Bank job

[simple]

In dahod every tom dick and herry know that order to boycott bank and bank employee was ordered by muffadal muala when he visited town few months back.
when asked about it amil of dahod denied this charge .what a hypocrite he is !!!

[incredible]

this is the problem with bohras, nothing is written and when ever they want they can just deny and run out clean from mess.

[incredible]

was this farmaan for just mercantile bank or all other bank?

and if it is for all other bank then how bohras will continue their economical transaction which is always involve with bank and cheques ?

how will people in western world deal with day to day needs which is always involved with banks?

[ghulam muhammed]

This case looks similar to the Bombay Mercantile Co-op Bank case wherein bohras at that time were instructed to close their accounts and the bohra employees too were forced to resign. There seems to be much more then just a routine fatwa by Muffy because he has specifically targeted this particular Dahod Mercantile Co-op Bank only which is clear from the news clipping given by Bro.simple............ It clearly states that Karze-Hasanah EMI cheques should not be drawn on this particular bank only. It further instructs bohra employees to resign from this bank, if the problem was with interest money and bank alone then why are Bohras of this particular bank targeted ?? Why a fatwa is not issued against other nationalised, private or foreign banks ??? Why are Karze-Hasanah cheques drawn on other banks accepted by kothar ??

It doesn't require rocket science to figure out that Muffy has some personal issues to settle with Dahod mercantile co-op bank for which he is using veto power to pressurise bohras who are the bank's major clients !! It is nothing but some conspiracy hatched by Muffy and gang.

[Bohra spring]

I challenge Kothar operate in a self practised 100% bank free life???they should absolutely live without any product touched by RIBA....as we try with pig products or alcohol, absolutely no contamination

They are doctorates ...so they know what I mean...

And their abdes who visit this site can demonstrate how they are living that pure life...no RIBA, insurance or any by products of banking services in their lives

If they show by self , I may join their approach

[ghulam muhammed]

I challenge Kothar operate in a self practised 100% bank free life???they should absolutely live without any product touched by RIBA....as we try with pig products or alcohol, absolutely no contamination

The Dai, the Mansoos, the zaadas, the zaadis, qasre alis etc etc. all have fat bank accounts mostly in foreign banks. Moreover the Dai himself has rented out various properties to banks in Surat and other cities, he has even rented out properties to various Liquor shops in his bldg., Glamour, Colaba, Mumbai. Hence their patented dialogue "Hame je kahiye e karo, hame je kariye e na karo"............ Hypocrites of the highest order !!!

[incredible]

salary of jamiya ustaads and all amils also involves banking system, by cheques.

[Maqbool]

There is some thing cooking. As they have started collecting karden hasana from bohras and targets to collect 1000 crores, They are planning to close down the existing all karden hasanah scheme and re start from this collected fund.

I think they are planning to start their own bank which will be operated by the smart card within the community. the all payments regarding karden hasanah and other like sabil,salam vajebat etc. This way they can control complete financial aspect of individual bohras and can loot more.

This is the beginning and a test ground. They will start other places once they succeed. The Dahod people should resists this dadagiri and save the community.

[humanbeing]

Maqbool

A well thought possibility you have expressed. There is a likely chance that Kothar may start their own bank with some fancy lisaan-e-daawat name and would ask abdes to deposit their savings. Devrees and Jamaat offices may become the transaction branches.

Kothar may be devising a mouth watering plan to collect all the savings from abdes and regulate their expenses and incomes. A communist style governance within the community.

Millions can be at disposable of kothar. A hapless abde cannot negotiate, kothar would know in-outs of his financial conditions. It would also help kothar know the rich and wealthy amongst the community at more deeper level. They would use all possible means of flatter, temptation or threat to make the rich get in the line.

Rich and smart businessmen may take advantage of the system. They can assure plum returns to kothar royals by getting fat capitals donated into their businesses. It would be mutual plunder of middle class tax payers contributions.


while poor may be ignored totally. As they are the invisible non existent lot. Their bank balances are of no interest to kothar. Whereas they can be wooed with some petty ehsaan and karam by giving away some ‘muwasat rakam’ and thaali service.


With ambitious involvement of kothar into real estate developments across the world. They need plum fundings and they are tightening the noose and creating more secured and assured sources of income.

