What has reform movement achieved?

[Humsafar]

According to you is the Dawoodi Bohra community divided in two groups (or communities)

Baskin, I never said the community is divided into two groups. It is true that reformists have separate jamats and that happened because they were ex-communicated and had no choice but to build their lives and communities in accordance with the ideals they were fighting for. But this "separateness" is only temporary. The ultimate aim is to bring reforms to the whole community, and then we can all be truly one.

[Baskin]

@Humsafar

There are a very few people like you in your movement.
The problem with your movement is that majority of you don't want to bring reform but want to eliminate the community.

We (Dawoodi Bohra) do not consider you (Progressives) as Dawoodi Bohras. You (Progressives) belong to a different community to us. That is why your interference in our community is not at all acceptable to anyone of us.

You cannot and will never bring reform being outside.

This is my last post.

Thanks.

[Humsafar]

The problem with your movement is that majority of you don't want to bring reform but want to eliminate the community.

Baskin, this is completely false. On what basis do you say we want to eliminate the community. And, by the way, what do you mean by "eliminate the community"?

We (Dawoodi Bohra) do not consider you (Progressives) as Dawoodi Bohras.

Again, on what basis do you say that? We are all Dawoodi Bohras by virtue of birth and faith. In fact, if your really care to look the majority of the community is progressive-minded and there are more "progressives" inside than outside. The reasons they do not come out openly are many and well known and well documented.

One thing is sure, reforms will come and will come from the inside. And when it comes we will be there to help.

Sorry to know that you won't be posting anymore. But you can always change your mind.

[East Africawalla]

All of us are the same stock, thats why I think some of us have to raise our hands and admit that some of the reformist movements were generated because of some of our community leaders being arrogant in the 1970's in UK after the Ugandan's exodus . We were silly enough to allow some of this guys not to our mosque thus creating this alternative community.We have messed up a couple of generations of people .

I am matured enough to admit our mistakes.

There was a time when some of the local community leaders had a lot of power which went to their heads.

Sometimes personal vendettas were fought on religious reasons. Sad really

To the reformist lets be clear this is your community and we should work and live together to improve things.

Why do you want to work from outside , you will make better impact from inside

Have a nice weekend

[ghulam muhammed]

I agree that to bring reforms, we have to work from inside but due to the blatant baraat system, will the reformists be allowed to take part with the mainstream bohras ? The answer for all practical purposes is a simple no because the larger part of the community is injected with a heavy dose of poison with regard to reformists and they are made to believe that no one has got any right to question the working of the daawat never mind the blatant corruption, extortion and misuse of the religion itself. They are made to believe that it is the greatest sin not only to question the working of the dawaat but to even think about it.

Hence the only alternative is to challenge the Kothar by inviting them for an open debate and to make sure that the same, like mola's vayez is relayed live throughout the world in all bohra masjids. Emminent people like Mr.Asghar Ali Engineer and Mr.Saifuddinbhai Insaf should take part in the debate.

[East Africawalla]

Gulammohammed,

Please come back to the 'real' world, thats not going to happen , you have to work from inside otherwise its a lost cause from outside

[Humsafar]

Ghulam Mohammed,
You cannot mention Kothar and "open debate" in the same sentence. It is contradiction in terms. It is never going to happen. Tyrannical institutions only want to crush, for them there is not other solution. Only the "people power" can bring them to their knees. When? That is the question.

[ghulam muhammed]

Br.Humsafar,

Agreed that kothar is averse to an open debate with the reformists but if prominent reformists like Mr.Engineer and Mr.Insaf are prepared for it then atleast let the common bohras worldwide know about it. I have from my personal experience with the gullible bohras known that the picture that kothar projects about the reformists is that they are a scared lot with negligible knowledge on Islam and Fatimid bohra sect and that they never stand a chance against our ruhani bawa syedna saab on religous and spiritual issues. So atleast let the average bohra know that we want to raise some fundamental issues and want to invite kothar for an open debate. Even then if they refuse then make their refusal publicly known. This might tickle the nerves of some gullible bohras. I think Mr.Saifudinbhai Insaf can throw some more light on this.

