what are the main concerns of progressive !!

[Bohra_Bhai]

Hii
After reading many post, i fail to understand actually i am a little confused about the concerns of progressives.
Is the administration that concerns you or the concept of Dai concerns you or the Dai at helm concerns you ?

[Abbas_chopra]

i really don understand what they wanted to show or what they wanted to give an example by just opposing everything that bohra does

[wise_guy]

Hii
After reading many post, i fail to understand actually i am a little confused about the concerns of progressives.
Is the administration that concerns you or the concept of Dai concerns you or the Dai at helm concerns you ?

The concerns of PDB is the total commercialization of the Dawat where everything is weighed with money. There is no accountability and hence corruption at each and every level. In the name of Maula (TUS), those in the power and influence are making millions and laughing all the way to the bank while religion is taking a back seat.

If you all see the 'About us' section of this website, you'll understand their contention. As this is an open forum, some non bohras under the disguise of PDBs have also joined this forum to throw dirt at us. Because of all the mud slinging, the main concept of PDB has been hijacked by bohra bashing on this forum. The non bohras are eating popcorn and sipping cola and having fun over here mocking us.

[Bohra_Bhai]

You it is safe to conclude that you are concerned about the administration.
Unfortunately you will not find a single religion which is not commercialized, your problem is also people in the office making a fortune and the religion is taking a backstep.
Here I have found mostly people cursing the Dai, rarely someone shares the original Bohra doctrine.
I myslef have a major problem with the administration and there non- accountability.
How many mosques have the progressive built for the bohras where a bohra who is annoyed by the jamaat can come and pray, secondly from where this website is getting funded from why isnt the accounts and source of funds made public.
A human is a social being, with the exception of few cities there are no place for bohras who are not orthodox and blindly follow the administration where you progressives have a jamaat and since you dont have any association a majority of the bohra who in principle agree with you dont come forward.

[Zali110]

Hii
After reading many post, i fail to understand actually i am a little confused about the concerns of progressives.
Is the administration that concerns you or the concept of Dai concerns you or the Dai at helm concerns you ?

The concerns of PDB is the total commercialization of the Dawat where everything is weighed with money. There is no accountability and hence corruption at each and every level. In the name of Maula (TUS), those in the power and influence are making millions and laughing all the way to the bank while religion is taking a back seat.

If you all see the 'About us' section of this website, you'll understand their contention. As this is an open forum, some non bohras under the disguise of PDBs have also joined this forum to throw dirt at us. Because of all the mud slinging, the main concept of PDB has been hijacked by bohra bashing on this forum. The non bohras are eating popcorn and sipping cola and having fun over here mocking us.

i agree thats why i am on crusade to fight back with those idiots , like azulfikar , anajmi , muslim first , jc gulam (abde) mohammed and more
eye for and eye the war has begun ... with mockers and abusers , stick to the initial objective and i wont say anything

[Maqbool]

Unfortunately you will not find a single religion which is not commercialized,

So what! I wish that may religion must not be commercialized and I should be proud of that. That is the reason I am here.

Your corrupt mind will always compare your religion with other degraded religion because you don't want to be in the religion founded by our prophet.

[Bohra_Bhai]

maqbool I actually didnot understood what you were trying to say.
To pay for space in mosque for pryares is commercialization.

[wise_guy]

One point is, Aamil is also a human, has family etc and needs money to survive. The opulent lifestyles of the family members of the Kothar has made the Aamils also wanting to have a tone down version of that lifestyle if not the same. An aamil's life is till he is at Amaalat and hence he tries to secure his future for his retirement etc as there is no social security net for them. This point can be argued that if the Aamil wanted a worldy life, than he should not have been in that place after all in that he should not have pursued Jaamiya education but the decision of his admission to Jaamiya was out of his own control and in the hands of his father. Previously, Aamils had to compulsory give a child to Jamiya (called as Khumus and the child's future surname used to be Khumusi/Khamoshi etc). I don't know if it is the norm still.