Kothar is turning into an illegitimate invisible government within the countries.

[HMALAK]

The Employees of the Dahod Mercantile Cooperative Bank have also filed a complain with the Human Rights Commission because of the threat posed by the Local Jamaat. The People are strictly advised not to Invite the Bank Employees in any of the Social Gatherings. The wives of the Bank Employees are stopped from Participating in the Chehlum Majlises which are held for Ladies. The Bank Employees are been threatened saying You will be Outcasted if you do not leave the job.
Now the Question lies here is Where should the Employees go after leaving the job. They have a family to look after. Either they must be given a Similar job or they must get Support of the community for Building their Own Business.. But here, the Answer is NO. They would not help you in any ways. You have to Either Leave the Job or Leave the Community..
Now this is high Time for all this Bank Employees and Meanwhile the Local Aamir has also turned out giving a reason that Nothing is Proved in Writing which makes the Job of the Employees to Fight for their rights more Difficult. May God Bless All....

[ghulam muhammed]

I remember the atrocities committed on Bombay Mercantile Bank employees when the 52nd Dai had issued a fatwa in the same manner as in this case. I recollect how a physically handicapped bohra employee who could barely walk without crutches was publicly beaten up near Raudat Tahera by Kothari goons and the hundreds of bohras gathered there were just mute spectators, no one had the balls to stop the goons from beating this poor man. Even the then chairman of the bank, Mr.Huseini Doctor was excommunicated and kothar refused to perform the nikah of his children. His wife was in such a mental shock that she had to be hospitalised.

These Kothari mafias instruct bohra employees to resign but who will look after their families ? Will Muffy's gang foot the grocery bills, the rent, children's education etc. At the most they will offer them 'Dabba' which too will not be for free !! What kothar is doing is very much against the law and it would be great if someone did a sting operation on these goons and make the tape public.

[suleman]

My Dear Fellow Members

http://www.alvazarat.org/1435/3rd_mohar ... iyaj-2.mp3

Please listen this lecture and send your comments what Mufaddal Saheb is doing
Mufaddal Saheb is a non believer as he himself enjoying interest
He is eating Ziyafat of Haraam earnings by all Harami Rich
Does he asks from where did you get it when he has receiving Salaam and Vajebaat?
He is collecting Sood income as Rent of Banks from his Trust property in India, Pakistan and in other parts of the world.
He has invested his huge money with Hindus and Jews in interest business

[alam]

Qardan Hasanaat micro loans are given out to mumineen in the form of checks or demands drafts.

While at the same time people are encouraged or required (depending on localities) to contribute to Qardan hasanaat by cash.

most people don't even have a check book - so they dole their petty cash each week - thus create the habit of giving to the Establishment.

Most may receive a micro loan for their business (I have several cases I have witnessed and seen the the checks where ordinary abdes abdes have benefited from Qardan Hasanaat Scheeme). But thats possible only against a collateral such as gold bangles etc as a guarantee.

COME ON, MUFADDDAL MAULA, GET HONEST - get real, but most of all, get Smart. Stop threatening your loyal followers with punishment of social boycott if they don't leave their bank jobs. How Would you run the Qardanhasanah Scheme With demand drafts. Help the mumineens for their small business with cash.

[S. Insaf]

