Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

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alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#61

Unread post by alwan » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:18 am

Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:Anyway, the last hadith I want to end off with which is in Sahih Muslim which says that 'This Amr will not dissappear in the earth even if there's only two people left on it' so saying that the khilafah will not leave the earth even if there are 2 people left on it. So even if there are only 2 muslims left of the Ummah of Muhammad [saww], one of them would be calipha and one of them would be the follower. Now the question is who is the calipha today?

But now we have a unique issue in the history of the Ummah and the issue is that, you don't have a caliph. Now you can either say that Rasoolallah [saww] was wrong (astaghfirullah) or you can revisit your interpretation of Khilafah because your interpretation says that there's more than 50 khulafah, when the prophet said there will only be 12.
There is something I don't understand.

If God wanted Imam always to be present in every age, then He wouldn't have restricted their number to 12 (unless Imam # 12 was in during end of times).

According to your understanding of 013:007, Prophet is the Warner and Imam is the Guide.

Now in order Prophet to do his job as a Warner, he had been physically present to "warn".

Do you think the Prophet would have accomplished his job as a Warner while in occultation ?

Do you think Ali would have accomplished his job as a Guide while in occultation ?

How is the present Imam of the Time accomplishing his job as a Guide while in occultation ?

Khadhim Al Mahdi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#62

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:06 am

alwan wrote:
Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:Anyway, the last hadith I want to end off with which is in Sahih Muslim which says that 'This Amr will not dissappear in the earth even if there's only two people left on it' so saying that the khilafah will not leave the earth even if there are 2 people left on it. So even if there are only 2 muslims left of the Ummah of Muhammad [saww], one of them would be calipha and one of them would be the follower. Now the question is who is the calipha today?

But now we have a unique issue in the history of the Ummah and the issue is that, you don't have a caliph. Now you can either say that Rasoolallah [saww] was wrong (astaghfirullah) or you can revisit your interpretation of Khilafah because your interpretation says that there's more than 50 khulafah, when the prophet said there will only be 12.
There is something I don't understand.

If God wanted Imam always to be present in every age, then He wouldn't have restricted their number to 12 (unless Imam # 12 was in during end of times).

According to your understanding of 013:007, Prophet is the Warner and Imam is the Guide.

Now in order Prophet to do his job as a Warner, he had been physically present to "warn".

Do you think the Prophet would have accomplished his job as a Warner while in occultation ?
n
Do you think Ali would have accomplished his job as a Guide while in occultation ?

How is the present Imam of the Time accomplishing his job as a Guide while in occultation ?
Well brother, we cannot say Allah should have done this or that, if he wants to do something he will do it through his ultimate wisdom. In sahih muslim version, it says that there will be for you 12 caliph until qiyamah. Major prophets in the past also had periods of 'occultation' themselves and there was no physical guide then, but they were awaiting one & knew what they had to do. In our time, the Imam is present among us, but not in the public.

Each Prophet & Imam lived through different phases in history and had to deal with their respective situations accordingly. We have reasons for the occultation as well as certain duties we are supposed to fulfill whilst anticipating the return of the Imam. We have one hadith from Imam sadiq [as] for example that goes along the lines 'The benefit of the Imam in ghayba is like the example of the clouds covering the sun.' We still get benefit, but we don't see it.
Last edited by Khadhim Al Mahdi on Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Khadhim Al Mahdi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#63

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:46 am

Dear Bro Khadhim,
That is fine. I seek general tafseer as well. And based upon the previous example that we saw, Ahlul Bayt are apparently not the only ones with the knowledge. If they are the only ones with that knowledge, then you will have to share with me something that no one other than only you knows, through the Ahlul Bayt. But then, remember, as soon as you share it with me, then I will know it too.
How did the companions do what? Explain the allegorical ayahs? They didn't. For example - the very first ayah of surah baqara. I do not have an explanation for it. Did the Ahlul Bayt give you an explanation? Did the prophet (saw) give you an explanation?
Yes brother, Here is a hadith about the huroof Al-Muqatta'ah:

From Sufyaan al-Thawree said, “I said to Al-Saadiq (as) ‘O’ Son of the Messenger of Allah! What is the meaning of the words of Allah, The Powerful and Exalted, Alif, Lam, Meem and Alif, Lam, Meem, Saad and Aleef, Lam, Ra and Aleef, Lam, Meem, Ra and Kaf, Ha, Ya, `Ayn, Saad and Ta, Ha and Ta, Seen and Ta, Seen, Meem and Ya, Seen and Saad and Ha, Meem and Ha, Meem, `Ayn, Seen, Qaaf and Qaaf and Noon?”