[wise_guy]

i agree thats why i am on crusade to fight back with those idiots , like azulfikar , anajmi , muslim first , jc gulam (abde) mohammed and more
eye for and eye the war has begun ... with mockers and abusers , stick to the initial objective and i wont say anything

@Zali100 - A crusade with outright abuses and curses is not what will make your crusade strong. Bring logical and strong points in your posts, one which resonates across the board. It is very easy to abuse and curse. Anyone can do it and hence it doesn't have any weight age in a debate. By abusing and cursing, you are making a fool of yourself, nothing more.

[Zali110]

i agree thats why i am on crusade to fight back with those idiots , like azulfikar , anajmi , muslim first , jc gulam (abde) mohammed and more
eye for and eye the war has begun ... with mockers and abusers , stick to the initial objective and i wont say anything

@Zali100 - A crusade with outright abuses and curses is not what will make your crusade strong. Bring logical and strong points in your posts, one which resonates across the board. It is very easy to abuse and curse. Anyone can do it and hence it doesn't have any weight age in a debate. By abusing and cursing, you are making a fool of yourself, nothing more.

i am not going to debate with sunnis , this forum is for bohras , abdes of pdb will debate with them only , no other outsider , hands down , so its ok for them to abuse , use names , and say wrong unproven accusations which they create but when i say its bad , thats what i can being hypocrite which i wont , so eye for an eye thats what quran says al ain bin ain ,

[Maqbool]

maqbool I actually didnot understood what you were trying to say.
To pay for space in mosque for pryares is commercialization.

The commercialization is every thing. From massalla space selling to najwa, title etc.(Every thing in the name of religion)

You said that every religion is commercialized. I say that may be every religion but not my religion should be commercialized. It is very simple to understand and is not tawil and therefor it is very simple to understand.

[aftabm]

How many mosques have the progressive built for the bohras where a bohra who is annoyed by the jamaat can come and pray, secondly from where this website is getting funded from why isnt the accounts and source of funds made public.

Progressive has 5 mosques in Udaipur, 1 community center in aurangabad. Reformist minded people arrange for namaaz specially on special ocassion like ramadan, eid etc, wherever there is sizeable community exists. All fundings/arrangement are by people.

[Al Zulfiqar]

1. Here I have found mostly people cursing the Dai, rarely someone shares the original Bohra doctrine.

2. How many mosques have the progressive built for the bohras where a bohra who is annoyed by the jamaat can come and pray, secondly from where this website is getting funded from why isnt the accounts and source of funds made public.

3. A human is a social being, with the exception of few cities there are no place for bohras who are not orthodox and blindly follow the administration where you progressives have a jamaat and since you dont have any association a majority of the bohra who in principle agree with you dont come forward.

bohra bhai,

let me attempt to answer your questions since you seem to be labouring under some common misconceptions.

1. this site has shared the original bohra doctrine under the archives section. it is also at the top of the bohras and reform forum as a sticky. please go in there and enlighten yourself. as for people venting their ire against the dai, what else do you expect from disgruntled, oppressed and exploited bohras? should they hide their hands in the sand and pretend that no blame attaches to the dai? he is the head of the community and every action of his family and his amils and jamaat committees is carried out in his name. now dont say that how can he know everything that goes on? that is a well-worn standard excuse which holds no water. in that case he should not claim that he is ghaib na maalik, mojiza na saheb, haqiqi kaaba, ilah ul ardh etc etc. every organisation, whether public, private or religious, its the head who is accountable. this is the accepted practice. you cant have it both ways. tails i win and heads you lose! criticising the dai and his family does not amount to cursing the dai. some long-suffering bohras go overboard in their anger, but can you blame them? after all where else can they vent their repressed feelings?

2. a) the progressives are not like the monolothic kothar with unlimited funds or an unending source of loot. the progressives are wherever there is a rebel like you and me. if you have like-minded people where you live, form a group and acquire your own small hall/masjid etc to pray, meet and socialise. there is no monstrous progressive office from where you can solicit funds. a few muslims in the canadian yukon (close to the north pole) got together and put up a mobile portacabin to serve as a masjid. this is reputed to be the northernmost masjid on this planet. self-help is the best help. b) it is quite disingenous for you to ask the source of funding for this website and demand accounts. this site is run with funding from a few benevolent reformist families. are they demanding money from you or anyone? they have kept this site free and unfettered. if you feel enamoured of their services you are free to make a donation. as for the progressive masjids and jamaatkhanas, they do publish their accounts regularly and are open to public scrutiny at anytime, unlike the corrupt kothar who hide behind the infallibility of syedna.