[East Africawalla]

Why would the kothar agree to a debate with a few Renegades especially with the ones whose names have been put in the mud in the last decades , to the 'n'ormal' bohras this guys are dushmanos , even taking their name is bad - thats the mind set , so forget it mate- no chance

[Humsafar]

Ghulam Mohammed,
Asghar Ali and Insaf bhai are always ready for a debate and have challenged Kothar to it. But the Kothar will never agree to it - it's like committing suicide. I'll have to agree with East Africawala, Asghar Ali and Insaf are considered and projected as renegades and dushman. A debate with them is never going to happen.

[ozmujaheed]

If my suggestion in the Lets Walk the Talk thread was considered I was hoping we would see immediate reaction and probable change ..and my style of war implies strong firm material assertive action. The war has many battles and some battles we will loose which should be acceptable as long as we are causing incremental damage to the pillars of oppression. Key pillar of oppression is Kothars and so called credibility internally and externally.

As a result these protests and the aims of this forum will get noticed and we may turn hearts and loyalty away.

My issue with only putting info on the website and throwing typed up barbs at each other is great fun ! So what a couple of hundred website viewers know about Shikar, Seifee Mahal, translation of Misaq and then what ? What about the hundreds of thousand Bohras who are in euphoria and celebrating the immoral acts.

Before anyone thinks why I bother well I would not if Mainstream Bohras was a tolerant faith which went on with its business without interfering in personal lives and stop criticizing other faiths. As long as I did not interfere with their dealings they stay away from me and stop harassing my family who may have chosen to be orthodox but are now victims because of my decisions and position on faith.


If this Progressive movement and my aims are so divergent then I hope there are more of my type and I hope to find them soon and will leave your forum to continue it path.

I will stop having too many expectations of this Progressive Movement, which is then just an age old dispute around power, control of community affairs and objection to pay communal taxes, and my fear is you will end up replacing one stooge by another.

At present I have no comfort or admiration of current Progressive leaders other than appreciate their sacrifices and actions to date as there was a common objective. However should ever we have to choose leadership then I believe There will be concern if you guys want to take over !

And if that ever happens then I do not rule out that I or others like myself may have to fight Progressives and Kotharis concurrently.

[Humsafar]

However should ever we have to choose leadership then I believe There will be concern if you guys want to take over..

OZ, Nobody wants to takeover. This is not a power struggle, progressives do not want to replace the current regime with their own regime. I understand and appreciate you passion but don't allow it to get in the way of clear thinking. The reformist movement has a very clear agenda - of social reforms - and you may not agree with it, which is fine but don't distort it and make it out to be something which it is not.

[S. Insaf]

The reformists are the Dawoodi Bohras born and brought up in the community but thrown out by the repressive establishment when they tried to raise their voice against the wrong-doings and high-handedness of Amils or other functionaries.
Before the World Dawoodi Bohra Conference including the last conference held in Feb 08 at Udaipur the reformists have always appealed to Sayedna Saheb for reconciliation and he or his administration has not bothered even to acknowledge. After almost three decades When Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb realized his mistake that he committed with the reformists of Udaipur he personally went to Udaipur and asked the reformist to come back. The call started with usual words "Let us forgive and forget the past happenings". Remember any tyrant would want the victims should forget his atrocities.
The Bohra Youth women made just one demand "Sayedna Saheb should publicly apologies for barbarous attack on the innocent women in Galiakot in his presence on first March 1973".
Where as the reformist Dawoodi Bohra Jamat of Udaipur demanded a written copy of the Misaq which they were proposing.
Sayedna and his men remained silent on these two demands and suggested a negotiation.
The Dawoodi Bohra Jamat in writing clearly asked to lift up "Baraat" against all reformist world over and announce it writing as well as publicly. Then sit for negotiation with the following conditions: 1) Negotiation should be between five authorized (in writing) members from the Central Board of the Dawoodi Bohra Community and five members duly authorized members from Sayedna Saheb. 2. All the discussion should be recorded in writing as well as by video shooting. 3. A joint statement of the final decisions arrived at must be made and signed by the Chairman of the Central Board and by Sayedna Saheb. Sayedna Saheb cut short his visit and left Udaipur. I was in Udaipur in those days and I can only say that the whole problem in the community has started from the day Sayedna Taher Saifuddin started building his financial empire and now with the huge concentration of wealth it is impossible to have any negotiation. The Sayedna's establishment wants to keep you around as long as you pay them as per their demand.
The only way is to stop paying them any more money and defy them in their money making schemes. Carry on your social and religious rites as per Islam independently. Remember their demand for money has no legal or religious sanction.