The Imaam (as) said, “As for Alif, Lam, Meem in the beginning of Surah al-Baqarah, it means ‘I am Allah the King’; and the Alif, Lam, Meem in the beginning of Surah Ale `Imraan means ‘I am Allah the Noble’; the meaning of Alif, Lam, Meem, Saad is ‘I am Allah, The Decider, the Truthful’ ; and Alif, Lam, Ra means ‘I am Allah, the Forgiving’ ; the meaning of Alif, Lam, Meem, Ra is ‘I am Allah, The Giver of Life, The Taker of Life, The Sustainer’ ; the meaning of Kaf, Ha, Ya, 'Ayn, Saad is ‘I am The Sufficient, the Guide, The Protecting Friend, The Knowledgeable, The One Who is Truthful to His Promise’ ; as for Ta, Ha, this is one of the name from the names of the Prophet, blessings of All¡h be upon him and his progeny, and its meaning is ‘O’ Searcher of Truth and The Guide to it (the truth), we have not revealed unto you the Qur’aan so that you may be unsuccessful (in your mission), rather, through it, We wish to give you good fortune’ ; as for the meaning of Ta Seen, it means ‘I am The Claimant and The Hearer of All’ ; as for Ta Seen Meem, it means ‘I am The Claimant, The Hearer of all, The Originator and the Ender’ ; as for the meaning of Ya Seen, this is one name from the names of the Prophet, blessings of Allaah be upon him and his progeny and it means, ‘O’ you who are listening to Our Revelation and the Qur’aan full of Wisdom, surely you are of Our Emissaries, upon the Straight Path; and as for Saad, it is a spring that originates from under the Divine Throne (of Allaah) and it is from this spring of water that the Prophet, blessings of Allaah be upon him and his progeny, performed Wudhoo- when he was carried into the heavens (on the Night Journey – al-Me`raaj) and it is this same stream of water which Jibreel, goes to every day and submerges himself into. He then comes out of this stream and shakes off all of the water that is on his wings and there is not a single drop of water that falls off of his wings except that All¡h, the Glorified and High, creates from that drop of water, an Angel who glorifies, sanctifies, exclaims the greatness and praises Allaah until the Day of Judgement; as for Ha, Meem, its meaning is ‘The Praised, the Glorified’ ; and as for Ha Meem 'Ayn Seen Qaaf, its meaning is ‘The Forbearing, The Rewarder, The Knowledgeable, The Hearer of All, The All Able, the All Powerful’ ; as for Qaaf, ‘it is a mountain that covers the Earth and the greenness of the sky comes from it, and through this mountain does Allaah spread out the Earth for the people living there on’; as for Noon, this is a stream of water in Paradise which Allaah, the Powerful and Exalted, told to coagulate and so it coagulated, and then He fashioned a pencil. Then He, the Powerful and Exalted, said to the pen, ‘Write!’ So then the pen wrote on the Al-LawH Al-MaHfoodh(The Protected Tablet) all that has happened and all that will happen until the Day of Judgement. And the pen is of Divine Light (noor) and the pencil is of Divine Light (noor) and the Law (tablet) is of Divine Light (noor).’ ”

Sufyaan then said, “I said to him, O’ son of the Messenger of Allah! Explain to me the command of the Law and the Pen and the Pencil - a complete explanation - and teach me that which Allah has taught you!” The Imaam replied, “O’ Son of Sa`id! Certainly if you had not been a person who was worthy of replying, then I would not have replied to you. So then, Noon is an Angel who leads to the Pen and it (the Pen) is an Angel and the Pen leads to the Law (tablet) and it too (the Law) is an Angel and the Law leads to the Angel Israafeel and Israafeel leads to Mika'eel and Mika'eel leads to Jibraa’eel and Jibraa’eel leads to all of the Prophets and Messengers, prayers of Allah be upon all of them.” The Imam then said to me, “Get up O’ Sufyaan since there is no security for you (since I have conveyed to you this hidden knowledge).”

