What has reform movement achieved?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Is this your achievement after parting ways with Aqa Maula
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9_MZczADQ

I doubt this is a reformist Masjid and if at all it is so then the scenes are quite pathetic.

Please explain why you think it is pathetic?

[Humsafar]

Is this genuinely the Udaipur Reformist Jamaat? If it is, then Udaipur is doing very well! Excellent!

Yes, this is one of the reformists' masjid in Udaipur.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Is this genuinely the Udaipur Reformist Jamaat? If it is, then Udaipur is doing very well! Excellent!

Yes, this is one of the reformists' masjid in Udaipur.

Cool! When was this Masjid built and how many others do you have?
Who leads the Masjid? Do you have Shia scholars giving lectures during Ramadhan/Muharram etc?

[Humsafar]

Originally, we started with five masjids in 1973, out of which the main one in Moyyadpura through court cases and betrayal of certain reformist leaders (who sheepishly went back into the fold) has almost fallen into the hands of the Kothar. However, it is technically in custody of the court, and has police presence 24/7 and is opened by the police when required.
So, out of the original five, reformists have full possession of four, and over the years have built two more outside the main mohlla. So in total six masjids. One jamatkhana, and the jamat office building which also houses a medical clinic, and offices of other reformist organisations. We also own run two full-fledged schools from elementary to high school. The schools cater the poor sections of Bohras and non-Bohras and charges only nominal fees, and waives fees for those who cannot afford. All the institutions and charities are run from the income from annual sila fitra and donations. Add to that the expense of fighting court cases which have been going on for 40 years.
We have our own mullas/learned persons who lead the prayers and majlises. Some of them are invited overseas, like Kuwait, London etc. for Moharrum majlises. No, we do not invite Shia scholars, that has not been a tradition. We are quite self-sufficient in religious matters.

[zahir]

i will list out ur acheivements.speaking evil against their own moula,shaving off beard,wearing black cloths like other shia,s,namaaz ,nikah,aqiqa misaq without raza,speaking evil about ur own community,........u people r on the verge tinction.bye bye.asgar engineer gone to engineer ur all jahannum project.dawat ye auj per hai aur auj per rahegi.

[zahir]

could u people built a mazaar like burhanpur,a hospital like saifee,schools like msb,institutes like jamea,loans like qarzan hasanah,fmb thaali,mazaraat in karbala,mecca,madinah,kufa,najaf,????????????u dumb people.come out of udaipur n see the shaanaat.u headless people.haadi wagar na dhor......

[zahir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9_MZczADQ
this is what u all have become.

[Fateh]

could u people built a mazaar like burhanpur,a hospital like saifee,schools like msb,institutes like jamea,loans like qarzan hasanah,fmb thaali,mazaraat in karbala,mecca,madinah,kufa,najaf,????????????u dumb people.come out of udaipur n see the shaanaat.u headless people.haadi wagar na dhor......

You are correct brother reformist never build any you described above because they are not robber ,they have no business of any religion.Yes you are 100% right only Asharam type leader only can do all these you described.

[hsnhussain]

It's true bro... I've heard people must pay to get space for a their Massalo in Masjid! Very sad and shameful.
Hopefully HsnHussain bhai will give us more details about what is happening to DBs in Kuwait...

Three years back almost all markaz in kuwait started the process of registeration before the holy month of ramazan for allocation of masallah space for men. The idea was to allocate proper space to every individual coming regularly as well as to those who could not come to markaz regularly due to work and to avoid any fight for space. There were 2 conditions applied for registration,
1. Sabeel must be clear.
2. Ejamaat card must be updated.
Now, we were told that the place will be allocated as first come first serve and no amount will be charged. Everyone was asked to pay voluntary Ramazan hoob while registration itself, and almost everyone agreed as it would save their time. In kuwait there are very few families and mostly bohras stay in maskan or mess. I, myself, stay in one of these kind of maskan. When registration started we gave our ejamaat cards and sabeel books and a few also gave hoob amount to one member of our maskan so that he can register our names together and we could sit together. But when the guy went to register the names the jamaat registered the names only of the persons who had given hoob. When the guy asked why they needed hoob amount for registration as it was advertized that there is no charge for space and the hoob amount could be paid by individuals any time during the holy month of Ramazan. He was told that it is compulsory to pay hoob if he needs registration done. NO HOOB, NO REGISTRATION. My friend registered the names of the persons who had paid hoob and came back. Next day the others also gave hoob amount and registered themselves. Now on the first day people got another shock. The space was clearly allocated to people as per the amount paid as hoob and not as per registeration. The members of our maskan who had registered later but had paid higher were allocated space in the front rows and others who had registered first but paid lower amount were given space behind.

