, it states that "Yusuf honored his parents." Following that there is Arabic 'waaw' which translators simply translate as 'and'. It could equally be 'waaw haaliya". In that case, it would mean that Yusuf honored his parents while, or immediately after, they prostrated to Allah in gratitude.

My answer:
1. Allah is not mentioned as a subject in any ayat closer to this context, thus the ـه in له talks about "someone" other Allah. They gave Sajda to SOMEONE (a human).

2. It's acceptable by most/some Mufassirs that this person was in fact Yusuf Nabi AS.
For an example, quoting a Sunni English translation "And he raised his parents up on the throne, and they all fell before him in prostration." (I am aware that some other translators do use the word "Him" as in Allah, but as mentioned in point (1), it's more likely to be a person, ie Yusuf AS. You may also be aware, that MANY do talk about the prostrating to Yusuf, but they interpret it as a "semi - prostrate", quoting one person:

"And he raised his parents, he seated them next to him, upon the throne, and they fell down, that is, his parents and brothers, prostrating before him — a prostration that was [actually] a bowing down, not placing their foreheads down [on the ground]; this was their standard [form of] greeting at that time."

2A) So, it's understood that the Sajda was to Yusuf.
2B) Since the above is clear, Next should be the interpretation of the word "Sujood" and what it means. Since some don't accept Sajda to a man, they try to change the meaning of the word. As far as I know, (as well as you, since you know arabic) سجد only has one clear meaning.

3. Once his brothers give sujood to him, Yusuf AS says out "My father, here is the meaning/fulfillment/replica of my early dream " alluding to the prostration of stars, the sun, and the moon جعلها ربي حقا (Allah fulfilled my dream Exactly).
And when Yusuf AS describes this in Ayat 4, he says رأيتهم لي (I saw them doing Sajda to ME). The only way the replica of the dream could have been is if they did Sajda to Yusuf AS.

Note: It is Fatemi belief that the parents (Yaqoob Nabi) were not amoungst those who gave Sajda to Yusuf, as they were already on the Throne beside Yusuf AS. It was the brothers and others who did Sajda.

Let's keep this discussion intelligent.
I'd like to hear your answer. (Expecting idiotic comments from others, this thread will go off course, so I request you to PM me if I haven't seen it.)

[Al Zulfiqar]

o great scholar and defender of haramkhor daawat - adam,

since you consider everyone else on this forum as not on par with you and stupid idiots, you should continue your discussion via pm or pvt email with porus.

this forum does not belong to you or to your slave masters, that you dare to dictate to us who can and cannot participate on which thread. it does not run according to your bloody convenience! that is the height of arrogance and bullying which is best confined to your masjids/markaz's where you can secretly continue with your kufr of performing sajda to the dai and then calling it all sorts of fanciful names like "sajda ubudiyya wa taqriman wal taziman wal ardh".

that admin allows goons like you in this forum is a privilege, not your birthright!

idiot!

[porus]

1. Allah is not mentioned as a subject in any ayat closer to this context, thus the ـه in له talks about "someone" other Allah. They gave Sajda to SOMEONE (a human).

Not mentioning the subject or object explicitly is not uncommon in Quran. You are aware that many times they are 'mahDoof'. They need to be extrapolated in the context of the Quran as a a whole. That is why sujood can only be to Allah.

You appear to have changed your stance somewhat regarding sujood. You are now stating that 'sujood' to Yusuf was not necessarily the kind of sujood that we perform in namaaz but merely a 'bowing'. Another point you are making is that those who bowed this way did not include Yusuf's parents, who were on the throne at the time and that that is the Fatimid belief.

I am tempted to go along with this belief except that, based on this incident in the Quran, you can only justify bowing to a Dai and not the full sujood as Bohras are doing.

(By the way, I have a different interpretation of what Yusuf meant when he said he saw the stars etc doing sujood to him. This obviously is not literally possible. My interpretation is that Yusuf saw them positioned below him rather than above which would normally be the case. The taawil is not made clear before he met his parents. That is surprising. It is unlike when Yusuf explains the taawil of the dreams of his two fellow prisoners which later came true. What Yusuf is saying is that the dream foretold him that Allah would raise him in rank in relation to his brothers. Remember, he told his dream first to Yaqub, his father. Yaqub then warned him not to relate it to his brothers.)

[porus]

I want to add that Yusuf was a small boy when he saw the dream and may not have interpreted it for his father or brothers because of his age. He was then immediately separated from his family. That is only a speculation. That is why we have to wait until Yusuf had come of age before he revealed the dream's taawil to his father.

