Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Shaykh Saduq mentioned that there are traditions from Imami and also from non-Imami sources reporting the number of the Imams as twelve.

Details

Among the traditions of Abdullah bin Masud that is narrated to us from Ahmad bin al-Hasan al-Qattan known as Abi Ali bin Abde Rabb ar-Razi and he is a noted tradition scholar he says:

Narrated to me Abu Yazid Muhammad bin Yahya bin Khalaf bin Yazid al-Maruzi in the city of Rayy in 302 A.H. in the months of Rabi I from Ishaq bin Ibrahim Hanzali who was there in 238 A.H. and was known as Ishaq bin Rahuya from Yahya bin Yahya from Hisham from Mujalid from Shobi from Masrooq that he said:

One day we were in the company of Abdullah bin Masud to get our copies of Quran checked by him so that they were free of errors.

A young man asked: Has your Prophet told you about the number of his successors?
He replied: You are very young and it is something that no one has asked me before. Now I will tell you about it. Yes, our Prophet informed us that indeed there would twelve successors after him and it would be equal to the number of the chiefs of Bani Israel.

We have mentioned some chains of narrators of this tradition in this book of ours and some others are mentioned in our another book, An-Nass Alaal Aaimmatul Ithna Ashar (a.s.) bil Imamiyah. In this way, from our opponents some have narrated the traditions of reappearance to the level of usefulness.

Among these is the report of Jabir bin Samura that Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Ishaq ad-Dinawar, a tradition scholar, has narrated.

He says: Narrated to me Abu Bakr bin Abi Dawood from Ishaq bin Ibrahim bin Shazan from Walid bin Hisham from Muhammad bin Zukwan from his father from his father from Ibne Sirreen from Jabir bin Samura as-Sawai that he said:

We were in the company of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) when he said: There are twelve leaders for this Ummah.

Samura said: A clamor arose so I couldn’t hear what else the Prophet said. So I asked my father who was nearer to the Prophet, what he had said.
My father said: He said: All of them shall be from Quraish, such that their like is not seen.

I have also mentioned the various chains of reporters of this tradition. Some versions say:

There will be twelve Amirs (chiefs) and some say: There will be twelve successors. Thus it proves that traditions in Imamiyah books regarding the twelve Imams are authentic.



Part Two[

The Ismaili sect has rejected Imam Musa al-Kadhim [as] (The Seventh Shia Imam) by claiming that he (Musa al-Kadhim) in not the legitimate successor.

The Zaydis believe Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may peace be upon him) issued a Nass (verbal acknowledgment of the candidacy) in favor of Ismail when he (Ismail) was still alive.

Ismail is believed to have passed away in the lifetime of his father (Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq). The following blog entry: http://researchintoothersects.blogspot. ... ar-as.html contains some specific information of his death.

Shaykh Saduq clarified that the accusation from Zaydis are false and have no merit whatsoever. Even the tradition (below) that was presented by them to support the claim had been taken out of context

"The Almighty Allah did not effect change (Bada) in anything like He did regarding my son, Ismail".

The misinformation has been spread far and wide by irresponsible party. Please click http://researchintoothersects.blogspot. ... sadiq.html to see the explanation of the tradition (Bada in connection to the death of Ismail son of Imam as-Sadiq)

Shaykh Saduq asked his audience to evaluate the Zaydi's/Ismaili's accusation critically.
What is the basis of making the above statement? Did the Imam (as-Sadiq) really issued a nass to support the Imamah of his son Ismail? Who witnessed the proclamation? Who reported the incident? When did the event take place? Can the report be trusted?

The book stated that the opponents were not able to answer these questions convincingly.

We believe that those who believe in the Imamate of Ismail was a concocted the story. Ismail was not ma’sum (infallible). And only someone who is ma’sum (infallible) can become the true and absolute leader for mankind.



Part Three

We are then presented with a follow-up question from the opponenets

What are the arguments to reject the Imamah of Ismail son of Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (may peace be upon him)? And what evidence and proof do we have against the Ismaili (Ismaliyya) sect that follows this belief?

Firstly we reject the Imamah of Ismail based on the tradition of the twelve Imams.

Secondly, we reject Ismail based on traditions that prove Ismail’s died during the lifetime of his father.

Among the reports that prove his death during the lifetime of his father is one that was related to me by my father, who says: Narrated to us Saad bin Abdullah from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Isa from Hasan bin Saeed from Fuzala bin Ayyub and Hasan bin Ali Fuzzal from Yunus bin Yaqoob from Saeed bin Abdullah Al-Araaj who said:

Abu Abdillah Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: When Ismail died I ordered that the cloth should be removed from his face. Then I kissed his forehead, chin and upper breast. After that I ordered him to be covered with cloth again. Then I said: Uncover his face. And again I kissed his forehead, chin and upper breast. Then I again ordered him to be covered. Then I ordered and he was given the funeral bath. I came to his corpse when he had been shrouded and said: Uncover his face. And again I kissed his forehead, chin and upper part of breast.