It was expected that Mufaddal would learn from the mistakes that his father committed!
They are worst than mafias because they torture innocent people to get a place vacant with which these innocent have no connection.
Justice Nathwani Inquiry Commission made its report public in 1988. Findings of the Justice Nathwani Inquiry Commission were shocking. Hence the Syedna Burhanuddin was criticized and condemned world over.
To keep Bohras busy and away from the findings of the commission report and its reaction, he took them to Cairo for his Moharram sermons. For the first time in the Dawoodi Bohra history local sermons were banned.
After that he launched an all out agitation against Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank ordering its Bohra account holders and employees to leave the bank. BMC challenged (Suit No. 797 of 1982, Bombay High Court) him in the law-court and Anjuman-e-Shiat-Ali on his behalf had publicly assured that Syedna had withdrawn his Directive and Bohras in future will not be harassed on this account.
The cluster redevelopment of Bhindi Bazar has become a sore throat for Syedna. Qaid Joher had claimed that the redevelopment will be done by 2014, but it is not started though we have reached at tail-end of 2014. The entire project is being marred by scams and frauds.
In 2009, at the start of the project, it was claimed that the 85% tenants in the area are Dawoodi Bohras and they are loyal to the Syedna. Therefore getting consent and vacating of 85% tenants is foregone conclusion. But more than three years have passed but vacating all of them has proved couo de grace.
So now they have started mafia tactic. But They are worst than mafias because they torture innocent people to get a place vacant with which these innocent have no connection.
They have demolished the top floor of a building but in the ground there is a Bhindi bazar branch of Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, which is not vacating the space. It is a matter between BMC and the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust (SBUT). Why are they pressing the Dawoodi Bohra account holders and employees of the Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, to close their accounts and leave their services?
Indian Express Ahmedabad Edition dated on 12, Dec.2013 has reported that the Dahod brach of the Bank has over 80% of its customers are Dawoodi Bohras. They are pressurized to close their accounts with Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, Dahod branch, on the grounds that any activity that involved interest money was not approved by their religion. Bohras have also been asked, not use Cheques from the bank, which are to be deposited in advance as guarantee for Karz-e-Has-san. Also, 27 Bohra employees working in the bank, have being asked to resign from their jobs.
The employees who have refused to quit jobs are being discriminated at the time of social occasion, and during the holy Haj yatra, Umrah and other Ziyarat yatra. The followers of the Preceptor Aamil (local representative of Syedna) are inflicting mental torture on the employees. They were boycotted along with family members by other members of the community during Jamaat Khana (mass feast) on the day of Muharram because they have refused to resign. We are not invited in marriage ceremonies because the public is frightened of the authority of the Aamil.
As usual Shaikh Khuzema Bombaywala, Aamil of Anjumani Mohhamadi Jamat Committee, denied that there was no proof that such an instruction was passed from their side.
There is no document proof that says that we have asked community members to withdraw bank accounts, "he said.

[simple]

In dahod Now janab and his goons tell everyone who are planning for jaman not to invite anyone working at bank . They threaten them to face consequences if any one working in bank found to be In jaman.

[simple]

In dahod Now janab and his goons tell everyone who are planning for jaman not to invite anyone working at bank . They threaten them to face consequences if any bank employees found to be In jaman.

[Qutbi-Hero]

It was expected that Mufaddal would learn from the mistakes that his father committed!
They are worst than mafias because they torture innocent people to get a place vacant with which these innocent have no connection.
Justice Nathwani Inquiry Commission made its report public in 1988. Findings of the Justice Nathwani Inquiry Commission were shocking. Hence the Syedna Burhanuddin was criticized and condemned world over.
To keep Bohras busy and away from the findings of the commission report and its reaction, he took them to Cairo for his Moharram sermons. For the first time in the Dawoodi Bohra history local sermons were banned.
After that he launched an all out agitation against Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank ordering its Bohra account holders and employees to leave the bank. BMC challenged (Suit No. 797 of 1982, Bombay High Court) him in the law-court and Anjuman-e-Shiat-Ali on his behalf had publicly assured that Syedna had withdrawn his Directive and Bohras in future will not be harassed on this account.
The cluster redevelopment of Bhindi Bazar has become a sore throat for Syedna. Qaid Joher had claimed that the redevelopment will be done by 2014, but it is not started though we have reached at tail-end of 2014. The entire project is being marred by scams and frauds.
In 2009, at the start of the project, it was claimed that the 85% tenants in the area are Dawoodi Bohras and they are loyal to the Syedna. Therefore getting consent and vacating of 85% tenants is foregone conclusion. But more than three years have passed but vacating all of them has proved couo de grace.
So now they have started mafia tactic. But They are worst than mafias because they torture innocent people to get a place vacant with which these innocent have no connection.
They have demolished the top floor of a building but in the ground there is a Bhindi bazar branch of Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, which is not vacating the space. It is a matter between BMC and the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust (SBUT). Why are they pressing the Dawoodi Bohra account holders and employees of the Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, to close their accounts and leave their services?
Indian Express Ahmedabad Edition dated on 12, Dec.2013 has reported that the Dahod brach of the Bank has over 80% of its customers are Dawoodi Bohras. They are pressurized to close their accounts with Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank, Dahod branch, on the grounds that any activity that involved interest money was not approved by their religion. Bohras have also been asked, not use Cheques from the bank, which are to be deposited in advance as guarantee for Karz-e-Has-san. Also, 27 Bohra employees working in the bank, have being asked to resign from their jobs.
The employees who have refused to quit jobs are being discriminated at the time of social occasion, and during the holy Haj yatra, Umrah and other Ziyarat yatra. The followers of the Preceptor Aamil (local representative of Syedna) are inflicting mental torture on the employees. They were boycotted along with family members by other members of the community during Jamaat Khana (mass feast) on the day of Muharram because they have refused to resign. We are not invited in marriage ceremonies because the public is frightened of the authority of the Aamil.
As usual Shaikh Khuzema Bombaywala, Aamil of Anjumani Mohhamadi Jamat Committee, denied that there was no proof that such an instruction was passed from their side.
There is no document proof that says that we have asked community members to withdraw bank accounts, "he said.