[hsnhussain]

That day many of the people who were angered by this discrimination in allocation of space went to the jamat member, one of them admitted that the amount paid as hoob is actually collected as masallah space. Unfortunately the issue was hushed up after a few days.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Originally, we started with five masjids in 1973, out of which the main one in Moyyadpura through court cases and betrayal of certain reformist leaders (who sheepishly went back into the fold) has almost fallen into the hands of the Kothar. However, it is technically in custody of the court, and has police presence 24/7 and is opened by the police when required.
So, out of the original five, reformists have full possession of four, and over the years have built two more outside the main mohlla. So in total six masjids. One jamatkhana, and the jamat office building which also houses a medical clinic, and offices of other reformist organisations. We also own run two full-fledged schools from elementary to high school. The schools cater the poor sections of Bohras and non-Bohras and charges only nominal fees, and waives fees for those who cannot afford. All the institutions and charities are run from the income from annual sila fitra and donations. Add to that the expense of fighting court cases which have been going on for 40 years.
We have our own mullas/learned persons who lead the prayers and majlises. Some of them are invited overseas, like Kuwait, London etc. for Moharrum majlises. No, we do not invite Shia scholars, that has not been a tradition. We are quite self-sufficient in religious matters.

This is beautiful!

Why are you guys not publicising this stuff - nobody outside of Udaipur knows anything about it bro! Why aren't you showing DBs how well you are doing without the Kothar? Why aren't you using this as a template for other Reformist Jamaats to learn from and follow?

The Reformist Jamaat in the UK is a disgusting shambles. It is good to see the other side - more people should be made aware! With a community of 5,000 members there, you must have some people with the required skill and spare time, to put all this information on the internet, for the whole world to see. Also, you should have your own permanent sticky thread on this forum, where you (and Mr Insaf) keep people up-to-date!

I'm curious though... how exactly are you self-sufficient in religious matters? Where were these guys trained?

Also, you said one of the Masjids has 24 hour security? Why, what are people worried will happen to it?

[Qutbi-Hero]

i will list out ur acheivements.speaking evil against their own moula,shaving off beard,wearing black cloths like other shia,s,namaaz ,nikah,aqiqa misaq without raza,speaking evil about ur own community,........u people r on the verge tinction.bye bye.asgar engineer gone to engineer ur all jahannum project.dawat ye auj per hai aur auj per rahegi.

Extinction? I have said so myself, but it seems in Udaipur at least, it is quite the opposite - they are thriving and it's wonderful to see!

It's apparent that the Reform Movement only really exists in Udaipur - everywhere else in the world, it's simply a small Apostate community which is slowly but surely dying. We need people from Udaipur to come to the UK and show them the way forward!

[Qutbi-Hero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d9_MZczADQ
this is what u all have become.

I see my fellow Shias doing Matham for Imam Hussain - which is always a magnificent sight... what is your issue with it brother?

Anyway, it does sadly show how confused and idiotic some of the members are here - I've heard many foolishly complain about DBs doing Matham, yet they do exactly the same in Udaipur. This is how it should be - like I've said before... Reform is about removing the Kothar, not the Panjatan. I'm glad "true" Reformists have the same belief and I'm sure their success will continue... I just wish it was a similar story here in the UK.

[Qutbi-Hero]

That day many of the people who were angered by this discrimination in allocation of space went to the jamat member, one of them admitted that the amount paid as hoob is actually collected as masallah space. Unfortunately the issue was hushed up after a few days.

Bro, how much are you being forced to pay? Do they throw you out of Masjid if you haven't paid?