Another point derived from this narration is that the Imam (a.s.) said: ‘I ordered that the funeral bath be given to him’ and he did not say: ‘I gave him the funeral bath myself’. And this tradition also mentions that which disproves the Imamate of Ismail. None other than Imam can give a funeral bath to an Imam, in his presence.

The Explict Designation Of Imam Musa Ibn Ja'far Al Kadhim [as]:

Ali bin Ja'far, the brother of Imam Musa al-Kazim (A.S.), a dependable, trustworthy narrator, is reported to have said, "I heard Abu-Ja'far bin Muhammad (a.s.) saying to some people from his entourage and close friends, 'Take good care of this son of mine, Musa. He is the best of my sons, and the best among whom I leave after me. He shall be my successor and the proof of Allah, the Exalted, over all his servants after me.

Imam Musa al-Kadhim [as] was the seventh of the Twelve Imams of Twelver Shi'a Islam. According to the Kitab al-Irshad of Sheikh al-Mufid:

Among the shaykhs of the followers of Abu Abd Allah Ja'far al-Sadiq, peace be on him, his special group (khassa), his inner circle and the trustworthy righteous legal scholars, may God have mercy on them, who report the clear designation of the Imamate by Abu Abd Allah Jafars peace be on him, for his son, Abu al-Hasan Musa, peace be on him, are: al-Mufaddal b. Umar al-Jufi, Mu'adh b. Kathir, Abd al-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj, al-Fayd b. al-Mukhtar, Yaqub al-Sarraj, Sulayman b. Khalid, Safwan al-Jammal... [That designation] is also reported by his two brothers, Ishaq and Ali, sons of Jafar, peace be on him.


Abdullah al-Aftah ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq

Abdullah al-Aftah ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq (d.766 CE / 149 A.H.) was the eldest surviving son of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (after al-Sadiq’s death) and the full-brother of Isma'il ibn Ja'far. Following Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq’s death, the majority of Ja'far’s followers accepted Abdullah al-Aftah as their new Imam. These followers were known as the Fathites and, according to the Mu'tazili heresiographer Abul-Qasim al-Balkhi al-Ka‘bi (d.319 A.H. / 931 CE), they were the biggest and most important section of the followers of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq.To support his claims, Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise) and his adherents cited a supposed Hadith from Ja'far al-Sadiq to the effect that the Imamate must be transmitted through the eldest son of the Imam. However, when Abdullah al-Aftah died childless about 70 days after the death of his father, the bulk of his supporters went over to his brother Musa al-Kadhim [as].


All credits are due to sister Gypsy from Shiachat

[Muslim First]

Ya Allah

What a tangled web you have spun for Shias.

[incredible]

a shia bohri or ithna ashari dont taste true Islam all his life.

he is always worried and tensed about every man made thing, and too much feared installed in their heart.

untill people break every thing and return back to ALLAH ALONE AND HIS PROPHET, these fear will slowly kill them.

[incredible]

this whole concept of Imam and ahlul bayt is made to install fear of following so call chain of prophethood in order to keep people busy with fear and greed.

ahlul bayt and all true Imam were good people and MOMEENIN,they should be respected and their life should be taken as good islamic life, nothing more nothing less.

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Alhamdulillah, it is by the grace & will Allah (swt) who guides us. Yes brother, we must take good morals & ethics from them but also recognise that the Imams of Ahlulbayt (as) are the only true legitimate successors of Prophet Muhammad (saww).

We don't fear anything except the fact that the majority will end up rejecting the Imam of our time.

[incredible]

Alhamdulillah, it is by the grace & will Allah (swt) who guides us. Yes brother, we must take good morals & ethics from them but also recognise that the Imams of Ahlulbayt (as) are the only true legitimate successors of Prophet Muhammad (saww).

We don't fear anything except the fact that the majority will end up rejecting the Imam of our time.

Thankyou for giving me kind reply without losing your temprament, normally people go mad when some thing is said against their belief, this shows your mind and soul is healthy and ready to accept truth.

as far as rejection of Imam is concern, people with true IMAAN and right mind set, will always recognize him, no matter from which sect or religion they belong.

only condition is they should be pure in their intentions.

[incredible]

there is a posibility where born shias will reject Imam and those who recenltly converted or not even converted will give oath to him, due to true intentions and purity of their heart.

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

there is a posibility where born shias will reject Imam and those who recenltly converted or not even converted will give oath to him, due to true intentions and purity of their heart.

I totally agree with you here; infact many narrations suggest that majority of shias will reject him for one reason or another, just like the majority rejected Imam Ali [as], only a few loyal remained.

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Thankyou for giving me kind reply without losing your temprament, normally people go mad when some thing is said against their belief, this shows your mind and soul is healthy and ready to accept truth.

as far as rejection of Imam is concern, people with true IMAAN and right mind set, will always recognize him, no matter from which sect or religion they belong.

only condition is they should be pure in their intentions.

