Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[salaar]

To Sufi Monk aka Monginese, when did i ever say for once that iam impressed by Khuzaima Sahib neither am i saying i am a die hard abde, whatever the facts were we discussed it openly and today also iam saying it is nothing but money money and money and the kothar is abusing common folks by plundering their wealth but never ever the idea of KQ appealed to me and i care the least what you consider me and what you mistook me for, however it was an amusing situation i dont know why the dawat planners lingered such a solid proof for so long, i consider it their trump card.

[salaar]

hey shaikh saab i dont know why but after reading your points i cracked a louder laughter i wish you could hear it HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Adam]

Clarifying some purposely misleading discussions.

It is very obvious that there are none or not many Qutbis commenting on this thread. It's only the Proggys who have nothing to do with Fatemi/Dawoodi Bohra faith. They will ridicule and reject anything connected to it. So it's pointless.

Events/Audio/Video from todays Waaz.

Audio: Nass on Syedna MUFADDAL TUS. He and Shz Qaid Johar bs were not present.
Audio has Nass.

Video: The Shzd witnesses visited Syedna Mufaddal, and all the sahebs jointly came to the hospital. Sharbat, araz and salaam to Syedna RA and Syedna TUS.
There is No Nass in this video.
Syedna RA gives raza and with the help of Shzd Idris gives sherbat to Syedna Mufaddal, places is hand on his back and is seen speaking to Syedna Mufaddal and Dr Moiz Bs.

Some reasons I can think of why it wasn't shown before:
1. Information about the existence of this video and audio was known.
2. The clear Nass of Raudat Tahera video "mufaddal bhai ne Nass nu taaj", alive witnesses and Nass document were sufficient for those who accept the truth.
3. Since this is clearly a private video, there no need to make it public since the remaining evidence was sufficient.
4. This video and audio was presented in courts last month. It would make sense to show the evidence to courts before making it public.

The audio is clear. And the video clearly refutes all the medical claims of the QUTBIs that Syedna wasn't aware of his whereabouts and movements, and couldn't speak clearly a few hours after the stroke.

The truth always prevails

[Ummehani52]

Salaam. New on here so please regardless of what I say, don't have a go at me or shout.. But I'd like to say one thing.. If this video that was seen today was shown with KQ being in the same position as SMS.. And SMB was directing KQ with his hands and giving Sharbat then wouldn't majority of you on this forum accept it as his fat'he mubeen? It's just a food of thought so don't reply without thinking about this comment ... If KQ was presented in this video today how many of you who are saying the video is tampered with say KQ has used technology and edited the whole video...? Regardless of who you are currently favouring it's about principles... And.. Well I'm a little worried some might bite my head off so I'll leave it here...

Ummehani

[Sceptical]

4. This video and audio was presented in courts last month. It would make sense to show the evidence to courts before making it public.

So SKQ camp was aware of this video?

[Sufi monk]

Forget about qutbis and forget about muffy, most funny thing is to see thèse abdes reappears when they see somee thing coming up in their favor, and they disappear as soon as they start losing.

Just like how all frogs appears in monson and disapears in summer specially Adam is one of those frogs

I am yet to see this new video so I personaly cant comment until I can see by my self.

[Ummehani52]

If such a video was shown for either side.. then I wouldn't be surprised if every frog came out. Its evidence... whether people think its tampered with or edited. It's visual. Those who said that there's no CCTV footage or any audio recording to prove or .
If I'm not mistaken.. someone said these days everyone carries a smartphone why didn't they record it... well. We heard and we saw.. so its a bit baffling that whatever people asked for as granted and yet there's still confusion. Yes SmB RA voice may not be clear for many of you but you saw him.. you saw his actions.. it didn't seem like anyone was forcing him.. or did it? Surely didn't seem like it to me

[AgnosticIndian]

Not seen the video audio but question from me is when every single event is relayed or recording shown across the world, why was this not shown soon after "Nass"? Why was the Raudat Tahera thing done? What was the need?

About the private event, an event as important as Nass is not a private affair esp when Zahir Nass was done a couple of weeks later.

And lastly, why was this video released and shown now esp when claim of Nass going back decades with some signed letter was shown earlier?

Seems to me that MS team is reacting to anything KQ does or says.

Anyways, my patents will be very happy today. And I will have to give them a patient hearing

[Sceptical]

My first reaction was that SMB(ra) was manipulated.
Especially when Shz Idriss Bs was almost forcing him to give sharbaat to SMS.
SMS was standing in front of SMB(ra) but there was no reaction after Shz QJ bs speech.

