Misaq to MS or KQ: A survey

[alam]

Think for yourself
You must be living in a bubble to be free from MS. DON'T ASSUME that everyone pushed out of comfort zone is "invigorated" as you so pompously assume. People have different life circumstances, temperaments, tolerances, resistances, economics and social/family ties. Look at events unfolding in Mumbai in raudat Tahera, the mohallas, where ones very survival is at stake. Have you gone to raudat Tahera lately, chanting SKQ zindabad

I wonder if the tables are turned, and SKQ was the popular leader along with power, money, and the masses behind him, how open and tolerant he would be of dissenting voices. He is not even open to being questioned - all he wants now is for people to loudly proclaim him as 53 rd dai, and die in his glory. What about the families that fall apart? Not all families have the means and resources to escape to USA OR other western countries, like his own has.

I think it is wrong for SKQ to expect people to renounce their families to join his Dawat.

Sometimes the SKQ camp smells no different from SMS abdes.

[Habeel]

Alam bhai, I agree with you but its also a true that if someone believes with conviction gets to make a breakthrough by overpowering the circumstances. It is challenging and requires courage to face consequences.

[alam]

Habeelbhai
This is not about "requiring courage to face consequences". It's not about lacking something. For some that might be the issue.
Consider this: would a faith in a certain religion require you to embrace your family or leave your family? Would it encourage divorce where spouses may be of different faith or would it create a noble space that quite naturally holds in kind respect the very private and personal faith of their family and loved ones, friends, neighbors and. Community at large?

That is the reason I am questioning the SKQ camp about their wisdom in provoking more suffering in the Bohras than is necessary, by their closest followers using tactics that smell no different from mainstream bohra tactics that are oppressive and manipulative.
That's all.

[think_for_yourself]

Think for yourself
You must be living in a bubble to be free from MS. DON'T ASSUME that everyone pushed out of comfort zone is "invigorated" as you so pompously assume. People have different life circumstances, temperaments, tolerances, resistances, economics and social/family ties. Look at events unfolding in Mumbai in raudat Tahera, the mohallas, where ones very survival is at stake. Have you gone to raudat Tahera lately, chanting SKQ zindabad

I wonder if the tables are turned, and SKQ was the popular leader along with power, money, and the masses behind him, how open and tolerant he would be of dissenting voices. He is not even open to being questioned - all he wants now is for people to loudly proclaim him as 53 rd dai, and die in his glory. What about the families that fall apart? Not all families have the means and resources to escape to USA OR other western countries, like his own has.

I think it is wrong for SKQ to expect people to renounce their families to join his Dawat.

Sometimes the SKQ camp smells no different from SMS abdes.

I agree it is a hard thing! It is all about how you look at it. Of course we lost 90% of our contacts in one day! Of course many of our dearest family do not speak to us any more. Of course some who we considered our dearest friends have stopped calling. Of course our livelihood was impacted. However you either view adversity as an opportunity or as a setback and my immediate family and I have embraced it and seen an opportunity for rejuvenation in every situation. We have the strength of our conviction behind us and the energy of great distaste for all that was being promoted by Mufaddal Saifuddin. That energy has pushed us forward. I am aware of some even in Mohallas in Mumbai who have taken a stand openly.

We are people with conviction that the Mazoon of Syedna Burhanuddin speaks the truth and he has been mentored to lead the people. The other guy is fumbling at every step and back peddaling on every stance. If you have conviction you stand proud and come out in the open. If you do not have conviction you let the masses decide for you. SKQ is only asking that you live a life of conviction. And as far as whether he and his followers would behave differently if they were in a majority position: You already have proof. Look at the focus of his dawat so far. It is ilm and ibadat. Have you heard a single lanat? Have you heard distasteful language? I think actions are speaking far louder than words these days.

[think_for_yourself]

Habeelbhai
This is not about "requiring courage to face consequences". It's not about lacking something. For some that might be the issue.
Consider this: would a faith in a certain religion require you to embrace your family or leave your family? Would it encourage divorce where spouses may be of different faith or would it create a noble space that quite naturally holds in kind respect the very private and personal faith of their family and loved ones, friends, neighbors and. Community at large?