[Zeal]

Improvisator,

and it will be hard for you all to understand because your brains are totally sunk in the materialistic world.

ziyafat at a rich bohris house is charged at 25-50 lakhs of Rupees - is it a reformist or maula taking this money?

now give your spiritual brain a little rest!

[Al Zulfiqar]

zeal,

give it a rest. this topic is 2 years old. admin has just converted it into a sticky in order to highlight reform issues. improvisator has gone on to the world beyond to improvise..

[Ozdundee]

Topic dedicated to claim and blow our own trumpet...the reform and progressive successes of 2013.

Dear admin please advise the number of new membership to this site since jan 2013

Does anyone know what is the size of PDB jamaat , how many new members joined in 2013

I will also give the reform successes in oZ shortly

Others from Other region please list any successes so we can do better next year inshallah

Big or small.

[humanbeing]

The real success of Progressives or Reformist is to ignite a sense of reasoning in minds of the readers !

This forum is a big achievement. As it crosses borders to reach out to bohras from all corners.

[true_bohra]

ITNA SANNATA KYUN HAI BHAI???

I hope there is no achievement

[Bohra spring]

Petition against hunting by BS, no more hunting photos ..Mansoos recently went hunting it was kept quiet

Embarrassment of publishing zaifats now everything is underground by G M

Investigations in Saudi Arabia.

Investigations in Malaysia , a frequent reformist on this site who has asked not to be named has details but will refuse to disclose which 3 countries are also investigating.

FGM outcry globally and community defamation which started in India, blew up in Australia , was picked by media worldwide .

These above are some serious stuff which will linger for a very long time. There must be small achievements too.

I have more but let others say what else.

[bohra_manus]

Through Reformist organization and this forum many Abde brothers and sisters are finding out the about the darker side of the holy men in white robes. It will one day bring revolution in the community. This is no small achievement.

Wo subah kabhi to aayegi, wo subah kabhi to aayegi
In kaali sadiyon ke sar se, jab raat ka aanchal dhalkega
Jab dukh ke baadal pighalenge, jab sukh ka sagar chalkega
Wo subah kabhi to aayegi, wo subah kabhi to aayegi

[ghulam muhammed]

ITNA SANNATA KYUN HAI BHAI???

AANDHI AANE SE PEHLE HAMESHA SANNATA CHHAA JAATA HAI, YEH KUDRAT KA KANOON HAI !!!

[incredible]

ITNA SANNATA KYUN HAI BHAI???

AANDHI AANE SE PEHLE HAMESHA SANNATA CHHAA JAATA HAI, YEH KUDRAT KA KANOON HAI !!!

I honestly dont think any AANDHI is coming which will wipe out all kothari parasites.

kothar infact all so called "godly people" have secured them self in followers brain with greed and fear, and untill humanity exists they will try to exploit these two things, and keep exploiting people.

but yes awareness will do bring more educated human beings which will be able to take their owwn decisions and finally stop bowing to unholy people, but that will be rare occasion and only few bunch of lucky people will ever taste freedom and truth.

most will remain slaves and continue what they are doing from years and years.

[Maqbool]

This web site exists since last so many years, in spite by the kotharies to sabotage and restrain bohras to visit the site, is a big achievements. Lots of bohras are visiting this site and taking part in discussion. Many discussions are copied and circulated by watsup is not a small achievement. This create awareness among bohras and many have understood that the religion run by kothar is not a religion but a business and which benefits to them only.