That is correct; like I stated above, many shi'as are just 'shia' by name but don't really act on the title. Great companions of the 'Aimmah [as] such as Miqdad, Bilal, Abu Dharr, Salman, etc. The list goes on. These were the real shia's of the Imams.

But of course, true faith comes with understanding the true 'aqeedah as taught by Muhammad [saww] & his Ahlulbayt [as], once we understand this then we come to implement the practical aspects of the faith such as prayer, fasting and all the Waajib & Mustahab (recommended) acts as required by Islam.

The combination of the two is what leads to true submission to the commands of Allah [azwj] and true spirituality; this will ultimately help us recognise the Imam.

Whilst people of other faiths will come to the true path (including when the imam arrives) at the same time many current shias will reject him.

[alwan]

Abdullah al-Aftah ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq (d.766 CE / 149 A.H.) was the eldest surviving son of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (after al-Sadiq’s death) and the full-brother of Isma'il ibn Ja'far. Following Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq’s death, the majority of Ja'far’s followers accepted Abdullah al-Aftah as their new Imam. These followers were known as the Fathites and, according to the Mu'tazili heresiographer Abul-Qasim al-Balkhi al-Ka‘bi (d.319 A.H. / 931 CE), they were the biggest and most important section of the followers of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq.To support his claims, Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise) and his adherents cited a supposed Hadith from Ja'far al-Sadiq to the effect that the Imamate must be transmitted through the eldest son of the Imam. However, when Abdullah al-Aftah died childless about 70 days after the death of his father, the bulk of his supporters went over to his brother Musa al-Kadhim [as].

I don't quite understand.

If Jaffer Sadiq made the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim, then why after his death, majority of his followers accepted Abdullah al-Aftah as their new Imam and not Musa Kadhim ?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Abdullah al-Aftah ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq (d.766 CE / 149 A.H.) was the eldest surviving son of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (after al-Sadiq’s death) and the full-brother of Isma'il ibn Ja'far. Following Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq’s death, the majority of Ja'far’s followers accepted Abdullah al-Aftah as their new Imam. These followers were known as the Fathites and, according to the Mu'tazili heresiographer Abul-Qasim al-Balkhi al-Ka‘bi (d.319 A.H. / 931 CE), they were the biggest and most important section of the followers of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq.To support his claims, Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise) and his adherents cited a supposed Hadith from Ja'far al-Sadiq to the effect that the Imamate must be transmitted through the eldest son of the Imam. However, when Abdullah al-Aftah died childless about 70 days after the death of his father, the bulk of his supporters went over to his brother Musa al-Kadhim [as].

I don't quite understand.

If Jaffer Sadiq made the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim, then why after his death, majority of his followers accepted Abdullah al-Aftah as their new Imam and not Musa Kadhim ?

Assalamu 'Alaikum

Yes, an explicit designation was made during the lifetime of As-Sadiq [as] & we have traditions that allude to the Imamate of Imam al-kadhm [as], yet the situation was apparently unclear to some of the early shi'as including some of As-Sadiq [as]'s other companions & followers due to the fact that our Imam [as] was unable to announce his successor at the time of his death (Or assassination rather). We must also look at the politcal situation at the time, the Imamate of al-kadhim [as] had to be announced extremely carefully. Even with this, the Abbasids imprisoned him and killed him, then displaying his body so that his followers would see he was dead.

As mentioned from my post above, it is reported from the two other sons of As-Sadiq [as] who were known for their righteousness & piety, Ali Ibn Ja'far & Ishaq Ibn Ja'far; both were firm supporters of Musa's [as] Imamate.


Regarding the Fathiyya (Those who followed 'Abdullah Al-Aftah)

The word Fat`hiyya comes from the Arabic root word Fa Ta `Ha, which means to open. Specifically, the group derives its name from its Imam of difference, Abdillah al-Aftah ('aftah' has the same root).

Abdillah al-Aftah was the eldest son of Ja`far as-Sadiq (as), whose kunya many of us know as Abu `Abdillah. After the death of his father, al-Aftah claimed Imamate to himself, which gained the curiosity and interest of the Shi`a (ra) of Imam as-Sadiq (as). Shaykh al-Mufid's Kitab al-Irshad outlines the situation:

The people had agreed that Abd Allah b. Jafar was the leader of the affair (sahib al-amr) after his father. We went to visit him and the people were with him.

As we see, the bulk of the Shi`a were deceived into thinking Abdillah al-Aftah was the Imam (thus becoming Fat`hiyyat). Hisham ibn Salim (ra) and Muhammed ibn Nu`man, both companions of his father, wanted to test the false Imam by asking him an Islamic question. They asked how many dirhams out of 200 dirhams does zakaat take? al-Aftah answered "5" (2.5%).

We went to visit him and the people were with him. We questioned him about how much poor-tax (zakat) had to be paid. "Five dirhams on two hundred dirhams," he answered.
"How much on a hundred dirhams?" we asked. "Two and a half dirhams," he answered. "By God, you are declaring the doctrine of the Murji'a," we said. "By God," he retorted, "I do not know the doctrine of the Murji'a."