Mr Engineer had shoes that are going to be very hard to fill, Mr Insaf... so you really must try to be more articulate when posting here. You now represent the "leadership" of the Reform Movement so it is imperative that you portray an intelligent and professional image.

Unfortunately, this post, like most of what you write, reads like it was dictated by a 10 year old. This does not help anyone, indeed it makes us look like foolish amateurs who lack even the most basic necessities. I don't mean to criticise you brother, I hope to encourage you to represent the RM in the best way possible, to be as successful and respected as your predecessor.

Take the extra time and make the extra effort Mr Insaf, in the meantime, may I suggest you contact AZ to proof-read your announcements and re-word them in a more eloquent and impressive manner, without any unnecessary exaggeration or manipulation of the facts. Please also spend much more time on this forum, and engage with the rest of the community on a weekly, if not daily basis.

[Truth_Seeker]

Bro DB-L,
I reckon from your posts on the forum that you are not very happy with the way the reform movement is going. However it makes no sense at all just finger pointing and calling names to the forum members who dont necessarily align with your ideologies. By all means you can criticize ideas and provide suggestions - but following some basic decorum and not calling names. A perfect example would be your response to Bro S. Insaf's post above - I dont see anything wrong in that - the message that he wanted to convey has been conveyed. I am sure you are not here to pinpoint grammatic and semantic errors in the posts.

Trust me brother when you do that, it gives a feeling that you are anti-reforms completely and just here to malign the reform movement and this site. I believe that is not the case entirely because I see from some of your comments that you want reforms in the current Dawat establishment as well, albeit in a more aggressive manner. So my suggestion is this - why not divert your energies and channel it in a manner to synergise with the existing Reform movement? I see you have some good suggestions to offer, particularly the Human Resources suggestion that you posted. It wouldnt hurt to mellow down a bit and work on something more constructive than to bad-mouth the Reformist movement for not achieving much since last many years, etc etc.

And before you accuse me of anything, let me clarify that I am not a Reformist, but not a blind following abde as well. I know there are wrongs in the community which need to be rectified and dont approve entirely of the manner in which the faith has been hijacked by the last 2 Dai's to suit their own worldly motives.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Bro DB-L,
I reckon from your posts on the forum that you are not very happy with the way the reform movement is going.

Really? Whatever gave you that idea dude lol!
Tell me honestly TS, are you happy, or unhappy, with the lack of any "movement" in the Reform Movement so far?

However it makes no sense at all just finger pointing and calling names to the forum members who dont necessarily align with your ideologies.

I agree with you bro. However you do realise that this is all you guys do to DBs here, right?

By all means you can criticize ideas and provide suggestions - but following some basic decorum and not calling names. A perfect example would be your response to Bro S. Insaf's post above

I call Sunni Snakes who don't belong here names all day long - but please show me where I called Mr Insaf any names in the post above. If you want to make a point, do it honestly, why do you stoop to the level of lying bro?

I dont see anything wrong in that - the message that he wanted to convey has been conveyed. I am sure you are not here to pinpoint grammatic and semantic errors in the posts.

Once again you are being dishonest. What I said was Mr Insaf needs to follow in the footsteps of Mr Engineer, which means elevating his level of communication to a much higher level which would earn him a lot more respect, not just from DBs but the entire Muslim Ummah and the world at large. Why are you against this?
I also requested that he engage far more with people, as the man rarely shows his face around here. We hear more from the Anti-Shias than we do from him! Are you happy about that?