3. already covered in point one. find similar progressive minded bohras, form an association and pray together. who is stopping you? to hell with the kothar and its money grabbing amils and dacoits. there is a saying, wherever there is a pious muslim, there is islam. agreed that there are no reformist jamaats in every town where bohras live, but who is responsible for this? the bohras themselves! if they quietly and meekly submit to the tyranny of the haramkhor establishment just because they find comfort in the company of their peers, then who is to blame? definitely not the reformists. its futile and foolish to expect them to come charging in like a gallant knight on a silver steed to bail out your sorry behind, like a damsel in distress!

[Bohra_Bhai]

Al Zulfiqar Bhai

Nice answer but you what any organisation, be it a commercial, social or religious needs a leader and right now unfortunately you progressive dont have a leader who can be looked upon and who can guide.
I also think you did not actually understood my question or may be i constructed it in a wrong way, now tell me if bohra who is annoyed by the jamaat where can he go beside this website is there any local office or contact point you have where there is a sizeable bohra community beside udaipur aurangabad.
This website or if I may call it a movement is by and large an underground movement where most of members are part of mainstream bohra community who are to an extent not satisfied with functioning of the jamaat but dont have the courage to go against the community.
You provide bohra an alternative community in their city and you will find more coming out in the open and supporting your cause.
Anger if not channelised in the right direction is a waste.
You yourself said you all are rebels here and no where in the world rebellion is welcomed.

[Bohra spring]

Bohra Bhai ...I think the more of you stand up and ask for an alternative community the more progress we make.
The more abdes, you will notice I am avoiding the use of orthodox title, who voluntarily seek dissociation with mainstream the more likely natural social tendency to congregate.


To your other point why is there a tendency to expect Udaipur to pioneer the establishment of satellite centres? I also note that Humsafar had offered assistance in the past if someone has specific plans to start alternative centres. If you have plans may be you should make contact, once you are successful we will have repeatable manuscript.

It is too early but once you have sufficient numbers it will be time to discuss what ideological establishment you wish to cultivate for the new jamaat. There has to be consensus on what the new group desires and aspires.

As we have debated and disagreed on many matters over the years there are many reformists who are sympathetic to secular and Muslim ummah ideals and practises , depending on their numbers their needs need to be factored and considered.

[badrijanab]

As we have debated and disagreed on many matters over the years there are many reformists who are sympathetic to secular and Muslim ummah ideals and practises , depending on their numbers their needs need to be factored and considered.

Spring Ji,

What do you mean by above? Please elaborate. Do you want to convert Bohra (Reformist) mumineen into fulltime or partial Sunni/Ithna Asheri?

[Bohra spring]

As we have debated and disagreed on many matters over the years there are many reformists who are sympathetic to secular and Muslim ummah ideals and practises , depending on their numbers their needs need to be factored and considered.

Spring Ji,

What do you mean by above? Please elaborate. Do you want to convert Bohra (Reformist) mumineen into fulltime or partial Sunni/Ithna Asheri?

I don't intend to convert to one or either or propagate conversion of others. But if we focus on areas that we agree on between the sects and deemphasise on the things we disagree on one will notice it is not that difficult to be tolerant without fear of being overrun or becoming a minority.

So if start with Belief in Allah, the prophet, spirituality and prayers, fasting, helping the needy, hajj, brotherhood , and then progress towards complex issues on economic development , human rights , accountability of administrators the list can get longer. These and many many other issues we all agree on yet we drown these uniting issues in the things that differentiate us.

The things we want to keep personal and unique as a choice can coexist as individual decision , so the Ismailism, Ithnasheri or Sunnat traditions can be continued with protection from the new constitution .