The main question : why no video when SMB(ra) was talking? why only an audio clip?

[MMH]

Salaam. New on here so please regardless of what I say, don't have a go at me or shout.. But I'd like to say one thing.. If this video that was seen today was shown with KQ being in the same position as SMS.. And SMB was directing KQ with his hands and giving Sharbat then wouldn't majority of you on this forum accept it as his fat'he mubeen? It's just a food of thought so don't reply without thinking about this comment ... If KQ was presented in this video today how many of you who are saying the video is tampered with say KQ has used technology and edited the whole video...? Regardless of who you are currently favouring it's about principles... And.. Well I'm a little worried some might bite my head off so I'll leave it here...

Ummehani

No one sould have a go at you or shout at you for having your opinion ummehani. On the flip side, if it was indeed KQ...wouldnt all the salaars, maxthemature, true bohra, james on this forum say that the video was fabricated. There would be whatsapp messages saying dushmano ye chaal rachi che...I want to see the video before i draw my conclusion. I also want to say that we must hear what KQ's side before we decide anything.

You are correct...its about principles and I for one believe that one side is playing a very nasty game with people's faiths. Whoever that sideis, is so so messed up. My gut feeling still is that its MS side thats doing the phony stuff.

Despite the video, I think KQ should have a card up his sleeve. Come on, he is not known to be a genius for nothing..

[MMH]

My first reaction was that SMB(ra) was manipulated.
Especially when Shz Idriss Bs was almost forcing him to give sharbaat to SMS.
SMS was standing in front of SMB(ra) but there was no reaction after Shz QJ bs speech.

The main question : why no video when SMB(ra) was talking? why only an audio clip?

Sceptical- please post the video...

[next_generation2014]

Clarifying some purposely misleading discussions.

It is very obvious that there are none or not many Qutbis commenting on this thread. It's only the Proggys who have nothing to do with Fatemi/Dawoodi Bohra faith. They will ridicule and reject anything connected to it. So it's pointless.

Events/Audio/Video from todays Waaz.

Audio: Nass on Syedna MUFADDAL TUS. He and Shz Qaid Johar bs were not present.
Audio has Nass.

Video: The Shzd witnesses visited Syedna Mufaddal, and all the sahebs jointly came to the hospital. Sharbat, araz and salaam to Syedna RA and Syedna TUS.
There is No Nass in this video.
Syedna RA gives raza and with the help of Shzd Idris gives sherbat to Syedna Mufaddal, places is hand on his back and is seen speaking to Syedna Mufaddal and Dr Moiz Bs.

Some reasons I can think of why it wasn't shown before:
1. Information about the existence of this video and audio was known.
2. The clear Nass of Raudat Tahera video "mufaddal bhai ne Nass nu taaj", alive witnesses and Nass document were sufficient for those who accept the truth.
3. Since this is clearly a private video, there no need to make it public since the remaining evidence was sufficient.
4. This video and audio was presented in courts last month. It would make sense to show the evidence to courts before making it public.

The audio is clear. And the video clearly refutes all the medical claims of the QUTBIs that Syedna wasn't aware of his whereabouts and movements, and couldn't speak clearly a few hours after the stroke.

The truth always prevails

Where it is mentioned that the video & audio was presented in a court last month?

[next_generation2014]

Waiting for update on fatemidawat.

[salaar]

I guess this video should have been presented on the day when people were saying that Khuzaima sahib left the court in an unhappy mood.

[MMH]

I guess this video should have been presented on the day when people were saying that Khuzaima sahib left the court in an unhappy mood.

Salaar this video should have been presented to the world instead of having Burhanuddin Moula come to Raudat Tahera on 19th Rajab and coerce him to proclaim nass since its making such a strong impact on everyone...but then we have a habit of attributing all this to 'hikmat'

[Adam]

@Sceptical

So SKQ camp was aware of this video?

Yes. It was presented in Courts on or before the 29th April hearing. The Judge also commented that Syedna RA looked healthy (ie, fit to perform verbal Nass).

@AgnosticIndian

Not seen the video audio but question from me is when every single event is relayed or recording shown across the world, why was this not shown soon after "Nass"? Why was the Raudat Tahera thing done? What was the need?