The most and important achievement tested by the Udaipuries, That is the freedom from the kotharies, who poke in all the personal and community affairs.

[think]

The biggest accomplishment of this website is freedom of speech. A place to voice their opinion when they know that things are not the way they should be. They feel there is something wrong with the present regime and would like to know if there are others that share the same.

[Humsafar]

The biggest achievement of reformists is their freedom. Freedom from exploitation by the mafia clergy, freedom form fear of these thieves in white robes, freedom from obsessing about raza for every little thing we do in our life, freedom from pressure to pay wajebat and haggle with local aamil, freedom to enjoy and perform religious functions without having to worry about safai chitthi and salams, freedom to observe Ramazan in the right spirit of piety, charity, remembrance of Allah, instead of worrying about being fleeced, freedom to observe Muhrram in the right spirit of gham-e-hussain and learning to stand up to truth as his sacrifice teaches us instead of celebrating the 10-day picnic of fun and festivity as business are forced to close and children kept out of school, freedom to choose names, careers and businesses without interference from the mafia clergy, freedom of women to work or be homemaker as they like, freedom from the retrograde and demeaning advice from the Muffadal Mansoos who wants to take the community back to the middle ages, freedom from constant brainwashing at majlises, madrassas and darees where the glory of the dai overshadows that of the Prophet and Ahle Bayt, freedom form participating in immoral tamashas of celebrating lavish birthday of the Dai, freedom to think freely and speak our mind, freedom to cook and eat what we like instead of being forced-fed through tiffin scheme, freedom to elect our own jamat committees and manage our affairs, freedom to question our jamat and ask for accounts, freedom to own our community properties, freedom from willful slavery, freedom of conscience, freedom form worshiping a human, freedom from folding hand and humiliating oneself in front of zadas barely out of puberty, freedom of self-respect and personal dignity, freedom to live as truly free human being.

One could go on, but the freedoms we enjoy maybe hard for abdes to even imagine. Reformist occupy a moral and mental space which is beyond the conception of an unfortunate people for whom the word freedom is erased from their lives.

Ironically, even as reformists enjoyed their freedoms - which normal human beings enjoy everywhere - the abdes lost more of theirs. They sunk deeper into slavery. The control of mafia clergy became more tight and draconian, abdes were forced to attend Muhrram majlises, their e-jamat cards were scanned to monitor their movement and obedience. In the year 2013, Hijri 1435, the year of our Lord when the Dai celebrated his 102nd birthday, the Bohra sheep were fully branded, tagged and accounted for. This is the achievement of abde Bohras. While we Dawoodi Bohras not only enjoyed our freedoms but also exercised them by electing a new jamat committee in Udaipur and other reformist centres. This website and forum gained new members and supporters (even as it lost a couple due personal pessimism and a lack of faith in the future). Extravagance of ziyafat and other ills were exposed though this forum forcing kothari sites to build security firewalls, the mansoos and the air hostess incident was brought to light here and so was horrendous and bestial act of digging up Adamji Peerboy wife's grave, a campaign to help the poor bohras of Ahemdabad was organised here and united both sides in compassion and generosity...

And the biggest achievement of reformists is that they do not exploit, mislead and fool people in the name of religion. In response what have abdes to report? More slavery, more exploitation and more control? And for the mafia clergy more ayyashi and more haram-khori and more insult to our faith and tradition?

[alam]

There are 2 polar ends of the spectrum of Mumineens in relation to the reformist movement:

At one extreme are people who have totally segregated themselves from Dawat-e- Hadiyah dominated bohra community and built and are enjoying the freedoms as described by humsafer due to various jamaats or alternative community centers that have been developed.

At the other end are the completely brainwashed who have convinced themselves and everyone around them, that "my Blind Faith" is the Only rightful Path to jannat, that obtaining "Maula ni Khushi" is the standard, the gauge, with which to measure their deeds or misdeeds, and the quality of "sawaab" etc

There are various shades of gray in between among how mumineens feel. . People in the community are all along the continuum, and the same people sway from different points along this continuum under different circumstances. (of course a handful stay very rigid throughout.