Trust me brother when you do that, it gives a feeling that you are anti-reforms completely and just here to malign the reform movement and this site.

No my friend, I am not an Ugly Sunni!

I believe that is not the case entirely because I see from some of your comments that you want reforms in the current Dawat establishment as well, albeit in a more aggressive manner.

There is nothing happening at all right now, whether aggressive or non-aggressive. This must be rectified, don't you think bro?

So my suggestion is this - why not divert your energies and channel it in a manner to synergise with the existing Reform movement?

My friend, I am very curious, please do elaborate on these Reform Movement synergies...

I see you have some good suggestions to offer, particularly the Human Resources suggestion that you posted.

Excellent. So why haven't you replied to that thread yourself bro? Why haven't most people here? Please do explain that to me in detail my friend...

It wouldnt hurt to mellow down a bit and work on something more constructive than to bad-mouth the Reformist movement for not achieving much since last many years, etc etc.

Firstly, I'm glad you are brave enough to admit there has been a major lack of achievement for years and years now.
Secondly, I'm not bad-mouthing, I am telling you guys the reasons why there has been no achievement for so long.
Thirdly, the reason I'm doing this is to encourage a change in this situation.
Things must improve if they are to progress - or do you disagree?

And before you accuse me of anything, let me clarify that I am not a Reformist, but not a blind following abde as well. I know there are wrongs in the community which need to be rectified and dont approve entirely of the manner in which the faith has been hijacked by the last 2 Dai's to suit their own worldly motives.

I'm exactly the same as you dude, as are most DBs...

[Truth_Seeker]

Brother DB-L,

Let me clarify few things here:
1. As mentioned earlier, I am not a Reformist and hence I am not making any official statements on behalf of the Reformist group. So when I say that you should synergise with the Reformist movement, it is my personal opinion only and please dont treat this as something coming from the Reformist camp.

2. I am not at all admitting that there has been major lack of achievement for years and years now in the Reform movement. My personal view is that whatever has been achieved till date is good - particularly talking about this forum which has exposed the evil doings of Kothar to many, including myself. I admit that there is still quite a lot to change, but the very first step for any reform is the acknowledgement of the fact that something is wrong and has to be corrected, which is precisely what this forum is doing to an extent. Dont go by the no. of posters that you have here my friend - I am sure there are many passive readers who read the forum regularly but dont actively participate in debates. Taking my example, I was a passive reader since last 4 years, before I decided to start participating in discussions - I have a long way to go I must admit. However this forum has definitely helped me acknowledge the change that is required in the current Bohra affairs by exposing the evil doings of the Kothar. It has helped me get closer to the true Islam - I have started reading the Quran with translation and ALHAMDO LILLAH, I am changed man now, and can identify the right from the wrong.

I agree with you brother that we need to progress from here, however i wouldnt dismiss everything that has been done till date as totally useless. Please bear in mind that the reformists are not doing reforms for a living - they have their families to take care of, they still have distant relatives who are still in the Abde fold. Remember this is a religious movement, and not a political one. And the opponent is the mighty Kothar which has millions of rupees at their disposal and the blind faith of an entire community which they have taken hostage. The reformist dont have (to my knowledge) a sponsor who would fund their movement, neither can they devote their entire lives just for the reforms, unlike the Kothar for which everything would be at stake if they are toppled.

So, in my opinion, what the reformist have done in their capacity is spreading awareness amongst the disillusioned Bohras and exposing the Kothar through this forum, and as per me, they have done a splendid job at it. Again, dont thnk that I am getting complacent here bro - there is still much that can and needs to be done. However we must give credit where it is due!

Now coming to your point where you said you are not calling names and particularly about Mr. Insaf - did you not write that his post looks like it has been dictated by a 10 year old, and that it makes them look like foolish and amateurs? I understand that Mr. Insaf is quite an aged man now, and for someone of his age, you dont need to necessarily get into the grammtics and semantics of the language, dont you think so bro? To me what he conveyed in his post was good enough for me to understand the message, and I am sure you got his point as well - so where was the need to criticize him for his language?

