Malikul Ashtar

[Sufi monk]

And I see your master is not teaching you manners.

Day and night you talk about Islam. You are bringing a lot of negative glory to your islamic teachings.

this is a difference between you and me, I dont hold any master and I speak what is truth without adding anything up to it., and thanx for confirming you are dalaal and will defend your aqa on any cost.

[true_bohra]

@ shk Moiz:

Can I ask you why are you here?? If you think this is a platform for a meaningful debate then you are certainly mistaken because the reform platform is much covered with abuses and hard words and less with ideas of what goods things can be bought to the religion.

If you find my post pointless, then its your choice because I get the same feelings when I see posts of some staunch liars on this forum.

[humanbeing]

TB

Discussions ends with you very quickly.. as you advise to go to local amils and muallims. The questions raised here have been asked to them and responses are lies and threats.

However you are decent in your conversations and agree with you that, certain members only resort to cheap and vulgar humor rather then present a thoughtful discussion.

[Sheikh Moiz]

And I see your master is not teaching you manners.

Day and night you talk about Islam. You are bringing a lot of negative glory to your islamic teachings.

I am sorry brother, but someone who is harming islamic glory is MS and none else, I am not sure why you are not able to see this simple truth, unless you really want to live in denial, and I will also suggest to comment when it is needed and not just to show you are present here by commenting anything.

Fiamanillah

Regards
Moiz.

[Rebel]

We all have been conditioned to believe that we are the true flag bearers of Islam and we follow all the true teachings of Islam. We don't even know what Allah's book Quran teaches us as per instructions of kothar and co. we are not allowed to read the meanings and teachings of Quran - book of Allah. Merely reciting in Arabic does not tell or reveal to us what are teachings of the book. Are we really following the correct path?

[fustrate_Bohra]

What is QURAN?

Abdes pov: Its a powerful book and a kind of idol which gives u barakat and make you god dearer if you just keep on reading daily and loudly or even if you just kiss, so what if we dont understand the meaning

Pov frm non brain dead : Its merely a book like any other if you dont understand the content and more impotantly if you dont implement the content written in book. Reading silently and only once in whole lifetime is ok but the impact of our action should speak in such a way that everybdy says we read n follow quran.

Abdes: We read quran daily
Non brain dead: We try to implement quran daily.

[Sufi monk]

What is QURAN?

Abdes pov: Its a powerful book and a kind of idol which gives u barakat and make you god dearer if you just keep on reading daily and loudly or even if you just kiss, so what if we dont understand the meaning

Pov frm non brain dead : Its merely a book like any other if you dont understand the content and more impotantly if you dont implement the content written in book. Reading silently and only once in whole lifetime is ok but the impact of our action should speak in such a way that everybdy says we read n follow quran.

Abdes: We read quran daily
Non brain dead: We try to implement quran daily.

I agree with everything you wrote, but I would like to say Quraan is not same book as other, few miracles in book even as a language and numbers of alphabets used to convey message is miracle, and it makes it noble than any other book.

[salaar]

Oh shit what have you done https://scontent-b-kul.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 6413_n.jpg

[ghulam muhammed]

iam not taking side of malik ul ashtar but in bohra philosophy we start everything with matam e Hussain, our weddings our eid, matam in new house, after every farz namaz, this is done to draw barakat, if you agree with the bohra philosophy-------------------this is not all bohra philosophy--for ur kind information--this all started with SMB

A post by badrijanab which had appeared on the forum some time back and which is relevant to the subject :-

Book name: Mosam a Bahar
Author Name: Dai-al-Mutlaq Molana Abd a Ali Saifuddin.
Reference: Letters to Aamil

"'Ladam' (chest beating) and 'Sadam' (head beating) in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.) is 'fitnat' of Isnashari Shia and you make sure this practice is stopped and discouraged. Only 'Matam' (to cry or make face like crying) is allowed."

Meaning of Matam: to express grief by crying or making face likewise. In hindi it is called 'shok sabha'.

Meaning of Ladam: chest beating

Burhanuddin saheb cannot deliver any lectures without reading from papers. To cover this lacuna he incites his listeners to do chest beating in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.) and he labeled this as 'Matam'.