That is the reason I am questioning the SKQ camp about their wisdom in provoking more suffering in the Bohras than is necessary, by their closest followers using tactics that smell no different from mainstream bohra tactics that are oppressive and manipulative.
That's all.

Alambhai, I do not know of one incident where SKQ has encouraged divorce when the husband and wife are of opposite views. He has in fact encouraged them to stay together. This supreme sacrifice has only been given by his own daughters and grand children of their own volition.

The travesty would have been to not speak up! As a reformist you should laud him his efforts! This short term pain is needed to wake people up to what they have become!

[alam]

Alambhai, I do not know of one incident where SKQ has encouraged divorce when the husband and wife are of opposite views.He has in fact encouraged them to Stay together

Think- for yourself. Unless you are physically near SKQ's side 24/7, or you claim to be Miss know-it-all, I happen to have my sources and contacts and know differently.

Think_for_yourself wrote: As a reformist you should laud him his efforts!

Frst of all, I am a Dawoodi Bohra, not a "reformist" in the usual sense. . And yes, I am as much a reformist as you are, in as much as you and I may be open to change, and invested in bringing justice and peace in our community. My being or not being a reformist has nothing to do with this, so forget the labeling that only puts us more in a box and a soup than we already are. If you read my posts, it will become clear that I do laud SKQ's efforts. A lot. More than that my bottomline position is the well-being of our brothers and sisters, and maintaining a sense of integrity in the process. That said, I also don't hold SKQ out to be a panacea of all evils that has beset has our Dawoodi Bohra community for the last 100 years. And for 50 years, mazoons saheb chose to be silent, and tolerated these evils and oppressions. It was indeed, as some might say a "Noble Silence". Hmmm? And now that SKQ has decided to speak up, after 50 years of silence, we are to just simply follow the dictum as you say

"The travesty would have been to not speak up!"

It took SKQ 50 years to speak up. ( And yes, I do know of the YN conspiracy as fact).

Don't you people who are ardent devotees of SKQ get it? Don't you realize that this forum has thousands of readers, and a few dozen or so writers (including myself) who never existed on this forum 1 year ago? People have already started "speaking up" in their own way.
Don't you get it that there a lot of people who are alive and well in their faith - in getting solace From SKQ and the symbolic hope he provides for freedom from oppression? This is their noble silence. Their silent protest and sympathy is louder than your speaking up, I dare say. So stop patronizing and get real, lady, and do not Judge like the brainwashed Mufaddalis do. You will only turn readers away the more self- righteous you get.

[think_for_yourself]

Perhaps I should have worded it thus: I know of at least 6 instances (relatives) when the spouse who supported SKQ has been asked to be patient and try to make it work. I thought it was sound advice. In 3 cases the other spouse came around and both husband and wife are with SKQ. Neither you nor I are offering SKQ as a panacea. However in this world of inaction, one person, taking that one step towards change albeit always at a high cost, can do more than the silent support of a thousand. The silent thousand will still pay MS their waajebaat, listen to bayans of his aamils, count among his supporters and in the process add to the strength of the system they are dissatisfied with. I live this story every day. In the past months, every time I speak to sympathetic people who have given Misaq to MS for social reasons( these are people who call us, run into us in stores, or visit us) they offer little more than words of support and excuses for inaction. And their inaction is their prerogative. However if they believe that they are helping change happen only by writing on this forum or reading it,or being silently sympathetic while being in Misaq of MS, they are sadly mistaken.
SKQ may not be a panacea but he is smart and he realizes that he has the support of people who are disgruntled with the current money grabbing, character deficient administration. He is not likely to put anything similar in place. However, I don't believe that he will compromise on the doctrine or the power that it confers on the Dai. I have witnessed utmost integrity in the behavior of his family, his own self and in the people he surrounds himself with. I took a leap of faith based on that and my certainty that he would not lie. If will be more careful not to let my certainty that is based on years of interaction with them and observation of them, come across as self righteousness.

[UnhappyBohra]

^
I am one of the silent thousand bound to inaction. However I will do my bit by way of a measly wajebaat as will the others in the back rows.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

i agree with what Alam says below. And this is the question that a lot of my relatives and friends ask: Where was SKQ saheb for the past 50 years when all these excesses were happening in our community? Why did he not speak up then? Or did he privately? I don't know. And many also tell me: He benefited from the system, and he is now asking us to put all on the line for him.