If you had seen the video, you would realize why it was not made public in 1432H. It is NOT because there was no evidence or something to hide, it is simply because it was a private video and Moula was seen in a position with medical equipment that only a VERY few close members who attended him personally would have seen him.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, the Nass through witnesses is accepted according to Dawat doctrine and no one in 1432H contested it.
This was acceptedby all Mumineen including KQ and his children. So much that their site (http://www.Tahiyaat.com) had a post about it on the 4th of Rajab, and later, he and his children openly announced it in their Waaz (Ujjain, Toronto, Sikandrabad).

Furthermore, Moula performed another clear Nass in Raudat Tahera. There still wasn't any claimant at the time, so there was no need.

Now, since that their is a claimant who is rejecting everything under the sky, more evidence is being provided. Since a case is going on, in my opinion, they are informing the courts to verify it (it is already verified) before making it public.

Why didn't the Cromwell Audio of the Nass have a video? Valid question. My thoughts are:
1. According to AbdulQadir BS report, when the Shzds took raza to leave the hospital, Moula had just sent a message to instruct them to wait a bit longer. He then called them in and informed them of the Nass.
2. No one was aware of Moula's intentions at the time, so it may have been a spontaneous reaction to record.
3. (Most possible) Since this was shortly after the stroke, and no one knew what was to happen, it's possible that Moula's appearance wouldn't be fit to put on video camera and it was AQbs reaction to record the audio rather than video Moula in that current state. By the time the second video was taken, much time had passed and it was fit to put on a video camera.

The Nass has been DOCUMENTED in 1388H Letter, Risalas of 1432H and Misaal Shareef of 1432.
There is Audio evidence of Cromwell Hospital 1432H
Video evidence of Cromwell Hospital & Raudat Tahera.
There are witnesses alive to testify.

These four points are accepted according to Dawat Doctrines, where Nass must take place amoungst witnesses.

The video (Hospital & Raudat Tahera) also is contrary to KQs comments on Moula's debilitating state and not being able to speak coherently. Moula is observing, moving, directing and talking.

There is plenty of evidence!
KQ has nothing but his own flawed testimony of a private Nass, without any evidence nor witnesses!

[Sceptical]

Thanks for your reply Adam Bhai.
The audio clip didn't seem to be a spontaneous recording (maybe as per instruction of SMB(ra) himself). That's why I was wondering why they didn't record video.

Anyway, SKQ's claim is weaker than ever. I'm suprised this video is not mentioned on http://fatemidawatlegal.com/. The main arguement of Husain bs Qutbuddin concerning the hospital nuss (in the Q&A session) was the lack of video recording of such an important evenement...

[byculla]

Adam - you make some good points. I haven't seen the video this far but reading the comments this far, this certainly looks like a game changer.

However I disagree that nobody raised any issue with the Nass before. It was reported in Hindustan times back in August of last year (see http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 44475.aspx) and frankly there were many people in our jamaat itself who were doubting the nass after the article appeared. If you had such solid evidence, why not publish it upfront ?

Additionally its been 4 months and a missed opportunity to debate this internally and settle this amicably. I still don't understand what better opportunity you would have to humiliate your opponent then debate him publicly ? You are on Haq and have all the evidence in the world, your opponent's speech is not very clear - why not debate in front of community, show this video back in February itself (just after 40 days are over) and settle it once and for all ? Why have this go to courts - especially when the opponent was openly telling that they are going to do that (in the first press conference itself).

Shezada Mufaddal bhaisaheb has openly told in waaz in Udaipur that he is against court cases - one should try to avoid it at all costs and he went on to give reason that they just fill up lawyers pockets and nothing else (it was ironic that the Moiyyadpura Masjid in which he did waaz on 28th Safar Imam Hasan AS shahadat day in the same journey was won by dawat as a result of a successful court case). Why did he not try to avoid this one when he could have had a talk with the opponent ?

[Sceptical]

I agree.
this case should have been treated internally. And the camp of the SMS should have shown this video earliest. What a pity, the case has tarnished the reputation of the community and put people in turmoil.
I sincerely hope it will end here and this video is the "final word". But I fear it's not the case.

[hello52]

Saw the video and I thought it was fake. If SMB had a major stroke and his left side's paralysed then how could he lift both arms? It just didnt make sense :-/

then I guess U did not even see the live telecast of the nass at raudat tahera where syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin ra gave salami to his people on entering the rozat .
The video is available on you tube if U doubt .
And he was never paralised he and stroke that's it.
It was severe beceuse the chance of survival are just 1percent that's why and syedna was in that 1 percent . The after effects are dangerouse for the person who suffer it . And every body has seen the effect for themselfe

[anajmi]

Additionally its been 4 months and a missed opportunity to debate this internally and settle this amicably. I still don't understand what better opportunity you would have to humiliate your opponent then debate him publicly ? You are on Haq and have all the evidence in the world, your opponent's speech is not very clear - why not debate in front of community, show this video back in February itself (just after 40 days are over) and settle it once and for all ? Why have this go to courts - especially when the opponent was openly telling that they are going to do that (in the first press conference itself).