We questioned him about how much poor-tax (zakat) had to be paid. "Five dirhams on two hundred dirhams," he answered.
"How much on a hundred dirhams?" we asked. "Two and a half dirhams," he answered. "By God, you are declaring the doctrine of the Murji'a," we said. "By God," he retorted, "I do not know the doctrine of the Murji'a."


In the Shia Imami school, one does not pay Zakaat on 100 dirhams, so many of the companions of the Imam knew from right there that al-Aftah was not an Imam.

Hisham ibn Salim and Muhammed ibn Nu`man then wept, thinking the Imamate had died, and went to wonder which sect they should instead join. Murji'ites, the Qadarites, the Mu`tazilites, and the Zaydites? They then came across a man, who led them to the other son of Ja`far, none other than the 7th Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as).

We were in this situation when I saw a venerable man whom I did not know. He indicated to me with his hand. I was afraid that he was one of the spies of (the Abbasid caliph) Abu Jafar al-Mansur. There were spies in Medina for him (to find out) who the people agreed on to succeed Jafar. Then that man (i.e. the Imam) would be captured and executed. I was afraid that that man was one of them. "Go aside," I said to al-Ahwal, "I am afraid for myself. You be careful. He only wants me. He does not want you. Leave me, for you will lead (him) to yourself.

(Al-Ahwal) went some distance away from me and I went over to the venerable man. That was because I thought that I would not be able to escape from him. As I followed him, I was certain of my own death until he brought me to the door of Abu al-Hasan Musa, peace be on him.

After convincing the companions that he was the Imam, he told them to make da`wa in secret, call the other Shi`as to his Imamate in secret, otherwise his blood will be spilled. And as we know, the Abbasids later did not spare the blood of Musa al-Kadhim [as].

Please read the full hadith from Kitab Al-Irshad from this link: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234 ... -kadhim-a/

Abdillah al-Aftah died 70 days after his father, and thus, the Fat`hiyya did not last, and was instead split up. A portion of his followers abandoned his Imamate at its beginning (with Hisham), and a portion abandoned it later (The majority of whom went back to the Imamate of al-kadhim [as]). Another group claimed that the Imamate went from al-Aftah to al-Kadhim (therefore making him the 8th and not 7th imam). Those that retained al-Aftah's Imamate further split into two groups, some that said he was the final (7th) Imam, and others that believed he had a secret son, named Muhammed ibn Abdillah, in occultation, who was the Qa`im of Ahl al-Bayt.

[Muslim First]

as far as rejection of Imam is concern, people with true IMAAN and right mind set, will always recognize him, no matter from which sect or religion they belong.

can you list names of true Imams of today?

only condition is they should be pure in their intentions.
Who?

[alwan]

Yes, an explicit designation was made during the lifetime of As-Sadiq [as] & we have traditions that allude to the Imamate of Imam al-kadhm [as], yet the situation was apparently unclear to some of the early shi'as including some of As-Sadiq [as]'s other companions & followers due to the fact that our Imam [as] was unable to announce his successor at the time of his death (Or assassination rather). We must also look at the politcal situation at the time, the Imamate of al-kadhim [as] had to be announced extremely carefully.

Thanx for the reply.

I am trying to picture what really happened after the death of Jaffer Sadiq.

When you said that he had made "explicit designation of Musa Kadhim", I mistook it to mean "he announced it to his followers"

So after the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim to few/some, majority followers of Jaffer Sadiq were not aware who the next Imam was.

Now about a part from your post:

Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise)

It seems there was a 1st Nass. It was for whom ?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Thanx for the reply.

I am trying to picture what really happened after the death of Jaffer Sadiq.

When you said that he had made "explicit designation of Musa Kadhim", I mistook it to mean "he announced it to his followers"

So after the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim to few/some, majority followers of Jaffer Sadiq were not aware who the next Imam was.

Now about a part from your post:
Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise)

It seems there was a 1st Nass. It was for whom ?

No worries. The majority were quite astounded after when Abdullah Al-Aftah made the claim to the Imamate and the bulk went to his side initially, and you can read from my answer above how the supposed imamate of al-aftah was disproven.

Regarding this point: 'Abdullah al-Aftah seems to have claimed a 2nd Nass from his father (following Ismā'īl's demise) and his adherents cited a supposed Hadith from Ja'far al-Sadiq to the effect that the Imamate must be transmitted through the eldest son of the Imam. However, when Abdullah al-Aftah died childless about 70 days after the death of his father, the bulk of his supporters went over to his brother Musa al-Kadhim [as].'

I think what it means is that he knew that Imam Musa (as) had the nass from Imam As-Sadiq [as] but also he claimed it for himself and so it would mean a supposed 2nd nass.