Al-Sadooq, Ma'aanee Al-Akhbaar, pg. 22
Al-Majlisi, Bihaar Al-Anwaar, vol. 89, ch. 127, pg. 373, hadeeth # 1

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#64

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:06 pm

Dear Bro, Khadhim,

Thank you for giving me that explanation. Had it not being for a couple of things which I will point out in this post, this hadith might even have been believable.

I am not sure if you are from India or not, but for those of us who are, we will remember the epic show Mahabharata that ran on Indian television in the late 80s. This show was created by a famous movie maker B.R. Chopra. The show is about many things but it also tells us some stories about the hindu God Krishna. One such story is that (and I do not remember the finer details) Krishna is pulled into a mess where 16,000 (yes you read that right - 16 thousand) women are kidnapped by a demon. After they are saved, no one will marry them. So Krishna takes it upon himself to marry them all. He declares that no one shall know that it was he who married them. When I saw this episode unfolding, I was pretty amazed. I asked my family - we all used to watch it together back then, if no one was supposed to know, then how the hell did B.R. Chopra find out?

If you take these small things into consideration, it will present to you a big difference between what is plausible and what is a fairy tale.
Consider the hadith that you have posted
The Imaam replied, “O’ Son of Sa`id! Certainly if you had not been a person who was worthy of replying, then I would not have replied to you.
The Imam, in effect, is putting his answer down in writing for all mankind and yet he is telling Sufyaan that he wouldn'tve told him if he wasn't worthy. Well, does that make us all worthy of this knowledge?

Then the second point
The Imam then said to me, “Get up O’ Sufyaan since there is no security for you (since I have conveyed to you this hidden knowledge).”
Well, now that Sufyaan knows, he is in trouble. He just lost his security. Am I (I as in anajmi) in trouble too? You just revealed this hidden knowledge to me. What happens to me now?

Muslim First
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#65

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:51 pm

Explain to me the command of the Law and the Pen and the Pencil - a complete explanation - and teach me that which Allah has taught you!”
Br anajmi
Please stop questioning this Shia Ahadiths. Please realize that Shia believe that Allah was talking to their Imams.
So imams were higher then Prophets.

In fact this is part of post where Ismaili.net's owner/Administer talks about late author Corbin
When I first met him (Corbin)at the Sorbonne he was talking of the Imam saying that for an Ismaili, to declare that Ali was Allah, would be a nonsense, indeed, he said, to say Ali is Allah is to degrade Ali, he said Ali is Higher!
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15
Khadim is ignoring me. He can shut us off by just positing one or two Ayas from Quran like this:
"After you O Prophet 12 imams will be guide"

Wasalaam

alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#66

Unread post by alwan » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:'The benefit of the Imam in ghayba is like the example of the clouds covering the sun.' We still get benefit, but we don't see it.
Forgive for my simple questions as I am not much into theology.

What are the functions of Imam of the Time and how does he performs them ?

Khadhim Al Mahdi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#67

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:19 pm

anajmi wrote:Dear Bro, Khadhim,

Thank you for giving me that explanation. Had it not being for a couple of things which I will point out in this post, this hadith might even have been believable.

I am not sure if you are from India or not, but for those of us who are, we will remember the epic show Mahabharata that ran on Indian television in the late 80s. This show was created by a famous movie maker B.R. Chopra. The show is about many things but it also tells us some stories about the hindu God Krishna. One such story is that (and I do not remember the finer details) Krishna is pulled into a mess where 16,000 (yes you read that right - 16 thousand) women are kidnapped by a demon. After they are saved, no one will marry them. So Krishna takes it upon himself to marry them all. He declares that no one shall know that it was he who married them. When I saw this episode unfolding, I was pretty amazed. I asked my family - we all used to watch it together back then, if no one was supposed to know, then how the hell did B.R. Chopra find out?

If you take these small things into consideration, it will present to you a big difference between what is plausible and what is a fairy tale.
Consider the hadith that you have posted
The Imaam replied, “O’ Son of Sa`id! Certainly if you had not been a person who was worthy of replying, then I would not have replied to you.
The Imam, in effect, is putting his answer down in writing for all mankind and yet he is telling Sufyaan that he wouldn'tve told him if he wasn't worthy. Well, does that make us all worthy of this knowledge?