[Al Zulfiqar]

bohra bhai,

inspite of my detailed reply, you still have not understood. let me attempt again:

1. there are lakhs of bohras who are disgruntled. what do they expect? that someone will come to their aide? that there is an existing office, some secret or overt contact person from the reformist movement stationed in every town, village and city, who will meet with said disgruntled bohra, note down his/her complaint and then something magical will happen? court cases will be initiated, police action will be taken, a mob will descend on the local jamaat amil and beat him up or gherao him?
2. the very concept of needing some 'leader' as a figurehead is self-defeating. do you want another dictatorship, another tyranny like ours? do the 1.7 billion muslims around the world have a single, central leadership? yet their numbers are growing, esp. in the west, whereas our (registered) bohra numbers are shrinking!
3. since you, and i presume, many other bohras where you live have so much anger and resentment, how have YOU chanelised your anger? what have YOU done about it? have YOU formed a group to take your complaints to the amil? have YOU decided to disassociate yourself from the abde jamaat and conduct prayers on your own and be independent? see the crux of the problem is that people like you have got so used to be under the stifling yoke of a 'leader', that now the thought of being on your own scares you and others. its like a herd of sheep who are suddenly left on their own without the barking guard dogs and they will get so confused that they will just stand in one place and get eaten alive by predators!
4. the reformist jamaats in udaipur, malegaon, canada, london, etc were all formed by groups of individuals like you, ordinary bohras who decided to take action, who were so fed-up with the abde bullshit that they separated and formed their own jamaat. these are all out in the open. the others come here to find an outlet for their disgust. so what's wrong with calling it an underground movement? is it some dirty label? did you know that the nazi's were defeated as much by allied army action as the determined underground resistance groups which was hurting them covertly, striking them at their roots in guerilla fashion?
5. most freedom struggles are rebellions. mahatma gandhi was a rebel, jinnah was a rebel, mandela was a rebel, martin luther was a rebel, the americans rebelled against british rule. so why do you refer to 'rebels' in such a contemptuous, dismissive manner? you too are a rebel because you come here and vent. the only difference is you do not have the courage to take action and expect some allegorical/mythical 'leader' who will rally forces to help you and your brethren.

stop looking for help from outside. the help you want is 'inside' you. do you have the courage?

[Bohra_Bhai]

Al Zulfiqar bhai

first of all I totally agree with you that I lack courage and there is no denying.
Mahatma Gandhi beside being a rebel was also a leader, and for any movement a leader is required who would inspire and influence people, who can be looked upon, who can guide. For you a leader is someone who is imposing things forcefully, who is a dictator, a tyrant, an oppressor,autocrat etc etc.
If someone shows little courage he becomes persona non grata, not only he/she is rejected but his/her entire family is rejected by the community and since a human is a social animal this is where an alternate medium should be there where he can socialize, from he/she gets emotional support otherwise how can someone live in isolation for long and eventually you find that such either go back to the mainstream or joins another sect and cease to be a bohra.
This is what has happened those who have rebelled have ultimately joined other sects since they found the support their.
how to find like minded people, you will find most of the members if not all havent revealed there identity, I can very well stay back at home and shun the jamaat but what difference it is going to make, today no effort is made get new people in the faith by the jamaat but all efforts are made to tighten the grip on the existing lot and they dont mind in the process if a few are lost.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bohra bhai,

Don't you agree that it is better NOT to have a leader rather then have one who is totally corrupt and spiritually bankrupt as one could never find solace in such a leader and one will go astray. "Chirag se chirag jalao aur phir dekho kitni roshni phail jaati hai"

[Gulf]

i really don understand what they wanted to show or what they wanted to give an example by just opposing everything that bohra does

These progressives generally are oldies (if not by age then surly by minds) they are just arm chair generals... we can say a group retard people those who sits whole the day on a chair in front of computer screen, start nast discussion within and attempts to misleads people who comes across, talks goody goody and instead of doing anything in person they complains about Dawat, Moula, kothar, organization, Jamats, aamils or any of our religious activities.... cowardly through this forum and other social networking sites i.e facebook, etc.. for their leisure. But fortunetely they failed, fails and will fail in future.