Your suggestion on Mr.Insaf getting more engaged on the forum is well taken and appreciated, and personally I would want to see him more often on this forum as well to share his knowledge.

Now, lastly, why havent I replied to your Human Resources post, because honestly brother - and no offence meant here - I am not entirely sure which side your loyalties lie and what is your intention of getting the information. Do you have an action plan of what you want to do with that information on humar resources? Just telling people what they can do being in a particular profession or region doesnt help. We all know what profession we are into and what we can do with that - but the reason no one has done anything is because of the fear of the mighty Kothar and the fear of Baraat. Do you have any action plan for that? If yes, please do post it and you would see more responses to your post I am sure.

[SBM]

Br Tuth Seeks
Mashalla very good and sensible post
Just a word about Br Saif Insaaf
He used to be very active but his is aged and is does not keep very good health so it is difficult for him to post here on regular basis. ( Br Insaf is regular reader of this forum and Inshallaha he can speak for himself about his lack of participation)

[Truth_Seeker]

Brother SBM,

Thanks!

I have been reading Bro S. Insaf's post regularly and I know that he used to be quite active earlier, and not able to post here on a regular basis now. In my opinion, he has done the best he could in his capacity by exposing many scams conducted by Kothar along with proofs, as most of the Abdes demanded. May ALLAH grant him good health!

[Humsafar]

Excellent post Truth Seeker. Very sensible and thoughtful. It's awakened people like you who take a balanced view of things will make a real change. More power to you.
About Insaf Saheb, I'm glad you had the guts to defend him. Running him down for his lack of proficiency in English was mean and could only come from people who are insecure and petty. Insaf Saheb has courage of conviction which even seven generations of his detractors will be hard pressed to muster. If people knew about his background, and what a long way he has come they would think twice before making snotty comments about him. He is an accomplished Urdu writer and poet and his works are published in many literary journals. English is not his first language. That he can communicate in English with such felicity is quite a feat in itself. If his detractors were asked to do the same in Urdu they would fail miserably. It's sad that this colonial mentality still persists, being good in English does not automatically make you into a superior breed.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Brother DB-L,

Let me clarify few things here:
1. As mentioned earlier, I am not a Reformist and hence I am not making any official statements on behalf of the Reformist group. So when I say that you should synergise with the Reformist movement, it is my personal opinion only and please dont treat this as something coming from the Reformist camp.

Everybody fully appreciates that there has to be synergy between the camps - the question is... exactly what action are we going to synergise with? Outside of Udaipur, there is no real non-online action taking place that I can see - other than Apostasy of course lol!

2. I am not at all admitting that there has been major lack of achievement for years and years now in the Reform movement.

Please do express what evidence of progress you have seen recently bro.

My personal view is that whatever has been achieved till date is good

Indeed, but things have now crawled to a standstill - there is no Movement in the Reform Movement!

particularly talking about this forum which has exposed the evil doings of Kothar to many, including myself

True, but then you'll hear the same if not more about the evils of the Kothar... by simply listening to gossip on thaals!

I admit that there is still quite a lot to change, but the very first step for any reform is the acknowledgement of the fact that something is wrong and has to be corrected, which is precisely what this forum is doing to an extent.

You do realise that DBs are well aware of the corruption already - after all we're the victims of it! It's impossible not to know dude!

Dont go by the no. of posters that you have here my friend - I am sure there are many passive readers who read the forum regularly but dont actively participate in debates.

Even the passive readership is tiny - no more than a couple of hundred people at most.

Taking my example, I was a passive reader since last 4 years, before I decided to start participating in discussions - I have a long way to go I must admit.

This is part of the problem bro, people simply do not participate on the forum. Why do you think that is?

Also, if people can't even be bothered to type a few comments on a website - do you think they'll make the huge effort of taking affirmative action in the real world? Of course they won't... which is why the number of "active" posters is what really matters. It's a monumental tragedy that it is so low.

However this forum has definitely helped me acknowledge the change that is required in the current Bohra affairs by exposing the evil doings of the Kothar. It has helped me get closer to the true Islam - I have started reading the Quran with translation and ALHAMDO LILLAH, I am changed man now, and can identify the right from the wrong.