A reply from some folks on why SKQ saheb did not speak up about all the going ons in the community would be appreciated. Or did he? As the guy Husain Heptullah unintentionally led to in this speech?

I hope that the SKQ saheb camp is patient. I applaud their efforts, but understand that it took them 50 years, and we never knew/heard much from them for the last 10-20 years, and now they are asking us to suddenly put all family relations and friendship at stake.

I talk to several friends/family asking them to consider SKQ. And in talking to many friends the above is one of the push-back that I get. The another more cynical one is: It is not clear that they are very different from the SMS camp; both are doing it for power and money. [I just don't beleive that SKQ is doing it for money; for power, possibly, money, unlikely.] I am just using this forum to convey what some people are saying

Frst of all, I am a Dawoodi Bohra, not a "reformist" in the usual sense. . And yes, I am as much a reformist as you are, in as much as you and I may be open to change, and invested in bringing justice and peace in our community. My being or not being a reformist has nothing to do with this, so forget the labeling that only puts us more in a box and a soup than we already are. If you read my posts, it will become clear that I do laud SKQ's efforts. A lot. More than that my bottomline position is the well-being of our brothers and sisters, and maintaining a sense of integrity in the process. That said, I also don't hold SKQ out to be a panacea of all evils that has beset has our Dawoodi Bohra community for the last 100 years. And for 50 years, mazoons saheb chose to be silent, and tolerated these evils and oppressions. It was indeed, as some might say a "Noble Silence". Hmmm? And now that SKQ has decided to speak up, after 50 years of silence, we are to just simply follow the dictum as you say

"The travesty would have been to not speak up!"

It took SKQ 50 years to speak up. ( And yes, I do know of the YN conspiracy as fact).

Don't you people who are ardent devotees of SKQ get it? Don't you realize that this forum has thousands of readers, and a few dozen or so writers (including myself) who never existed on this forum 1 year ago? People have already started "speaking up" in their own way.

Don't you get it that there a lot of people who are alive and well in their faith - in getting solace From SKQ and the symbolic hope he provides for freedom from oppression? This is their noble silence. Their silent protest and sympathy is louder than your speaking up, I dare say. So stop patronizing and get real, lady, and do not Judge like the brainwashed Mufaddalis do. You will only turn readers away the more self- righteous you get.

[/quote]

[alam]

However in this world of inaction, one person, taking that one step towards change albeit always at a high cost, can do more than the silent support of a thousand.

This is not a contest, nor a competition. We are dealing with social change, a revolution, in a society where it's residents are habituated to being loyal followers. The residents of our community have no recent experience in their sociobiological makeup or ancestry to revolt, and step and speak up publicly as you proclaim (exception of a tiny handful of reformists and SKQ supporters). There are all kinds of residents in a society - So this kind of comparison and even labeling "inaction" only serves to further put down those in the community who are indeed very disgruntled and oppressed. So don't add further insult to injury. What you call "inaction" of today is merely a seed - brewing and growing, for action for tomorrow. Different seeds breed and grow differently. That is just part of nature and how people differ.
You should know that even SKQ camp is aware of the many many thousands of silent supporters who have secretly accepted him as 53rd Dai. And that's why SKQ himself is also suffering and feeling the turmoil, because I do believe he genuinely cares for the Mumineen. He has seen the turmoil of those secret and silent supporters. SKQ is also human.

The silent thousand will still pay MS their waajebaat, listen to bayans of his aamils, count among his supporters and in the process add to the strength of the system they are dissatisfied with. I live this story every day. In the past months, every time I speak to sympathetic people who have given Misaq to MS for social reasons( these are people who call us, run into us in stores, or visit us) they offer little more than words of support and excuses for inaction. And their inaction is their prerogative

Are you the Imam? Do you claim to know all the 1000 people, and everything they are likely to do in the future? Don't jump to conclusions on the basis of a handful of people you run into in your community, or try to predict the future.