Burhanuddin saheb has abused the term 'Matam' to cover his poor oratory lacuna.

By inciting Dawoodi Bohras Mumins to do chest beating in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.) - Shri Burhanuddin s/o Taher Saifuddin is disobeying and insulting command of Sayyedina Abd a Ali Saifuddin.

The Dawat’s book “Mosame-Bahaar” has reported on the subject of “Principles of the Dawat System” vide Para XI page 340 giving reference of a letter written by Syyedna Abde-ali Saifuddin s/o Syyedna Abdul Tayyeb Zakiuddin Saheb (Surat, 12th Shabaan-ul-Karim 1222 A. H.) to his Amils. Sayedna Saheb had given ten Baab (instructions) to his Amils regarding adhering to the Shariyat-e-Mohammadi, to be humble, polite, just, honest and accountable to Mumineen under them. In Baab 6 of the letter he had stated as under:-

“Apni majlis Rasulullah (A.S.) ni majlis, apno darbar Amirul mumineen (S.A.) no darbar, apna Moaseroon (Jamat na loko) sab na sab As’habe-Safinat ane Arbabe-Vaqar howa joiye. Etle majlis per apno roub shaamil rahe. Har aam majlis ma nahi, fakat fazil ane kamil ashra ni majliso ma hee girya (rowa) ni ejazat chhe. Seena-zani (chaatee kutwoo) haram chhe. Apni seerat auwaliya ni seerat, ane apni aadat Aadate-kiram howi joiye. Koyee lamha shugule-elahi si faarig naa rehwoo joiye.

Moharram ni majlis maahi saghla mumineen ni aankho ashko thi tar thai. Koyee maatha ya seena per, firqa- Asna-Asharee ni tarah hath na mare. Firqa-mazkoor na misal majlise-Husain (A.S.) maa seena zani kari beadabee naa kare.”

[salaar]

Syedna Abd ali saifuddin maula is not more then a few hundred years back the riwayat of matam started as soon as the qafla of maula hussain returned from karbala and Imam Ali Zainul Abideen did first majlis between the people of madina, twisting facts and presenting wrong proofs wont be of much use, if you claim this was said by syedna Abd Ali Maula in his book mausam e bahar you are a liar as this book is still in the nisaab and a lot of reference is being given from it but yes let me clear you something, i have a book about 200 years old that book contains compilations and history, that book is alright but the author who compiled it turned against dawat in his later stage and therefore it became doubtful as it might contain certain portions which he has written against shariat, in that period publishing and editing was very difficult and some enemies did dirty tricks to pollute future generations, that might be the case here as well but if you insist i would simply say as one nabi passed the next nabi bring new shariat over writing the prior one, so let it be like that if you want to but stop presenting foolish logics and distorting facts with your limited knowledge about matam e Hussain.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro salaar,

First of all you don't want to believe what the previous Dai said because it doesn't go well with your ideology and if you don't believe in that Dai then no question of furthering the debate. Regarding the book's author and the authenticity of the bayan, I think badrijanab will be able to provide more details as the post was put by him.

stop presenting foolish logics and distorting facts with your limited knowledge about matam e Hussain.

Don't think that you are over smart and that you are the authority on Islamic history and matam and if you have an unbiased mind then please go through the subject issue which has been exhaustively debated on another thread after which you may have a different perspective altogether. Kindly note that Iam a staunch believer of Panjatan Pak (a.s.) and I revere and respect the sacrifices made by Imam Hussain (a.s.) and other shohadas but I strongly object when the clergy uses this as a tool to subjugate his followers and makes a mockery of this great sacrifice. Every act/ritual has its appropriate place and time.

[salaar]

Bro Ghulam Mohammad its good to be progressive but if progressive means considering matam as mockery or ritual then iam good where i stand, you or whoever is presenting reference about mausam e bahar is a liar that is a wrong fact that you are presenting, if you or anybody dont feel like doing matam dont do it but dont make false claim quoting Syedna Abd e Ali Saifuddin Maula.