Then the second point
The Imam then said to me, “Get up O’ Sufyaan since there is no security for you (since I have conveyed to you this hidden knowledge).”
er
Well, now that Sufyaan knows, he is in trouble. He just lost his security. Am I (I as in anajmi) in trouble too? You just revealed this hidden knowledge to me. What happens to me now?


Well, the Imam certain gave him the knowledge because he knew that he'd be able to comprehend it, but how worthy are we? Well that would depend upon how sincere a person is & his level of insight; so an ordinary Muslim who sins alot may not be worthy as they would not understand the deepness in the first place. But lets consider the implications. Even if he hadn't told Sufyan then he may have said it later at some other point or another Imam later on because the Ahlulbayt [as] don't leave us puzzled in these matters.

I think you misunderstood the second point because obviously the Imam [as] told him the hidden knowledge, but the fact that sufyan had this 'Ilm may have made him prone to the caliphate or threaten to kill him if he was disseminating the knowledge as he was one of As-Sadiq's [as] student.

Now, how would you go abouts getting the meaning of those verses if you are following the sahaba? You admitted that they didn't or didn't transmit anything from the Prophet [saww] so where would that leave you? Because then on that basis you would be interpreting according to your own interpretation which is haram isn't it?

You also ignored my invitation for a discussion/dialogue on a public basis such as facebook; either yourself, a friend or a shaykh and I will also get someone likewise.

Khadhim Al Mahdi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#68

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:17 pm

alwan wrote:
Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:'The benefit of the Imam in ghayba is like the example of the clouds covering the sun.' We still get benefit, but we don't see it.
Forgive for my simple questions as I am not much into theology.

What are the functions of Imam of the Time and how does he performs them ?
No worries brother, we are all learning inshallah. May I recommend you this particular work done by a brother; it's short yet concise & i think it provides a good summary on things. Read the preliminaries first though.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam

Hope that helps =)

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#69

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:26 pm

Dear Bro. Khadhim,
Now, how would you go abouts getting the meaning of those verses if you are following the sahaba?
All I had to do was ask you. You gave that knowledge to me right? I looked at it and decided that it doesn't have much merit. Maybe that is why the sahaba chose not to share it.
I think you misunderstood the second point because obviously the Imam [as] told him the hidden knowledge, but the fact that sufyan had this 'Ilm may have made him prone to the caliphate or threaten to kill him if he was disseminating the knowledge as he was one of As-Sadiq's [as] student.
Now you are spinning a tangled web. There is nothing in that story to get anyone killed. The Imam is not telling him that he will be in danger if he disseminates that knowledge. The Imam is telling him that he is in danger just because he now has that knowledge.

alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#70

Unread post by alwan » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:29 pm

Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:
alwan wrote: Forgive for my simple questions as I am not much into theology.

What are the functions of Imam of the Time and how does he performs them ?
No worries brother, we are all learning inshallah. May I recommend you this particular work done by a brother; it's short yet concise & i think it provides a good summary on things. Read the preliminaries first though.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam

Hope that helps =)
I don't think that will help :)

Actually, i was wondering why din't Ali, Hassan, Husein, Zainul Abidin and rest of 11 Imams didn't go into occultation and gave Guidance from there.

so 12 th Imam's function must be different from his 11 predecessors or God must have decided to complete His Guidance and 12 th Imam is the seal of the Imamate.

That is why i asked the functions of Imam of the Time and how are they performed.

Muslim First
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#71

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:42 pm

Alwan
Actually, i was wondering why din't Ali, Hassan, Husein, Zainul Abidin and rest of 11 Imams didn't go into occultation and gave Guidance from there.
Right on brother;
Bohra Imams are in occultation for last 1000 years and never fail to give guidance about which Kharas and Mithas to serve in Jamans.

alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#72

Unread post by alwan » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:17 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Alwan
Actually, i was wondering why din't Ali, Hassan, Husein, Zainul Abidin and rest of 11 Imams didn't go into occultation and gave Guidance from there.
Right on brother;
Bohra Imams are in occultation for last 1000 years and never fail to give guidance about which Kharas and Mithas to serve in Jamans.


I think bohra believe Imam of the Time is in hiding from danger.

When the danger is no longer there, he will come out in open.

But he is present and performing his functions like giving guidance through selected deputies.