[hsnhussain]

That day many of the people who were angered by this discrimination in allocation of space went to the jamat member, one of them admitted that the amount paid as hoob is actually collected as masallah space. Unfortunately the issue was hushed up after a few days.

Bro, how much are you being forced to pay? Do they throw you out of Masjid if you haven't paid?

Minimum amount is 7 KD for registration. If you are not registered you are not allowed to enter the markaz.

[faalse_ka_faasla]

Minimum amount is 7 KD for registration. If you are not registered you are not allowed to enter the markaz.

Even the main markaz in Ardiya has started charging minimum 7KD although there is huge space available.

[humanbeing]

I know suffering and happiness is part of life but when it comes from Allah. Curse comes when some one discomforts you and make you suffer for something.

Can you elaborate ! I missed your point.

Syedna TUS has never made us suffer for anything.

Its not Syedna I m blaming at. It’s the system that I m discussing. Either Syedna is responsible to allow the exploitation or he is irresponsible to ignore the exploitation.

It is a myth that bohra community is becoming an exclusive club for rich. I myself am a commoner but have never felt downtrodden or excluded of rights. And till date I have not seen any caste system within community as pointed by you and comparing our society with that of Hindus,

I leave this to your conscience ! to agree or disagree with my points. But try and raise the questions to your local sabak amil, and he will provide a fantastic theory to justify segregation of people in classes.

I accept that there would be foul language from some mumineen

Foul language is from the offer holder’s of jamaat entrusted to be compassionate towards commoners. Office holders from jamaat have high handed attitude towards commoners. You can see simple examples all around in local jamaats and dargahs. I m surprised you did not notice that.

In burhanpur, tired travelers are made to wait outside the dargah office be it summer, winter, rain or humidity. Selectively travelers are sent to amil’s office for shelling out salaam money or to obtain plum room location or “row-house”. Those who are straightforward are given “Vajihi” complex accommodations.

The compassion towards commoners are felt from commoner khidmatguzaars. Who actually get down at ground level to serve mumineen.

It would be dishonest to state the fact there is no partiality, biased treatment, favourtism and corruption in the system. In fact its rampant subconsciously.

Ideologies have been challenged,

Ideologies creating divide, promoting corruption and exploitation must be challenged.

Imam's (AS) occultance is questioned,

Why should not be ! Seeking answers to questions of faith shall not be rejected. This is my personal opinion.

Maula Ali AS is put in comparison with with Holy Prophet PBUH where we all know their respective maqaams,

Read / Listen carefully to bayaans and their underlying intents, with commonsense a layman can see what kothar is promoting. Many of their bayaans, they have not only compared Imam Ali with Prophet (PBUH), but in many instances, have elevated Imam Ali to be superior then Prophet. And in some instances, they have compared the present age Dai’s to Ahle-Bait and Prophets.

Dai is abused, His health is made a joke here. You say so much about humanity and all. Does this thing do not come to scale of humanity when you abuse Dai and his health

I detest this practice. I do not relate one’s health/financial/social condition with his/her deeds, unless they are directly related / responsible. ( you can review my posts)


I m not here to argue with you against Dai or any other particular person ! I want to debate over the system. a System of exploitation which has become a belief.

[true_bohra]

if it is against system then blame it and not the Dai. I know you will give this rugged argument that he is the head of the community and he should be blamed.

See this forum, what is its attitude towards the Dai. If he accepts all your demand then will your conscience allow you to again follow a person whom you all have abused so much.

If system is to be blamed then give me a single perfect system where people have not objected. In our case you all are the ones putting objections. Christians like roman catholics have belief in Pope and they are free willed to follow him and his system. The protestants have separated and follow their religion the way they like without any compulsion.

so if you are against the system, there are guys who have a seperate system of their own. follow it.

[anajmi]

if it is against system then blame it and not the Dai.

Actually, the entire system is owned, created and supported by the Dai. The entire blame lies with the Dai. The Amils and others are just chamchas. Infact, they are probably forced to do their evil. So the Dai is to be blamed for the evil of the Amil as well. So if the Amil is punished, the Dai will be punished twice, once for his own sins and once for the sins of his Amil. And if he has a thousand corrupt Amils working for him, then the Dai will be punished 1001 times.