But, Most people, in fact an overwhelming majority are unhappy with the way things are, even among the Jamaat ayaans, Jamaat committee members, and the ones who are referred to as "abdes" in a derogatory manner. Those whom people on this forum refer to as "abdes" are the same people whose rights are trampled upon, even more so, and their wounds are way too deep for them to even begin to acknowledge.

It is indeed a sad state when the victims and perpetrators are interchangeable, such is the nature of the Disease or rather Syndrome called "Power, Emotional Blackmail, Hijacking of faith" . It is the cycle of violence, Violence to the soul and the spirit and violence toward human dignity and violence toward our own self respect.

So the task is really to engage in healthy debates as often happens in this forum, while SUBTRACTING the Demonization of opponents.

That is why it's probably a good idea to refrain from name-calling, hurling abuses, gaalis, character assassination.

At the end of the day, it is the authenticity of your dialogue that will sustain the common good.

If we truly want to make a difference and get people to resonate with not just your point of view, but truly RESONATE With THEIR own experiences of humiliation of demeaning practices engaged int he NAME OF RELIGION then the authentic dialogue will prevail.
Otherwise, nasty language and name calling becomes a futile eneavour, and just adds more fuel to their fire of hatred toward anything that is perceived as a threat.

The cycle of Violence toward the Human Soul, this hijacking of my faith, MUST Stop now. And it will start with 1 Mumin at a time.

[seeker110]

Yahaan khayal aur zabaan ki azadi hai.

[humanbeing]

@Alam : Excellent Expression of Thought !

[incredible]

I found my wife from this forum, I learnt a lot from people like anajmi, who keeps broad minded view about islaam, and now I am changed man in my thinking over petty issues.

so yes forum did worked well for me and I am all happy for it.

[Bohra spring]

Why are there no statistics from India regarding what reformists have achieved in this year?

I think we need to deliver light soft influence .but not the only way..sitting on the fence and attracting them through window shopping is not fast enough to cause significant dent in the kothars operations ...we have been doing that for many year. And as TB says we have not much to show as results, and I agree. I know this is self criticism but if we don't kothar surely would regard us with the same view.. We don't last long and we fizzle out soon.

I am waiting for someone from PDB to confirm if they have noticed mass exodus ? If not then what do we have to show that our protests are delivering people who seek freedom and better life outside their slavery.

I have a different view from Alam..the reform movement needs to take a more assertive mode...create a strong alternative society that pulls liberal minded bohra across. And once we have a critical mass we live separately , have a self sustaining large society . We can create our own community.

Now if the above is too divisive idea and is unacceptable then we need to seed enough ideas within the community to create ruptures and a self driven over throwing of the regime. This way we cause a renaissance and keep the community one. Both are not easy ..even they may sound sexy, I am not delusional...but don't like the alternative of just waiting and hoping the problem will go away with time and the administrators will self reform.

Even in earlier Islamic conquers, the Prophet had to take the fight to the unbelievers ...Makkah did not just accept Islam...they surrendered when they saw the warriors at the city limits. History is full of precedence , even India has to take action.

If the reformist insist on a soft approach then we will continue the blogging for a very long time.

So the point is what will we do differently in 2014 to cause kothar to be unstable ...how will we raise the tempo of our protests, reforms etc.

If abdes want to remain with Kothar at their free will so be it it is their choice, I am not suggesting we impose our beliefs and values on them.

Also We just seem to lack leadership to carry the fight and if someone does take the lead very few follow and support the initiative. We seem to get distracted and are happy to just complain and rely on luck if someone on their own takes the fight .

I have examples..the fGM issue fizzled out in India ..very few supported the women who petitioned ? Why a we so timid

The case in udaipur where the were riots or abuses during Ramadan ..no follow up with the police cases..if there were no one reported them.

So yes we have achieved significant milestones , with fewer capacity and congrats to the initiators but we as broader reformists have been unable to leverage the small gains for greater change .