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#73

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:23 am

Actually, I believe that to be pretty ludicrous. The Imam is in hiding from danger. But he has left a 103 year old man in his place. Who do you think is actually stronger to withstand the enemy? The Imam or the Dai? If the Dai can survive the danger, why can't the Imam? Infact, the Dai has made his life pretty luxurious wouldn't you say? If the Imam were to arrive right now, all bohras will be jumping over each other to kiss his feet. And he will have a pretty good life. He could pass the rest of his days living like a king. Just like the Dai is doing right now.

Actually, the Imam is probably hiding from the Dai!!

alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#74

Unread post by alwan » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:47 am

anajmi wrote:Actually, I believe that to be pretty ludicrous. The Imam is in hiding from danger. But he has left a 103 year old man in his place. Who do you think is actually stronger to withstand the enemy? The Imam or the Dai? If the Dai can survive the danger, why can't the Imam? Infact, the Dai has made his life pretty luxurious wouldn't you say? If the Imam were to arrive right now, all bohras will be jumping over each other to kiss his feet. And he will have a pretty good life. He could pass the rest of his days living like a king. Just like the Dai is doing right now.

Actually, the Imam is probably hiding from the Dai!!
Maybe the enemies want the blood of the Imam of the Time (the top man) and are not interested in his Dai (the deputy).

Anyways, the point was that the claim of bohoras that they are receiving guidance from the "concealed" physically present Imam of the Time through Dai is at least possible compared to Twelvers claim of guidance from occulted Imam.

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#75

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:34 pm

Maybe the enemies want the blood of the Imam of the Time (the top man) and are not interested in his Dai (the deputy).
And the enemies have been waiting for centuries through the time of 53 Dais to get to the Imam? Don't the enemies know that the Dai talks to the Imam? Wouldn't they at least think about getting to the Imam through the Dai? Grab a hold of the Dai and force him to spill the beans on the Imam. If these enemies of the Imam are this stupid, I would've come out of hiding centuries ago.
Anyways, the point was that the claim of bohoras that they are receiving guidance from the "concealed" physically present Imam of the Time through Dai is at least possible compared to Twelvers claim of guidance from occulted Imam.
Both are fairy tales. Just as much possible as each other.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#76

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:38 pm

alwan wrote:the point was that the claim of bohoras that they are receiving guidance from the "concealed" physically present Imam of the Time through Dai is at least possible
Who is receiving guidance ?? The corrupt Dai for whom religion is nothing but business !! He has flouted almost all the tenets of Islam and is busy collecting money left, right and centre in the guise of Islam !! How can an Imam from the progeny of Ahle Bayt ever engage himself with someone whose life is diametrically opposite to Ahle Bayts ??

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#77

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:31 am

Do you think the Imam of the time guides Muffi.. I mean look at the way he speaks and orders like we are bunch of slaves (which actually most of bohris believe it). I dont think that the current Imam of the Time who is from the Bloodline of Ali and Fatema would help such a person to run a different religion by using all the wealth he could collect.

alwan
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#78

Unread post by alwan » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:44 am

silvertongue wrote:Do you think the Imam of the time guides Muffi.. I mean look at the way he speaks and orders like we are bunch of slaves (which actually most of bohris believe it). I dont think that the current Imam of the Time who is from the Bloodline of Ali and Fatema would help such a person to run a different religion by using all the wealth he could collect.
so tell me how will you recognize Imam of the Time when he becomes "Zahir"

I mean supposing a Sayyid comes and claims that he is the "Imam", will you accept him as your Imam ? or will you have test him and if yes then how ?

and supposing the present Dai claims to be the Imam and he was practising taqiyya to avoid external threat and now his community is more organised and secure so he has come out in open to declare it. Will you accept him as your Imam ?

Lets take another scenario, the present Dai brings a person and declares him as Imam. Will you accept him as your Imam ?

What is the standard bohra stand regarding how to recognize/accept the Imam once he "appears" ?

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#79

Unread post by silvertongue » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:38 am

I mean supposing a Sayyid comes and claims that he is the "Imam", will you accept him as your Imam ? or will you have test him and if yes then how ?
Good Question. But there are many signs and Hadiths related to the recognition. For eg. his name will be the same as Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) and he will be able to show Mojeza.. Not like the Tales of Dais but real ones like the Imams. So Yes it will be definitely easy. And note this that the Prophet Mohammed also said that he will unite the muslims. So there wont be any sunni or shia later.. Just muslims following one true Imam. Either be a hanafi, Maleki, bohri or Aga khani... It wont matter then.