All valid questions, however the standard abde response should suffice. Apna Dai ghaib na jaankar che and e je kare ema hikmat che. E shuqam aam karu e puchwanu nahin.

[Adam]

@byculla

However I disagree that nobody raised any issue with the Nass before. It was reported in Hindustan times back in August of last year (see http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 44475.aspx) and frankly there were many people in our jamaat itself who were doubting the nass after the article appeared. If you had such solid evidence, why not publish it upfront ?

We are all aware of this article. Frankly, at that time, silence from the KQ side was strange and caused a lot of grief, but it is a fact (as stated by AbdulQadir bs in the article) that KQ had in fact spoken to Syedna Mufaddal and congratulated him on the Nass. Since they hadn't openly said anything, it wasn't anyone's place to be doubting them. We all wished the content of the article wasn't true. But in hindsight, we now understand why the "refused to comment".

As per what you said, I don't see how "many people in our jamaat itself who were doubting the nass after the article appeared."
What evidence/reason/logic does the article contain that makes you doubt a Nass that was said so clearly in Raudat Tahera for all to hear and see?
What could the article say to make others doubt the numerous gestures of Moula to Mufaddal Moula, sitting on the Takht with bayaan besides him for the past 3 years - make you doubt the Nass?

1. No one openly doubted it or claimed to doubt it, besides an unauthentic ALIAS Qutbi Bohra in some random article. (We all know how Newspapers love masala of scandals).
2. If people, or Qutbuddins had openly contested the Nass, then it is very possible that the evidence we are seeing today, would have been revealed back then.
3. The "viewable" evidence (Testimony of Witnesses, Raudat Tahera, Misaal Shareef) was enough for any Mumin to accept.
4. We can go on for years about what should or shouldn't have happened IF something had or had not happened. It's pointless. We can only talk about what has happened.
We know that Nass happened, and suitable evidence was given.
3 years later the Nass was questioned, and thus more evidence was given to counter it.

Additionally its been 4 months and a missed opportunity to debate this internally and settle this amicably. I still don't understand what better opportunity you would have to humiliate your opponent then debate him publicly ? You are on Haq and have all the evidence in the world, your opponent's speech is not very clear - why not debate in front of community, show this video back in February itself (just after 40 days are over) and settle it once and for all ? Why have this go to courts - especially when the opponent was openly telling that they are going to do that (in the first press conference itself).

What you are saying is true, IF & only IF someone was open to the truth.
If one was open to accepting the truth, the simple video of Syedna RA doing Nass in Raudat Tahera would be enough for a blind man to see the truth. It was enough for me and 100s of 1000s of Bohras to accept it.
You hint to say that this latest audio and video evidence is enough to "settle it once and for all"? Sadly, you may are mistaken, because KQ has reached a whole new level of blindness. I won't be suprised if he rejected these media files as well. Sometimes, there is no limit to ignorance. No matter what you do or prove, it may never be enough.

Shezada Mufaddal bhaisaheb has openly told in waaz in Udaipur that he is against court cases - one should try to avoid it at all costs and he went on to give reason that they just fill up lawyers pockets and nothing else (it was ironic that the Moiyyadpura Masjid in which he did waaz on 28th Safar Imam Hasan AS shahadat day in the same journey was won by dawat as a result of a successful court case). Why did he not try to avoid this one when he could have had a talk with the opponent ?

You are mixing apples with oranges here.

Syedna Mufaddal clearly provided all the necessary information for any 'open to truth' person to see. Video, Audio, Textual and Witnesses as evidence. He requested KQ to come and question the witnesses as to their testimonies. KQ rejected the Nass letter without even seeing it. He refused to meet the delegation sent by Syedna Mufaddal (4th Rabi Akr 1435H). It is KQ that has rejected all attempts to reason and dialogue.

Having blinded both his eyes on purpose, it was KQ that approached the court, NOT Syedna Mufaddal. It is KQ that is making a tamasha in court, not Syedna. It is KQ that is dragging on this drama, not Syedna. If one side files action, the respondent, as a citizen of that country has no other option than to enter the case.