However if they believe that they are helping change happen only by writing on this forum or reading it,or being silently sympathetic while being in Misaq of MS, they are sadly mistaken.

Again, we are talking about social revolution, which is happening at all levels for everyone. It is not a narrow minded, single methodology, single project approach. People are getting educated, informed with open discussion, and ideas and ideology dissected. We are beginning to question a lot. The markers of change in a society are not always in numbers, power, money. It is multifaceted. 6 months is all its been. And it took SKQ sons 6 months to step out and come to raudat Tahera? I could either criticize them for taking so long, or applaud them when they do. I make the choice of applauding them. So lady, my sis, don't be so disgruntled. I applaud you for coming out in public and risking all and 90% of your family and friends. It is indeed a profound trauma and loss. And it can't be easy, and it must be lonely. And so it is, for SKQ family and many of their supporters. I applaud them all.

All I am saying that we need to be aware of how our words and writing come across to others, and be aware and learn from our own communications - even if it is on this forum, for the world to see.

I have witnessed utmost integrity in the behavior of his family, his own self and in the people he surrounds himself with. I took a leap of faith based on that and my certainty that he would not lie. If will be more careful not to let my certainty that is based on years of interaction with them and observation of them, come across as self righteousness.

I concur with you on this.

[think_for_yourself]

However in this world of inaction, one person, taking that one step towards change albeit always at a high cost, can do more than the silent support of a thousand.

This is not a contest, nor a competition. We are dealing with social change, a revolution, in a society where it's residents are habituated to being loyal followers. The residents of our community have no recent experience in their sociobiological makeup or ancestry to revolt, and step and speak up publicly as you proclaim (exception of a tiny handful of reformists and SKQ supporters). There are all kinds of residents in a society - So this kind of comparison and even labeling "inaction" only serves to further put down those in the community who are indeed very disgruntled and oppressed. So don't add further insult to injury. What you call "inaction" of today is merely a seed - brewing and growing, for action for tomorrow. Different seeds breed and grow differently. That is just part of nature and how people differ.
You should know that even SKQ camp is aware of the many many thousands of silent supporters who have secretly accepted him as 53rd Dai. And that's why SKQ himself is also suffering and feeling the turmoil, because I do believe he genuinely cares for the Mumineen. He has seen the turmoil of those secret and silent supporters. SKQ is also human.

The silent thousand will still pay MS their waajebaat, listen to bayans of his aamils, count among his supporters and in the process add to the strength of the system they are dissatisfied with. I live this story every day. In the past months, every time I speak to sympathetic people who have given Misaq to MS for social reasons( these are people who call us, run into us in stores, or visit us) they offer little more than words of support and excuses for inaction. And their inaction is their prerogative

Are you the Imam? Do you claim to know all the 1000 people, and everything they are likely to do in the future? Don't jump to conclusions on the basis of a handful of people you run into in your community, or try to predict the future.

However if they believe that they are helping change happen only by writing on this forum or reading it,or being silently sympathetic while being in Misaq of MS, they are sadly mistaken.

Again, we are talking about social revolution, which is happening at all levels for everyone. It is not a narrow minded, single methodology, single project approach. People are getting educated, informed with open discussion, and ideas and ideology dissected. We are beginning to question a lot. The markers of change in a society are not always in numbers, power, money. It is multifaceted. 6 months is all its been. And it took SKQ sons 6 months to step out and come to raudat Tahera? I could either criticize them for taking so long, or applaud them when they do. I make the choice of applauding them. So lady, my sis, don't be so disgruntled. I applaud you for coming out in public and risking all and 90% of your family and friends. It is indeed a profound trauma and loss. And it can't be easy, and it must be lonely. And so it is, for SKQ family and many of their supporters. I applaud them all.

All I am saying that we need to be aware of how our words and writing come across to others, and be aware and learn from our own communications - even if it is on this forum, for the world to see.

I have witnessed utmost integrity in the behavior of his family, his own self and in the people he surrounds himself with. I took a leap of faith based on that and my certainty that he would not lie. If will be more careful not to let my certainty that is based on years of interaction with them and observation of them, come across as self righteousness.

I concur with you on this.