Muslim First
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#80

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:05 pm

silvertongue wrote:
I mean supposing a Sayyid comes and claims that he is the "Imam", will you accept him as your Imam ? or will you have test him and if yes then how ?
Good Question. But there are many signs and Hadiths related to the recognition. For eg. his name will be the same as Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) and he will be able to show Mojeza.. Not like the Tales of Dais but real ones like the Imams. So Yes it will be definitely easy. And note this that the Prophet Mohammed also said that he will unite the muslims. So there wont be any sunni or shia later.. Just muslims following one true Imam. Either be a hanafi, Maleki, bohri or Aga khani... It wont matter then.
Can you post Mojeza by Ali RA, Hassan RA, Hussein. RA etc on on and on!

If they were true Naas appointed and Allah approved Imams, Allah would have created Mojezas for them.

Example
Hazir Imam pretender Karim Aga Khan.

Why didn't he know his horse was going to be Kidnapped IRA?
What about his Two divorces?
Is he really son of Ali Aga khan? Would he permit comparison of his DNA to his younger brother?

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#81

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:24 am

I am not an Aga Khani so I cannot comments on it. And I dont feel to comment on anything of which I have least knowledge. And If you are asking me about Mojeza of Maula Ali (A.S) (Refer to how Nusairis came into existance)...

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:45 am

Are you saying that it is the mojeza of Ali that is to blame for the creation of Nusairis? Basically, if Ali hadn't performed that Mojeza, we wouldn't have a deviant sect right?

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#83

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:08 am

anajmi wrote:Are you saying that it is the mojeza of Ali that is to blame for the creation of Nusairis? Basically, if Ali hadn't performed that Mojeza, we wouldn't have a deviant sect right?
Ali didnt created Nusairis.. They were stupid people to believe that Ali was God. Rather Ali showed that he was the true Wali of Allah. And Mojezas are signs from Allah to recognize that Allah has made a Caliph on earth.

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#84

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:22 am

Rather Ali showed that he was the true Wali of Allah.
How? Which mojeza of his showed that he is the Wali of Allah or Caliph of Allah? What Mojeza did the stupid Nusairis see and mistake him for God?

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#85

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:15 am

For e.g. He payed Zakat while in Ruku while he was praying Namaz. And Quran speaks about this in open (5:55).. And obviously as you are questioning this, even though the Quran is right, you wont believe it...

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#86

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:23 am

Do you even know what a mojeza is?

What you are describing is not a mojeza. Even I can give zakat while in ruku. I just have never needed to, cause the guy waiting for my zakat can normally wait for me to finish my salah.

silvertongue
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#87

Unread post by silvertongue » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:01 am

Take care buddy.. Your heart is sealed. You cant even understand a simple thing.. Or ur just trying not to.. Closing this debate now..

anajmi
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#88

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:37 pm

Your heart is sealed.
Yeah. Thanks for reminding me again. Now, can we get back to the mojeza that declared Ali is the Wali of Allah and the mojeza that made the stupid Nusairis mistake him for God? We have obviously clarified that giving zakat while in ruku is not a mojeza.

Muslim First
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#89

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:10 pm

anajmi wrote:
Your heart is sealed.
Yeah. Thanks for reminding me again. Now, can we get back to the mojeza that declared Ali is the Wali of Allah and the mojeza that made the stupid Nusairis mistake him for God? We have obviously clarified that giving zakat while in ruku is not a mojeza.
Br anajmi
AS
Interesting comments from Shia POV by Pooya/MA Ali
read here
http://quran.al-islam.org/

Muslim First
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Re: Answering The Zaydiyyah/Ismaili Sects

#90

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:16 pm

stupid Nusairis mistake him for God?
Why Nusairies?
Go to Ismaili.net and you will find many posters including Admin/owner of the site believing that Ali is Allah

Here is one latest sample;
By Nuseri
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:25 pm

BAHUT PADA AUR 'ALI' KO SHAMJA.

AUR KHUB ILM SE 'ALI' KO PECHANA.

AGAR USKI ZIKR NAHI KARI

AUR US PEE ISHQ NAHI JATAYA.

TO KYA JIYAA AUR KYA MAARA.