Unfortunately, the Ismailis have very little to offer in terms of evidence; they tend to rely on speculative nonsense + outdated orientalist literature. For example, Ismail passing away during his father's life time is a well known fact but yet they have had to come up with contradictory ways to explain, saying that it was a ruse to protect his son & that it was abdullah and not Ismail; all this is nothing but confusion & contradiciton. In addition, it is ignoring the fact that the belief in the imamate of Ismai'l was always a very fringe doctrine, not associated with the closest followers of Imam As-Sadiq. Then of course, it's not even touching on the mess of the inconcistency that follows after, with the contradictory and ever changing claims of the da'wat to suit their wants of the day.

Imam As-Sadiq [as] clearly buried Ismail with his own hands and made more than 30 of his close friends & companions bear witness that it was Ismail in the coffin.

[alwan]

I think what it means is that he knew that Imam Musa (as) had the nass from Imam As-Sadiq [as] but also he claimed it for himself and so it would mean a supposed 2nd nass.

so the first nass to Musa Kadhim and supposed second nass to Abdullah Aftah.

The majority were quite astounded after when Abdullah Al-Aftah made the claim to the Imamate and the bulk went to his side initially

I was under impression by your initial posting, that "the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim" was known by few, and majority of Jaffer Sadiq's followers did not know who the next Imam was.

Then how come the majority were quite astounded after when Abdullah Al-Aftah made the claim to the Imamate and yet accepted him as the Imam ?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

I think what it means is that he knew that Imam Musa (as) had the nass from Imam As-Sadiq [as] but also he claimed it for himself and so it would mean a supposed 2nd nass.

so the first nass to Musa Kadhim and supposed second nass to Abdullah Aftah.

The majority were quite astounded after when Abdullah Al-Aftah made the claim to the Imamate and the bulk went to his side initially

I was under impression by your initial posting, that "the explicit designation of Musa Kadhim" was known by few, and majority of Jaffer Sadiq's followers did not know who the next Imam was.

Then how come the majority were quite astounded after when Abdullah Al-Aftah made the claim to the Imamate and yet accepted him as the Imam ?

1. Yes, I mean in the sense that he already knew about the nass of his brother, but he wanted to claim the Imamate for himself instead (so being a supposed second)

2. Al-Aftah's declaration for the Imamate was made public and Al-Kadhim's [as] was made in private, you can imagine why the former got more attention than the later. But, since Al-Aftah's death and lack of a son occurred only a couple months after his father's (Imam sadiq), the period of his 'imamate' wasn't long enough to cause as serious problem to the Shi'ite theology, and thus, the fathiyya died out soon later.

Yes, 'explicit' meaning in the sense that it was made clear during As-Sadiq's [as] lifetime, but not everyone knew at the time.

Please read this article which highlights the activities of the followers during Al-Kadhim's [as] lifetime.: http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=6594


Mind you, the fat'hiyya were not the only group that popped up after As-Sadiq [as]. The followers went into the following directions:

1. A large chunk of the Imam's followers went towards his eldest son, Abdullah ibn Ja'far al-Aftah. This sect was known as the Aftahiyya/Fathiyya/Fathites.

2. One sect believed that Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Mubarak was the original heir to the Imamate, but his death presupposed his father's. The Mubarakiyya sect believed Isma'il went into occultation.

3. The proto-Isma'ili sect believed that although Isma'il had died, the Imamate went to his son, Muhammed ibn Isma'il. He remained in contact with the Mubarakiyya.

4. One group believed Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) was al-Qa`im, who had gone into occultation rather than dying. These were the Tawussiyya/Tawussites

5. The people who believed in the Imamate of Musa al-Kadhim (as). This began with prominent students of his father like Hisham ibn Hakam (ra), and then later joined by the bulk of Abdullah's followers before and after his death.

[alwan]

1. A large chunk of the Imam's followers went towards his eldest son, Abdullah ibn Ja'far al-Aftah. This sect was known as the Aftahiyya/Fathiyya/Fathites.

2. One sect believed that Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Mubarak was the original heir to the Imamate, but his death presupposed his father's. The Mubarakiyya sect believed Isma'il went into occultation.

3. The proto-Isma'ili sect believed that although Isma'il had died, the Imamate went to his son, Muhammed ibn Isma'il. He remained in contact with the Mubarakiyya.

4. One group believed Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) was al-Qa`im, who had gone into occultation rather than dying. These were the Tawussiyya/Tawussites

5. The people who believed in the Imamate of Musa al-Kadhim (as). This began with prominent students of his father like Hisham ibn Hakam (ra), and then later joined by the bulk of Abdullah's followers before and after his death.

Thank you again for your response.

I am just trying to visualize the scene, as to what happened after the demise of Jaffer Sadiq.

Abdullah Aftah had majority followers and when he died ( after 70 days ), he left no heir so bulk of his followers gave allegiance to Musa Kadhim.

Am I correct in understanding the above ?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

Thank you again for your response.

I am just trying to visualize the scene, as to what happened after the demise of Jaffer Sadiq.

Abdullah Aftah had majority followers and when he died ( after 70 days ), he left no heir so bulk of his followers gave allegiance to Musa Kadhim.

Am I correct in understanding the above ?

That is correct brother.