Quoting from their website:

With full faith in the Indian Legal system Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin TUS approached the Bombay High Court seeking a declaration that he is the 53rd Dai,

Syedna Mufaddal's dawat is flourishing while KQ is without a job.

[true_bohra]

Valid poins adam bhai....

Now people here are asking that why isnt it mentioned on fatemidawat.com, so we are wise enough to understand that KQ has got a big blow with this and he would never mention such a thing. I am not so concerned about its updation on site rather more interested to know Mr husain Qutbuddin's reaction to this. His fat claims of his father being the rightful dai has become cheeky now.

Also the report that they submitted in the court regarding US doctors' opinion to it is now mere a laughable stock. Syedna RA took sherbet and his actions clearly shows that he was fit and was talking to shehzadas and Dr Moiz bs.

Mr Husain Qutbuddin and the other qutbi clan, you were feeling proud in spreading awareness about the case, we will await your response to the video and how your father is been proved wrong time and again.

[byculla]

Brother Adam - "He refused to meet the delegation sent by Syedna Mufaddal " - this is certainly news to me (and I am sure to many others on this forum as well)

Can you please mention what date did the delegation attempt to meet SKQ ? On what authority are you claiming that the delegation attempted to meet SKQ and it was SKQ who refused to meet (I mean to ask from whom did you hear this piece of information) ? As far as I know there is deafening silence from SMS side after in public waaz he asked Shezada Qaidjohas bs, Shezada Malekul ashtar bs and Shezada Abbas bs to contact the other side and to reconcile. After that event, I was expected that in another public waaz he would explain what happened - but as far as I know there is no update on this. I myself has asked this question previously on this forum but haven't received response.

As far as I know, it is SMS side who booked an appointment and later rescinded it (based on fatemidawat.com). This is the only update I have on this topic at least "officially". Officially, from SMS there has not been any update on attempting to reconcile after the event on 4th Rabiul Akhar. I'd be happy to know if I am wrong anywhere.

[Adam]

@byculla
We can go on for hours discussing, what if and what not.

Whether the meeting happened or was cancelled is besides the point that there is Audio, Video & Textual proof of the Nass and Syedna's health. Which as you just said it has "settled it once and for all".

Regarding the delegation. This is what what my sources tell me. I wouldn't be surprised if the Qutbi Bohra site altered the news to suit their own agenda. That's what you would expect from the opposition.

1. Are you a part of the Qutbi sect? If yes, why haven't you so accepted the truth since it is settled and clear as day? What more do you want?

2. If you are neither Qutbi nor Dawoodi Bohra. Please ignore.

[abde53]

Adam
If one was open to accepting the truth, the simple video of Syedna RA doing Nass in Raudat Tahera would be enough for a blind man to see the truth. It was enough for me and 100s of 1000s of Bohras to accept it.

Adam bhai
That is the problem only BLIND MAN can see the truth of Syedi Muffadal but NON BLIND people are not able to see it.

[voice]

The big question is that if London video nass was available as a private family affair than why the daughter in law of SMS and QJ left there husbands and went to SKQ ?

Were they unaware of this video? If yes then what it means to be a private family affair?

Its a saying that, " 1 jhooth ko chipane ke liye 100 bolna padte he", I think this SMS lobby has crossed 100 mark to cover up there false claim.

[Sufi monk]

those great ladies must be knowing much more about muffy gang's dirty games and this is the only reason they decided to elope.

[yuzarsif]

in Audio: SMB is speaking
in Video: SMB Not speaking a word..
why they didn't took the video when SMB Spoke? it is not a big deal to take a video in the age of a Smart phone. then why such a important announcement is recorded in audio only..

[suleman]

Observations on seeing video......

This is NOT Muqaddas Syedna Burhanuddin!!
Points to note:
The person portraying Syedna cannot play his part well enough.
a) His actions are of someone more fitter than one who's gone through a stroke few days ago.
b) The hunch that Syedna had developed due to old age in latter years is clearly not to be seen...this person is sitting pretty much upright and not bent.
c) This person's nose is not that of Muqaddas Syedna.
d) How come we don't see any Dr's or Nurses. Was he not monitored 24/7 in the ICU.
e) This in no way looks like an ICU room. We need to get the photos of the ICU rooms at Bupa Cromwell Hospital where I believe Muqaddas Syedna was admitted.
f ) MS was supposed to have reached the Hospital after praying magrib namaaz....this looks like broad daylight time to me.
g) Conveniently certain parts of the video are pixel 'blocked'.