[ghulam muhammed]

dont make false claim quoting Syedna Abd e Ali Saifuddin Maula.

Bro salaar,

Where is the question of making a false claim when I have presented the quotes from Bohra books ? These are not my words but the words of the late Dai. As I said earlier that if you doubt the authenticity of the book itself then the best person to answer you is badrijanab as frankly speaking I haven't read the book myself.

Please don't accuse me of making mockery of matam because I can never mock the great shahadat and matam, the people who mock matam are the ones who USE it on any and every given occasion whether joyous or sad. Matam is an expression of extreme grief and how can any person display extreme grief during marriage, birthdays or holding blue prints of a construction site ? Doesn't it sound disturbing to you ?

[Maqbool]

but in bohra philosophy we start everything with matam e Hussain, our weddings our eid, matam in new house, after every farz namaz, this is done to draw barakat,

Can you tell us since when this bohra philosophy? At least in my young age this was not there. Even matam on moharam days were done only from 7th to 10 of moharram.

[fustrate_Bohra]

but in bohra philosophy we start everything with matam e Hussain, our weddings our eid, matam in new house, after every farz namaz, this is done to draw barakat,

Can you tell us since when this bohra philosophy? At least in my young age this was not there. Even matam on moharam days were done only from 7th to 10 of moharram.

Salaar bhai i think doing MATAM to draw barakat is wrong perception. MATAM means expressing grief to the ones you love the most it has nothing to do with barakat. If you are doing this for barakat than its wrong intention as this shows selfishness rather than sorrow.

According to me its HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE to express grief when there is some sort of occassion(EID, Birthday, Wedding, et....) is going and if you are not in grief than how doing MATAM stands valid?

[salaar]

For us the shahadat e Maula Hussain is the shahadat e uzma this is not a historical incident that happened then and now its bygone this is the core belief of islam, had this qurbani not been given by Imam Hussain you might be sitting in a church and i might be sitting in a pagoda, this shahadat drew a line between haq and batil and made known to the world that tyranny can never over rule shariat e mohammadi and saved us from the type of religion which yazeed and bani ummaiyah wanted us to adopt, this matam i again say is not a symbol of grief but it is a regular part of our ibadat, and i consider this amal no less then reciting Quran, as there is no particular time for reading quran and we do that everyday in happiness and in grief similarly this ibadat is not restricted for a particular mood i would say it is in a momins blood to do matam of mazloom e karbala and we must try to understand the evil designs of todays yazeed who is bent upon stopping people from the love of ahl e bayt.

[Sheikh Moiz]

For us the shahadat e Maula Hussain is the shahadat e uzma this is not a historical incident that happened then and now its bygone this is the core belief of islam, had this qurbani not been given by Imam Hussain you might be sitting in a church and i might be sitting in a pagoda, this shahadat drew a line between haq and batil and made known to the world that tyranny can never over rule shariat e mohammadi and saved us from the type of religion which yazeed and bani ummaiyah wanted us to adopt, this matam i again say is not a symbol of grief but it is a regular part of our ibadat, and i consider this amal no less then reciting Quran, as there is no particular time for reading quran and we do that everyday in happiness and in grief similarly this ibadat is not restricted for a particular mood i would say it is in a momins blood to do matam of mazloom e karbala and we must try to understand the evil designs of todays yazeed who is bent upon stopping people from the love of ahl e bayt.

brother avoid posting crap, matam is shia and bohra innovation and it got introduced in islaam after many years passed of shadaat of Imam Hussain(s).

please check ur facts before believing every thing which is dish out in bohra majlises.

Maula Hussain(s) always advised all his ahlul bayt (specially women) to not slap himself or grief too much on his martyrdom.

PS- if you want to argue further let me know, I will post references from shia books.


I am not really interested to hurt your sentiments, but since you are trying to justify matam on all occasion I am pointing this out.