Just another point, you will often find the Ismailis finding contradictory ways to explain the demise of Ismail, some saying it was a ruse, some saying it was not Ismail but rather 'Abdullah and saying Ismail had fled to madinah. But of course, it could not have been 'Abdullah because he lived after Ismail's demise and of course as we now know, people took abdullah as an Imam afterwards.

If we think logically, Is it possible for Imam Ja'far [as] who's title was 'As-Sadiq' (The truthful one) to falsify the death of his son to save his skin and in consequence cause millions of people to be deviated from the right path? Can he leave all these people in the darkness of ignorance?

We have reports along with its chain of narrators going up to Imam As-Sadiq [as] indicating that the Imam himself buried Ismai'l with his own hands and that the major companions from his entourage beared witness to this and this fact has been recorded by majority of sources as well.

[alwan]

Thank you again for your response.

I am just trying to visualize the scene, as to what happened after the demise of Jaffer Sadiq.

Abdullah Aftah had majority followers and when he died ( after 70 days ), he left no heir so bulk of his followers gave allegiance to Musa Kadhim.

Am I correct in understanding the above ?

That is correct brother.

Also Abdullah Aftah had majority followers because he claimed to have nass from Jaffer Sadiq.
And after dying childless, his followers realized he was not the "True Imam" so Musa Kadhim must be the True Imam.

Am I correct in adding the above ?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

That is correct brother.

Also Abdullah Aftah had majority followers because he claimed to have nass from Jaffer Sadiq.
And after dying childless, his followers realized he was not the "True Imam" so Musa Kadhim must be the True Imam.

Am I correct in adding the above ?

Yes, he claimed his declaration openly in public whilst Imam Al-Kadhim [as]'s wasn't. If you read above, the incident is mentioned of how the supposed 'Imamate' of Al-Aftah was disproven; 1. By dying childless, 2. Getting the questions regarding zakah wrong, 3. I have come across another incident in which Imam Al kadhim [as] invited him and asked him to jump in the fire because if he truly was an Imam then no harm would have befell him, yet he did not jump.

[Muslim First]

Yes, he claimed his declaration openly in public whilst Imam Al-Kadhim [as]'s wasn't. If you read above, the incident is mentioned of how the supposed 'Imamate' of Al-Aftah was disproven; 1. By dying childless, 2. Getting the questions regarding zakah wrong, 3. I have come across another incident in which Imam Al kadhim [as] invited him and asked him to jump in the fire because if he truly was an Imam then no harm would have befell him, yet he did not jump.

This is sure fire test for true Imam.
Ask him to jump in fire
Would Karim Aga Khan jump in fire?
Or
Badrijanab's imam jump in fire when he comes out?

BTW
What are 12vers trying to prove?

[Muslim First]

This article explores the history of Imamah, and we find that after the death of each of their Imams, the Shia split into more and more sects. Each sect took a different person to be the successor to the dead Imam. The Shia criticize the Ahlus Sunnah for not following the Imam, but they themselves cannot decide upon who is the Imam!

Turbulent History of Imamah

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... mamah.html

This is interesting

In Shia belief, it is Kufr (disbelief) to falsely ascribe Imamah to an individual who is not really the Imam. As such, each Shia sect looks down upon the other Shia sects as Kufaar (disbelievers) since they follow a different chain of Imamah. An unbiased outsider would no doubt find this amusing, but the Ithna Ashari Shia is adamant when he looks down on Ismailis, Aga Khanis, Bohras, Druze, and other Shia sects, unable to see the same inaneness about himself. In their own circles, the Ithna Ashari Shia scoff at Ismailis and look at them as a silly minority of heretics. Little do these same Ithna Ashari Shia realize that the vast majority of the Ummah (namely the Ahlus Sunnah) looks down upon the Ithna Ashari Shia in the same way. Shi’ism is simply a collection of heretics of every different color.

Even the way a Shia has to identify himself is reflective of the number of sects at every turn: the Shia must describe himself as not just an Ithna Ashari but rather as Ithna Ashari Imami Usooli Jaffari Shia.

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

This article explores the history of Imamah, and we find that after the death of each of their Imams, the Shia split into more and more sects. Each sect took a different person to be the successor to the dead Imam. The Shia criticize the Ahlus Sunnah for not following the Imam, but they themselves cannot decide upon who is the Imam!

Turbulent History of Imamah

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... mamah.html

This is interesting

In Shia belief, it is Kufr (disbelief) to falsely ascribe Imamah to an individual who is not really the Imam. As such, each Shia sect looks down upon the other Shia sects as Kufaar (disbelievers) since they follow a different chain of Imamah. An unbiased outsider would no doubt find this amusing, but the Ithna Ashari Shia is adamant when he looks down on Ismailis, Aga Khanis, Bohras, Druze, and other Shia sects, unable to see the same inaneness about himself. In their own circles, the Ithna Ashari Shia scoff at Ismailis and look at them as a silly minority of heretics. Little do these same Ithna Ashari Shia realize that the vast majority of the Ummah (namely the Ahlus Sunnah) looks down upon the Ithna Ashari Shia in the same way. Shi’ism is simply a collection of heretics of every different color.