Conceded. I did get on my high horse a bit And I am not the Imam

Also, I was not trying to predict the future. I was speaking about THIS year! All the moaning, whining thousands are still going to get counted among MS supporters THIS year.

[mumin4mumin]

Folks, we at http://www.mumineens.com have been working hard to spread the message for taking the survey https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/myvoiceasamumin and are in a dilemmna. We are receiving anywhere from 0-10 respondents daily who are taking the survey since we first launched it. Currently, although we have around 600 respondents, we are really wanting to get a representative sample before analyzing the results. But its been 5 months the survey is on, and therefore there is also a compelling need to publish what we have.

If anyone has relevant opinions and perspectives to offer for this dilemma, kindly share. Thank You.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

This is not a contest, nor a competition. We are dealing with social change, a revolution, in a society where it's residents are habituated to being loyal followers. The residents of our community have no recent experience in their sociobiological makeup or ancestry to revolt, and step and speak up publicly as you proclaim (exception of a tiny handful of reformists and SKQ supporters). There are all kinds of residents in a society - So this kind of comparison and even labeling "inaction" only serves to further put down those in the community who are indeed very disgruntled and oppressed. So don't add further insult to injury. What you call "inaction" of today is merely a seed - brewing and growing, for action for tomorrow. Different seeds breed and grow differently. That is just part of nature and how people differ.
You should know that even SKQ camp is aware of the many many thousands of silent supporters who have secretly accepted him as 53rd Dai. And that's why SKQ himself is also suffering and feeling the turmoil, because I do believe he genuinely cares for the Mumineen. He has seen the turmoil of those secret and silent supporters. SKQ is also human.
Are you the Imam? Do you claim to know all the 1000 people, and everything they are likely to do in the future? Don't jump to conclusions on the basis of a handful of people you run into in your community, or try to predict the future.
Again, we are talking about social revolution, which is happening at all levels for everyone. It is not a narrow minded, single methodology, single project approach. People are getting educated, informed with open discussion, and ideas and ideology dissected. We are beginning to question a lot. The markers of change in a society are not always in numbers, power, money. It is multifaceted. 6 months is all its been. And it took SKQ sons 6 months to step out and come to raudat Tahera? I could either criticize them for taking so long, or applaud them when they do. I make the choice of applauding them. So lady, my sis, don't be so disgruntled. I applaud you for coming out in public and risking all and 90% of your family and friends. It is indeed a profound trauma and loss. And it can't be easy, and it must be lonely. And so it is, for SKQ family and many of their supporters. I applaud them all.

All I am saying that we need to be aware of how our words and writing come across to others, and be aware and learn from our own communications - even if it is on this forum, for the world to see.
I concur with you on this.

Conceded. I did get on my high horse a bit And I am not the Imam

Also, I was not trying to predict the future. I was speaking about THIS year! All the moaning, whining thousands are still going to get counted among MS supporters THIS year.

2 points: thin_for_yourself, You say you have know SKQ for many years and you took that leap. Please understand that those of us who did not know anything about SKQ, give us some time. We are just learning about him post January 17th. And I hope that SKQ saheb's family understands that and has patience too with the mumineens. Some will Inshallah come around.

2nd point: You say that a lot of people will be counted as SMS Bohras this Ramadan. Is there any way around? Should SKQ saheb tell the courts, if it comes to that, to give him the podium for a few years, so that he can reach out to the community, and then have a secret ballot to decide the respective strength? After all, there should be no compulsion in religion, and that is how we vote in India? Just a wild idea, but may be others on this forum can suggest better and more workable ideas.

[tasneempati]

For how long position of Mazoon will be kept empty ?
There are rumors of tussel between Dr Quaid Joher BS & Malek Ul Ashter BS in SMS camp.
But what's going on in Dawedaar's camp ?

[Dr Fatema]

By now it is clear that 90% + bohras are with SMS.
SKQ is left with less than 10%.

[DisillusionedDB]

By now it is clear that 90% + bohras are with SMS.
SKQ is left with less than 10%.

90% with fear factor and the fact that he controls the masjids, mazaars, qabrastans etc. Remove the fear and the institutional ownerships, then 90% are with SKQ.