Regards
Moiz

[salaar]

I made my point clear I have no wish to elongate this argument and keep repeating things and read the lengthy articles by salafi writers pasted from the net. I have my values and believes for matam e Hussain which I value more then my life

[Sheikh Moiz]

I made my point clear I have no wish to elongate this argument and keep repeating things and read the lengthy articles by salafi writers pasted from the net. I have my values and believes for matam e Hussain which I value more then my life

yes so kindly keep your views to your self, because when you talk in public you must remain ready to present proofs or material to support your claims.

malikashtar is stupid and what ever he is doing is totally biased and un islamic, it can't be defended by any means.

Thank You


Regards
Moiz

[salaar]

shaikh sahib are you out of your mind, drunk or what? why are you dragging malik ul ashtar in between, right now we were talking about matam e hussain and i have publicly given my view and rejected the proof that was presented by bro ghulam mohammad about the book mausam e bahar i call it a naked lie and conspiracy, this is my stand, if you are not a liar bring proof of mausam e bahar, iam so sure about it because i know its a lie and you are unnecessarily trying to jump inbetween without having a clue, kindly mind your own business if you are unaware of things.

[Sheikh Moiz]

shaikh sahib are you out of your mind, drunk or what? why are you dragging malik ul ashtar in between, right now we were talking about matam e hussain and i have publicly given my view and rejected the proof that was presented by bro ghulam mohammad about the book mausam e bahar i call it a naked lie and conspiracy, this is my stand, if you are not a liar bring proof of mausam e bahar, iam so sure about it because i know its a lie and you are unnecessarily trying to jump inbetween without having a clue, kindly mind your own business if you are unaware of things.

lets discuss about bohra books and there authenticity, lets see how far it goes.

btw its a grave sin to accuse another muslim brother to be drunk and alcoholic, didnt learn this small ethics from majlises?

can you show from any authentic shia/bohra books which suggest imammain was doing matam on Hussain(s)?

awaiting your reply.

[answerer]

[quote="wise_guy"]Doing matam at all occasions is a USP of Malikul Ashtar. I hope he doesnt do it before doing the dirty work in bed![/quote

this shows up how worst you all can think
I was lyk u guys thinks as progressive !!!! but you all so cheap thinking peoples ,imam hussains matam is done in d whole world bcoz he given scarifice of his life and his family too! And you bloody cheap peoples making dirt all around

late but sure allah will teach u lesson for this Inshallah !

I hope admin is seeing this post of all this what's going on if he is still quite he is one of your

[LFT]

For us the shahadat e Maula Hussain is the shahadat e uzma this is not a historical incident that happened then and now its bygone this is the core belief of islam, had this qurbani not been given by Imam Hussain you might be sitting in a church and i might be sitting in a pagoda, this shahadat drew a line between haq and batil and made known to the world that tyranny can never over rule shariat e mohammadi and saved us from the type of religion which yazeed and bani ummaiyah wanted us to adopt, this matam i again say is not a symbol of grief but it is a regular part of our ibadat, and i consider this amal no less then reciting Quran, as there is no particular time for reading quran and we do that everyday in happiness and in grief similarly this ibadat is not restricted for a particular mood i would say it is in a momins blood to do matam of mazloom e karbala and we must try to understand the evil designs of todays yazeed who is bent upon stopping people from the love of ahl e bayt.

MA - Complete Success for Kothar Mubarak. Stay involved in rituals all day long but dont give any thought to what and why these are there. Do Matam at all ocassions but dont defend Tauheed that Imam Husain was defending. Pray five times a day to Allah but still put an arzi into SMS for help with your daily issues because you cant ask Allah for help. I am sure there are many other instances..

Brother, I completely agree with you - Shahadat-E-Maula Husain is a key lesson for us to understand and it drew a line between haq & batil. But, do you think that Imam Husain sacrificed his entire family so that we can get salvation by doing mindless Matam? Or do you think the way to salvation that he taught us was that you need to stand against tyranny which will lead to your salvation. The road to salvation isnt in doing a mindless ritual but in following his example in whatever way is applicable today. And that means standing up for all that is wrong and all sorts of injustice that comes in your way.