Even the way a Shia has to identify himself is reflective of the number of sects at every turn: the Shia must describe himself as not just an Ithna Ashari but rather as Ithna Ashari Imami Usooli Jaffari Shia.

Are you seriously dependent on those articles? You do realise how many times those bogus anti-shia websites have been answered time & time again, its the same arguments recycled all over again. It is anything but academic.

http://www.ghadir786.com/ - A new website made by a good brother replies back very nicely.

[Muslim First]

If you are serious about "Imamah"
Answer this

How Does the Current Imam Lead the Shia?

[Khadhim Al Mahdi]

If you are serious about "Imamah"
Answer this

How Does the Current Imam Lead the Shia?

It has been narrated by Mohammed Ibn Ahmed Al-shaibani, who from Ahmed ibn Yahiya ibn Zakarya Al-Qatan, who from Bakr ibn Abd Allah ibn Habib, who from Al-Fazal ibn Saqar ibn Al-Abadi, who from Abu Muawiya who from Salaman ibn Mehran Al-Amish who has said:

I heard it from Al-Sadiq Jafar [as] Ibn Mohammed [as], who from his father, Muhammad Bin Ali [as], who from his father, Ali Ibn Al-Hussayn [as], who has said:

We are the Imams of the Muslims and the 'Proofs of Allah' on the universe and we are the cheif of the believers, and are the guides of the people of paradise have bright hands and faces. And we are the guardians of the believers, because of us, the people of the earth are protected (From Allah's wrath due to their sins), as the stars are stabilising the residents of the skies for our sake.

Due to our presence, Allah [azwj] holds back the sky from falling onto the earth, and because of his [azwj]'s greatness and our regard, Allah protects the earth from tripping over and taking into its depth its inhabitants. Allah [azwj] sends down rain due to us and extends his bounties. The treasures of the earth are surfaced due to us.

If the Earth would not find an Imam from us upon it, it would destabilise and get destroyed along with what is on it. And then said: Allah never Lets the earth to be but with a Divine Imam, since the time of it’s first inhabitant, Prophet Adam. Either the Authority of Allah (the Imam) is visible and well known to its inhabitants or is in occultation and is made obscure from people’s eyes, but (in any case) the earth will not remain without an Imam until the Doom’s day. With the presence of the Imam on the face of the earth, ‘Ibaada’ (worship) cannot be performed (as it will be worthless).

Suleiman says, I asked Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq [as]: ‘How people are going to get benefit from an Imam who is in occultation and obscure from the eyes of the people?' Imam replied:' Similar to the people benefiting from the Sun rays, when it is covered by the clouds.'

(Source: Kamaluddeen - Shaykh Sadooq)


These threads may also help: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235 ... 12th-imam/

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235 ... cultation/

In addition brother, you must first understand the position of wilayah and Imamah in Islam & according to the traditions, the wisdom behind this and also the matter of occultation which is a very lengthy topic.

[Muslim First]

Brother
Please prove your doctrine from Quran (simply by pasting the verse with no commentary and no hadith). and I ask you about the practicability of doctrine in the absent of an accessible Imaam.
( Something like this
O Prophet, after you there will be imams from the progeny of Ali, there will be 12 or 5or 7 or 49 Hazir imams)

I believe, these remain as two severe problems with Shia belief and no answer could be given for them unless new verses of Quran come down and their so called Imaam of Time come out of his occultation. As I don’t think that any of these would happen I had no problems in posting this here knowing that Shia brothers and sisters will also read it. There are no hidden plans. These are facts.

Please do not send me to Shiachat sites. I am tired reading them.
And
What is wrong with sincere
5 Salah on time, zakat, fast in Ramadan and Hujj if you can afford it?

[alwan]

Yes, he claimed his declaration openly in public whilst Imam Al-Kadhim [as]'s wasn't. If you read above, the incident is mentioned of how the supposed 'Imamate' of Al-Aftah was disproven; 1. By dying childless, 2. Getting the questions regarding zakah wrong, 3. I have come across another incident in which Imam Al kadhim [as] invited him and asked him to jump in the fire because if he truly was an Imam then no harm would have befell him, yet he did not jump.

It seems that immediately after demise of Jaffer Sadiq, majority of his followers did not know Abdullah Aftah nor Musa Kadhim had nass till they started claiming to have nass.
Abdullah Aftah claimed nass publicly and Musa Kadhim claimed nass privately.

But on other hand, followers of the "already dead" Ismail, did know Ismail had the nass from his father without Ismail being there physically to claim it.

Does that not prove that Jaffer Sadiq did give nass to Ismail ?

[SBM]

Please prove your doctrine from Quran (simply by pasting the verse with no commentary and no hadith)

Br MF
You can not have it both ways, when you want to prove your point you always quote Hadith and here you come and ask some one to prove only from Quran. Can you provide from Quran how to establish the Salahs?
Disclaimer: I am neither a staunch Shia nor a Sunni and I follow median path both schools of thoughts have some positive and some negative teachings.