[Rightlyguided]

A few questions for the so called "reformists"



Is the reform movement doing anything more than abusing the true dai, his family and followers on this forum?

What are the achievements in say last 10 years?

Why doesn't the vision of website explicitly mention support for KQ??, its obvious by the posts on this forum.

[Adam]

I've asked this many, many times on this Forum.
They haven't even been able to update their About Us page.

The Proggies & Qutbis are the same.

[lawgraduate]

zinger got reformed so yes forum worked for him, and in Quran ALLAH says saving one life is like saving the whole mankind.

and this is just one example I am sure many who dont even post got reformed and now they know truth about yazidi mufaddal.

now go figure.

[wiseman786]

I believe reform is a gradual process, something which cannot be measured. It is something that people feel rather than something than can be shown - perhaps like happiness?

I don't support either side by the way, I am not a reformist or an 'abde' for that matter - just answering the question. I hope you all manage to find what you are looking for; reform, god or otherwise

[araz5253]

Actually this site has now become an authoritative clearing house for all Bohra-Islam issues , this alone is a big success. I have seen many abdes also going through this site and lot of inside info is dessiminated through this forum. The dawedar story was discussed years in advance and people even abdes did not believe it. There are many many inside truths revealed which has helped thousands of abdes realize the folly. ALso many like me have altogether left the bohra fold for pure Islam.

[lawgraduate]

pure Islam.

zakir naaik fan once again, these guys dont realize there is nothing called pure islam, ISLAM IS PURE ITSELF, and ISLAM is respect for PROPHET MUHAMMED(S) without honoring him there is no ISLAM as such.

[Humsafar]

The same old tired argument again and again!! Please make a little effort and search this Forum before starting a new thread. This topic has been discussed a million times here. Here's one :
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4088&p=50561

There are many others, just search for them.

[Humsafar]

Here's one more: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8924&hilit=achieved#p118911

[UnhappyBohra]

I've asked this many, many times on this Forum.
They haven't even been able to update their About Us page.

The Proggies & Qutbis are the same.

Ha ha - MS brown nosers are the only ones that think so. Neither proggies nor Mumineen agree.

[fustrate_Bohra]

Yes the reform movement is WORKING. Though I was not an abde from beginning but still their were certain things which I thought it's part of bohra culture but actually it wasn't for eg. Taxes. Secondly this reform site has exposes so many things with EVIDENCES that it helped me to gather inner strength and I can clearly see and more importantly accepted and distinguish right from wrong.

Apart from this site(which is part of reform movement) I would like to give big thanks to ADAM, PHOENIX, JAMES, M.M. GHULAM NOOR5253 and their like minded, just because of their INCAPABILITIES to reply logically to questions posted by the member of this forum I becomee more firm in my belief and now I don't fear to say our DAI is not our well wisher but he is A BUSINESSMAN.

I accept this reform movement is slow but it's NOT stopped. I had seen reform in my friend who were die hard abde but now they too have doubts and the thing is they are not familiar with this site so one can imagine what if I introduce them to this site.

For me this site has done great job..

Rest can check testimonial thread created by admin.

Adam though you got reply but first you give logical answer to us and than ask questions. Earlier I use to give some respect to you thinking you are knowledgeable so what you are twisting facts but the way you address Crater Lake for me it's unacceptable and you had lost respect I know you give a damn but this is true.

[Ozdundee]

Is reform movement working ? Yes
how do we know ? results dozens of small achievements...we can draw a long list
is it as successful and quick ? no because the masses like many complain but want it easy ,a bit of struggle is to much to ask
what if there was no reform movement ? non abdes would be in deep trouble, communist Korea or isis would be paradise in comparison
do reformists get appreciated ? no.
is reformist a united group ? no but it is a confluence of ideas with common purpose and I intent,
can they ever unite ? maybe , but they can work side by side with people of like minds with civility
can reformists improve and get better at what they do ? yes and they need fresh blood
why reformists bother with such a techerous task ? darnn we care for you yes you abdes we cannot see abuse, deceit, suffering and turn our heads.