[wise_guy]

i really don understand what they wanted to show or what they wanted to give an example by just opposing everything that bohra does

These progressives generally are oldies (if not by age then surly by minds) they are just arm chair generals... we can say a group retard people those who sits whole the day on a chair in front of computer screen, start nast discussion within and attempts to misleads people who comes across, talks goody goody and instead of doing anything in person they complains about Dawat, Moula, kothar, organization, Jamats, aamils or any of our religious activities.... cowardly through this forum and other social networking sites i.e facebook, etc.. for their leisure. But fortunetely they failed, fails and will fail in future.

Mr. Gulf has taken lessons from the Shaikhs (Royals) of the Gulf region who also can't take criticism from others irrespective of the natute of the criticism

[Al Zulfiqar]

Al Zulfiqar bhai


Mahatma Gandhi beside being a rebel was also a leader, and for any movement a leader is required who would inspire and influence people, who can be looked upon, who can guide. .....

and since a human is a social animal this is where an alternate medium should be there where he can socialize,

I can very well stay back at home and shun the jamaat but what difference it is going to make,

bohra bhai,

let me understand you.

1. mahatma gandhi was just ONE OF THE LEADERS. there were dozens besides him leading the independence movement, but it was his moral stature, integrity and statesmanship that thrust him into the 'chief' position. in the same way, the progressive movement has many leaders now and has had many in the past. asgharali engineer became the latest face of the movement because of his knowledge, oratory, personality and balanced approach. he was not their dai nor will ever the progressives have a dai. the question is, are you the one that leads, or are you simply content to follow like a sheep?
2. it is precisely this 'social animal' excuse that the kothar is cunningly exploiting to exercise their tyranny over the vast majority of timid bohras who do not have the guts to leave nor take action against their cruel masters. again the question is: how long will you keep on suffering and being crushed under their iron heels, when is your conscience finally going to rebel? do you have the ability and social graces to form friendships with others (non-bohras) outside your bohra circle?
3. on the one hand you bleat about being a 'social animal', and then in the next breath you talk about 'what difference is my shunning the jamaat going to make'? let us distill that down to one more question: what is more important to you? your dignity, moral values, self-worth and independence or the future of the damned and stupid jamaat?

lets face it. you still desperately insist, nay demand, that the progressives should come running to your aide and save your sorry backside. get this into your head one last time: YOU ARE THE PROGRESSIVE AND YOU HAVE TO HELP YOURSELF.

[Bohra_Bhai]

Al Zulfiqar Bhai

Now your assumptions about the followers is that of a fool, blindfolded, dumb, undignified let me tell you not all followers are like that.
You see majority of the people here because the think logically and rationally and know what is good and what is bad for them.
Without a leader this movement is directionless, when I say there is a requirement for a leader it is to lead those who are not aware of the true bohra doctrine, make aware of the true bohra practices. I find here people doing anything as per there wish not necessary in compliance with the bohra doctrine.
There is no one here to guide, no one whom they can consult, No doubt it is Allah and no one else who guides but it is my belief that he guides through a medium, again i dont mean someone having a hotline.
Now I dont want to get into the hierarchical structure of independence movement but you yourself said that Mahatma Gandhi was the chief so one can conclude that he was the ultimate leader of the movement among other leaders.
As of now without leadership this movement is fragmented and directionless.

[SBM]

Bohra Bhai
What a sorry excuse of having a leader
Did you know that ARAB SPRING when started had no leader and the democracy even though not perfect did return to Egypt,Libya and other Arab countries. Would you consider IDI AMIN or HITLER as your leader or can do without a leader and follow a SHURA COUNCIL

[Bohra_Bhai]

SBM
Do i need to tell me what is happening to the Arab Spring in Egypt where are they heading ? Take Syria for example rebels are killing rebels of a different faction.
Again your idea of leader is of a IDI Amin or a Hitler and I cant help you if you think all leaders are going to be like that, i think someone coming from the pdb front wont be a autocrat, a dictator but he would be someone who would be able to unite everyone.