That is shameful my friend. Why weren't you reading the Quran before? Are you actually a practising Muslim bro or just along for the ride? Just think, you could have been a changed man from time you were a child!

I agree with you brother that we need to progress from here, however i wouldnt dismiss everything that has been done till date as totally useless. Please bear in mind that the reformists are not doing reforms for a living - they have their families to take care of, they still have distant relatives who are still in the Abde fold. Remember this is a religious movement, and not a political one. And the opponent is the mighty Kothar which has millions of rupees at their disposal and the blind faith of an entire community which they have taken hostage. The reformist dont have (to my knowledge) a sponsor who would fund their movement, neither can they devote their entire lives just for the reforms, unlike the Kothar for which everything would be at stake if they are toppled.

This is an excellent point bro. However it's also a little defeatist. From tiny acorns grow mighty oaks... unfortunately this movement is not growing at all, it is dwindling, and if action is not taken, will eventually perish.

So, in my opinion, what the reformist have done in their capacity is spreading awareness amongst the disillusioned Bohras and exposing the Kothar through this forum, and as per me, they have done a splendid job at it. Again, dont thnk that I am getting complacent here bro - there is still much that can and needs to be done. However we must give credit where it is due!

There is immense credit due, primarily to the original Reformists who made valiant strides several decades ago. These days, all I see is this website which is really just a platform for talk with absolutely no action.

Now coming to your point where you said you are not calling names and particularly about Mr. Insaf - did you not write that his post looks like it has been dictated by a 10 year old, and that it makes them look like foolish and amateurs?

Yes, because that is the truth bro. This has to be improved if Reformists want to be taken seriously.

I understand that Mr. Insaf is quite an aged man now, and for someone of his age, you dont need to necessarily get into the grammtics and semantics of the language, dont you think so bro? To me what he conveyed in his post was good enough for me to understand the message, and I am sure you got his point as well - so where was the need to criticize him for his language?

Mr Insaf is a highly intelligent man who has the ample ability to convey his message in a thoroughly professional manner. I never said he can't do this, I said he should take the time and make the effort to do this. Bro, maybe you are happy with the "chaal seh" approach, but I think people should always aim high and be constantly improving. The smarter the RM appears, the stronger it will be against its enemies, and the more appeal it will have to its friends.

I realise that Mr Insaf is not a young man any more but neither was Mr Engineer during his most productive years. That is the man whose memory Mr Insaf must live up to. Also, I would assume that Mr Insaf has help and support from the rest of the RM? Or is he completely alone with nobody willing to assist him?

Your suggestion on Mr.Insaf getting more engaged on the forum is well taken and appreciated, and personally I would want to see him more often on this forum as well to share his knowledge.

Absolutely, he seems to be the only guy on the front-line of the battle-field... there is very little forthcoming from the rest of the Reformists here.

Now, lastly, why havent I replied to your Human Resources post, because honestly brother - and no offence meant here - I am not entirely sure which side your loyalties lie and what is your intention of getting the information. Do you have an action plan of what you want to do with that information on humar resources? Just telling people what they can do being in a particular profession or region doesnt help. We all know what profession we are into and what we can do with that - but the reason no one has done anything is because of the fear of the mighty Kothar and the fear of Baraat. Do you have any action plan for that? If yes, please do post it and you would see more responses to your post I am sure.

Don't worry bro, I fully understand your concerns as we all want to remain anonymous! Indeed I have countless conspiracy theories about this place myself lol! I started that thread knowing full well that it's an entirely futile endeavour, simply due to the pathetically low number of people here.

Still, what I was hoping is that perhaps, we have a few lawyers here, who finding out about each others existence, would get to know each other and be able to work together to raise some legal issues with the Kothar at some point in time? Maybe there are some journalists here, or people with contacts in the media, who could work on exposing the Kothar to the wider world? Etc etc... who knows!

It was just an imaginary dream that people who are in the same line of work or business, could join forces. We could become a real organisation that has "specialists" that could be approached with relevant information on the wrong-doings of the Kothar and/or could gain valuable advice and guidance from. You know, like the title of the thread... Develop Human Resources lol!

If nothing else, then maybe folks could get to know each other better and become friends! (No, we must not be friends, we must hate each other and fight tooth and nail lol!)

Nevermind... this kind of tom-foolery will be pursued by the "New" Reform Movement my kids will be part of in the decades to come lol!