[salaar]

just ending the useless debate but to fulfill hujjat i quote few instances from history on matam e Hussain, Maulatena Umm e Salamah did matam e Hussain after the sand in the bottle turned red which was given to her by RasoolAllah, Maulatena Zainab did matam e Hussain during her journey to syria hitting her forehead with the bar which caused bleeding, then after reaching madina she and people of madina hit their cheeks and did matam as clearly recorded in history, then Maulana Jaffar bin Abdullah al Ansari reached karbala, he was instructed by RasoolAllah that you will live long enough to witness the shahadat of my Hussain, you go to his qabar for ziyarat, Jaffar started walking on his knees from a distance from qabr e Hussain and did matam and read Salam, the same salam that we read when we go to karbala. zikar of matam e Hussain is inscribed in Kitab ul Majlis wal Musairaat, Sherhul Akhbar and Qaseeda tul Mukhtaar during the time of imam Mansoor and imam Moiz. all this is true but you will not agree to it.

[fustrate_Bohra]

Salaar bhai i can only conclude from the instances you mentioned is that matam they had done is because they had felt the extreme pain and this is what we are also trying to say that it should only be done at an appropriate time and should not be made as ritual to do in each and every function. I had seen many many people in the masjid were people are just doing matam and there facial expression shows something different either they are laughing, smiling, talking.... so what is the use of such kind of matam, i hope salaar bhai you understood what am i trying to convey, anyways its ur view u take it as ritual and i take it as way of expressing true grief/feelings from the bottom of heart.

[Sheikh Moiz]

just ending the useless debate but to fulfill hujjat i quote few instances from history on matam e Hussain, Maulatena Umm e Salamah did matam e Hussain after the sand in the bottle turned red which was given to her by RasoolAllah, Maulatena Zainab did matam e Hussain during her journey to syria hitting her forehead with the bar which caused bleeding, then after reaching madina she and people of madina hit their cheeks and did matam as clearly recorded in history, then Maulana Jaffar bin Abdullah al Ansari reached karbala, he was instructed by RasoolAllah that you will live long enough to witness the shahadat of my Hussain, you go to his qabar for ziyarat, Jaffar started walking on his knees from a distance from qabr e Hussain and did matam and read Salam, the same salam that we read when we go to karbala. zikar of matam e Hussain is inscribed in Kitab ul Majlis wal Musairaat, Sherhul Akhbar and Qaseeda tul Mukhtaar during the time of imam Mansoor and imam Moiz. all this is true but you will not agree to it.

yes thats correct, but have u research next part of story?

Imam Zainul abedin didnt prefered this and he told Molatuna Zainab(s) to refrain from such self harming.

Kindly do research.

[fustrate_Bohra]

Guys let stop this and focus on the topic if nebody want to have debate on this request to create new topic on MATAM.

Thanks

[salaar]

iam going to present a proof to negate the wrong interpretation of mausam e bahar after sometime in a fresh thread

[wise_guy]

dear answerer, thats what I meant to say... Imam Hussain's matam should be done in remembrance of his sacrifice and one's hand automatically raises for matam when he or she feels the pain in remembrance of Karbala events. But in the case of Malik ul Ashtar, he has made a mockery of the matam.. (If you have attended his majlis frequently, you would know). That is wrong.

Doing matam at all occasions is a USP of Malikul Ashtar. I hope he doesnt do it before doing the dirty work in bed!

this shows up how worst you all can think
I was lyk u guys thinks as progressive !!!! but you all so cheap thinking peoples ,imam hussains matam is done in d whole world bcoz he given scarifice of his life and his family too! And you bloody cheap peoples making dirt all around

late but sure allah will teach u lesson for this Inshallah !

I hope admin is seeing this post of all this what's going on if he is still quite he is one of your

[kimanumanu]

I posted this in the Islam Today forum but probably relevant given what is being discussed above:

I came across this for the first time today and thought it may be of interest to others.
Sheikh Vinay Khetia is a Hindu convert to Shia Islam - see http://abuzarhasan.weebly.com/conversio ... hetia.html

This is a video recording of his talk on the history of azadari and ziyarat of Imam Hussain - http://youtu.be/45nOIixQoDk