[Al Zulfiqar]

bohra bhai,

you keep changing your questions and concerns. originally it was based on your individual practical needs, where do i go, whom to consult, where to complain etc. now you have broadened your plaint into an attack on the entire progressive movement. you also make baseless accusations such as the movement is directionless and fragmented. you are completely wrong in that you expect some mysterious monolithic institution guiding all the disgruntled bohras to form another community or an army to unite them under one banner. as with the arab spring, every reformist started out with one common goal, to rebel against the autocratic and tyrannical establishment. soon more joined in and a group was formed. they broke away and established a pdb jamaat. they achieved their purpose. these jamaats, no matter how far flung they are, communicate with each other and share our rich culture, history and practices. that is precisely the model you should follow.

i don't understand what is your real agenda. are you somehow wanting a pdb movement which would create a parallel daawat? be equal to them in their approach, with one single leader, collecting taxes, setting up the same dreaded hierarchy, challenging the dai led kothar on temporal and spiritual matters?

inspite of your attempts to defend the abdes (and in extension, yourself) for sticking together because the reformists cannot provide a clear leadership. i still say that all those who remain within the abde fold with all sorts of myriad excuses are sheep; meek, blind-folded and gutless sheep, who will never leave, but will keep paying inspite of every day one sheep being eaten alive by the blood-thirsty wolves in full view of the all the other stupid sheep, striking terror into their whimpering hearts.

you seem to be quite literate and computer savvy and yet you complain of not being to educate yourself on the true bohra doctrine. if you cannot find it within you to make the effort to read the all material on this site, to learn from books available through this site and you observe that there are many like you thirsting for knowledge and guidance and yet wont lift a finger to get it, then i am afraid you are destined to remain an abde and suffer all throughout your life.

i have said enough and wont respond again, since it is not in you to help yourself. all the best to you my friend.

[Humsafar]

You see majority of the people here because the think logically and rationally and know what is good and what is bad for them.

So those who can logically and rationally think for themselves do not need a leader.

Without a leader this movement is directionless

How much do you know about this movement to draw this conclusion?

when I say there is a requirement for a leader it is to lead those who are not aware of the true bohra doctrine, make aware of the true bohra practices.

The true Bohra doctrine, as AZ ponited out, can be learned and practiced if you're willing to devote time and effort towards that. You need a leader only if you do not want to study the doctrine for and by yourself. How would you know whether a "leader" is teaching you the right doctrine? We know the current dai is the "leader" of the Bohras and we very well know where he is leading them - to kufr.

I find here people doing anything as per there wish not necessary in compliance with the bohra doctrine.

Please give examples of what people are doing as they please, and who exactly are you referring to?

There is no one here to guide, no one whom they can consult, No doubt it is Allah and no one else who guides but it is my belief that he guides through a medium, again i dont mean someone having a hotline.

What do your mean by "here"? You mean this forum? This forum is not designed to give you any kind of guidance, it's for all of us to come and discuss issues like we're doing right now. For guidance on religious matters there are several learned people among reformists who impart their knowledge and give advice when asked, and often when not asked (we have our own share of stuck-up orthodox mullahs, you know!).

As of now without leadership this movement is fragmented and directionless.

You're mixing religious guidance with the guidance of the movement. They are two separate things. The movement is primarily guided by the core principles and demands that form the agenda. The leadership comes from jamat committees in local matters and overall leadership comes from the reformist umbrella organisation - The Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community.

[Maqbool]

Dear Bohra bhai,

I am failed to understand why you are insisting for a leader. Any body can be a leader. Why you are not taking an initiative and becomes a leader?

If you are really concerned about our community you can do lot more then insisting for a leader. Just to begin with start a small group where you leave and take up problems and atrocities by jamat and amil. Automatically one leader will emerge among the group, and who knows tomorrow he may be a martin Luther. So please start to day.

[Gulf]

Mr. Gulf has taken lessons from the Shaikhs (Royals) of the Gulf region who also can't take criticism from others irrespective of the natute of the criticism

Religion is religion and not politics that takes &/or tolerate criticism, either you follow or leave it. If it is harmful for human kind then there is a court of law.