[godmoney]

Dai we can understand but it not till dai,,

Here dai full family want them royal treatment infact the jamai of some bhai shaheb need all vip treatment like if he come to some one place for so call zihafat ,He charge them fixed amount as per status of the person,Why do they demand money

[Bohra spring]

Dai we can understand but it not till dai,,

Absolutely not this is forbidden in Islam, it is a grave sin. Kissing the hand is the lowest bow , acceptable . If you want to show fatherly love then the most you can do is kiss or hug to the knees.

Going beyond that crosses a thin line towards shirk.

What is contradictory , bohras are so cautious of physical taharat with woozu and ghusl , but in these actions they don't know how to not cross the line from walayat into shirk.

[godmoney]

ya till knee i am talking abt. see ppl are brain wash no guidance is given to them

something is done wrong by any amil or zada they wud say it moula faraman which may be not true this is what i feel

[Adam]

Not mentioning the subject or object explicitly is not uncommon in Quran. You are aware that many times they are 'mahDoof'. They need to be extrapolated in the context of the Quran as a a whole. That is why sujood can only be to Allah.

True, but it's backed up by literary evidence.
But in this context, and according to most of the NORMAL SUNNI TAFSEERS, it accepts the Sajda to Yusuf AS.

You appear to have changed your stance somewhat regarding sujood. You are now stating that 'sujood' to Yusuf was not necessarily the kind of sujood that we perform in namaaz but merely a 'bowing'.

Incorrect. I only quoted the "bowing" caption from other SUNNI TAFSEERS, to explain to you that they accept that the Sajda was for Yusuf.
They only differ from the "way" the Sajda was given. That is why i mentioned it.
I haven't changed my views. Sajda = Prostrating, on the earth.

You're interpretation of the stars etc can be correct to one sense. And yes, he was elevated. For example, how does a star do Sajda? What is its head?
What is interesting is, if you take Sajda to mean a philosophical prostration (Stars etc), or a physical prostration (Brothers), BOTH ways are mentioned in this Surat.
And both beliefs/thoughts are necessary when giving Sajda to the Prophet, Imam, Dai al Satr

But right now all we are discussing is the SAJDA TO YUSUF, how how OTHERS (not just Bohras) accept that it was for YUSUF AS.

[Adam]

For those Proggies who supposedly believe in Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin and accept Syedi Sadiq Ali Sahebs Nasihat:

(From The famous "Ghar mara Jism")
Saabiq na je logo che, khaliq ni wala andar
te sab no WASEELO LAI aa Sadiq Ali Muztar
Te baad jhukawi sar, moula na na qadamo par ---- (Then bow your head unto the feed of your Moula, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin
Em Araz kare che ye, eh Abdeali Sarwar!

For those you don't accept the Seydna Abdeali Saifuddin.... please ignore.

[murtaza2152]

More Nasihats by Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb on topic of Sujood to Dai

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5917&hilit=sadiq

[badrijanab]

More Nasihats by Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb on topic of Sujood to Dai

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5917&hilit=sadiq

Murtaza 2152

Sheikh Sadik Ali prophecy is: 46th is the last rightful Dai Mutlaq. If you believe in his Nasihat then have courage to follow his prophecy.

[Adam]

More Nasihats by Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb on topic of Sujood to Dai
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5917&hilit=sadiq

Murtaza 2152
Sheikh Sadik Ali prophecy is: 46th is the last rightful Dai Mutlaq. If you believe in his Nasihat then have courage to follow his prophecy.

Baseless lies.

Very simply. If you followed Syedi Sadiq Ali, you'd follow what he taught and preached. Sajda to the Dai.
Quoting you "have courage to follow his prophecy".

[badrijanab]

Murtaza 2152
Sheikh Sadik Ali prophecy is: 46th is the last rightful Dai Mutlaq. If you believe in his Nasihat then have courage to follow his prophecy.

Baseless lies.

Very simply. If you followed Syedi Sadiq Ali, you'd follow what he taught and preached. Sajda to the Dai.
Quoting you "have courage to follow his prophecy".

Kothar do not follow Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib. We DB mumin do diligently follow Shk. Sadik Ali sahib nasihat.

And as per our lord Sheik Sadik Ali prophecy - 46th is the last rightful Dai and after him are all claimant to Dai office are "mitti ke dewta" = not real, but idol.