[Qutbi-Hero]

About Insaf Saheb, I'm glad you had the guts to defend him.

Don't you have any guts H?

Running him down for his lack of proficiency in English was mean and could only come from people who are insecure and petty. Insaf Saheb has courage of conviction which even seven generations of his detractors will be hard pressed to muster. If people knew about his background, and what a long way he has come they would think twice before making snotty comments about him. He is an accomplished Urdu writer and poet and his works are published in many literary journals. English is not his first language. That he can communicate in English with such felicity is quite a feat in itself. If his detractors were asked to do the same in Urdu they would fail miserably. It's sad that this colonial mentality still persists, being good in English does not automatically make you into a superior breed.

Mr Insaf is the only one who is doing anything significant for the RM, which means he is without doubt a courageous and highly intelligent, educated and accomplished man. After all, nobody else is doing much at all. It's a shame you guys don't learn from him.

Also, for right or wrong, good or bad, better or worse... English is the most important language in the the world (even though it's not the most widely spoken!). I didn't decide this, it just is what it is. Personally I would've loved Gujarati to be the main language, as I speak it far better than English, but that ain't ever gonna happen is it... damn those dirty colonialist swines lol!

The point is that Mr Engineer became an international icon and was revered not just by Reformists... but by huge parts of the entire Muslim and particularly Non-Muslim world too. This immense achievement was due to his eloquence in the English language. This gave him a global audience. When you have a leader who is respected all over the planet, it gives the RM greater exposure, influence and impact. The Kothar feared Mr Engineer because they knew people even OUTSIDE our tiny community took notice of him.

Mr Insaf has the ability to replicate the same success himself - you guys should be pushing him forward towards that goal... I want the Kothar to fear him as much as they did Mr Engineer. However it seems I'm the only one who does... no matter, I'm gonna make sure the Kothar fears my sons! Grow up quickly boys and kick some ass lol!

[anajmi]

It's a pity that you have been shitting all over the reform movement and the reformists but the Admin is too blind to see it. Instead of deleting your bile, the Admin is deleting my responses to you. It looks like your accusation that Admin is anajmi is working and Admin is working extra hard to prove he is not. Unfortunately that leaves me in a bind. I am unable to give you the responses that you deserve. Ahh well. So if you don't see any responses to you from me, assume that the Admin has deleted them.

[zinger]

And you shitting over the Dawoodi Bohra culture and tradition and faith is ok???

You've been doing it for over a decade now anajmi, it was about time that you were reigned in too.

If DBL has been shitting over the reform movement, then you were no less in shitting over this community that you were once part of. its called spitting in the plate that you eat from.

I agree DBL does go overboard at times but he is only giving back what has been spread for so long on this forum.

[anajmi]

There is a difference. If I have been shitting over the DB culture and traditions it is because it is worthy of that. And I have been consistent about it. But the two of you are hypocrites. On the one side you pretend to support the reform movement with lofty claims and then on the other side you want to shit on it because I have been shitting on it. Atleast I have been consistent. Unlike you I don't pretend to support that which I believe to be shit worthy!!

[zinger]

Actually Anajmi, i think that the reform movement is good.

I DO support it.

and DBL and i are not shitting over it.

DBL is merely pointing out where they are still lagging and their weaknesses.

The difference is that he is shitting on it so that someone will clean it up and hopefully make it more robust.

You on the other hand just suffer from a bad case of acidity and diarrhea (the verbal kind) which is why you need to purge yourself every time

Happy new year buddy

[true_bohra]

Reform would be highly appreciated if it was done in a manner it was suppose to.

Reformist have so far been able to speak only through this forum (unlike some active reformist who openly voiced their views). Rest I have been seeing them sitting on this forum and giving their free views.

You guys blow so many trumpets about reform movement but over the years this has lead you to get completely sidelined as compared to initial stages when some importance was at least given to such views raised by reformist. At present the condition is that no one is cared about who Bohra youths are. Yes we know they are a few who have secluded themselves from the mainstream Db faith and the Dai, most importantly.

This forum could have been a good medium if it worked on give and take relationship. For every post of ours, we get only abuses and bitter words. Try accepting goods things that Bohras do and point out some wrongs which we could rectify