[Muslim First]

Please prove your doctrine from Quran (simply by pasting the verse with no commentary and no hadith)

Br MF
You can not have it both ways, when you want to prove your point you always quote Hadith and here you come and ask some one to prove only from Quran. Can you provide from Quran how to establish the Salahs?
Disclaimer: I am neither a staunch Shia nor a Sunni and I follow median path both schools of thoughts have some positive and some negative teachings.

Salah is mentioned in Qura over 90 times
All movements are also mentioned

So is fast, zakat, sadaqa and hajj

How to perform Salat and what to recite, We turn to Sunnah

If Waliya or/and Imamah after prophet is in Quran then please quote.

Let me Quote this

The Quran Challenge
This is an open challenge for the Shia to give Quranic verses which outline and justify the Shia concept of Imamah. Can the Shia produce even a single verse outlining Imamah, without any additions to the translation, without parenthetical insertions to the translation, without Hadith to “support” their interpretation, without Tafseer, and without their own personal commentaries leading us from verse to verse?

When the Shia is forced to produce the Quranic verses without any additions, he will find it impossible to even come close to fulfilling the “Quran Challenge.” Not a single verse in the Quran says anything even remotely close to “The Quran Challenge

This is an open challenge for the Shia to give Quranic verses which outline and justify the Shia concept of Imamah. Can the Shia produce even a single verse outlining Imamah, without any additions to the translation, without parenthetical insertions to the translation, without Hadith to “support” their interpretation, without Tafseer, and without their own personal commentaries leading us from verse to verse?

When the Shia is forced to produce the Quranic verses without any additions, he will find it impossible to even come close to fulfilling the “Quran Challenge.” Not a single verse in the Quran says anything even remotely close to “O believers, after the Prophet, there will be twelve Imams chosen by Allah and you should follow them.” The Shia can never produce a single verse in the Quran that shows anything even similar to this. In fact, the Shia will be forced to produce long Tafseer and circuitious arguments involving certain verses with added meanings to them; but if we ask the Shia to simply read the verse without any insertions, then suddenly they cannot produce even a single verse in the Quran to justify Imamah. Suffice to say that the Shia becomes polemically incapacitated if he is forced to use the Quran and Quran alone.

The Shia have stated that Imamah is the fundamental of faith, and so there should thus be many verses in the Quran on this topic. Yet, the “Quran Challenge” only asks for the Shia to produce even a couple of verses from the Quran, yet even this is not possible. Not a single verse in the Quran mentions the names of their Infallible Imams; not even Ali’s name (رضّى الله عنه) is ever mentioned in the Quran. But more importantly than this, there is not a single mention of the very concept of Imamah. This is peculiar, to say the least; how can Imamah be part of Usool-e-Deen (a fundamental pillar of faith) and yet not be mentioned even a single time in the Quran? The truth is that the Quran mentions all the fundamentals of belief, and if something is not in the Quran, then that “thing” cannot possibly be a fundamental of belief. believers, after the Prophet, there will be twelve Imams chosen by Allah and you should follow them.” The Shia can never produce a single verse in the Quran that shows anything even similar to this. In fact, the Shia will be forced to produce long Tafseer and circuitious arguments involving certain verses with added meanings to them; but if we ask the Shia to simply read the verse without any insertions, then suddenly they cannot produce even a single verse in the Quran to justify Imamah. Suffice to say that the Shia becomes polemically incapacitated if he is forced to use the Quran and Quran alone.

The Shia have stated that Imamah is the fundamental of faith, and so there should thus be many verses in the Quran on this topic. Yet, the “Quran Challenge” only asks for the Shia to produce even a couple of verses from the Quran, yet even this is not possible. Not a single verse in the Quran mentions the names of their Infallible Imams; not even Ali’s name (رضّى الله عنه) is ever mentioned in the Quran. But more importantly than this, there is not a single mention of the very concept of Imamah. This is peculiar, to say the least; how can Imamah be part of Usool-e-Deen (a fundamental pillar of faith) and yet not be mentioned even a single time in the Quran? The truth is that the Quran mentions all the fundamentals of belief, and if something is not in the Quran, then that “thing” cannot possibly be a fundamental of belief.

[Muslim First]

Can you provide from Quran how to establish the Salahs?

Here is Br anajmi's answer

Re: Answer to very important Question
by anajmi on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:09 pm

So according to you, the teachings of the prophet (saw), with respect to Salaah, can be safely ignored right?

Thank you for clarifying your deen. We will try to ignore it.

By the way, everything you have stated can be very easily countered. For eg. what if each person decided to pray a different number of rakat? How do we then pray as a congregation? But I won't go into further detail because it would be a waste of time.

Here is your ayah of today

2:3 Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what we have provided for them.

Do you know the meaning of "establish prayer"? How do you "establish" prayer? Check a dictionary.