[Adam]

@BADRI JANAB

Very simply

(From The famous "Ghar mara Jism")
Saabiq na je logo che, khaliq ni wala andar
te sab no WASEELO LAI aa Sadiq Ali Muztar
Te baad jhukawi sar, moula na na qadamo par ---- (Then bow your head unto the feed of your Moula, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin
Em Araz kare che ye, eh Abdeali Sarwar!

Do you accept the above from Sadiq Ali Sahebs Nasihat? Falling on to the feet of the Dai?
Yes or No?

[Kaka Akela]

The big question that no one has answered as yet in this whole discussion is :
Did people do sajda to Panjatan Paak ?? if not, then with what Imam did it start?? if not then what Dai did it start??

An interesting quote I just read today that very much applies to today's Kothar to all the jamea educated, 100% brain-washed idiots is:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis

[badrijanab]

@BADRI JANAB

Very simply

(From The famous "Ghar mara Jism")
Saabiq na je logo che, khaliq ni wala andar
te sab no WASEELO LAI aa Sadiq Ali Muztar
Te baad jhukawi sar, moula na na qadamo par ---- (Then bow your head unto the feed of your Moula, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin
Em Araz kare che ye, eh Abdeali Sarwar!

Do you accept the above from Sadiq Ali Sahebs Nasihat? Falling on to the feet of the Dai?
Yes or No?

Is falling on feet = posture like Sajda to Allah?

Burhanuddin and TS make their subject to offer sajda to them like the one offered to Allah - this is wrong. There are two types of Sajda, one to auliya-Allah and other to Allah - posture of both are different.

Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib says falling in Dai's feet - now Biddati Kothar is manipulating and abusing this statement to fool common Bohra mumineen to make Sajda to MB and TS like the one offered to Allah.

[murtaza2152]

Can u enlighten how posture of both Sajada are different ?

Many Nasihats are there where word Sajada Sujood is explicitly used by Syedi Saheb for Dai.

Is falling on feet = posture like Sajda to Allah?
Burhanuddin and TS make their subject to offer sajda to
them like the one offered to Allah - this is wrong. There are
two types of Sajda, one to auliya-Allah and other to Allah -
posture of both are different.
Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib says falling in Dai's feet - now
Biddati Kothar is manipulating and abusing this statement
to fool common Bohra mumineen to make Sajda to MB and
TS like the one offered to Allah.

[Al Zulfiqar]

if sadiq ali or anyone else explicitly states doing sajda to dai, then they are all in violation of the quran, they are mushriqs and non-muslims.

adam can take all his convoluted explanations and all his references to obscure scriptures and shove them where the sun don't shine in light of the simple statement above. no matter how many calisthenics or verbal acrobatics he performs, he is still a mushriq and deserving of condemnation. his arguments, drummed into his brain at secret sabaks, are all self-serving and blasphemous. inspite of adam having been on this forum since the last several years, not a single right-thinking individual has accepted his kufr filled reasoning. all he has to show us is his knowledge of arabic, knowledge which he is misusing to lead people astray. he is veritably an agent of iblis, desperately attempting to prove that his scriptures trump the quran!!

adam is like his idol taher saifuddin, the 51st dai, who was a genius in many ways, a great scholar of arabic, a great orator, linguist, poet, writer and administrator. but what was his character? he was morally corrupt to the core, with absolutely not even 0.01% scruples or conscience. he was ruthless, self-delusional, a megalomaniac, driven by unbounded ambition and lust for worldly power, name and fame, who even resorted to murder to achieve his nefarious goals. taher saifuddin will go down in bohra history as the one who brought about a complete u-turn in our morals, behaviour and administration, putting in place a ruthless and tyrannical establishment, designed to crush bohras into total submission and enrich himself and his family beyond the wildest dreams of avarice. his far-sightedness and devious cunning guaranteed the creation of fanatic perverts like adam, with their twisted minds and sinister ideology. after all a poisonous serpent with a forked tongue gives birth to more slimy serpents!

no matter what your education, wealth, talents or position, genius does not and will never vanquish the truth and will never be superior to morals and ethics.

[alwan]

Note: It is Fatemi belief that the parents (Yaqoob Nabi) were not amoungst those who gave Sajda to Yusuf, as they were already on the Throne beside Yusuf AS. It was the brothers and others who did Sajda.

012:004 When Joseph said to his father, 'Father, I saw eleven stars, and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating down before me.'

Adam,

If we were to interpretate eleven stars represented His eleven brothers, then its fair to interpretate the sun and the moon represented His father and His mother.

What do you think ?