[humanbeing]

90% with fear factor and the fact that he controls the masjids, mazaars, qabrastans etc. Remove the fear and the institutional ownerships, then 90% are with SKQ.

IMO, its not even fear, its Institutional ownership and convenient time consuming practices with “jaman” ..

[tasneempati]

Bhai DCP both SMS & SKQ belongs to same family. No difference.

i agree with what Alam says below. And this is the question that a lot of my relatives and friends ask: Where was SKQ saheb for the past 50 years when all these excesses were happening in our community? Why did he not speak up then? Or did he privately? I don't know. And many also tell me: He benefited from the system, and he is now asking us to put all on the line for him.

A reply from some folks on why SKQ saheb did not speak up about all the going ons in the community would be appreciated. Or did he? As the guy Husain Heptullah unintentionally led to in this speech?

I hope that the SKQ saheb camp is patient. I applaud their efforts, but understand that it took them 50 years, and we never knew/heard much from them for the last 10-20 years, and now they are asking us to suddenly put all family relations and friendship at stake.

I talk to several friends/family asking them to consider SKQ. And in talking to many friends the above is one of the push-back that I get. The another more cynical one is: It is not clear that they are very different from the SMS camp; both are doing it for power and money. [I just don't beleive that SKQ is doing it for money; for power, possibly, money, unlikely.] I am just using this forum to convey what some people are saying

Frst of all, I am a Dawoodi Bohra, not a "reformist" in the usual sense. . And yes, I am as much a reformist as you are, in as much as you and I may be open to change, and invested in bringing justice and peace in our community. My being or not being a reformist has nothing to do with this, so forget the labeling that only puts us more in a box and a soup than we already are. If you read my posts, it will become clear that I do laud SKQ's efforts. A lot. More than that my bottomline position is the well-being of our brothers and sisters, and maintaining a sense of integrity in the process. That said, I also don't hold SKQ out to be a panacea of all evils that has beset has our Dawoodi Bohra community for the last 100 years. And for 50 years, mazoons saheb chose to be silent, and tolerated these evils and oppressions. It was indeed, as some might say a "Noble Silence". Hmmm? And now that SKQ has decided to speak up, after 50 years of silence, we are to just simply follow the dictum as you say It took SKQ 50 years to speak up. ( And yes, I do know of the YN conspiracy as fact).

Don't you people who are ardent devotees of SKQ get it? Don't you realize that this forum has thousands of readers, and a few dozen or so writers (including myself) who never existed on this forum 1 year ago? People have already started "speaking up" in their own way.

Don't you get it that there a lot of people who are alive and well in their faith - in getting solace From SKQ and the symbolic hope he provides for freedom from oppression? This is their noble silence. Their silent protest and sympathy is louder than your speaking up, I dare say. So stop patronizing and get real, lady, and do not Judge like the brainwashed Mufaddalis do. You will only turn readers away the more self- righteous you get.

[/quote]

[fiate2000]

Totaly agree with tasneem pati, they all stem from the same root. SKQ is only pulling a nice face to gain mass symapthy. MArk my word, the moment he has achieved his goal, his true colors are going to evolve. however by then it will be too late (as the abdes will get embroiled once again in the same situation as that with SMS)


[quote="tasneempati"]Bhai DCP both SMS & SKQ belongs to same family. No difference.
[quote="dal-chaval-palidu"]i agree with what Alam says below. And this is the question that a lot of my relatives and friends ask: Where was SKQ saheb for the past 50 years when all these excesses were happening in our community? Why did he not speak up then? Or did he privately? I don't know. And many also tell me: He benefited from the system, and he is now asking us to put all on the line for him.
s, I do know of the YN conspiracy as fact).

[mumin4mumin]

On topic of misaaq survey
http://www.mumineens.com/misaaq-given-or-not/

Or download entire PDF doc to view results question by question
http://www.mumineens.com/wp-content/upl ... 140902.pdf

Or see quick summary of major finding
http://www.mumineens.com/core-findings/

[UnhappyBohra]

The Mumbai Mirror article about the survey is their second most commented article of all time! Many bright and interesting women from all over the world are voicing their discontent with and disdain of MS. My particular faves are Khadija aunty, Tasneem and Nazneen. Way to go behno!